Official SWF Tier List v8

[smashkng]

Yes, Marth is good. We get that. He isn't bull**** like toptier characters. He has great range and so on. But that's about it. Then he starts to suffer because he can't do **** at close range. He sucks when above the opponent.

One of the easier characters in the game to juggle. And his recovery is incredibly lame, not to mention the horrible RCO lag even if he successfully recovers. And while his throws do set up for things, so do other good characters throws and their throws alone do the same damage as Marths throw -> followup, IF he gets a followup.

And as mentioned previously he can't safely kill unlike other toptiers. Where Diddy can just banana -> stuff, MK just anything into anything and Snake just tilts you to death, Marth has to commit a lot in order to land that tipper Fsmash or edgeguard tipper bair.

And no Marth cannot really deal with crossups. A crossup does not mean rolling behind your opponent you know? What exactly can he do against crossups? He has to give up space to cover a potential crossup which eventually leads him into the edge. Oh yes he is terrible at the ledge too.

Oh yeah, writing pointless meaningless arguments against Marth is so much fun.

50% of what you've posted is not true LOL. IF Marth does suck against cross-ups, doesn't Snake do suck at that too?

 

[Cassio]

Honestly the issue I'm seeing here is that many of the persons who seem so confident to place one character or another on the tier list dont actually have the knowledge or experience to speak intelligently of the characters they are placing. Once asked for specifics the responses curiously go quiet, mid-level thought processes are displayed (marth cant cross up or kill as safely as other top tiers???), or a feint murmur about results is constantly repeated. Which is fine, it's fine to have an opinion or ask questions as all of us are in that same boat in regard to some subject. What gets me is the conviction some people in here seem to have when they clearly have limited understanding the characters theyre talking about. In my experience when trying to make such strong arguments those who can discuss characters do. Those who cant cite results.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is pretty bull ****.
He doesn't only have great range.
Who doesn't suck while being above their opponent? And which top/high tier isn't easy to juggle?
His recovery is average-ish. RCO lag is his greatest weakness.
Frame traps don't exist.
Snake's tilts aren't safe either. Marth kills by pressuring people to the ledge where they don't have options that he can't cover in reaction speed (>100%). Nair and bair and power shield stuff are perks.
How are characters crossing up Marth without rolling in such a way that forces Marth to give up space to deal with it? Dash attacks? Phantasms? Jumping through him? How are other characters dealing with these overpowered crossups you speak of?
Terrible post 100% with RCO. For what reason is he actually worse at the ledge than ICs, Olimar, Snake, Diddy, etc etc? Maybe everyone sucks while being edge guarded?

You're right on that one, it is pointless.

 

[-LzR-]

@SK
Yeah he kinda does.

 

[Ghostbone]

Being crossed up is indeed a weakness of really any player's reaction speed. There aren't that many high mobility characters who can consistently pose that problem against Marth. Rolling into Marth is not some free win ticket, it's just a very good mid+ level tactic due to dancing blade suckage.

Other characters just have faster moves with broader hitboxes to cover opponents behind them. (Diddy bananas, ZSS up-tilt, MK nair, Wario nair/dair, Pikachu nair/d-smash, etc.)
Marth doesn't have fast moves that cover both sides of him the same way.

I don't know about any GOOD character that doesn't have a blind spot below them.

MK!
But realistically most characters make it back to the ground better than Marth because they have more threatening options and b-reversal shenanigans.

His throws are a significant factor in a significant majority of match ups. Low base damage doesn't change how stupendously awful most characters options have after being f/up thrown by Marth. Throw in grab releases and voila. A likely more consistently stronger grab game than at least 30 characters.

...a better grab game than 30 characters? Are you serious?
Like I'll list some obvious characters with more rewarding grab games.
MK
Snake
Ice Climbers
Diddy
Olimar
Falco
Pikachu
King Dedede
Squirtle
Charizard
Kirby
Lucario
G&W (arguable, his grab itself sucks but his d-throw is amazing)
Pit
Bowser
Ness

Marth's terrible throw damage does matter, you can't guarantee follow-ups every time (and most of the time you're getting what, a stale fair follow-up?).

Killing is hard for a lot of characters.

