Official SWF Tier List v8

[1PokeMastr]

Lucario just auto loses to D3 regardless. :l

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've seen the MU play out and it's not really auto lose.

Hard? yup but not pick and win.

 

[Djent]

It's really striking how much better Shogun and MVD are at the Pika MU as Snake than Ally is. Actually, it's kind of depressing that Ally still does so poorly.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Maybe you should focus less on someone's performance, and focus on yours.

And if you don't play the game, don't comment on others


It's still auto lose.

 

[Djent]

Figuring out which performances should and shouldn't be emulated in a MU is *part* of improving as a player.

But I guess every player should reinvent the wheel, so as to avoid arrogantly focusing on someone else's performance.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Figuring out which performances should and shouldn't be emulated in a MU is *part* of improving as a player.

But I guess every player should reinvent the wheel, so as to avoid arrogantly focusing on someone else's performance.

So you're saying we should all be Wario mains?

 

[1PokeMastr]

For Wario, the bike comes before the wheel.

Not sure how it works, but he had a bike before he had wheels.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

For Wario, the bike comes before the wheel.

Not sure how it works, but he had a bike before he had wheels.

No the Bike and the wheels appear at the same time. He has to take the wheels off the bike to use them.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Isn't the bike bigger than Wario ?

Where does he keep it ?


He pulls it out on like.. frame 5.

WHERE DO YOU GET A BIKE IN 1/12TH OF A SECOND.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Isn't the bike bigger than Wario ?

Where does he keep it ?


He pulls it out on like.. frame 5.

WHERE DO YOU GET A BIKE IN 1/12TH OF A SECOND.

Every character in Smash is a Wizard. Everybody knows that how could you be such an idiot Poke jeez.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Maybe you should focus less on someone's performance, and focus on yours.

And if you don't play the game, don't comment on others


It's still auto lose.

Except I have and do.

Its not auto lose.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A Lucario will still lose to a Dedede of equivalent skill every time
that's pre bad

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A Lucario will still lose to a Dedede of equivalent skill every time
that's pre bad

Not really.

It's his worst MU IMO but I've seen top Lucario back in the day still hold their own but even now it's not free.

If the stage list was more open it would be even worse, but that is another can of worms.

 

[Sunnysunny]

A Lucario will still lose to a Dedede of equivalent skill every time
that's pre bad

It's bull ****, yea, the majority of the time DDD will win, but you can never really count out Lucarios insane comeback ability. Were all vulnerable to human error, and lucario can really capitilize on the smallest of slip ups.

DDD has options to punish almost all of our stuff if we space incorrectly, but even if we do we eventually end up losing stage control and getting pushed to the corner of the stage. Which is bad. :T Our saving grace is DDD's such a fatty that we can basically carry him from one edge to another, and that at high aura, all our **** becomes safe, assuming he wasn't able to gimp us.

I wouldn't say it's a sure fire loss everytime even if the two are the same skill level, but you'd definitely have to have some luck to win or pull off some incredible aura related BS.

I could go really in depth on this, but i've talked about this damn MU far too much already in this thread in the past. Lol.

 

[Thor]

Wait did Shaya delete my tier list? I got like 6 likes for that though...

Dedede Lucario is -2 for a reason - it's not unwinnable, but it's tough. LIke Olimar Pikachu for the Pikachu except a bit worse.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Wait did Shaya delete my tier list? I got like 6 likes for that though...

Dedede Lucario is -2 for a reason - it's not unwinnable, but it's tough. LIke Olimar Pikachu for the Pikachu except a bit worse.

lool.
Me and ryu were actually on the lucario panel for last MU chart. DDD was actually the most discussed MU. But mostly because the snakes pushed for a -1 and got it. So it felt really weird to have like, snake listed as -1 and DDD as negative -2. Snakes not as bad as DDD, but there still pretty equal in terms of terribleness.

It's like, just the fact that they both weren't considered -2 bugged the crap outta me. Uhg.

In retrospect I guess snake IS a -1 though. Snakes like on the verge of -1/-2. It'd probably be -2 if Snakes knew the match up better, but they don't, so eh.

Theorycraft.

 

[Man Li Gi]

It's his worst MU IMO but I've seen top Lucario back in the day still hold their own but even now it's not free.

