Official SWF Tier List v8

[Supermodel From Paris]

This isn't a popular opinion but I've been saying forever that PS1 is cancer.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

PS1 is the best stage ever and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Z'zgashi]

PS2 is best stage, I can Bowsercide people and still live.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

PS2 is best stage, I can Bowsercide people and still live.

Ganoncide is the best -cide ever and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Ghostbone]

Stage hazards. No. Also, reflectors apply to, what, about 1/8th of the cast? That aspect makes the stage WORSE for competitive play, not better...



Well put. "It destroys the whole footsies/neutral game of Brawl, and imo isn't good for the game." applies to Mario Bros. too though...

To clear things up, I don't think Mario Bros. should actually be legal, I'm trying to show how arguments commonly used to support Rainbow Cruise or Norfair, etc. also apply to Mario Bros.

Like if Delta-Cod's going to go out and say that Big Blue is a possibly viable stage despite the fact the cars move around randomly and are often out of vision, I'd fully expect him to support Mario Bros.'s legality.

 

[DeLux]

Delux, can I live in your region plz. Your stagelist sounds fun.

If and only if:

1. We follow the LGL
2. We counter pick Delfino and Pit Yoshi attack doubles

Just out of curiosity, do we know for a fact that cars on Big Blue are actually random?

 

[Delta-cod]

If and only if:

1. We follow the LGL
2. We counter pick Delfino and Pit Yoshi attack doubles

Just out of curiosity, do we know for a fact that cars on Big Blue are actually random?

1. Okay, just make sure to show me what the LGL is before each set. =P
2. Oh god yes plz.

Also, from my limited experience playing on the stage, I don't think they're random. But I haven't played on the stage for a long enough match to see how it works in rotations.

To clear things up, I don't think Mario Bros. should actually be legal, I'm trying to show how arguments commonly used to support Rainbow Cruise or Norfair, etc. also apply to Mario Bros.

Like if Delta-Cod's going to go out and say that Big Blue is a possibly viable stage despite the fact the cars move around randomly and are often out of vision, I'd fully expect him to support Mario Bros.'s legality.

You're denying the fact that Mario Bros. has a circle camp and isn't about meaningful interaction with your opponent, but rather the hazards. I LOVE Mario Bros, lol. I've only lost one match on it in the history of ever. But that doesn't mean it isn't degenerate. I'm just good at abusing the defining strategy of that stage.

If you can show me that Rainbow Cruise and Norfair have defining strategies that are essentially the only valid tactic on those stages, go for it. Kudos if those strategies don't involve players trying to space around each other and beat their opponents in stage positioning/at neutral.

Also, as I said above, can you show me that Big Blue's cars are random? I don't think they are. I'm familiar with like, the first 40 seconds of the layout, and it's the same every time.

 

[Sinister Slush]

All this talk on stages that're banned being legal and nobody brings up Port Town Aero Dive.
I like that stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Neither YI:M was mentioned.
And this is like the 106746557th time I have in this and the Tier List v7 discussion threads....

 

[Ghostbone]

You're denying the fact that Mario Bros. has a circle camp and isn't about meaningful interaction with your opponent, but rather the hazards. I LOVE Mario Bros, lol. I've only lost one match on it in the history of ever. But that doesn't mean it isn't degenerate. I'm just good at abusing the defining strategy of that stage.

I'll MM you $100, you try to time me out on Mario Bros.
Circle camping is impossible on the stage (maybe in extreme matchups like Fox vs Ganon? idk)

Like the thing about circle camping is, you run away and camp, giving up any stage control, which is really important when that lets your opponent get full control of the hazards and set them up however they want. It's just a really bad idea.

If you can show me that Rainbow Cruise and Norfair have defining strategies that are essentially the only valid tactic on those stages, go for it. Kudos if those strategies don't involve players trying to space around each other and beat their opponents in stage positioning/at neutral.

You say Mario Bros. isn't about meaningful interaction with your opponent, and I'd say that similarly, Rainbow Cruise is barely about actually outplaying your opponent and more about waiting for the stage to put them in unfavourable positions.
That's the strategy of rainbow cruise, abuse your mobility, make the stage force your opponent to approach. The viable characters on the stage are ones with great mobility (ROB, Pit, Wario, G&W, etc.) who can deal with those forced disadvantages better.

Like Rainbow Cruise isn't so much about giving some characters advantages, it's more about limiting everyone's options and those that can handle that better do better on the stage (lol MK, never has to commit to anything). Which is why I feel it's not a good competitive stage.

Also, as I said above, can you show me that Big Blue's cars are random? I don't think they are. I'm familiar with like, the first 40 seconds of the layout, and it's the same every time.

