Official SWF Tier List v8

[Grim Tuesday]

You also see high tiers clustering pools that don't make it out, the majority of players are bad regardless of character
And you see more bad players using bad characters because good players generally pick up good characters in the first place, or switch to good characters very early on (and why wouldn't you?)

Plus yeah, the characters are worse

But no one seems to take into account those first two things

They also seem to forget that "good for their character" =/= "good and held back by their character", I'm the best Puff and I've got heaps of bad habits and ****, I hope people don't look to my puff or any of the NA ones and think "this is the peak for this character", but I know they do :/

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well I have already said what is truly important in competitive play already. I did and I took the opposite route as I like giving myself a challenge or some people would call limiting myself. Rather win with originality. Also, I want my opponents to feel the salt when they lose, hence the use of a lower tier character.

 

[Aidebit]

Mewtwo, ness and young link have all been used in semi finals of majors in recent years, Yoshi placed 9th at evo and djnintendo demolished unknown with bowser
The top 8 are close enough that any can win a major

The balance isn't optimal, but it's far from a flaw

Melee Falcon begs to differ. The last large tournament won by a Falcon was SSS with S2J.

The last major Brawl Tournament that the eighth ranked character in Brawl (Pikachu) was... uh... Whobo 4, right? I dunno.

 

[Sunnysunny]

They also seem to forget that "good for their character" =/= "good and held back by their character", I'm the best Puff and I've got heaps of bad habits and ****, I hope people don't look to my puff or any of the NA ones and think "this is the peak for this character", but I know they do :/

Hey now.
Just for the record, I don't.

And I like to think that the majority of actually good players know that fact too.

I mean yea. I'm not saying jigglypuff isn't bad. Just that if there were more players that played her, she'd defenitly have a little more depth. I often think that the reason Lucario dropped into mid tier after being high tier through out every tier list is because Trela quit. The people that main a character mean almost as much as how good the character is itself.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Melee Falcon begs to differ. The last large tournament won by a Falcon was SSS with S2J.

This is what they said about Peach pre Armada and Puff pre mango/HBox
Falcon is fine, he just needs the right player

Hey now.
Just for the record, I don't.

And I like to think that the majority of actually good players know that fact too.

I mean yea. I'm not saying jigglypuff isn't bad. Just that if there were more players that played her, she'd defenitly have a little more depth. I often think that the reason Lucario dropped into mid tier after being high tier through out every tier list is because Trela quit. The people that main a character mean almost as much as how good the character is itself.

I agree completely, glad to not be alone on this topic

 

[Aidebit]

This is what they said about Peach pre Armada and Puff pre mango/HBox
Falcon is fine, he just needs the right player.

Falcon's future looks very grim as of now, especially with 20XX dawning on us.

You could say that about most characters. "Marth is better than Snake, he just needs the right player."

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't say "better", I said viable

And pfft about the future of Falcon looking grim just cause Hax switched to Fox
mango's falcon convincingly beats people that Hax used to lose to (shiz)
hating on Falcon is just the cool thing, he really isn't that bad at all

And I don't think you could say it about most characters, but Falcon has always been considered around Peach/Puff/ICs level
and all 3 of those characters surprised people, I think it's ridiculous that Falcon isn't given the benefit of the doubt after naysayers were smacked in the face by armada's results time and time again

Can you imagine if we were having this conversation a few years ago and I was trying to convince you that Peach could not only win a national, but could dominate the entire world of Smash for ~a year, not dropping a single set?

 

[Aidebit]

That's just a secondary, though. I'd be more convinced if Mango went pure-Falcon for a tourney and won. Top players can always make bad or unviable characters look good, it happens in Brawl (M2K trolling with random characters, Ally's Falcon, NAKAT's Ness, and others) and Melee (M2K trolling with random characters).

Just saying that "it happened once, it can happen again" doesn't really prove your point. It provides some basis, but you can't argue with that alone. Results are what define the viability of a character, to me. If you can write it down on paper, but you can't present it in front of everyone, then your ideas are ultimately worthless. I would've argued against Peach's viability before Armada came, but now that we have results, I'd back down from that stance.

