Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dekillsage]

IC's would still be top tier, but not as dominate.
Guess what! In Mk banned if I CP rob vs ics they can't go MK on me and auto win, so they'll actually have to learn the MU or pick up a secondary that requires thought!!!! *mindblown*
If only

 

[infiniteV115]

Eh, the only reason MK banned tournaments would tend to have larger stagelists is because most people who wanted MK banned also liked larger stagelists.
If the whole community suddenly decided to ban him, I'd say the stagelist for nationals would stay exactly the same.

Not really. MK was pretty much the only reason behind banning Delfino, Frigate and Halberd. If MK was banned at, say, Apex, I wouldn't be surprised if Alex Strife was fine with putting Brinstar & RC back in (they were in initially but taken out after Apex 2010 because we realized how strong they were for MK).
Xyro's gonna go with the URS no matter what
If Keitaro hosted an MK-banned national I don't see Brinstar/RC/PS2 being legal cause I know he's not a fan of the larger stagelists. He might ban Frigate too but he'd probably still keep DP and Halberd legal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not really. MK was pretty much the only reason behind banning Delfino, Frigate and Halberd.

The fact that MK happens to be the only character who can shark excessively like that is coincidental and irrelevant. If a "non-broken" character were able to shark like MK nobody would question the ban of these stages. Though I personally don't see why Frigate was banned. Banning Delfino and Halberd was the right call though.

 

[infiniteV115]

Irrelevant?
My argument was that if MK was banned, those stages would be legal.

 

[Dekillsage]

Iunno about brinstar and cruise but every stage on the apex stagelist would be legal

 

[Matgic]

Then name a match up Ganon wins.

I'm just saying that if Ganon gets a couple reads that can be a stock against any character. He is POTENTIALLY able to win a matchup that is not ideal, like falcon or sheik. Contrarily, I don't think a different low tier like Mario or Jigglypuff has the same ability to compete with higher tier characters. This makes him better than worst in my opinion.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Irrelevant?
My argument was that if MK was banned, those stages would be legal.

I don't think so.

 

[infiniteV115]

Why would Delfino and Halberd be banned when MK's banned?

 

[Tesh]

Frigate and RC should be banned imo regardless.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm just saying that if Ganon gets a couple reads that can be a stock against any character. He is POTENTIALLY able to win a matchup that is not ideal, like falcon or sheik. Contrarily, I don't think a different low tier like Mario or Jigglypuff has the same ability to compete with higher tier characters. This makes him better than worst in my opinion.

The problem here is Ganon is all about reads. Jiggs and Mario have more then just reads.

Mario:
- Ability to get damage from distance
- decent ground/air game
- average speed
- Space/pressure/frame trap
- All his air moves besides fair don't lag. (I have to check the data on his dair, I think it has some lag, don't quote me on this just yet)

Jiggs:
- Good spacing
- Good air game
- Good recovery
- Can give some good character problems

Ganon can't do any of this. Ganon always have to be making good reads. If he plays a tricky opponent, then he is done. He has nothing that can open an opponent up. As I said before, while this game is more on reads then melee due to how slow this game is and the crap hit stun, Reads are most exposed with the tools a character has. Ganon does not have tools to deal with a lot of the major crap in this game. Yet alone the most common noob tatics outside of reading rolls and punishing with stomps or S-B. And if he guess wrong, Ganon is back in a bad position cause he has to work to get close to someone with his slow moves. On top of being pressured on shield, Ganon has one of the worst defense options in this game.

If we were to go by your logic, anyone can beat anyone in this game. But you have to realize the difficulty of such a thing. Ganon could beat MK? Ok, how hard would this be? Ganon would seriously have to guess correctly ON JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING mk would do. As much as I would love to see the underdog characters do damage and see new techs to make them better, you have to think about all of this. Ganon is not better then Jiggz nor Mario.