Pretty sure you are talking about Trela at WHOBO 4 coming close to beating Atomsk, right? Does anybody even remember what I am talking about?

It's bull ****, yea, the majority of the time DDD will win, but you can never really count out Lucarios insane comeback ability. Were all vulnerable to human error, and lucario can really capitilize on the smallest of slip ups.

DDD has options to punish almost all of our stuff if we space incorrectly, but even if we do we eventually end up losing stage control and getting pushed to the corner of the stage. Which is bad. :T Our saving grace is DDD's such a fatty that we can basically carry him from one edge to another, and that at high aura, all our **** becomes safe, assuming he wasn't able to gimp us.

I wouldn't say it's a sure fire loss everytime even if the two are the same skill level, but you'd definitely have to have some luck to win or pull off some incredible aura related BS.

I could go really in depth on this, but i've talked about this damn MU far too much already in this thread in the past. Lol.

KD3 has a bair that shuts down Jackal's aerial momentum (mainly fair) and the majority of its ground attacks (even wolf's fair beats Jackal's fair). You mention that he (KD3) is a fatty and that makes him quite resilient to many of Jackal's kill moves and can still outrange Jackal. Since I do not plan on reading the whole 120+ pages of potential nonsense to find only one logical MU speech, can you post a streamlined version of it or PM me the whole speech as I want to know how Jackal can fare against KD3.

 

[Sunnysunny]

KD3 has a bair that shuts down Jackal's aerial momentum (mainly fair) and the majority of its ground attacks (even wolf's fair beats Jackal's fair). You mention that he (KD3) is a fatty and that makes him quite resilient to many of Jackal's kill moves and can still outrange Jackal. Since I do not plan on reading the whole 120+ pages of potential nonsense to find only one logical MU speech, can you post a streamlined version of it or PM me the whole speech as I want to know how Jackal can fare against KD3.

Yeh.
I will give you a summarized version of jackal verse penguin later sense you seem genuinely curious. <3 Um. In response to what you just said that yea, DDD basically does a lot of what we do but better. His f-tilt has similar range to our f-smash but way better start up and he beats us in the air thanks to his b-air, and multiple jumps that help him bait out our approaches. He's hard to kill because of how fat he is, but that also means he's more vulnerable to our combo's. Like, at low percent we can literally drag him from one side of the edge to the other with f-air n-air strings just as he can drag us from one side to the other his chaingrab. Mmm. I'll explain why this is so important later via PM, but i'll just say that stage control is incredibly important in this MU, since both characters can harass the other if they get off stage.

It's just that, like ya said, DDD's options on both the ground and air are better then ours, and those big damage/gimp opportunity present themselves a hell of a lot more to him, then they do Lu.


Ahh. I'll message you tonight. I have the write up I did saved somewhere on here. :T

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yeh.
I will give you a summarized version of jackal verse penguin later sense you seem genuinely curious. <3 Um. In response to what you just said that yea, DDD basically does a lot of what we do but better. His f-air has similar range to our f-smash but way better start up and he beats us in the air thanks to his b-air, and multiple jumps that help him bait out our approaches. He's hard to kill because of how fat he is, but that also means he's more vulnerable to our combo's. Like, at low percent we can literally drag him from one side of the edge to the other with f-air n-air strings just as he can drag us from one side to the other his chaingrab. Mmm. I'll explain why this is so important later via PM, but i'll just say that stage control is incredibly important in this MU, since both characters can harass the other if they get off stage.

It's just that, like ya said, DDD's options on both the ground and air are better then ours, and those big damage/gimp opportunity present themselves a hell of a lot more to him, then they do Lu.


Ahh. I'll message you tonight. I have the write up I did saved somewhere on here. :T

This type of nonsense and completely uneven MU's is what I have always hated about Smash. Sakurai never throws a bone to characters and leaves things to be completely unbalanced for eternity.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah there is that from Whobo back then.

Was really close set.

I think Snake is easier than MK and D3, but he is still a bad MU.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I think Snake is easier than MK and D3, but he is still a bad MU.

I think MK is way ****ing harder then D3 if they actually bothered to learn the match up. Ya know, if they just kept us at the tip of there sword range, and poked at us instead of doing unsafe **** like tornadong into our shields. Lol.

I dunno, I kinda wanna hear how ya feel about that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not really.

