Official SWF Tier List v8

[Supermodel From Paris]

I used to be liberal
Then I witnessed how stupid the Halberd claw is, and how liberal ideology makes Mario Bros. legit.
Fun times.

what

 

[BSP]

Bring back Japes.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I don't think having starters or full stage striking is bad. Should be left up to the TO's to decide which one to use.
Regardless people are just going to agree to smashville game 1 anyways

NOT ME

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If I ever ran a tournament the starters would be Hanenbow, Pictochat, Rainbow Cruise, Mushroomy Kingdom, Temple, Corneria, and Mario Bros.

The counterpicks would be Green Greens, Spear Pillar, Rumble Falls, Mario Circuit, Bridge of Eldin, Pirate Ship, Norfair, WarioWare, 75M, Flatzone 2, and Big Blue.

That's probably why I'm not a TO.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If I ever ran a tournament the starters would be Hanenbow, Pictochat, Rainbow Cruise, Mushroomy Kingdom, Temple, Corneria, and Mario Bros.

The counterpicks would be Green Greens, Spear Pillar, Rumble Falls, Mario Circuit, Bridge of Eldin, Pirate Ship, Norfair, WarioWare, 75M, Flatzone 2, and Big Blue.

That's probably why I'm not a TO.

Midwest did a "gay stages tournament" like this once. I think it's been done a few other times too.

 

[xDD-Master]

In Germany I also did a "banned stages" tournament some time ago (All other rules were normal):

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...th-2011-berlin-germany-europe-results.308246/

Starter:
- Jungle Japes
- Brinstar
- Rainbow Cruise
- Pictochat
- Green Greens

CPs:
- Norfair
- Port Town
- Luigis Mansion
- Pirate Ship


Pictochat was the new Smashville. It was a pretty funny tournament though, people had LOOOOTS of fun in it.

 

[-LzR-]

Pictochat is amazing. It's a common pick in Finland with the gentleman rule.

 

[DeLux]

Pictochat has a hitbox (not just a hitbox but random hitboxes), and is an abomination

 

[pidgezero_one]

Pictochat is amazing because lol kirby

 

[Gardex]

Experienced players(read: plays with random stages from time to time) will know that pictochat has a considerably large safe-zone where no stage hazzards can hit you out of nowhere.

BTW I agree on RC being unnecessarily discarded as a "stupid" stage by most people. Once you learn the timings of the stage it becomes legit imo.
But then again, character bias yesyes
#FreeRainbow

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

RC is ok. Brinstar on the other hand...

 

[Dekillsage]

Go away zss main :'(

 

[infiniteV115]

Brinstar's cool too

 

[DeLux]

Brinstar has a hitbox and is an abomination

 

[Djent]

This thread is taking me back to 2011 right now.

 

[pidgezero_one]

brinstar is great. get your ass in the air and keep it there /ness

 

[xDD-Master]

RC & JJ are fine, they arent random and have a set pattern, good stages. Brinstar is ****ty as hell.

PS2 is used in Germany too, and is a completely legit stage. IMO PS2 is more legit than Delfino, Halberd and Fregate too. (And RC/JJ)

People have a tendency to quickly characterize weird stages as bad, just because they are different. In the case of PS2 its basically because of the air transformation, because it changes the physics. But when we think about, how much different is the air transformation from water for example. The reason water is way more accepted is simply because it is in more stages (Delfino, Japes, Summit and Pirate Ship... iirc that should be all)

 

[Dekillsage]

I thought it was because MK can uair-uair and kill someone at any time lol
oh well

 

[xDD-Master]

I thought it was because MK can uair-uair and kill someone at any time lol
oh well

Stages should never be banned just because of one single character.

Btw. gaw can even kill you with one upair on PS2

 

[Dekillsage]

yeah I remember doing that to my friend as GW.

Also we banned delphino and halberd because of mk and only mk. lolol
Not sure why frigate is banned

 

[DeLux]

Halberd has a hitbox and is an abomination

 

[xDD-Master]

I wouldnt have a problem with a japanese stage list.