 

[Dekillsage]

Another problem with ganon is that even if he makes the right reads, does he have to tools to capitalize on them? Usually no, most of the reads he needs are rolls/airdodge reads. Otherwise... he's too slow.

Still better than jiggs tho. Ms.Unsafe on hit dies at 80% isn't good

 

[BSP]

YI:B should be gone really.

 

[Dekillsage]

No it shouldn't.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Another problem with ganon is that even if he makes the right reads, does he have to tools to capitalize on them? Usually no, most of the reads he needs are rolls/airdodge reads. Otherwise... he's too slow.

Still better than jiggs tho. Ms.Unsafe on hit dies at 80% isn't good

Ganon would need to land his command grab for him to get anything big off his reads. Any smart player that knows about Ganon with said character won't really give him that chance. And to have one thing to rely on is seriously not good.

Outside of that, he has nothing, the power Ganon has even at low % knocks people too far back for him to take advantage of.

 

[DeLux]

Why would Delfino and Halberd be banned when MK's banned?

Halberd has a hitbox. That hitbox changes the scoreboard.

 

[Tesh]

YI:B should be gone really.

Frigate has the same problems as YI:B on a much bigger scale

I feel like RC is just a big dumb circle.

 

[BSP]

No it shouldn't.

Eyebrows?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Another problem with ganon is that even if he makes the right reads, does he have to tools to capitalize on them? Usually no, most of the reads he needs are rolls/airdodge reads. Otherwise... he's too slow.

Still better than jiggs tho. Ms.Unsafe on hit dies at 80% isn't good

If you're dying at 80% you're doing something wrong.

 

[Tesh]

Ganon would need to land his command grab for him to get anything big off his reads. Any smart player that knows about Ganon with said character won't really give him that chance. And to have one thing to rely on is seriously not good.

Outside of that, he has nothing, the power Ganon has even at low % knocks people too far back for him to take advantage of.

This isn't really true, his best moves do combo at low percents. Dair, Dash Attack, Dthrow, Dtilt, Upsmash. When Ganondorf actually gets a clean hit at low percents, it does hurt. His biggest problem is that once HE gets hit, its pretty much over. Everyone who tries to camp ganon usually finds out the hard way that it gets pretty risky.

 

[Dark.Pch]

This isn't really true, his best moves do combo at low percents. Dair, Dash Attack, Dthrow, Dtilt, Upsmash. When Ganondorf actually gets a clean hit at low percents, it does hurt. His biggest problem is that once HE gets hit, its pretty much over. Everyone who tries to camp ganon usually finds out the hard way that it gets pretty risky.

Ganon is only comboing off his dair with other attacks like upair which deals around 34% at 0. From here they fly too far for ganon to follow up with anything. And Ganon is not comboing off of anything else as a starter. He can't chain anything.

 

[Tesh]

Not true, Upsmash combos into just about anything. Its surprisingly weak at low percents.

Dtilt combos into another dtilt or dash attack/uair.

The most ideal thing is upsmash/dtilt/dair into gerudo(side b), so you can extend beyond low percents.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not true, Upsmash combos into just about anything. Its surprisingly weak at low percents.

Dtilt combos into another dtilt or dash attack/uair.

The most ideal thing is upsmash/dtilt/dair into gerudo(side b), so you can extend beyond low percents.

Down tilt does not combo into another one. Smash does not combo into anything. These are not true combos at all. If anyone gets hit by this its cause they ether DI into Ganon or just don't move/do a slow attack. The only true combo that Ganon has dealing so much Is the tipman bouce combos that only work on heavy characters. And its only from 0%

Edit: nvm, The tipman bouce combo is not legit. The combo can be teched or DI out of and ganon can't really follow up after.

 

[Tesh]

I'm sorry do you main ganondorf. Usmash and Dair definitely do true combo into things. Dthrow and Dtilt are probably of frame traps, but they are basically guaranteed.

 

[pidgezero_one]

If you're dying at 80% you're doing something wrong.