Play on the stage yourself a few times, rofl, no I don't have any vids showing the cars are random, but they definitely are to some degree. (iirc when the front car goes off the screen and when another car comes from the back is random, and the camera thing that moves around the stage appears in random intervals and stuff)

If you want, go test the stage, make a post about the mechanics and how it works, and if it's all found to be non-random you can come back and I'll admit I was wrong.

All this talk on stages that're banned being legal and nobody brings up Port Town Aero Dive.
I like that stage.

PTAD is a terrible stage
But I'd counterpick it every game because I can predict the cars with like 95% accuracy and everyone else has no experience on it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can we make Warioware legal for the lulz please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eaqB89H4saY&t=108

 

[Delta-cod]

SFP, that clip is hilarious. Mindgamesssssssssss

I'll MM you $100, you try to time me out on Mario Bros.
Circle camping is impossible on the stage (maybe in extreme matchups like Fox vs Ganon? idk)

Like the thing about circle camping is, you run away and camp, giving up any stage control, which is really important when that lets your opponent get full control of the hazards and set them up however they want. It's just a really bad idea.

I would totally MM you for $100 dollars if my win condition wasn't to time you out. You could SD your stocks or play horribly and still win lol.

The hazards on their own don't do ANYTHING. I can friggin' land on them with softhit of Yoshi's Nair and be safe. They are ONLY dangerous when thrown by other players. That's when they do ~30 damage plus insane knockback.

While the point of circle camping is usually to run the timer, I'd just use it to force you to commit to some sort of approach, and then I'd bean you with a koopa shell.

You say Mario Bros. isn't about meaningful interaction with your opponent, and I'd say that similarly, Rainbow Cruise is barely about actually outplaying your opponent and more about waiting for the stage to put them in unfavourable positions.
That's the strategy of rainbow cruise, abuse your mobility, make the stage force your opponent to approach. The viable characters on the stage are ones with great mobility (ROB, Pit, Wario, G&W, etc.) who can deal with those forced disadvantages better.

Like Rainbow Cruise isn't so much about giving some characters advantages, it's more about limiting everyone's options and those that can handle that better do better on the stage. Which is why I feel it's not a good competitive stage.

Rainbow Cruise is all about interacting with your opponent. This interaction comes through stage control, which comes with stage knowledge and character ability. How am I going to force my opponent to put himself into the bad position of being above me on the vertical scroll after the ship crashes if I'm not exerting some pressure to force him up first, or hitting him up there in the first place? Sure, characters' own limitations might force them to focus on platforming earlier in the scroll than they do others (like Snake, with his poor jumps), but I'm not arguing RC be a neutral stage. It's a CP because it gives mobile characters an advantage over ones with low mobility. The stage forces no disadvantage against the characters. The opponents' usage of the stage does.

And no, Mario Bros. is not like this at all. Effective Mario Bros. strategy is "Get koopa shell/crab > throw projectile at enemy > immediately run away after throwing in fear of reflection or retaliation > repeat".

Play on the stage yourself a few times, rofl, no I don't have any vids showing the cars are random, but they definitely are to some degree. (iirc when the front car goes off the screen and when another car comes from the back is random, and the camera thing that moves around the stage appears in random intervals and stuff)

If you want, go test the stage, make a post about the mechanics and how it works, and if it's all found to be non-random you can come back and I'll admit I was wrong.

Sorry, but I'm not about to put forth that much effort for you, considering that my reward (you being wrong/me being right) means absolutely nothing to me. If you were a TO, and if I were to do this and show that the stage is not appreciably random, and in doing so, you agreed to host this stage in all your rulesets in the future, I would do this in a heartbeat. But as is? **** no.

PTAD is a terrible stage
But I'd counterpick it every game because I can predict the cars with like 95% accuracy and everyone else has no experience on it.

MM me on PTAD.

 

[Ghostbone]

I would totally MM you for $100 dollars if my win condition wasn't to time you out. You could SD your stocks or play horribly and still win lol.

Yea I guess it'd be hard to make a good win condition.

The hazards on their own don't do ANYTHING. I can friggin' land on them with softhit of Yoshi's Nair and be safe. They are ONLY dangerous when thrown by other players. That's when they do ~30 damage plus insane knockback.

Yea because it's not like the other player can punish your nair with a hazard
Not at all.

While the point of circle camping is usually to run the timer, I'd just use it to force you to commit to some sort of approach, and then I'd bean you with a koopa shell.

....Circle camping isn't forcing an approach
Circle camping is giving your opponent free reign to do whatever they want while you avoid them, rofl.

Rainbow Cruise is all about interacting with your opponent. This interaction comes through stage control, which comes with stage knowledge and character ability.

We can assume everyone knows the stage, it's purely character ability.

How am I going to force my opponent to put himself into the bad position of being above me on the vertical scroll after the ship crashes if I'm not exerting some pressure to force him up first, or hitting him up there in the first place?