But at least we should have some tournaments with this ruleset then: http://forum.germansmash.de/showthread.php?18950-Core-Brawl-BiB3-FEEDBACK-PLEASE-NOW!!! (Scroll down for translation)
So we can still get some other parts of the game to be played :3
Stages AND Items! (Items are legit in Brawl!)

You can find some videos of it here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZKRYeOVm4UboQmo5DcFecGyV348FSkz_



Btw. can someone explain what happened here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rl5JkBQbUQ&list=PLZKRYeOVm4UboQmo5DcFecGyV348FSkz_&index=5 (4:58)

I still think I landed on one of the platforms on the top... but I have never seen someone doing that before... xD

 

[ぱみゅ]

You can find some videos of it here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZKRYeOVm4UboQmo5DcFecGyV348FSkz_

Wow, some of them are actually very hype.
Bunny Ear Brawl looks legit

 

[xDD-Master]

Wow, some of them are actually very hype.
Bunny Ear Brawl looks legit

It was extremely hyped!

Srsly, this is exactly what the Brawl Community needs to get some freshness into the game, because other than melee, brawl with items is totally legit! It isnt THAT random, as everyone thinks. Especially since you also got two item bans (AFTER the character choice) if you really hate one or two items.

In the Core Brawl tournament still most Top Players placed the same and better than the rest, but yet, some lower leveled players placed higher, because they are more used to the items.
How good you are with items played a big role too. (Glide Toss, Instant Throw etc.)

It was fun!


Next time I host a tournament, I think I will definitely do Core Brawl again :D It was just so good last time X)

 

[Ghostbone]

what

The hazards are predictable, there's significant character diversity on the stage, camping isn't an issue (circle camping is impossible against someone who sets up the hazards properly) and it's not like people live to unreasonable %s, because you can't continuously tech everything (though there's a bigger emphasis on teching than on other stages)

I'm just sayin, there's not actually degenerate strategies on the stage.
It's just nobody would like it being legal and it's "too different" to other stages, which is a completely legitimate reason to ban it, but it's still just as legitimate as banning RC, Frigate, etc.
#FreeMarioBros.2013

 

[xDD-Master]

I created an SWF thread for Core Brawl too now: http://smashboards.com/threads/core...native-ruleset-for-side-events-mostly.340044/

If you tested it out, or just want to comment on it, go there

 

[thrillagorilla]

To everyone who keeps saying "Its predictable" when it comes to stages I have three words...

Arbitrary positional advantage.

I don't see anyone arguing that tripping is competitively viable and its in the same category...

I don't mind a number of the aforementioned stages, they are a lot of fun. Their tournament legality should be dependent on what the local demographic wants. Arguing they are "competitively viable" is something entirely different, not to mention a fallacy (I am aware some of you may not be making that assertion, I just want to cover my bases).

On topic:

This is just a general observation for those who have been posting in the thread... there are no unusable characters in this game (aka no Pichu or Kirby like in Melee). There are plenty that are not tournament viable however, which is what this list is all about (or at least it should be, haha). I'd suggest everyone keep in mind that one person saying "this character is horrible" does not mean they are saying the character has no positive attributes or will lose any given match-up simply due to tier list position. Example: Jiggs is a fine character that has some good tools. She will never be tournament viable due to 1) some tournament viable characters shut her down and 2) there are better options character wise with similar play-styles.

 

[Delta-cod]

Sorry, but you'll have to explain how Rainbow Cruise provides "arbitrary positional advantage". It is in no way arbitrary.

Also, Ghostbone, Mario Bros. literally has the degenerative strategy of "use the hazards as your form of damage as they cannot be blocked and have ridiculous damage/knockback". It's competitive in the sense that this strategy is not confined to a single character, but that IS THE STRATEGY of that stage. That's all it comes down to. Who manages the hazards better.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I'm not talking about Rainbow Cruise. It's primary offense if any is changing jump physics, and I will let you take that for what you will.