A lot of characters don't claim to be top tier .
(Diddy and Falco have a hard time killing as well I suppose, but Diddy has reliable set-ups and great damage racking, Falco's weird and at least traps landings stupidly well)

Where do you even base his MK mu from? Your personal experience? :\

Watching high level play a lot.

50% of what you've posted is not true LOL. IF Marth does suck against cross-ups, doesn't Snake do suck at that too?

Yes Snake does technically suck against cross-ups

But even if you cross-up Snake successfully like 4 times and don't get punished, the next time you get f tilted for 1/4 of your stock or d-throw tech chased for 1/3 of your stock.
Plus getting inside of Snake is much more difficult than getting inside Marth (often as simple as air-dodging through a fair or running beneath his jump)

Marth maybe gets a 4% throw > stale fair or some aerial first hit side-b shenanigan. (or up-b, but it's risky because they have to be right next to you, and it can be baited and punished hard)

 

[smashkng]

Marth also has b reversals you know. Some of the chars you mentioned do not necessarily have a better grab game than Marth (Pit, Bowser and G&W) and they definitely have a much harder time landing the grab in the first place. I'd argue that after CG %s Falco's worse too.
And I can tell you what is realistic Ghostbone. Marth juggling the opponent harder than viceversa in like almost any MU that isn't MK (and even MK is very susceptible to Marth's juggling).

 

[-LzR-]

Marth having a better grabgame than G&W and Falco? Wow wtf is this.

And Ghostbone for once you said something positive about Kirby.

 

[Ghostbone]

Marth also has b reversals you know. Some of the chars you mentioned do not necessarily have a better grab game than Marth (Pit, Bowser and G&W)

Shield breaker is so laggy, doesn't have super armour, doesn't cause the opponent to blow up with you if they hit you, etc.
Yea Marth has a good grab range, but Pit and G&W have far better follow-ups/damage from their grabs, bowser does too and I'm including side-b as part of his grab game (which would also put Wario's grab game above Marth's, forgot about him)

Marth juggling the opponent harder than viceversa in like almost any MU that isn't MK (and even MK is very susceptible to Marth's juggling).

Wario
ZSS
Pit
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Probably Squirtle

Idk about other matchups
And some characters technically don't juggle but they're definitely going to get some major advantage from forcing Marth off stage/to land (like Diddy)

 

[smashkng]

Wario... yeah kinda. ZSS at least equally well I guess. Pit though I doubt (how many options does Pit have when above the opponent). I can't see Kirby having that many options in the air (his air mobility is slow and he has no glide) and Puff is so slow she can hardly even follow fast falls. And how is she supposed to land when she's so floaty? Isn't she almost always forced to go to the ledge (which sucks against Marth)?

And did you forget DB and down b? DB is definitely the best one for anti-juggling, it has far less lag than SB even though it doesn't move him as far. It can be wavebounced in at least 2 different ways that surely make a difference in the air. It's far from an amazing anti-juggling option but it's an ok mix-up he has.

And LzR I said after CG %s as Falco. If you DI up and don't blindly air dodge for example then BDACUS never hits. I guess I was wrong about G&W though. Cause his Dthrow is like a techable Snake one (although G&W doesn't have as good options as Snake to play much reactive in the tech chase, he has to predict a bit more although still able to get powerful rewards like Usmash if predicted correctly).

 

[Ghostbone]

Wario... yeah kinda. ZSS at least equally well I guess. Pit though I doubt (how many options does Pit have when above the opponent). I can't see Kirby having that many options in the air (his air mobility is slow and he has no glide) and Puff is so slow she can hardly even follow fast falls. And how is she supposed to land when she's so floaty? Isn't she almost always forced to go to the ledge (which sucks against Marth)?

Kirby and Jiggs have multiple jumps, they're really hard to juggle for someone like Marth (or for anyone besides other multiple jump characters really)
Pit has multiple jumps and Up-b and glide and dair covers below him really well too. He has far more options while above someone than Marth, rofl.

And did you forget DB and down b? DB is definitely the best one for anti-juggling, it has far less lag than SB even though it doesn't move him as far. It can be wavebounced in at least 2 different ways that surely make a difference in the air. It's far from an amazing anti-juggling option but it's an ok mix-up he has.

...dancing blade
The one that stalls your fall slightly but not really, putting you in an easily punishable position? lol
Down-b is good from a hard read, but it's such a committal option and the risk/reward is rarely worth it.