You...wait? It's pretty simple
That Snake/Diddy/ZSS/whoever has to jump some time, you don't have to force him to do anything, the stage does it for you.

Sure, characters' own limitations might force them to focus on platforming earlier in the scroll than they do others (like Snake, with his poor jumps), but I'm not arguing RC be a neutral stage. It's a CP because it gives mobile characters an advantage over ones with low mobility. The stage forces no disadvantage against the characters. The opponents' usage of the stage does.

"The stage forces no disadvantage against the characters"
Are you serious
Forcing people to commit to jumps/double jumps and have to shield easy sharking is a huge disadvantage.
Sure it's because the opponent's usage of the stage, but that's just like how Temple's only broken when you have another player using it to circle camp. That's not a valid argument rofl.

And no, Mario Bros. is not like this at all. Effective Mario Bros. strategy is "Get koopa shell/crab > throw projectile at enemy > immediately run away after throwing in fear of reflection or retaliation > repeat".

Idk man, Hazards are a pretty linear projectile to avoid without any other pressure from the opponent/other hazards walking at you (which are predictable, clearly legit right?)

Sorry, but I'm not about to put forth that much effort for you, considering that my reward (you being wrong/me being right) means absolutely nothing to me. If you were a TO, and if I were to do this and show that the stage is not appreciably random, and in doing so, you agreed to host this stage in all your rulesets in the future, I would do this in a heartbeat. But as is? **** no.

Then you have no evidence.
I mean I technically don't have any evidence either, so I guess we'll stick with the status quo of Big blue being a terrible competitive stage

MM me on PTAD.

Come to Australia

WarioWare is the best stage ever and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise

I'm sensing a pattern here

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

WarioWare is the best stage ever and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise

 

[Delta-cod]

Yea because it's not like the other player can punish your nair with a hazard
Not at all.

You realize Yoshi's Nair has like, no landing lag, right? You're not punishing anything, lol. I'd have plenty of mobility to avoid any hazard traps anyways, since all they do is walk around and I'm practically the most mobile character in the game.

....Circle camping isn't forcing an approach
Circle camping is giving your opponent free reign to do whatever they want while you avoid them, rofl.

Timers.

You...wait? It's pretty simple
That Snake/Diddy/ZSS/whoever has to jump some time, you don't have to force him to do anything, the stage does it for you.

What if the Snake/Diddy/ZSS forces you to jump first?

"The stage forces no disadvantage against the characters"
Are you serious
Forcing people to commit to jumps/double jumps and have to shield easy sharking is a huge disadvantage.
Sure it's because the opponent's usage of the stage, but that's just like how Temple's only broken when you have another player using it to circle camp. That's not a valid argument rofl.

Addressed above. You can still force the opponent to jump first, even if the odds aren't in your favor since your less mobile character most likely needs to commit to jumping earlier than they do.

I agree with Temple, but Temple is also broken because of cave of life. Like, we're assuming people will do whatever they need to to win. Using the stage and your own pressure to force someone to jump isn't a broken strategy, lol.

Idk man, Hazards are a pretty linear projectile to avoid without any other pressure from the opponent/other hazards walking at you (which are predictable, clearly legit right?)

There are mindgames involved, considering you have to dodge or reflect the projectile, not block. Meaning if you panic spotdodge/roll/airdodge, you can just get beaned with the projectile in your end lag. That's the pressure. And you can always wait for the hazards to pressure your opponent anyways. Even if he chooses to deal with them, that's enough for you to peg 'em with a shell.

Then you have no evidence.
I mean I technically don't have any evidence either, so I guess we'll stick with the status quo of Big blue being a terrible competitive stage

The status quo is "people don't like Big Blue so it's banned", not "Big Blue is a terrible competitive stage". And nothing I can do will change people's tastes.

Come to Australia

Dat's far and I'm broke.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

"The stage forces no disadvantage against the characters"
Are you serious
Forcing people to commit to jumps/double jumps and have to shield easy sharking is a huge disadvantage.
Sure it's because the opponent's usage of the stage, but that's just like how Temple's only broken when you have another player using it to circle camp. That's not a valid argument rofl.
here

If peoples learned platform dropping from shield then there would be no isssue with this sharking on RC as much.

 

[DeLux]

If peoples learned platform dropping from shield then there would be no isssue with this sharking on RC as much.

Metaknight

 

[Loota]

If we're banning stages because there is a slight chance going through them, ban Smashville too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GetXSYzwJRI

 

[Ghostbone]

You realize Yoshi's Nair has like, no landing lag, right? You're not punishing anything, lol. I'd have plenty of mobility to avoid any hazard traps anyways, since all they do is walk around

they walk faster than you run/drift, and i can throw them at you...