One could argue RC has the same problem that you just gave for Mario Bros., having a degenerative strategy (in RC's case, it would be camping the blast zones or walling the opponent into oblivion while the stage moves). One could also argue whoever starts on the left hand side has the upper hand due to being able to react to the stage change faster, but since the stage produces no hurt-boxes it could be considered a moot point practically speaking.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Mario Bros is the best stage ever and me and the other ROB main in Toronto will fight anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Delta-cod]

Blast zone camping isn't permanent at all, considering the stage will eventually force your opponent to not do that. It's also a double edged sword. I suppose if you extend the strategy to include "using the stage scroll to force your opponent to approach", that would work, but I don't feel like that's degenerative, and instead is rewarding intelligent play at neutral, stage knowledge, and control.

As far as starting on the left is concerned, there's still plenty of time to switch positions, unless said character chooses to plank, which isn't necessarily the best option either, since that gives you more stage control and ability to get over them onto the left side anyways. But yes, starting positions is the closest to "Arbitrary positional advantages", although it really only applies for the first rotation.

I think Delfino and Castle Siege are also free from that criticism (except maybe in the cases of the transformations saving an opponent who was being edge guarded), as is Frigate for the most part (both players have to deal with the flip). I will always maintain that Halberd doesn't have a notable effect on matches, even though people complain about the claw, you never really know who it's going for, so both players tend to opt for defensive options when it threatens to attack.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sorry, but you'll have to explain how Rainbow Cruise provides "arbitrary positional advantage". It is in no way arbitrary.

Also, Ghostbone, Mario Bros. literally has the degenerative strategy of "use the hazards as your form of damage as they cannot be blocked and have ridiculous damage/knockback". It's competitive in the sense that this strategy is not confined to a single character, but that IS THE STRATEGY of that stage. That's all it comes down to. Who manages the hazards better.

Reflectors make throwing them at people dangerous, and they can be dodged, and you have to actually fight over who gets them.

Tbh, it's not much worse than Rainbow Cruise being all about waiting for the stage to put your opponent in a disadvantaged position then punishing. (and the stage ends up just being about whoever has the higher mobility and can avoid having to fight as much as possible when they're put in those bad positions, it's silly)
It destroys the whole footsies/neutral game of Brawl, and imo isn't good for the game.

You talk about earning your advantage, but it really doesn't have to do with outplaying your opponent as much as it's purely about character selection, the stage doesn't promote healthy gameplay.

I will always maintain that Halberd doesn't have a notable effect on matches, even though people complain about the claw, you never really know who it's going for, so both players tend to opt for defensive options when it threatens to attack.

I have a bunch of vids where the claw decides stocks (where there was nothing the player could do about it generally)

And forcing both players to take defensive options is still having a notable effect. Say I want to punish Snake's landing but the claw's going to attack, I could grab him, get my throw off and hope it hits him for a kill, but it's a 50-50 chance between that and the claw hitting me after my grab.
The alternative is to give up my landing punish, which is still having a notable effect on the match (gives Snake free ticket back to neutral based off luck)

And considering you're better off still punishing the Snake and hoping you get lucky, it's easy to see how the claw messes with game outcomes.

Maybe it's uncommon for Halberd to have a large random effect on matches, but it definitely happens.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Whenever someone gets hit by the Halberd hazards (other than being thrown into it or being in a state where there's actually nothing you can do) I just HAVE to wonder "What the **** are they doing"

Seriously, the Halberd Hazards are so easy to avoid it's not funny (unless people get hit by them, at which point I laugh at them)

 

[thrillagorilla]

Blast zone camping isn't permanent at all, considering the stage will eventually force your opponent to not do that. It's also a double edged sword. I suppose if you extend the strategy to include "using the stage scroll to force your opponent to approach", that would work, but I don't feel like that's degenerative, and instead is rewarding intelligent play at neutral, stage knowledge, and control.

A lack of permanency doesn't excuse a degenerative strategy. Also, what you call a strategy rewarding player knowledge and control is a massive change in neutral strategy and game-play that exists solely on scrolling stages, and I don't hear anyone calling for Big Blue or Mushroomy Kingdom to be legal anytime soon. Most of your "positive" arguments can be relayed to those stages as well. Of course, if you believe those stages should be legal as well I ask that you say so that I may have a better idea of where you are coming from so we may continue the discussion.

As far as starting on the left is concerned, there's still plenty of time to switch positions, unless said character chooses to plank, which isn't necessarily the best option either, since that gives you more stage control and ability to get over them onto the left side anyways. But yes, starting positions is the closest to "Arbitrary positional advantages", although it really only applies for the first rotation.