Also, just pointing out that we may get infracted for being off-topic, this is a Brawl thread, after all. So, I'd like to pose a question to you. Do you think that any characters in Brawl are in your perceived Falcon-esque situation? Where they just need a single player who can really show what they can do with that character to change everyone's perceptions with them? Where they have this hidden potential that no one is tapping into, at the moment?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't mean to imply that Falcon deserves unearned praise, but I stand by my opinion that Falcon is good enough to win a major.

idk for Brawl, tbh I think anyone in B Tier or higher could pull out a surprise win with the right player (ZSS already did haha), but no one jumps out

 

[Z'zgashi]

Also, just pointing out that we may get infracted for being off-topic, this is a Brawl thread, after all. So, I'd like to pose a question to you. Do you think that any characters in Brawl are in your perceived Falcon-esque situation? Where they just need a single player who can really show what they can do with that character to change everyone's perceptions with them? Where they have this hidden potential that no one is tapping into, at the moment?

Toon Link

 

[Osennecho]

I'm the best Puff and I've got heaps of bad habits and ****, I hope people don't look to my puff or any of the NA ones and think "this is the peak for this character", but I know they do :/

NO. You are the best AU Puff and to my knowledge best not US Puff.

That aside, you lose to AU MKs and think it's a horrible matchup. If you played Nairo or M2K for example, I think you'd see why Puff isn't viable overall. B/c MK is too prevalent in today's meta. Also several other top tiers pretty much destroy her at top level. Sadly you just don't get to play these people. I think that's part of what prevents you from possibly being/becoming the best Puff. The fact that the other 3 most notable Puffs had that (SP Michigan area, Puffster NY/NJ, and Mink FL).

Also, just pointing out that we may get infracted for being off-topic, this is a Brawl thread, after all. So, I'd like to pose a question to you. Do you think that any characters in Brawl are in your perceived Falcon-esque situation? Where they just need a single player who can really show what they can do with that character to change everyone's perceptions with them? Where they have this hidden potential that no one is tapping into, at the moment?

If perception I'd say Falco, Olimar, and DDK. Falco and Oli more or less lost most of their best reps overtime. Masha quit at his peak for example. With DDK ADHD the best DDK essentially doesn't practice. And when he does it isn't much at all.
If ranking, then not really anyone. I think Snake is better than Marf in today's meta but that's only 1 spot.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

They also seem to forget that "good for their character" =/= "good and held back by their character", I'm the best Puff and I've got heaps of bad habits and ****, I hope people don't look to my puff or any of the NA ones and think "this is the peak for this character", but I know they do :/

Don't worry Grim, we all know you suck.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I just hope they arn't TOO patch crazy. I dislike it when games needlessly nerf/buff characters, so that every 3 months they have to do it again, because casuals are screaming "OP!" Hopefully they'll only patch up the really broken stuff.

That was PSAS in a nutshell, wanna know what happened? They nerfed low tiers and buffed top tiers. Please Sakurai... Be smart...

To be fair, Meta Knight and Ice Climbers completely took our metagame.
Other characters probably didn't get their best possible play because people just didn't use them, hence why players like Shaky, Ryo, Salem and Will still surprise others all around the world for their mastery of their characters.

I can very much agree here, and the same in Melee for some characters. I'm trying to clean up and fix up the Melee G&W forums there right now as they haven't really been touched in forever, and tons of Brawl characters still have guides from the beginning of the game, it makes it that much harder to be good as those characters and so they get even less representation.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

NO. You are the best AU Puff and to my knowledge best not US Puff.

That aside, you lose to AU MKs and think it's a horrible matchup. If you played Nairo or M2K for example, I think you'd see why Puff isn't viable overall. B/c MK is too prevalent in today's meta. Also several other top tiers pretty much destroy her at top level. Sadly you just don't get to play these people. I think that's part of what prevents you from possibly being/becoming the best Puff. The fact that the other 3 most notable Puffs had that (SP Michigan area, Puffster NY/NJ, and Mink FL).

I am the best AU Puff and non-US Puff as well.