I'm practically the most mobile character in the game.

Sonic and MK (and falcon?) disagree.

Timers.

8 minutes is a long time yo.

What if the Snake/Diddy/ZSS forces you to jump first?

I have superior mobility/aerial game, so I win.

Like if the floor of FD forced you to jump every 10 seconds, that would be incredibly stupid to deal with, and doesn't add any actual depth to the game, it just forces an action out of players.
That's what RC is like. (well RC is even worse than that)

I agree with Temple, but Temple is also broken because of cave of life. Like, we're assuming people will do whatever they need to to win. Using the stage and your own pressure to force someone to jump isn't a broken strategy, lol.

You clearly don't understand my point about temple.
The cave of life doesn't do anything until a player uses it to tech (or momentum cancels out of it).
Nothing about a stage is broken without players (unless a stage causes seizures or is too dark to see or something).
RC is the same, you can argue that it's not broken, it's just someone taking advantage of it, but that doesn't make sense to me because no stage is broken without someone taking advantage of it.

There are mindgames involved, considering you have to dodge or reflect the projectile, not block. Meaning if you panic spotdodge/roll/airdodge, you can just get beaned with the projectile in your end lag. That's the pressure. And you can always wait for the hazards to pressure your opponent anyways. Even if he chooses to deal with them, that's enough for you to peg 'em with a shell.

Yet above you were arguing that Yoshi could easily avoid them all forever?
Like
You're countering your own arguments for me.

The status quo is "people don't like Big Blue so it's banned", not "Big Blue is a terrible competitive stage". And nothing I can do will change people's tastes.

Hosting tournaments with it, collecting data showing it's non-random, and playing on it with people in friendlies would probably help.

But I think you'll find (and you know this) that people would still dislike it, but it's for the same reasons a lot of people dislike other moving camera stages (they're just more extreme on Big Blue).
But you could still show anyone that supports RC (or any moving camera stage), that they should also support Big Blue.

Dat's far and I'm broke.

Aussie beaches though.

 

[Delta-cod]

they walk faster than you run/drift, and i can throw them at you...

No they don't, unless you make them like, third stage of getting up. Which takes a long time to do.

Sonic and MK (and falcon?) disagree.

MK's only got good air speed while using a special or gliding. Sonic maybe. Falcon runs faster but moves through the air slower, and doesn't have good tools for altering his aerial momentum.

8 minutes is a long time yo.

No it's not. I'm totally ready.

I have superior mobility/aerial game, so I win.

Like if the floor of FD forced you to jump every 10 seconds, that would be incredibly stupid to deal with, and doesn't add any actual depth to the game, it just forces an action out of players.
That's what RC is like. (well RC is even worse than that)


You clearly don't understand my point about temple.
The cave of life doesn't do anything until a player uses it to tech (or momentum cancels out of it).
Nothing about a stage is broken without players (unless a stage causes seizures or is too dark to see or something).
RC is the same, you can argue that it's not broken, it's just someone taking advantage of it, but that doesn't make sense to me because no stage is broken without someone taking advantage of it.

I'm saying that RC isn't broken when it is used (except by arguably Metaknight). When players use Temple, the game is broken and breaks down into a massively degenerate strategy (circle camping). When players use RC, they exert pressure to force their opponent above them so they get positional advantage for about 1/4th the map. Wowza.

Yet above you were arguing that Yoshi could easily avoid them all forever?
Like
You're countering your own arguments for me.

Not specifically Yoshi. Me though.

Like, I'm not ever ever ever going to put myself into a position where I'm pressured into committing, causing me to get hit by a thrown shell or crab. It just won't happen. The circle is HUGE, and the thrown projectiles don't really get much travel-time, unless you throw it at the ground and kick it or something. Even if I need to jab away a crab, I'm likely half the map away from you, so good luck punishing a like, 5 frame duration move. Good players who know how to deal with the stage aren't going to get caught either, assuming they play a character with even average mobility (so not Ganon).

If you're actually trying to fight (different situation than me running away for 8 minutes), I'm just going to dribble the shell or whatever then throw it at you. Or drop > catch > Bair or something. Or literally wait for you to do something. But if you choose to just run away, you shouldn't ever get hit. If you do get hit and survive, you're screwed because you're stuck in a corner.

Hosting tournaments with it, collecting data showing it's non-random, and playing on it with people in friendlies would probably help.

But I think you'll find (and you know this) that people would still dislike it, but it's for the same reasons a lot of people dislike other moving camera stages (they're just more extreme on Big Blue).
But you could still show anyone that supports RC (or any moving camera stage), that they should also support Big Blue.

I'm not a TO, and I suspect that nobody would come to an event I randomly hosted that had Big Blue on it. Except maybe my close friends. But they'd probably try to persuade me to use a more accepted ruleset so I don't go -200 or something for venue fees.