I thought I already indicated that my argument for starting position was a moot point?

*Looks back at his own post*

Yup.

I think Delfino and Castle Siege are also free from that criticism (except maybe in the cases of the transformations saving an opponent who was being edge guarded), as is Frigate for the most part (both players have to deal with the flip). I will always maintain that Halberd doesn't have a notable effect on matches, even though people complain about the claw, you never really know who it's going for, so both players tend to opt for defensive options when it threatens to attack.

Castle Siege works on a timer, right? Since the stage transformations are in order 100% of the time and at set intervals, there is nothing arbitrary about the stage. The second stage still has the walk off problem though. Also, if you get caught in shield stun during the transformations, you can go through the stage to your death. I'd say those are big enough problems to call the stage non-competitive (NOTE: There are only two stages that are competitively viable in this game, which is why Japan tournaments have historically played out on those two stages. A number of people within the community have stated numerous times that they feel the smaller stage list makes the game boring, hence why I stated in my original post it should be up to the local players what stages they want. One can not play a game without players).

Delfino has multiple transformations that are random in interval and shape if I am not mistaken (if I am, please let me know). It does harken back to my arbitrary situational advantage argument.

Frigate changes at random intervals, but the change is always the same, so it is a tougher case in that regard. I have fallen to my death between the vertical moving platform and the main stage by falling through the stage far too many times to count though. A stock lost due to a stage issue is a big deal. The flips can also catch players and kill them, and players can hit each other into those types of situations, so I don't see how the stage could be considered competitive. (btw, I can give examples of how these types of problems would play out in other games if I am not being clear with my arguments)

Halberd? No. You say no. You say no to stage hazards. They are not competitive. Nnno. (and it sucks because I love that stage )

Reflectors make throwing them at people dangerous, and they can be dodged, and you have to actually fight over who gets them.

Stage hazards. No. Also, reflectors apply to, what, about 1/8th of the cast? That aspect makes the stage WORSE for competitive play, not better...

Tbh, it's not much worse than Rainbow Cruise being all about waiting for the stage to put your opponent in a disadvantaged position then punishing. (and the stage ends up just being about whoever has the higher mobility and can avoid having to fight as much as possible when they're put in those bad positions, it's silly)
It destroys the whole footsies/neutral game of Brawl, and imo isn't good for the game.

You talk about earning your advantage, but it really doesn't have to do with outplaying your opponent as much as it's purely about character selection, the stage doesn't promote healthy gameplay.

Well put. "It destroys the whole footsies/neutral game of Brawl, and imo isn't good for the game." applies to Mario Bros. too though...

I have a bunch of vids where the claw decides stocks (where there was nothing the player could do about it generally)

And forcing both players to take defensive options is still having a notable effect. Say I want to punish Snake's landing but the claw's going to attack, I could grab him, get my throw off and hope it hits him for a kill, but it's a 50-50 chance between that and the claw hitting me after my grab.
The alternative is to give up my landing punish, which is still having a notable effect on the match (gives Snake free ticket back to neutral based off luck)

And considering you're better off still punishing the Snake and hoping you get lucky, it's easy to see how the claw messes with game outcomes.

Maybe it's uncommon for Halberd to have a large random effect on matches, but it definitely happens.

VERY well put.

Whenever someone gets hit by the Halberd hazards (other than being thrown into it or being in a state where there's actually nothing you can do) I just HAVE to wonder "What the **** are they doing"

Seriously, the Halberd Hazards are so easy to avoid it's not funny (unless people get hit by them, at which point I laugh at them)

Highlighted portion is the problem . (Not trying to harp on your point of view, its just that you stated the problem so well in the midst of a more light-hearted post)

 

[DeLux]

KC narrowly missed adding Big Blue to the stagelist during out last round of rulesset voting.

 

[Dekillsage]

There should be a ruleset where the only stages legal are the ones that hit you

 

[DeLux]

Mario Kart Wii

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

There should be a ruleset where the only stages legal are the ones that hit you

I'm working on it

 

[BSP]

Mario Kart Wii

What about MKW?