I used to think mk was a horrible match-up, then I got better (I'm still back and forfth on it tho). SP, Puffster and mink would lose to all the same people I do (+ more because you can literally just wait for them to approach and snake utilt it on reaction every time), they DO lose to Nario/m2k and they have no wins under their belt, so I don't see how you can say with any certainty that I'm not the best Puff. You could say that I might not be, but not that I'm definitely not.

 

[Man Li Gi]

That's just a secondary, though. I'd be more convinced if Mango went pure-Falcon for a tourney and won. Top players can always make bad or unviable characters look good, it happens in Brawl (M2K trolling with random characters, Ally's Falcon, NAKAT's Ness, and others) and Melee (M2K trolling with random characters).

Just saying that "it happened once, it can happen again" doesn't really prove your point. It provides some basis, but you can't argue with that alone. Results are what define the viability of a character, to me. If you can write it down on paper, but you can't present it in front of everyone, then your ideas are ultimately worthless. I would've argued against Peach's viability before Armada came, but now that we have results, I'd back down from that stance.

Also, just pointing out that we may get infracted for being off-topic, this is a Brawl thread, after all. So, I'd like to pose a question to you. Do you think that any characters in Brawl are in your perceived Falcon-esque situation? Where they just need a single player who can really show what they can do with that character to change everyone's perceptions with them? Where they have this hidden potential that no one is tapping into, at the moment?

Well, there was Apex 2013....there was Trela, there is Shaky, and there is Ryo. Gluttony has scored big in EU.

 

[Thor]

it would just be too easy and boring to win with characters that are supposed to win

Then play your mid/low-tiers [I think it was DK?] most the time and play Falco or Snake or Marth or ZSS or whatever vs MK, since those characters are supposed to lose versus MK (and most lose to Dedede, ICs, Olimar, etc...). Then your (insert mid/low tier) would make it farther in tournaments because you aren't facing a bad -2/-3 MU half your rounds, but a - 1 or a 0. And you can still fight other mid/low tiers and others with your normal character because they don't do stupid **** that ****s you up when you're better than them.

***This post was like a page or two ago, I quoted part of it.

On another note...

Puff mains, what is Puff's worst MU? I had always figured Snake or MK, but y'all are like, "MK is -2," so does Puff have any -3 MUs?

 

[Man Li Gi]

You seem to misunderstand. I play as DK cuz I like him, I find it too easy to win with higher tiers, and it would not be fun any other way.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't like assigning ratios, but I think mk is her worst MU

I have trouble with projectile characters, tl, olimar, etc... But I think that's a personal weakness

the difficulty of her match-ups change a lot with who has the lead, and how player vs. player dynamics interact with that (i.e. Structuring the game so you have momentum when you get the lead, making the opponent afraid of specific moves at different times, etc...)
So sometimes it looks like she wrecks a character, through aggression or time-out, or it looks like she gets wrecked

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I am the only AU Puff and non-US Puff as well.

FTFY

I don't want to sound like a reddit nerd but honestly someone needed to do that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doesn't mean I'm not the best :D

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ino, i was just clarifying for everyone that no one in australia mains jigglypuff, and neither does anyone notable internationally that isn't US (or japan but no one knows wtf happens in Japan so w/e)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

no need 2 b jealous of my skillz bby

 

[ぱみゅ]

There was a Mexican Jigglypuff, a top player called DivA.
He dropped her because MK, but he was a beast during his prime.

Then came up a WiFi Warrior, Profesora Jigglypuff.
But it was WiFi so who cares

 

[Cold Fusion]

The only thing I ever found brawl Jiggs to be good for is playing real damn gay. And whenever I did that, I wouldn't do half-bad. Granted, I'm a nobody, so I doubt my input is of much use.

 

[Z'zgashi]

That was PSAS in a nutshell, wanna know what happened? They nerfed low tiers and buffed top tiers. Please Sakurai... Be smart...

As someone who still to this day plays PSA competitively, I have to agree lol. There are so many just straight up stupidly obviously bad changes they made and just such a huge power creep for the top 10 or so in that game its dumb. I love the actual feel and gameplay of that game, but the balance is horrific and its full of stupid **** and glitches.

