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Official SWF Tier List v8

Cassio

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
Eryx Vexia said:
You brought up a couple of things I wish to respond to at once.

Being able to guarantee anything in brawl is a rare commodity. G&W/Snake have that ability. Well, I cannot say about G&W (I do not have the background to claim anything with that), but for Snake he can cover all tech options. Whether or not its with a grab is character and stage dependent, but at the very least he has the ability to cover all tech options in a guaranteed manner. Said options will lead to a positional advantage or stock. Even upon the failure to follow-up Snake can claim at the very least a certain amount of stage. For example, say a Snake wishes to only cover in place options and roll behind him from center stage. An opponent rolling away puts them closer to the ledge thus granting Snake a larger portion of the stage to work with. Not as powerful of a position on the ground compared to the air, but it is a decent advantage.

Marth's throws will give him an aerial positional advantage at worst while snake gets a portion of stage positional advantage at worst. However, Snake's rewards are much greater and guaranteed rewards compared to Marth's. They also give either character a frame advantage as well. If we wanted to try ranking useful of throws, I would put Snake above Marth because they both accomplish pretty much the same thing, but with Snake receiving greater benefits all the same.
Click to expand...
I mentioned later it had more to do with his ability to grab in comparison to marth. Still, looking at marth you can put the same sort of limited scenarios on the characters he throws as you would on a tech chase. After a throw, a character can air dodge away, air dodge into marth, attack, or jump away. The other issue is that if the Marth gets it right, its more than just a simple fair. Usually its one aerial that strings into another string of attacks or grabs until youve taken a long string of damage. I have vivid memories of Mike, Tyrant, and other strong marth players doing this rather consistently. To be honest a stale fair is worse than a fresh tipper, id be glad to be knocked so far away, whereas versus snake who will do lots of damage but knock you away usually (I know with the right circumstances and reads he can do more).

Also Im not saying that Snakes grab game isnt strong. Everything people have mentioned here is more or less true. Moreso I think people are underrating Marths. The only thing Id add in regard to snake is he seems to be more punishable on a bad read then marth (get up > turn around grab > getting CGd for 90% happens more often to good snakes then youd think).

I could be underestimating snake though so I can see them being about the same.
 
Dekillsage

Dekillsage

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,224
Location
There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
Eryx Vexia said:
I do not follow this at all o.0 As far as I can tell from all times dabbling in frame advance that his boost grab does not appear to be much more significant than his dash grab.

Say you frame 1 dash -> frame 2 dash attack -> frame 3 grab; boost grab
Say you frame 1 dash -> frame 2 dash -> frame 3 grab; a slightly delayed dash grab
From these two examples they achieve very, very similar distances. Its surprising how that one or two frame delay before dash grabbing actually gets a similar distance to boost grab. But come out at the exact same moment.
Click to expand...
Nope
 
Seagull Joe

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,387
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
Cassio said:
Seagull you forgot falco in your list.
Click to expand...
Whoops.
Edited him in under :diddy: and above :zerosuitsamus:.
RaptorTEC said:
Yoshis grab game is terrible. Screw being able to kill out of grabs and getting guaranteed regrabs
Click to expand...
It is a grab that is "specific" reward because the cg/guaranteed usmash and dash attack only work on specific characters.

If :wolf: could air release every character guaranteed, he'd be up there with :marth: for rewards. :wolf: gets guaranteed sweet spot side b on a lot of characters as well as dacus/fsmash. I like when people do not mash though because then I get to do 15% anyway from pummels and Dthrow lmao.

Out of air releases on the top tier characters :wolf: gets:
:metaknight:- Dacus or Fsmash
:popo:- Dacus or Side b
:olimar:- Side b
:snake:- Side b
:diddy:- Dacus
:falco:- Fsmash
:zerosuitsamus:- Nothing
:wario:- Fair, Dair, Bair, Nair, Uair.
:pikachu2:- Dacus
:marth:- Side b (This one is too risky to do because it has to be frame perfect or :wolf: gets dolphin slashed).
:dedede:- Side b
Edit: Mixed up :olimar: and :zerosuitsamus:.
:018:
 
Cassio

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
IMO the biggest strength in yoshis grab game is his ability to get them, everything else is icing.
 