And LzR I said after CG %s as Falco. If you DI up and don't blindly air dodge for example then BDACUS never hits.

He doesn't have to DACUS after every d-throw lol, you DI up and you're in a prime position to be uair > bair frame trapped or to fall into a charged f-smash or something.
Plus falco has far better close range options, and the best spot-dodge, and the threat of up-smash kills, and lasers to force you to shield, so he can even get those grabs really easily.

 

[smashkng]

With DB I meant wavebounce DB (it does chance momentum in a similar way to Snake's, just that it changes it slightly less in case you didn't know). Can't you just move out to prevent Falco from being able to Uair frame trap? Falco's close range game is better but the word "far" isn't the one word which compares the best with Marth's close range one. Marth still has Up b which beats every single close range option in the game which isn't MK's Up b, shielding, rolling or spot dodging. Kirby hard to juggle? He doesn't out fast fall Marth and the situation still sucks if you go for the ledge.

Pit's Up b is good for escaping juggling? Sounds like ROB's up b suddenly has become a good way to escape juggling ROFL. If Falco's Usmash is a that huge threat then every of Marth's 10 kill moves really are as well. True that Falco's lasers can force into shield, but Marth's amazing at that too as well with all that pressuring Marth can create with Fairs, Nairs and the threat of DS and DB.

 

[-LzR-]

Did you know Falco has one of the best grabgames in the game even after cg %? He can follow up anything you do better than Marth can and his throw actually deals damage.
And GW doesn't care if the opponent can tech his Dthrow, I dunno why people have the mindset that it's a free escape if teched. If you tech he just can't fsmash or dsmash you for free.
Oh and on the subject of juggling... GW is one of the best at it if you considering his amazing uair.

 

[Gardex]

This thread, man

 

[Player-1]

S MK
A ICs, Diddy, Olimar, Falco
B Snake, Marth, ZSS
C Pika, Wario

I hate you

Diddy sucks he is 5th AT BEST

 

[Dark.Pch]

Hey ghostbone, would you like to write your own educated thoughts on Marth (seeing as you sound like the uber expert) or would you prefer to just parrot stuff you've read in this thread?
Like, I didn't know SFP had a 3.6k post alt account.

It's fine to think whatever you want about Marth in terms of position or viability. But some of these justifications people have are just bogus.

I would not talk if I was you. You and your smash goverment team do the exact same thing.

Honestly the issue I'm seeing here is that many of the persons who seem so confident to place one character or another on the tier list dont actually have the knowledge or experience to speak intelligently of the characters they are placing. Once asked for specifics the responses curiously go quiet, mid-level thought processes are displayed (marth cant cross up or kill as safely as other top tiers???), or a feint murmur about results is constantly repeated. Which is fine, it's fine to have an opinion or ask questions as all of us are in that same boat in regard to some subject. What gets me is the conviction some people in here seem to have when they clearly have limited understanding the characters theyre talking about. In my experience when trying to make such strong arguments those who can discuss characters do. Those who cant cite results.

You guys and your team do that all the time. How can you say something like that and act like you don't do it. Countless things I had to explain to you about my character that you did not know or had to correct. You guys have a team of peach players back there. And I had to be the one to explain stuff you did not know? The hell you guys even do? The same applies for other characters that people had to come in here and correct alot of false info. I learn more from the community about character then a group of so called elite players that handle rules and character positions. You guys don't know about these things and when people try to tell you about it, you shut them down and go on about how that character sucks and etc. But then get mad when you get a taste of your own salt?

I sometimes (not often) troll you guys with my character to see if you guys actually know stuff you should know. And in the end, I tend to hear alot of half ass answers or as you stated:

"Once asked for specifics the responses curiously go quiet, mid-level thought processes are displayed (marth cant cross up or kill as safely as other top tiers???), or a feint murmur about results is constantly repeated"

I ask about her position on the list and I get ^
I ask stuff she can do and I get ^
I say many useful things she can do to help her place and deal with match ups better and I get ^
I asked if she is so bad and trash, why do you struggle so much vs her and has good high tier match ups and I get ^