As "Heaviest Jiggs in GTA" I agree

 

[Dark.Pch]

Give me examples that a starter combo from Upsmash that leads to something else.

Ganons down throw, If people just DI away from the throw, he is having a hard time trapping anyone. This might lead to something if you down throw the enemy near the ledge. Most people tend to DI into Ganon at this position.

And as for frame trapping. No one has to take the bait. It's like saying If I fair one shield as Peach, I have to Jab. I actually don't. To frame trap, one has to do a sequence of attacks designed to make the opponent think they have a good opportunity to attack, when they are actually in a poor position to attack. A sequence of attacks designed to Bait the opponent into pressing a button causing them to be countered out of their attack. You can bait me. I do not have to take the bait. Thus that is not guaranteed.

 

[Rizen]

FD should be a CP stage. People are thinking that a plain stage=neutral but that's not how it plays out. FD is the most banned legal stage in Brawl; it shouldn't be a starter. Some characters get huge boosts on FD like ICs, DDD, etc.

 

[Dark.Pch]

FD is a stage that is straight foward. And with nothing to screw up the fight. If DDD, IC and etc are a problem there, then you might as well not play. Cause you are fighting the character to the fulliest abilities. Now I can understand if it is something like RC or BS. But FD is a straight up fight. No stage or platform assist. the huge boost you go on about is something they have in general. Other stages would just limit the use of their abilities.

I don't see that as a legit reason. You have the option to counterpick character and/or stage. If you choose not too, you can't complain. the stage is not hazardous to you nor is there anything in the way to increase/decrease any type of fundamental aspects with this game.

 

[Xyro77]

IC's would still be top tier, but not as dominate.
Guess what! In Mk banned if I CP rob vs ics they can't go MK on me and auto win, so they'll actually have to learn the MU or pick up a secondary that requires thought!!!! *mindblown*
If only

this is why mk banned is the way to go. no more will we have children in the streets crying because batman stole their stocks.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The next think People will be crying about is IC and/or olimar

 

[Rizen]

FD is a stage that is straight foward. And with nothing to screw up the fight. If DDD, IC and etc are a problem there, then you might as well not play. Cause you are fighting the character to the fulliest abilities. Now I can understand if it is something like RC or BS. But FD is a straight up fight. No stage or platform assist. the huge boost you go on about is something they have in general. Other stages would just limit the use of their abilities.

I don't see that as a legit reason. You have the option to counterpick character and/or stage. If you choose not too, you can't complain. the stage is not hazardous to you nor is there anything in the way to increase/decrease any type of fundamental aspects with this game.

Platforms are part of the game too. FD boosts some characters' abilities and gives others nothing to work with. You can't ignore that FD seriously hurts many characters and boosts some. There's a reason why it's the most banned/struck stage in the game.

If you play Peach it might seem like a strait forward fight; Peach floats and gets around a lot of grab tactics.
Play G&W and you lose a big part of his pressuring/juggling/mixups. Wolf you have nothing to work with. Ganon, well is Ganon and sucks but characters can easily exploit and become untouchable. Zelda, good luck coming down to the stage/aproaching and loses a lot of pressuring ability. Link, there goes Link's landing canceling and platform camping, run up and shield grab him, huge nerf. PT does alright unless a character who's good on FD shows up and CGs, then you can't do much except flamethrower with char. Bowser good luck approaching, nothing save landings.
Any character who gets CGed gets CG a huge distance and FD is the hardest stage to avoid CGs.

A hand full of characters are seriously buffed on FD a few like Lucario can do okay on FD but to many it's the worst stage to fight the buffed characters. Plain =/= neutral at all. FD is extreamly hurt or buff as much as any given CP stage.

 

[BSP]

For some reason though, it remains a starter.