I'm not going to put forth massive effort into breaking down Big Blue because nobody cares outside of this discussion, and it would make no impact on anything. Outside of like, Delux's region, all stagelists are shrinking to be like, 6-7 stages big. If we were still at the phase where RC/Brinstar were legal, or even just RC, I'd consider it. Maybe. But I know people's attitudes and reluctance to accept anything that isn't flat-and-plat, so I'm not going to waste my time.

Aussie beaches though.

Killer everythings exist in Australia tho. I dun wanna die. ;_;

 

[thrillagorilla]

Please bear with me, I have no idea how to multi-quote from multiple pages anymore.

So are you against Pokemon Stadium? They have non-permanent degenerate transformations.

As a competitively viable stage? Yes, I am against it. For use if the local tournament goers want to use it? No, I'm not against it. I will go on record stating I don't particularly like the stage though. This extends to Pokemon Stadium 2 also.

Mushroomy Kingdom has permanent walk offs, which is typically a problem with most people who create rulesets, but I'm still iffy on the matter of it being a reason to ban things. 1-1 could, if people were truly open minded, be a stage that could be legal. 1-2 is definitely out, though, because of the cave-of-life problem.

Forgive me, its been a LONG time since I've been on that stage. Is there a way to guarantee 1-1? I thought it was random selection. You could keep selecting it until you got the one you wanted I guess...

I digress. In terms of "Arbitrary Positional Advantage", there are no issues. Degenerate tactics such as blast zone camping can be a problem. I haven't given much thought into a solid argument for or against at the moment, but may do so later.

Big Blue is strange as well. I have very little high level play experience on that stage, but it's basically a stage that rewards aerial spacing characters heavily, since the ground is inconstant, small, and oddly laid out. Again, it COULD be a counterpick, if people truly wanted to incorporate as many stages as possible.

As for my own opinions on these stages, I would like to see high level play on these stages to see if it's degenerate or not. Looking at 1-1 and Big Blue, I can't say immediately that they are ban-worthy.

While I won't argue about 1-1 for now, if the cars are indeed lending a random element to Big Blue, it shouldn't be up for consideration due to my aforementioned argument.

You did, but I felt like elaborating on the point anyways. I didn't mean to make it look like you felt the point was valid or anything.

Its fine. Any person that thinks I was serious about starting position advantage being a reason to ban a stage needs to take the internet far less seriously. I am not an advocate for the internet being serious business.

I wasn't aware that it worked on a timer, but upon looking into it, it does. So you're right, there is no arbitrary advantage, unless you consider the random amount of time spent in the transition phase to give characters strong arbitrary advantages, namely chain grabbers.

As far as falling through the stage in shield stun is concerned, shield stun in this game is so little that you should be able to just get out of the situation if you react to it fast enough. Especially knowing how it happens. It's also a rare enough occurrence to not be a major factor. You can fall through PS1, too.

Any situation that could end in stock loss due to a stage should put the stage under heavy scrutiny. As in they shouldn't be legal. The stage is interrupting game-play. Here, let me give you an analogy using another game...

Imagine you were playing a game of chess. After twenty rounds, the tournament organizer comes up to your game and says to you " in two turns, all pawns on the board will be queens for one turn". Its game breaking, and even with a warning whoever gets to move first is heavily advantaged for no good reason since the change-over happened at random. The players are no longer simply fighting each other, they are fighting a temporary rules change for the game they may or may not have spent the last 20 or so turns preparing for. Translation? A potential loss of stock is worth banning a stage over, rarity be... well, you know the rest of the saying.

Note: I have won a set in tournament due to a player falling through PS1. I ended up getting third and that player went out the next round due to his mental state after the fact. I am willing to bet if I polled everyone on the boards who go to tournaments about how many times they have seen such instances determine games in tourney, the number would be MUCH higher than you are alluding to.

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/delfino-plaza-paths-transformation-rules.257415/

Delfino might not be quite as random as it's thought to be. However, you can always tell when the stage is going to dip onto the plaza for a transformation and prepare accordingly. It's not like random "WHOA WARPING TO THE GROUND NOW KEKEKE". And you can also tell what the transformation is going to be when it is going to transform, and prepare for specifically for the transformation as well. I don't know what you mean by the transformations being random in "shape", since all the segments have a set layout, and you can tell which segment you're going to. Unless you mean the platform layout on the main platform, which according to the link, isn't completely random and is also indicative of where you're going. The platform layout also doesn't have a significant effect on the match.

I will have to look into this, thank you for the link. I would be happy to be wrong if it meant having a potentially legitimate stage.

To be clear here, are you legitimately falling through the center of the stage, or just through the opening that is created when the platform begins to rise up?