Your post just described nearly your whole team. You are the elite players of this community for a reason. From what I seen, the group nearly pointless in this matter. I stated sooooooooooooooooo many freaking times about Peach persudo wavedash (The float hop thing Peach does that looks like she is wavedashing. I just call it a persudo wave dash) And how it can be useful. People did not wanna take my word for it. Called BS and then went on about how Peach can't do this and that and she sucks. Then what happened in 2013? A Player named Kie decided to put that into his games and starts going in with her. Giving freaking rain MK trouble. FREAKING META KNIGHT. And Beating 9B. Then I hear saying how sick all that is. How fast she can be. How this could change her game for the better. I been saying that for years. You people choose not to listen to me nor do it. Now she is seen as a few leagues better with this new metagame of her. Again, how long I been saying this? And out of all of the people, it took a Japanese (as usual) to think outside of the box and play with her options and use them well.

I'm just gonna say it like this (at this point, I don't care how you guys wanna few me. The hate and insults is nothing new) The group is filled with alot of players that are either in there due to some hype, connection, some sort of top player. That group is not based on people that actually know their stuff all around. If some is asked about a character, you guys should be able to answer it. If something about a character is said with false info, you should be able to know and correct. Even if you don't play that character, someone on your team does and should be able to break that down for you that you would know by now.

You got people that hardly go to tournaments. They just watch them online and think that makes them an expert on match ups. Thinking that people players are equally skilled at high level player and know all their options well. They don't ask questions. Or fully understand why the player did what he did in said situation/match. They parrot what others say. They judge by the cover. They too lazy to do their own research and find out for themselves. Pointless. Worthless. People

For my character, most of the stuff people know about her came from me. Not the Peach squad back there with you guys. From me. Dark.Pch. And I am not even in the group. I am the BBR for this character. And I'll say that proudly with no doubt. The only thing I am not sure of is a few match ups, like Wolf, ROB, Ness. I don't understand them fully so I would not talk about it. if I don't know something or unsure of it, I'm not gonna talk about it like your team seems to do ALOT and think is is law cause you are so called an elite group.

So I would not go saying stuff like this to the community. When you guys do it as well. Hell, maybe even more. The same type of people you go on about that don't go to tournaments and just the goons of the smash community, you have loads of that sitting in the backroom like stock supplies.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I hate you

Diddy sucks he is 5th AT BEST

MK, Icys, and Oli are definitely above him.
But who else would you put above him?

Just outta curiosity.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Stuff

Croikey, It's the rare Dark.Pch, less commonly known as Praxis Peachus. This is a very dangerous animal, but it only becomes aggressive when it detects a threat to the tree of its favourite fruit, the peach. It fends off predators by throwing giant walls of text at them, causing them to get bored and give up on their attack. It's most dangerous attribute, however, is it's stubbornness. It will continue to attack without pause until its foe gives up and leaves, and it will never admit to a flaw in its arguments. He will openly attack people without provocation if he so much as infers an insult to peaches. He will also discredit any other creature who claims to be an expert on peaches, believing that nothing can know as much as he does about the fruit. In rare cases, the Praxis Peachus will admit that it has made an error, but only after being bombarded with an excessive amount of evidence.

 

[Cassio]

D. Pch the biggest issue is that you tend to be in contradiction with your own character mains or they (in the past) have put down your opinion, many of whom are in the BBR already. I try to read through your posts and do at least respect the opinion especially if its aligned with other peach mains, but realistically I cant sit here and read through multiple pages of peach info. If you have a point to make make it as concise as possible.

Other characters just have faster moves with broader hitboxes to cover opponents behind them. (Diddy bananas, ZSS up-tilt, MK nair, Wario nair/dair, Pikachu nair/d-smash, etc.)
Marth doesn't have fast moves that cover both sides of him the same way.

Im sure youre intentionally ignoring up B, but you shouldnt. Im sure theres other stuff a real marth main could tell you, but regarding whats listed covering your rear isnt the most helpful thing if the move has poor range.

MK!
But realistically most characters make it back to the ground better than Marth because they have more threatening options and b-reversal shenanigans.

No, most top tiers are just as bad or worse. In fact many of them are infamous for being juggled. Only characters I can think of who are better are MK, Wario, Pika, and maybe Diddy.

...a better grab game than 30 characters? Are you serious?
Like I'll list some obvious characters with more rewarding grab games.
MK
Snake
Ice Climbers
Diddy
Olimar - (same)
Falco
Pikachu
King Dedede
Squirtle
Charizard
Kirby - (same)
Lucario
G&W
Pit
Bowser
Ness - (same?)