 

[Ghostbone]

Not really. MK was pretty much the only reason behind banning Delfino, Frigate and Halberd. If MK was banned at, say, Apex, I wouldn't be surprised if Alex Strife was fine with putting Brinstar & RC back in (they were in initially but taken out after Apex 2010 because we realized how strong they were for MK).
Xyro's gonna go with the URS no matter what
If Keitaro hosted an MK-banned national I don't see Brinstar/RC/PS2 being legal cause I know he's not a fan of the larger stagelists. He might ban Frigate too but he'd probably still keep DP and Halberd legal.

Well tbh, Halberd and Frigate should be banned regardless of whether MK is legal. (Halberd at least is a demonstratively terrible stage due to the claw)
/but this thread isn't for stage discussion

As for FD, it's pretty polar in some matchups.
In a 5 stage starter list it probably shouldn't be in there (BF/SV/PS1/YI:B/Lylat would be better) but it's been a starter ever since Melee so good luck changing that.

 

[Dekillsage]

We're talking about stages now?
Can we talk about how smashville isn't that great of a starter stage.

 

[Sar]

Wat? Explain.

 

[DeLux]

KC has a 9 stage starter list, and FD is the only non-starter stage (read, CP only) on the legal stage list of 10 stages. If we add an 11th stage to the legal stage list, FD would be a starter stage.

 

[Dekillsage]

Wat? Explain.

the moving platform isn't exactly as "neutral" as people think it is.

 

[Sar]

Which 9, DeLux?
Smashville, Lylatt, BF, Yoshis, CS, PS1, Halberd, Delfino, Frigate?

EDIT: And yeah, maybe not "that great" of a starter, but every stage has its quirks. SV lets people with good tech skill have a little bit of an advantage and makes it much easier to get off the ledge. Yoshi's has popping up platforms, Lylat has tilts.

 

[DeLux]

SV, BF, YIB, DP, FO, CS, LC, PS, RC | FD

Debates between adding in PS2 or LM possible

We also do 2 stages bans after game 1 (in 1-2-1 fashion), and might add 3 or 4 stage bans if we move to a 13 stage list (which is possible).

Not sure why RC gets that much hate (outside of MK), it's tied with FD/BF for randomness

 

[Sar]

SV, BF, YIB, DP, FO, CS, LC, PS, RC | FD

Debates between adding in PS2 or LM possible

We also do 2 stages bans after game 1 (in 1-2-1 fashion), and might add 3 or 4 stage bans if we move to a 13 stage list (which is possible).

Not sure why RC gets that much hate (outside of MK), it's tied with FD/BF for randomness

I'm hoping that LM =/= Luigi's mansion?

And RC is a different kind of random. Random as in, landing a solid usmash at any given time can yield drastically different results. If you land an usmash on FD, the result will always be the same. Also, RC has walls.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Platforms are part of the game too. FD boosts some characters' abilities and gives others nothing to work with. You can't ignore that FD seriously hurts many characters and boosts some. There's a reason why it's the most banned/struck stage in the game.

If you play Peach it might seem like a strait forward fight; Peach floats and gets around a lot of grab tactics.
Play G&W and you lose a big part of his pressuring/juggling/mixups. Wolf you have nothing to work with. Ganon, well is Ganon and sucks but characters can easily exploit and become untouchable. Zelda, good luck coming down to the stage/aproaching and loses a lot of pressuring ability. Link, there goes Link's landing canceling and platform camping, run up and shield grab him, huge nerf. PT does alright unless a character who's good on FD shows up and CGs, then you can't do much except flamethrower with char. Bowser good luck approaching, nothing save landings.
Any character who gets CGed gets CG a huge distance and FD is the hardest stage to avoid CGs.

A hand full of characters are seriously buffed on FD a few like Lucario can do okay on FD but to many it's the worst stage to fight the buffed characters. Plain =/= neutral at all. FD is extreamly hurt or buff as much as any given CP stage.

First off, explain to me what is the big difference from getting chain grabbed on FD then on BF/SV?