Through the stage good sir.

Right.

Through.

The.

Stage.

Twice.

In tournament.

...



I will send you a vid depicting what happened a DIFFERENT time if I can ever find it. My practice partner may have deleted it for all I know.

I will forever disagree, since stage hazards are not necessarily intrusive. Especially ones that tell you for entire seconds that "Hey, hey, I'm gonna hit one of ya soon".

And yet they are. Invariably. They alter the mindset of the players due to not being able to be planned for before the set begins. The degree could be argued for or against, but they will ALWAYS be intrusive.

Thank you for clarifying about Big Blue and Mushroomy Kingdom. I suspected we were on two different pages with our arguments, and that confirmed it. I am arguing that stage hazards are invasive and interrupt game-play. You are arguing the degree of which they intrude, which is an entirely different conversation. Unless of course you want to argue that they AREN'T intrusive, in which case your postulations need to reflect that.

I realize there are other responses in here, I'm just so behind that I wanted to get the first one out of the way.

Edit: Never mind, none of it is to me directly.

Edit 2:@Draver: I would be more inclined to think about that happenstance were it not on a hacked wii...

 

[Funkmasterblitz]

Anywoo. Guys, what do you think about Ness? Underrated or somewhat deserving of his spot.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ness should be low tier (along with Yoshi and everyone below them)
Yea I said it.

His actual numerical position is good though. (I mean I'd probably move him down one because I think Lucas should be above him but that's an uncommon opinion so eh)

 

[Delta-cod]

Lucas is awful, lol.

Forgive me, its been a LONG time since I've been on that stage. Is there a way to guarantee 1-1? I thought it was random selection. You could keep selecting it until you got the one you wanted I guess...

Yes, but I don't remember how to do it. I think holding X or Y while selecting the stage guarantees one form, while holding L or R guarantees another?

Thank you for clarifying about Big Blue and Mushroomy Kingdom. I suspected we were on two different pages with our arguments, and that confirmed it. I am arguing that stage hazards are invasive and interrupt game-play. You are arguing the degree of which they intrude, which is an entirely different conversation. Unless of course you want to argue that they AREN'T intrusive, in which case your postulations need to reflect that.

That's about it. As someone who likes to see as many options/variety as possible, I have a certain threshold for hazards/"jank" that I feel like many stages fall under, so I'd find them acceptable (even if I don't necessarily like the stages). If we were to remove ALL randomness/hazards/potential fall through stage deaths, I think we'd just end up on Battlefield and Final Destination, which I think may be the two competitive stages you alluded to at the start. But that's not a game I'd be too interested in playing.

 

[BlueXenon]

Anywoo. Guys, what do you think about Ness? Underrated or somewhat deserving of his spot.

I think Ness should be above Peach.

Here are some of Ness' tournament results:
7th at Whobo 4 singles
1st at Whobo 4 mid tier singles
25th at Apex 2013
25th at Sktar

I recently made a post about Ness' tournament wins. I will try to find it.

edit:

Here is a list of top players that have lost to Ness.
Rich Brown, DEHF, Trela, Salem, Tyrant, Abadango, Denti, Ally (mid tier singles), and an old post by Gheb_01 saids that Ryo lost to ness.

 

[Sar]

I think Ness should be above Peach.

Here are some of Ness' tournament results:
7th at Whobo 4 singles
1st at Whobo 4 mid tier singles
25th at Apex 2013
25th at Sktar

I recently made a post about Ness' tournament wins. I will try to find it.

edit:

Correction, here are some of Shaky's tournament results.

We get that he's good, but player skill can be a major confounding factor. And Shaky is an extreme outlier.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Yes, but I don't remember how to do it. I think holding X or Y while selecting the stage guarantees one form, while holding L or R guarantees another?

I'll try it later. Been far too long since I played on that stage anyways, haha.

That's about it. As someone who likes to see as many options/variety as possible, I have a certain threshold for hazards/"jank" that I feel like many stages fall under, so I'd find them acceptable (even if I don't necessarily like the stages). If we were to remove ALL randomness/hazards/potential fall through stage deaths, I think we'd just end up on Battlefield and Final Destination, which I think may be the two competitive stages you alluded to at the start. But that's not a game I'd be too interested in playing.

I understand your viewpoint and commend it's merit. I can't think of anyone who would want to play on just those two stages (you are correct by the way, those were the two stages that remain if you take the logic to it's extreme end). I would still argue against stages like Frigate, Pictochat, Halberd and the like, however. Its been fun discussing this topic with you, thank you. :-)

Back to tier discussion: DK for above peach too...?

@sar: Pikachu...?

 

[Ghostbone]

Lucas is awful, lol.