RaptorTEC

RaptorTEC

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
2,648
Location
Bay Shore, New York
Seagull Joe said:
Whoops.
Edited him in under :diddy: and above :zerosuitsamus:.

It is a grab that is "specific" reward because the cg/guaranteed usmash and dash attack only work on specific characters.

If :wolf: could air release every character guaranteed, he'd be up there with :marth: for rewards. :wolf: gets guaranteed sweet spot side b on a lot of characters as well as dacus/fsmash. I like when people do not mash though because then I get to do 15% anyway from pummels and Dthrow lmao.

Out of air releases on the top tier characters :wolf: gets:
:metaknight:- Dacus or Fsmash
:popo:- Dacus or Side b
:olimar:- Side b
:snake:- Side b
:diddy:- Dacus
:falco:- Fsmash
:zerosuitsamus:- Nothing
:wario:- Fair, Dair, Bair, Nair, Uair.
:pikachu2:- Dacus
:marth:- Side b (This one is too risky to do because it has to be frame perfect or :wolf: gets dolphin slashed).
:dedede:- Side b
Edit: Mixed up :olimar: and :zerosuitsamus:.
:018:
Click to expand...
You forgot:
-Uair out of grab release
-fair spike out of grab release
-grab release to egg lay
-grab release to taunt to punish up smash
-having guaranteed follow ups on more then half the cast.

But nah the options Yoshi has out of grab are poop
 
Bobwithlobsters

Bobwithlobsters

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
421
Location
Oakdale MN
Woo! People are actually saying nice things about DDD, that never happens around here. But on topic, I think people are evaluating grab games far too much in a vacuum. If you evaluate marth's grab game in a vacuum it looks poor because honestly it is. But there is more to the picture than just the grab game. His grab game compliments his play style greatly. He is a very mobile character that has an extremely strong spacing and shield pressure game that tends to push people both into their shield and towards the edge. This means his now shielding opponent who has little room left on the stage is very easily punished and put in an edge guard game by marth's grabs even though the grab really isn't that good on its own.

Would marth give anything for DDD's grab game? Of course but that doesn't mean marth's is bad.
 
RaptorTEC

RaptorTEC

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
2,648
Location
Bay Shore, New York
Sunnysunny said:
I thought egg lay would qualify as part of his grab game though, yea?
It is a grab afterall.
Click to expand...
Right you are. :smirk: Let's add on to what we already listed.
-egg lay to Uair
-egg lay to upsmash
-egg lay to egg lay
-egg lay to egg throw
-egg lay release to fsmash
-egg lay release to grab
-egg lay release to down b
 
Dark.Pch

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
Cassio said:
D. Pch the biggest issue is that you tend to be in contradiction with your own character mains or they (in the past) have put down your opinion, many of whom are in the BBR already. I try to read through your posts and do at least respect the opinion especially if its aligned with other peach mains, but realistically I cant sit here and read through multiple pages of peach info. If you have a point to make make it as concise as possible.
Click to expand...
Dude, for years the peach boards hardly agree with what I say. So I honestly don't care. Some have told me her persudo wavedash have lil use and stick to the basic flow chart of her after I told them other wise. And look and what Kie did. So who was really full of it now? So if they don't agree with what I say, it means nothing to me at all. I don't mind working alone like I have for years. That hard work alone lead to me having to explain many things to you that the players in there have not or could not break down to you for years. And we play the same damm character.

And for your lil "concise" issue, thats your problem. And also lazy as hell. People are not gonna learn anything well enough keeping it short. Wanna call BS on that?