Gimmick grab games < more guaranteed stuff. Not to mention that marth just has strong tools for landing grabs and causes people to shield more than other characters.

A lot of characters don't claim to be top tier .
(Diddy and Falco have a hard time killing as well I suppose, but Diddy has reliable set-ups and great damage racking, Falco's weird and at least traps landings stupidly well)

All characters have a hard time killing, Marth isnt really a special case. What makes things rough for marth is that he doesnt kill until higher percents than normal, but landing hits is definitely not an issue as well as the decent likelihood he may tipper you and kill you much earlier.

Yes Snake does technically suck against cross-ups

But even if you cross-up Snake successfully like 4 times and don't get punished, the next time you get f tilted for 1/4 of your stock or d-throw tech chased for 1/3 of your stock.
Plus getting inside of Snake is much more difficult than getting inside Marth (often as simple as air-dodging through a fair or running beneath his jump)

Relying on your opponent to screw up isnt a strategy, lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

sucks. He's even or loses to , , , , and . Results indicate he loses to all of those characters. What other character in HT has that many even matchups with MT?

>>>>>>>>>>. It's my firm belief should be back at the bottom of HT or at least in his own tier position because he is the most non-mid tier in MT at the moment.

 

[smashkng]

Mid tier MUs hardly mean anything. The MUs you said are by no mean unwinnable. Snake is even or loses to Pit, is even with Fox and DDD, and DK can also be troubling for him. Yet Snake is still top tier. The MUs you showed are pretty even for Marth. By no means mid tier MUs he can't win.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Mid tier MUs hardly mean anything. The MUs you said are by no mean unwinnable. Snake is even or loses to Pit, is even with Fox and DDD, and DK can also be troubling for him. Yet Snake is still top tier. The MUs you showed are pretty even for Marth. By no means mid tier MUs he can't win.

definitely +1's , , and .

In my opinion, 's most annoying matchups are , , , , , and . All of those are from -2 to 0, but they're the most difficult ones he has. The rest of the matchups he has are 0 or + something.

 

[Ghostbone]

Gimmick grab games < more guaranteed stuff

....I don't know what to say
When someone calls Snake's, D3's, Squirtle's, Charizards and Bowser's grab games gimmicky and less guaranteed than Marth's
I have no words.
That's just wrong.
If anyone's grab game is "gimmicky" it's Marth's (besides matchups he has grab releases in, but even still, those characters still have better grab games)

Relying on your opponent to screw up isnt a strategy, lol.

Let it be known, according to cassio, whenever you lose RPS, it's just you screwing up rather than you being read. (it's all a weighted RPS game, where you'll normally win but Snake's reward is just that much higher than yours)

sucks. He's even or loses to , , , , and . Results indicate he loses to all of those characters. What other character in HT has that many even matchups with MT?

Kirby has no relevant recent results (afaik), so idk what evidence you're using for him.

>>>>>>>>>. It's my firm belief should be back at the bottom of HT or at least in his own tier position because he is the most non-mid tier in MT at the moment.

Lucario and arguably Toon Link are better than D3.
Those 3 deserve to be in the same tier I think.

definitely +1's ,

Those matchups are actually very even tbh.
DK loses though lol.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'd be totally cool if DDD just got his own "DEDEDE" tier inbetween high and mid tier.

Anything but mid-tier really. He's totally a step above the rest of the other mids, aside from maybe Lucario who shouldn't belong there in the first place.

 

[smashkng]

If results matter so much for you, then I can say that Koolaid wins against just about every Snake in NE with Pit.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If results matter so much for you, then I can say that Koolaid wins against just about every Snake in NE with Pit.

I always see him go . I haven't seen him play vs in forever.

 

[-LzR-]

Gimmick grab games < more guaranteed stuff. Not to mention that marth just has strong tools for landing grabs and causes people to shield more than other characters.

Marths grabgame better than Snake, GW and Dedede? What the actual ****.
Dedede has the largest nontether grabrange and gives you free 40% and an edgeguard if he grabs you.
Snake's Dthrow does 11% by itself and leads into itself or can be followed up with an Ftilt or dash attack for insane damage ON REACTION.
GW can Dthrow into so many things it's not even funny. Kinda like Snake's but more risk/reward.