So is ness

Yes, but I don't remember how to do it. I think holding X or Y while selecting the stage guarantees one form, while holding L or R guarantees another?

The smash wiki says that holding X or Y guarantees 1-1, and holding L or R guarantees 1-2, so yea that's right.

That's about it. As someone who likes to see as many options/variety as possible, I have a certain threshold for hazards/"jank" that I feel like many stages fall under

And others have different thresholds
So it's really all just a matter of opinion.

Back to tier discussion: DK for above peach too...?

Peach sucks because she has one of the worst matchups with MK tbh.
But DK has it worse, and has really bad matchups with Ice Climbers and Olimar as well (whereas Peach beats ICs and is slightly disadvantaged vs Olimar)
And anyone who spends like an hour learning the D3 infinite on DK should win that matchup every time.

I have Peach bias so I can't really say where she should be, but definitely above DK and Ness. (Ness has like..4 or 5 close to unwinnable matchups, Peach has 2, and a hard matchup vs Snake)

 

[Delta-cod]

Lucas is legitimately horrible though. No approach, can't kill if your opponent chooses not to be dumb, grab release and chain grab issues, etc.

I don't follow results, but I never really hear about Peach doing anything amazing/exciting/causing upsets. I hear these things with DK/Ness though. Like, does Peach...do anything?

 

[-LzR-]

Ness is really awesome until he gets grabbed. He has no business in low tier unlike Lucas. Lucas is **** tier.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Peach sucks because she has one of the worst matchups with MK tbh.
But DK has it worse, and has really bad matchups with Ice Climbers and Olimar as well (whereas Peach beats ICs and is slightly disadvantaged vs Olimar)
And anyone who spends like an hour learning the D3 infinite on DK should win that matchup every time.

I have Peach bias so I can't really say where she should be, but definitely above DK and Ness. (Ness has like..4 or 5 close to unwinnable matchups, Peach has 2, and a hard matchup vs Snake)

Where... are you getting ANY of this from? I've never heard anyone say DK vs. ICs is bad. I wish I had more experience in the MU myself, but when I see no evidence pointing towards what you are claiming I can naught but raise an eyebrow. Also, since when has Ness had 5 "close to unwinables?" What would they even be aside from Marth, DK and DeDeDe?

 

[Delta-cod]

Ness is really awesome until he gets grabbed. He has no business in low tier unlike Lucas. Lucas is **** tier.

Ehhhh, this may be my ignorance since I haven't played a Shaky/FOW level Ness, but I think Ness is just average until he gets grabbed. He has some cool stuff, but I don't think anything is really great. I don't think he has serious serious flaws apart from grab issues, just he doesn't have much that's great either.

 

[-LzR-]

True, but he has everything a midtier needs. He is solid.
While he does have GR issues he is one of the better characters at not getting grabbed.

 

[Ghostbone]

Where... are you getting ANY of this from? I've never heard anyone say DK vs. ICs is bad. I wish I had more experience in the MU myself, but when I see no evidence pointing towards what you are claiming I can naught but raise an eyebrow.

While basing matchups off one set isn't great, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG1AHoGO6cc
I really don't see what options DK has in this matchup
He's big and can't shield poke and is easy to combo into grabs

Also, since when has Ness had 5 "close to unwinables?" What would they even be aside from Marth, DK and DeDeDe?

MK and Snake

I don't think he has serious serious flaws apart from grab issues

His recovery is really bad.

 

[-LzR-]

His recovery is not bad. I play against our badass Ness in every tournament and I manage to force him to actually upB like twice a set and even then it's not a guaranteed gimp.

 

[Susi]

MK and Snake

Ness is one of the best (like top 7-10) characters against MK in my opinion. If MK had to approach, the MU would be so close to even. MK is my most played matchup and I play it with the best MK main in Europe who knows the matchup in and out. Offstage = %%%. Not auto-KO.

And Snake isn't as hard as most people (even Ness mains) think. Ness actually outcamps Snake but it's really hard. Requires pretty much perfect PKT game. Not even close to unwinnable. Snake seems to be super bad for Lucas but Ness has completely different tools in this one.

DDD, DK and Marth tho...

Here is a list of top players that have lost to Ness.
Rich Brown, DEHF, Trela, Salem, Tyrant, Abadango, Denti, Ally (mid tier singles), and an old post by Gheb_01 saids that Ryo lost to ness.

I'm pretty sure that you can add ESAM and MVD here.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS is better than Marth and Pikachu

 

[Ghostbone]

Ness is one of the best (like top 7-10) characters against MK in my opinion. If MK had to approach, the MU would be so close to even. MK is my most played matchup and I play it with the best MK main in Europe who knows the matchup in and out. Offstage = %%%. Not auto-KO.