Peach player: " How should approach Olimar?"
Me: "Just approach him on the ground."
Peach player: "Ok"

So the dude learned that the best way is to approach him from the ground. But what he does not know is......how??????? he is gonna approach grounded doing what? He has no idea how he would get in the correct way. He tries and still gets destroyed and can't get in. enemy gets away with silly dumb stuff in match ups that should not even be happening and thus *points to crap match up chart*

What I should have told him was:

  • How to approach grounded while dealing with his pikmin
  • At a certain range what can olimar do to keep up this run away game.
  • What olimar can do to punish your approach if you try to go in with an attack.
  • How to deal with said counter assault once you close in to start some pressure.
  • The range you wanna be and be safe to see what he would do once you get close.
  • What he can do when you have him near the ledge and tries to get past you or get a punish off your attack
  • How to approach and deal with his pivot grab grounded. (since I told them not to be in the air, if one goes in grounded, they will mostly go for grabs, typical crap to be aware of)
You think that peach player would understand all of that and have the answers by me just saying "approach him from the ground"? That's why I am not "concise" with info about her in general or match ups. People are not gonna learn all that they can do. And just make things harder then it really should be. I wan't people to know all they could know for a said situation.

If people like you choose not to read or care, then that's fine. You are not important to me in that matter and can do what you want. But for being lazy, don't say things sounding like fools and I have to be the one to correct you with stuff I gone explained already. Then hit me with the typical Peach is trash acts to play it off.


smashkng said:
Mid tier MUs hardly mean anything. The MUs you said are by no mean unwinnable. Snake is even or loses to Pit, is even with Fox and DDD, and DK can also be troubling for him. Yet Snake is still top tier. The MUs you showed are pretty even for Marth. By no means mid tier MUs he can't win.

Relying on your opponent to screw up isnt a strategy, lol.
Click to expand...
And thinking like that is why we had Ness/Lucas/Ike/Sonic running a muck on high tiers. Even MK got a spoon full of that. Then We have Peach beatin IC. Peach timing out freaking Diddy Kong. And Peach Beating the best Pikachu player more then once. So I hope people keep thinking like that. Cause that means less work for people who play these character.
 
Zinoto

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
Player-1 said:
I hate you

Diddy sucks he is 5th AT BEST
Click to expand...

Oh god, did I put Diddy up there?

1. Metaknight
*35 other characters*
37. Diddy

Very easily

On a serious note, the only thing I really disagree with about anyone's list (since many of the characters can be swapped around justifiably) is the position of :snake:. I do not believe he is in the Top 5 and especially wouldn't put him above Diddy. Neither his MU spread or tourney results justify him being placed over Diddy. Character pride aside, I can see :olimar: being over :diddy:, I didn't consider that when I made the list, but definitely not :snake:
 
DeLux

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,312
Eryx Vexia said:
Say you frame 1 dash -> frame 2 dash attack -> frame 3 grab; boost grab
Say you frame 1 dash -> frame 2 dash -> frame 3 grab; a slightly delayed dash grab
From these two examples they achieve very, very similar distances. Its surprising how that one or two frame delay before dash grabbing actually gets a similar distance to boost grab. But come out at the exact same moment.
Click to expand...
Have you tried doing a meaty boost grab? Like Dash attack frame 2, grab frame 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 etc. to see a difference?
 
C

Cr5_01

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
87
Location
CA
Dark.Pch said:
Peach player: " How should approach Olimar?"
Me: "Just approach him on the ground."
Peach player: "Ok"

So the dude learned that the best way is to approach him from the ground. But what he does not know is......how??????? he is gonna approach grounded doing what? He has no idea how he would get in the correct way. He tries and still gets destroyed and can't get in. enemy gets away with silly dumb stuff in match ups that should not even be happening and thus *points to crap match up chart*

What I should have told him was:

  • How to approach grounded while dealing with his pikmin
  • At a certain range what can olimar do to keep up this run away game.
  • What olimar can do to punish your approach if you try to go in with an attack.
  • How to deal with said counter assault once you close in to start some pressure.
  • The range you wanna be and be safe to see what he would do once you get close.
  • What he can do when you have him near the ledge and tries to get past you or get a punish off your attack
  • How to approach and deal with his pivot grab grounded. (since I told them not to be in the air, if one goes in grounded, they will mostly go for grabs, typical crap to be aware of)
You think that peach player would understand all of that and have the answers by me just saying "approach him from the ground"? That's why I am not "concise" with info about her in general or match ups. People are not gonna learn all that they can do. And just make things harder then it really should be. I wan't people to know all they could know for a said situation.
Click to expand...
Just curious, but isn't approaching Olimar a death wish? Shouldn't the Peach player focus on forcing Olimar to approach or something?
 