And you are saying a 4% throw that maybe leads into a stale aerial is better than this?

 

[Cassio]

The cross-up itself is a RPS. Once you've been crossed up you already lost the RPS, at that point youre biggest hope is that your opponent screws up.

....I don't know what to say
When someone calls Snake's, D3's, Squirtle's, Charizards and Bowser's grab games gimmicky and less guaranteed than Marth's
I have no words.
That's just wrong.
If anyone's grab game is "gimmicky" it's Marth's (besides matchups he has grab releases in, but even still, those characters still have better grab games)

D3 isnt a gimmick of course, but Marth's grab game is much stronger on more significant characters. Could be bias on that as a pika though. Grab release regrabs...ehhh most people who mash fast will take less then the would from being thrown. The best benefit is a bit of positional advantage. Tech chase grabs are w/e, better frame and positional advantage are more important imo.

Also imo mid-tier MUs do matter, I agree that marth advocates tend to gloss over that when they put him in top tier...

Seagull you forgot falco in your list.

 

[Dekillsage]

definitely +1's , , and .

In my opinion, 's most annoying matchups are , , , , , and . All of those are from -2 to 0, but they're the most difficult ones he has. The rest of the matchups he has are 0 or + something.

I personally think Snake vs Fox is even or slight advantage, and vs pit we have slight advantage or +1. I agree with this though. IMO MK(-2), Pikachu(-2) and Olimar(-1) are Snakes only bad Mu's that go past the 55-45 range(Falco, maybe marth) Snake has slight advantage vs DDD(55-45), or goes even.

and DK can also be troubling for him. Yet Snake is still top tier.

Snake beats DK 65-35. That MU is **** for Dk.

I always see him go . I haven't seen him play vs in forever.

That's because koolaid mains MK. He doesn't play Pit anymore lol.


Inb4 someone mentions toonlink and kirby

 

[Ghostbone]

D3 isnt a gimmick of course, but Marth's grab game is much stronger on more significant characters.

Yea...no?
Marth doesn't have anything like a 16% b-throw putting you off-stage (and D3's edge-guarding is among the best), or a d-throw tech chase, and inhale > shield breaker too.
And that's ignoring the chain-grab he has on most of the cast.
And ignoring D3's obscene grab range.
Like Marth has some good guaranteed damage at super low %s, D3 has great throws at every %.

Tech chase grabs are w/e, better frame and positional advantage are much more important imo.

Well I guess I'll just have to heavily disagree and say I think most of the cast would want Snake's d-throw like 5x more than Marth's forward throw.

Inb4 someone mentions toonlink and kirby

How does Snake do vs Toon Link
That matchup seems really hard for him tbh >.>.

 

[Osennecho]

Stuff

In regards to your opinions on the characters grab games could you clarify a few of them for me.
**I assume you took DDD out purely because his chain grab is limited to Marth and characters heavier than him? That's fine. Especially as you are a Pika main.
**Snake?....Worse grab game then Marth....... Please explain your thought process to me..... Damage, tech chase (stage control too), read ->Utilt or Ftilt for additional damage + stage control, traps set to force a roll in one direction, etc. I fail to see why marth's is better.
**For Diddy isn't his grab game also not only about set ups/damage but being able to get your opponent away, regain stage control, and bananas? I'm sorry but could you explain how exactly his grab is worse then Marth's?
**G&W has such a terrible grab range that I'd put him even with Marth for grab game, but I can see why one could put him below.
**Squirtle.... Really the down throw isn't enough for him to be better then Marth in regards to his grab game? Not that shell-shifting --> grab is amazing, but it's good enough that his grab is pretty viable as far as I can tell.
**Bowser has an absurd amount of grab release follow ups to the point he has at lease one on most characters if not a chain grab. The only thing I can think of is you are valuing the ability to get the grab to an absurdly high degree or lack bowser knowledge, the latter of which I'm presuming isn't the case. So could you explain your thoughts on this one too rather then just crossing out names from Ghostbone's list?

Thank you.

I'd ask about Charizard but I have limited knowledge there so I can't debate/say anything for him.

 

[Dekillsage]

Apparently having a tech chase grab is not the same as getting positional advantage. You fool!!!!!!