 

[Osennecho]

Inb4 Canadian Puff claims to be better than Grim.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Vids of diva would be much appreciated

Puff's potential lies in playing really gay, unfortunately

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Inb4 Canadian Puff claims to be better than Grim.

I'm working on it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Puff's potential lies in playing really gay

Delta for best puff

 

[Cold Fusion]

Almost every time I play excessively gay, I do well. And then I get DQ'ed for "stalling."

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There was a Mexican Jigglypuff, a top player called DivA.
He dropped her because MK, but he was a beast during his prime.

Then came up a WiFi Warrior, Profesora Jigglypuff.
But it was WiFi so who cares

Maybe we should change it from US to "The Americas".

While we're at it, might as well chuck Europe in there. They use and excel at using weird characters.

I'm sure there's some French player out there who is M2K tier at Jigglypuff but only plays with his friends, while screaming "SI QUE LE FRENCH" or something.

Sorry Grimmy.

 

[Osennecho]

Almost every time I play excessively gay, I do well. And then I get DQ'ed for "stalling."

Not sure who is DQ'ing a Puff for stalling in brawl... Her stall isn't even that good relative to say MK =_=... Sounds like w/e low scale? tourney you are at is just filled with salty people who don't like losing to Puff. Of course LGL is a dif story.

 

[Man Li Gi]

There was a Mexican Jigglypuff, a top player called DivA.
He dropped her because MK, but he was a beast during his prime.

Then came up a WiFi Warrior, Profesora Jigglypuff.
But it was WiFi so who cares

Wasn't Salem also a wifi warrior also?

 

[ぱみゅ]

But she didn't ever attend a tournament, so it won't matter until she makes something meaningful.
(and the name is PUFFY).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyFSs3sPYic The only video of DIvA that I was able to find.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

which pixel is diva?

looks alright, shame he quit

 

[New_Dumal]

Do you think that without a Top8 Olimar or Marth in APEX this year...
Diddy should steal the Olimar #3 spot and Snake the #5 from Marth ? Maybe is that out of question but what I think is:

I really hate play against Marth, such a good character. But i know too that I'm far away from Brawl top-professional gameplay.
And most close the top professional level, worse is Marth.
In a scenario with so many MK a character greatness should be measured in how well he can pass through them.
That said, I still think his right position for the metagame is #7, the last top tier.

Also as a Pit player (playing gradually more with MK) I feel so bad for seeing him under Mr.G&W and Wolf (fox o.k, he is underated).
Expecting that to be fixed.

 

[Jigglymaster]

You can do rising pound with Jigglypuff about 15 times in a row w/o jumping before you'd die under the stage. Then using those 5 jumps you can get back up to the ledge while juking your opponent out to which ledge you're going to grab like 3 times. Dunno if this counts as stalling though, (you can avoid scourging by grabbing the ledge you originally started on)

But yes, playing Jigglypuff "gay" in this game is the only way to play her effectively. Maybe I would consider helping out more but Im too busy w/ college life. Somehow I'm still considered one of the best Puffs, thats a problem, it means all the other puff mains really need to step it up.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

As a top MT/LT main of a character, sometimes it's really luck of the draw when it comes to performance at a major.

This past apex I only lost to DeLux, in the Zelda vs ICs matchup. I personally know I could've beaten people in the bracket, but I ran into a tough MU and was beaten so I drowned in pools. It makes the runs that MT/LT players that much more magical when they happen.

 

[Gardex]

To be fair, it seemed like you lost more because of your own crucial mistakes than the matchup being bad(especially game 1).

....I'm still sad that I got you in my pool(You were a bigger threat than ADHD to me)

 

[#HBC | Scary]

To be fair, it seemed like you lost more because of your own crucial mistakes than the matchup being bad(especially game 1).

....I'm still sad that I got you in my pool(You were a bigger threat than ADHD to me)

Game 1 ripped at my heart lmao. It burned!!!

I take that as a tremendous complement dude!! I saw you in my pool and immediately was all "Oh geez.....my pool is SUPER LOADED"