Maybe I'm wrong, tbh I'm just basing this off what I've seen of the matchup, and how MK can just grab release Ness to the edge of the stage and d-throw, it seems really bad for Ness.

But I can't say I have any experience playing it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

So is ness

The smash wiki says that holding X or Y guarantees 1-1, and holding L or R guarantees 1-2, so yea that's right.

And others have different thresholds
So it's really all just a matter of opinion.



Peach sucks because she has one of the worst matchups with MK tbh.
But DK has it worse, and has really bad matchups with Ice Climbers and Olimar as well (whereas Peach beats ICs and is slightly disadvantaged vs Olimar)
And anyone who spends like an hour learning the D3 infinite on DK should win that matchup every time.

I have Peach bias so I can't really say where she should be, but definitely above DK and Ness. (Ness has like..4 or 5 close to unwinnable matchups, Peach has 2, and a hard matchup vs Snake)

Peach does not lose to olimar. People just don't know how to deal with him properly. Playing a basic way aginst olimar gets her destroyed. Most don't know how to get in on him and pressure him.

Correction, here are some of Shaky's tournament results.

We get that he's good, but player skill can be a major confounding factor. And Shaky is an extreme outlier.

Could have not said this better myself. This is why with peach players, they don't do anything big. Ness goes through more BS then Peach does and peach has more options. Yet, Ness does so much better in tournaments then Peach does.

People never tend to think about the player behind the character. It's ALWAYS the character. Player skill does matter. I say more then anything else. Shaky as of now is a better PLAYER then the Peach PLAYERS. Really to do what he does with Ness and Peach players can't seem to do the same. If peach players were on the same mental note as shaky, They do better in tournaments.

This is why I don't go based on results to show me how good a character is in general or how a match up goes. For me to make such a judgement:

- I would need to see 2 players of equal skill level face each other with said character.
- They know all their characters options and know how to use them well.
- Knows how to deal with what the enemy is doing.
- Knows when they can play and not play.
- Fully understands match up and can play it to said knowledge.

In tournaments, this does not happen often. These factors are not present in matches. So I can't sit here and say this is what it really is for character or match up cause of tournament results. People think it's all about the tournament results. Nickriddle placed high at MLG. ZSS hype. Not much happened with her after that to go that far in tournament. ZSS is seen as just average. Salem wins apex2013, hype is back and ZSS is seen as a beast character once again (outside of the players making excuses for salem and crying about it). Salem after that has not done much to that level since then. Apex champ and crowned best in the world gets 33rd at sktar. I hear people second guess ZSS.

There should be no second guessing. Players do not give characters special abilities to do what they do. They were always able to do that. And they might be able to do more if people play around with their options. But for this to happen, it is all on the PLAYER. So to me basing stuff off results and that bad match up chart is something I don't agree with and will never do.

The tier list just shows me how characters are doing in tournaments in the current metagame. The tier list can't really tell me how good alot of characters are. Same with results from tournaments.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@D.Pch: I really want to hear about Peach vs Olimar. I do not quite understand why its in her favor. I understand that float can neglect a variety of Olimar's main spacing methods like grab or smashes. But float only lasts so long and I do not get why Olimar cannot simply wait out Peach to land, then reach in. On a side note, I disagree with the BBR making decisions on current metagame, future potential, and tournament results which they stated are factors in Tier List placements. I think it shouldn't rely upon that at all. Eventually, there should only be one tier list through the ages. The only reason we have new ones is to reevaluate misconceptions and new information about the earlyhood an inexperience of those making the tier list. Look at DK for example throughout time lol

Ness is one of the best (like top 7-10) characters against MK in my opinion. If MK had to approach, the MU would be so close to even. MK is my most played matchup and I play it with the best MK main in Europe who knows the matchup in and out. Offstage = %%%. Not auto-KO.

And Snake isn't as hard as most people (even Ness mains) think. Ness actually outcamps Snake but it's really hard. Requires pretty much perfect PKT game. Not even close to unwinnable. Snake seems to be super bad for Lucas but Ness has completely different tools in this one.

I do not see how Ness is outcamping Snake. With what is he using that is of any threat to Snake? PK Fire and PK Thunder are not threats at all. Both moves have way too much ending lag to ever be of any use when blocked. Even when they hit occasionally they can get punished for how bad the move's ending lag becomes. Situational in those cases, but I have gotten it to occur myself many times. Low percent PK Thunder hits and the character doesn't get hit super far away and you come down with a Snake Bair. DI out of a point blank range PK Fire into Bair/Uair. There is not really any camping tools Ness has that can oust Snake out of camping with certainty.

I still would call Snake vs Ness a better match-up than Ness vs MK. By virtue of once Snake gets hit the guy will be hurting and he doens't really have the mobility to quickly hit Ness out of his UpB start-up lag as other characters do like MK.