BlueXenon

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 5, 2011
Messages
1,387
Location
New Jersey
NNID
Blueoceans26
3DS FC
3050-7832-9141
Cr5_01 said:
Just curious, but isn't approaching Olimar a death wish? Shouldn't the Peach player focus on forcing Olimar to approach or something?
Click to expand...
I doubt turnips are good enough to ever force Olimar to approach.
I don't know a lot about Peach, but I'm assuming her float allows her to stay close to Olimar and pressure him while trying to avoid getting hit.
 
Player-1

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
Zinoto said:
Oh god, did I put Diddy up there?

1. Metaknight
*35 other characters*
37. Diddy

Very easily

On a serious note, the only thing I really disagree with about anyone's list (since many of the characters can be swapped around justifiably) is the position of :snake:. I do not believe he is in the Top 5 and especially wouldn't put him above Diddy. Neither his MU spread or tourney results justify him being placed over Diddy. Character pride aside, I can see :olimar: being over :diddy:, I didn't consider that when I made the list, but definitely not :snake:
Click to expand...


diddy is definitely better than fox, he's probably somewhere around 30th best
 
Dark.Pch

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
Cr5_01 said:
Just curious, but isn't approaching Olimar a death wish? Shouldn't the Peach player focus on forcing Olimar to approach or something?
Click to expand...
I can not force olimar to approach at the start of a match. My turnips get canceled out by pikmin. I have to go to him. Peach can get close ti olimar in safe ways where she does not have to worry about his typical crap that alot of characters in this game have a hard time dealing with.


BlueXenon said:
I doubt turnips are good enough to ever force Olimar to approach.
I don't know a lot about Peach, but I'm assuming her float allows her to stay close to Olimar and pressure him while trying to avoid getting hit.
Click to expand...
No, If I am near olimar while floating, or go in floating, that is free punishes for olimar. Float is only good if I can get him to block. If he is not blocking, he can punish me for free.
 
BlueXenon

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 5, 2011
Messages
1,387
Location
New Jersey
NNID
Blueoceans26
3DS FC
3050-7832-9141
Dark.Pch said:
I can not force olimar to approach at the start of a match. My turnips get canceled out by pikmin. I have to go to him. Peach can get close ti olimar in safe ways where she does not have to worry about his typical crap that alot of characters in this game have a hard time dealing with.




No, If I am near olimar while floating, or go in floating, that is free punishes for olimar. Float is only good if I can get him to block. If he is not blocking, he can punish me for free.
Click to expand...
I don't understand. I will watch Leon vs Dabuz again and focus on how Leon approaches and when he gets punished.

edit: I messaged Dark pch on skype and he sent me this post. Thankyou.

Dark.Pch said:
You got it backwards. Peach should not be float happy vs olimar. That will get her destroyed. People think with peach they have to be floating to everything thrown at them. Thats a lie. There are certain times you just can't. And when they get shut down for it, they don't know what to do. So just keep trying and hoping for the best. You have to think outside the box. And alot play her flowchart happy. By now people know how to deal with that type of play. And Peach players don't don't really get anywhere. Or do as good as they SHOULD be.

The most coming issue (and I say very important one) Peach players come to me about and what I see in vids is approaching olimar. Some Peach players don't have a ground game. Or its just weak. Olimar is ****** that. As well as her trying to get in alot from the air. Peach has to approach grounded. It's the best option to get in on olimar. If olimar is tossing pikmin, Peach can ground float nairs to kill them. She can kill about 3 with one attack. From here she can cancel her nair, and move into olimar. Another Method to approach olimar is glide tossing at the right time and distance. A turnip can block pikmin and you can get close to olimar. A good mixture of this is with turnip in hand. Ground float Nair>Glide toss. It's one of the better ways to get inside him with a turnip. The turnip can force a block, make him evade the turnip or snuff him out of pivot grab attempts. I have been grabbed by olimar and has the turnip I tossed at him break up the grab before he could even get damage.