 

[Delta-cod]

Delux, can I live in your region plz. Your stagelist sounds fun.

A lack of permanency doesn't excuse a degenerative strategy. Also, what you call a strategy rewarding player knowledge and control is a massive change in neutral strategy and game-play that exists solely on scrolling stages, and I don't hear anyone calling for Big Blue or Mushroomy Kingdom to be legal anytime soon. Most of your "positive" arguments can be relayed to those stages as well. Of course, if you believe those stages should be legal as well I ask that you say so that I may have a better idea of where you are coming from so we may continue the discussion.

So are you against Pokemon Stadium? They have non-permanent degenerate transformations.

Mushroomy Kingdom has permanent walk offs, which is typically a problem with most people who create rulesets, but I'm still iffy on the matter of it being a reason to ban things. 1-1 could, if people were truly open minded, be a stage that could be legal. 1-2 is definitely out, though, because of the cave-of-life problem.

Big Blue is strange as well. I have very little high level play experience on that stage, but it's basically a stage that rewards aerial spacing characters heavily, since the ground is inconstant, small, and oddly laid out. Again, it COULD be a counterpick, if people truly wanted to incorporate as many stages as possible.

As for my own opinions on these stages, I would like to see high level play on these stages to see if it's degenerate or not. Looking at 1-1 and Big Blue, I can't say immediately that they are ban-worthy.

I thought I already indicated that my argument for starting position was a moot point?

*Looks back at his own post*

Yup.

You did, but I felt like elaborating on the point anyways. I didn't mean to make it look like you felt the point was valid or anything.

Castle Siege works on a timer, right? Since the stage transformations are in order 100% of the time and at set intervals, there is nothing arbitrary about the stage. The second stage still has the walk off problem though. Also, if you get caught in shield stun during the transformations, you can go through the stage to your death. I'd say those are big enough problems to call the stage non-competitive (NOTE: There are only two stages that are competitively viable in this game, which is why Japan tournaments have historically played out on those two stages. A number of people within the community have stated numerous times that they feel the smaller stage list makes the game boring, hence why I stated in my original post it should be up to the local players what stages they want. One can not play a game without players).

I wasn't aware that it worked on a timer, but upon looking into it, it does. So you're right, there is no arbitrary advantage, unless you consider the random amount of time spent in the transition phase to give characters strong arbitrary advantages, namely chain grabbers.

As far as falling through the stage in shield stun is concerned, shield stun in this game is so little that you should be able to just get out of the situation if you react to it fast enough. Especially knowing how it happens. It's also a rare enough occurrence to not be a major factor. You can fall through PS1, too.

Delfino has multiple transformations that are random in interval and shape if I am not mistaken (if I am, please let me know). It does harken back to my arbitrary situational advantage argument.

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/delfino-plaza-paths-transformation-rules.257415/

Delfino might not be quite as random as it's thought to be. However, you can always tell when the stage is going to dip onto the plaza for a transformation and prepare accordingly. It's not like random "WHOA WARPING TO THE GROUND NOW KEKEKE". And you can also tell what the transformation is going to be when it is going to transform, and prepare for specifically for the transformation as well. I don't know what you mean by the transformations being random in "shape", since all the segments have a set layout, and you can tell which segment you're going to. Unless you mean the platform layout on the main platform, which according to the link, isn't completely random and is also indicative of where you're going. The platform layout also doesn't have a significant effect on the match.

Frigate changes at random intervals, but the change is always the same, so it is a tougher case in that regard. I have fallen to my death between the vertical moving platform and the main stage by falling through the stage far too many times to count though. A stock lost due to a stage issue is a big deal. The flips can also catch players and kill them, and players can hit each other into those types of situations, so I don't see how the stage could be considered competitive. (btw, I can give examples of how these types of problems would play out in other games if I am not being clear with my arguments)

To be clear here, are you legitimately falling through the center of the stage, or just through the opening that is created when the platform begins to rise up?

Halberd? No. You say no. You say no to stage hazards. They are not competitive. Nnno. (and it sucks because I love that stage )

I will forever disagree, since stage hazards are not necessarily intrusive. Especially ones that tell you for entire seconds that "Hey, hey, I'm gonna hit one of ya soon".