 

[smashkng]

Snake has about the same standing grab range as Marth, but his grab is slower (frame 8 instead of 6). Snake has a much worse dash grab than Marth though. Both have a godlike pivot grab.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake has a good boost grab though. Make's up for having a poor dash grab.

Didn't even know Marth's cared about dash grab either.

 

[Cassio]

post

-Compared to snake Marth just has a better ability to land grabs. His chases are much better than GW though at least who the tech chase thing was more geared towards.
-Bananas are bananas. If you want to extrapolate what consists of a grab game that far, then maybe?
-I dont think one throw makes up for a broader grab game.
-Yes, I am considering ability to land grabs.

@Ghost
Its hard to describe, for standard play Id agree but against a top level Marth who knows their follow-ups Marths throws are just as lethal at higher/death percents. Its the same thing with MK's, Falco, and Pikas dthrow (chaingrabs excluded); all of which Id say are better than D3's bthrow overall.

I agree with the last statement. Marths throws are unique to his range and toolset.

 

[-LzR-]

Snake has about the same standing grab range as Marth, but his grab is slower (frame 8 instead of 6). Snake has a much worse dash grab than Marth though. Both have a godlike pivot grab.

And those are relevant because?
Oh and Snake has the amazing boost grab.

 

[Player-1]

MK, Icys, and Oli are definitely above him.
But who else would you put above him?

Just outta curiosity.

Falco snake and marth

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

D3 isnt a gimmick of course, but Marth's grab game is much stronger on more significant characters. Could be bias on that as a pika though. Grab release regrabs...ehhh most people who mash fast will take less then the would from being thrown. The best benefit is a bit of positional advantage. Tech chase grabs are w/e, better frame and positional advantage are more important imo.

Also imo mid-tier MUs do matter, I agree that marth advocates tend to gloss over that when they put him in top tier...

Seagull you forgot falco in your list.

You brought up a couple of things I wish to respond to at once.

Being able to guarantee anything in brawl is a rare commodity. G&W/Snake have that ability. Well, I cannot say about G&W (I do not have the background to claim anything with that), but for Snake he can cover all tech options. Whether or not its with a grab is character and stage dependent, but at the very least he has the ability to cover all tech options in a guaranteed manner. Said options will lead to a positional advantage or stock. Even upon the failure to follow-up Snake can claim at the very least a certain amount of stage. For example, say a Snake wishes to only cover in place options and roll behind him from center stage. An opponent rolling away puts them closer to the ledge thus granting Snake a larger portion of the stage to work with. Not as powerful of a position on the ground compared to the air, but it is a decent advantage.

Marth's throws will give him an aerial positional advantage at worst while snake gets a portion of stage positional advantage at worst. However, Snake's rewards are much greater and guaranteed rewards compared to Marth's. They also give either character a frame advantage as well. If we wanted to try ranking useful of throws, I would put Snake above Marth because they both accomplish pretty much the same thing, but with Snake receiving greater benefits all the same.

As with DDD that was mentioned earlier, I believe its already well established that DDD is very powerful compared to the other mid-tier characters. He really does out do them all for the most part or go on par. I'd either go with Seagull Joe and put DDD at threshold for high/mid tier. Lucairo/TL I am not sure about in relation to him though.

Snake has a good boost grab though. Make's up for having a poor dash grab.

Didn't even know Marth's cared about dash grab either.

I do not follow this at all o.0 As far as I can tell from all times dabbling in frame advance that his boost grab does not appear to be much more significant than his dash grab.

Say you frame 1 dash -> frame 2 dash attack -> frame 3 grab; boost grab
Say you frame 1 dash -> frame 2 dash -> frame 3 grab; a slightly delayed dash grab
From these two examples they achieve very, very similar distances. Its surprising how that one or two frame delay before dash grabbing actually gets a similar distance to boost grab. But come out at the exact same moment.

 

[Delta-cod]

>Talk about rewarding grab games
>Bowser is mentioned
>Yoshi isn't.

Bahahahahahaha

 

[~ Gheb ~]

>Talk about rewarding grab games
>Bowser is mentioned
>Yoshi isn't.

Bahahahahahaha

Yoshi's grab game is bad and not very rewarding.

 

[Delta-cod]

You're right. I'll have to come up with other guaranteed kill options later.