When Peach is granted a chance to get close to him, another common mistake I see is they wanna go and float to dair/fairs. This is bad and here is why.

- Takes 16 frames to Float/Dair. 21 frames to Float/fair. (time for this is extended if you are trying to float at the right height vs Olimar.)
- Olimar can easily punish you for just a thing. Or evade and he just plays keep away some more racking damage.
- Waist up/ Peach is exposed off her dair.

The way olimar would usually play her, they want to force her to do something so they can get a clean hit, or keep some distance away from her to get some damage. Rushing into that (really from the air) with her slow moves is gonna leave her open for easy hits and an easy stock. So once peach gets close to him will killing some pikmin, She has to know what her options are against olimar. And also what the player would do based on his data fishing. It's best for Peach to stay out of pivot grab range if she goes in without a turnip. If she is out of pivot range, olimar is not really a treat (as long as she is grounded) Tossing pikmin that are not purple is a free punishment for Peach. Olimar methods to appoach (really at this range) are not as great as peach. And his spacing games is not as fast (via ground float) and safe as insurance. This is also important to know cause usually the way olimars play, then usually been themselves to the ledge. Too keep playing this game of cops and rubbers, he has to get to the other side of the stage. meaning he has to get past YOU.

So with the approach methods and forcing come kind of defense option (or offense), You can go in and punish him or pressure his shield. Once Peach has olimar on shield, he is nearly free to open up with GOOD pressure. ( No, I don't mean float to dair to another dair, or drop to nair/jab). Olimar does not have a solid option to counter, just like the rest of the cast that does not have an up-B in the likes of Marth. His roll and side step frames are bad. Most characters would be able to roll out or side step out of my pressure. Olimar can't do that if he blocks a fair. I will hit him out of his roll and side steps before he becomes invincible.

Dsmash= 17 frames out of shield. Not happening.
Fsmash= 18 frames out of shield. Yea ok.....
Upsmash= 15 frames out of shield. Even if he jump cancels to upsmash, still not gonna punish me.

Trying to jump out of air moves also not happening. On top of that I have advantage on olimar for landing a Jab on him.Leaving me with +4 from the first Part of her Jab. So It's a Matter of what the Peach player does once She gets in on olimar. And it's also based on the player. If Peach does not pay attention to how one deals with her pressure on or in range, all this will mean nothing and olmiar gets away with crap for free. This is why it's important to being able to adaapt to what the player is doing. Just knowing a match up means nothing if you can't figure out to what the enemy is doing. 100000000000000000000000000000000 people play olimar. Do all this people play him the exact same way? Do they react the same way to what you do and don't do? No.

With that, a basic rundown of what they both have on each other.

Olimar-
- Can rack up damage quick at any percent.
- Can get quick kills.
- Lives longer (unless gimped)
- Can force her to stay ground
- Give her trouble while on platroms.
- Cancel out turnips
- Gives her trouble landing
- Can force an approach.


Peach-
- Can close the gap without much of a problem.
- Can kill up to 3 pikmin with a single attack while advancing.
- Can gimp with timed turnip cancels and/or zdrops
- Has no solid answer her Pressure.
- Gives trouble while on platforms.
- Mutiple ways to keep him off stage.

- Can force an approach ( if she has the lead and he is tossing pikmin, I can EASILY kill thim and take no damage.)
Click to expand...
 
infiniteV115

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
In my experience against Yoshi (I've MMed Raptor twice), the followups he gets off of grabs are pretty rewarding and not at all difficult to execute, so his grab game should be pretty good.

However, since Yoshi is ****ing **** he was really heavily occupied with airdodging into dsmash onstage and receiving tons of damage for no reason, being shield pressured with jabs, having spotdodges read and punished with dsmashes, and getting footstool gimped offstage.

So his grab game doesn't really matter based off of my experience :troll:
 
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