It's his worst MU IMO but I've seen top Lucario back in the day still hold their own but even now it's not free.

Back in the day is very different to now... I'd like to see a set of Lucario holding his own, because I can't see it happening against a Dedede who just plays it by the book.

I'm picturing the mu in my head and I feel like the only way Lucario is going to land hits is through cross-ups and associated mix-ups, is that accurate?
Like, Lucario on a platform, Dedede shielding on the stage. Lucario drops down and double-jump fairs into his shield and from here he can either fall in-front of or behind Dedede

How I see the mu from Dedede's perspective (theory-craft):
Retreating SH bair in neutral is like... completely safe, stuffs almost everything and hardly gives up any stage control. Walk away > turn-around ftilt is similarly ********
The CG puts Lucario off-stage, shouldn't have to elaborate on why that's significant
I can't see Lucario carrying Dedede across the stage, couldn't Dedede just DI into the ground to cancel stun and buffer a shield/spot-dodge at low %?
Dedede could surely string fairs and bairs together in certain situations due to Lucario's stats, that's pretty painful
Utilt beats dair, I assume, but I'm not familiar enough with the characters to know the nuances of this type of exchange, cause Lucario obviously has mix-ups while falling he's not gonna just always dair, but I get the impression Dedede can frame trap reliably in this situation once they are used to Lucario's finer details (fall speed, fast-fall speed, dair's stall/hitbox/frame data, etc...)

From Lucario's perspective, I suppose I'd alternate between playing super campy with AS and dancing around just outside of his grab range to try and bait stuff - cause from that position DDD's ftilt is relatively useless, and his bair and grab are larger commitments - based on how 'in control' I feel
and of course, this is prime position for the cross-ups I mentioned above

It doesn't surprise me that Lucario can hold his own against DDD now that I think about it, he has plenty of opportunities to deal solid damage, but I can't see momentum every really tipping in his favour significantly as long as the DDD stays calm, sits on the ledge when he needs to, etc... It's the kind-of match-up that will always go down to one stock, but DDD will always win, in my mind at least.

I think MK is way ****ing harder then D3 if they actually bothered to learn the match up. Ya know, if they just kept us at the tip of there sword range, and poked at us instead of doing unsafe **** like tornadong into our shields. Lol.

I dunno, I kinda wanna hear how ya feel about that.

I think so as well, but Lucario will always do better against meta knight in tournament than he will against Dedede because mk only wrecks when he knows the match-up, and Lucario is always going to have waaaayyy more experience than mk
where-as dedede can just play how he plays in every mu lol

 

[Thor]

Does aura never outrange MK [or would tip of sword just make stuff really dang annoying/Lucario one-dimensional)? Also can't Dedede get buffered usmash from a dthrow on Lucario (so grab at like 130% = KO if done right)?

Also, considering reposting my tier list but pretty sure Shaya will just ban me...

EDIT: Hadn't seen GT's post, only Sunnysunny's when I posted, but too lazy to read GT's right now since watching Trela footage on Youtube.

 

[BlueXenon]

I don't think Lucario gains range as his aura increases, except for his aura sphere.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

BlueXenon is correct.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Does aura never outrange MK [or would tip of sword just make stuff really dang annoying/Lucario one-dimensional)? Also can't Dedede get buffered usmash from a dthrow on Lucario (so grab at like 130% = KO if done right)?
.

Lol I wish.
F-smash outranges him and is safe if were at high aura, but MK's mobility is good enough to always just keep us in his sword range, so f-smash becomes too slow and unsafe to just lob out most the time. F-tilt i'd say has enough range to contend with his pokes, but it comes out at like 12 which is basically double the time it takes for MK to send out a move.

Really our best tool in the MU is aurasphere. It comes out aaaat 8 frames, when fully charged, so always having one in tow is super ****ing helpful and is basically one of the only reasons he should ever fear poking at us from the front or back.

Finding the time to charge one up fully though is another story. Ha.

EDIT: OH! And yea, DDD gets the u-smash outta d-throw. Just, not many actually do it. I'm sure there are D3's that can, but I don't see it often personally. =/

I think so as well, but Lucario will always do better against meta knight in tournament than he will against Dedede because mk only wrecks when he knows the match-up, and Lucario is always going to have waaaayyy more experience than mk

where-as dedede can just play how he plays in every mu lol

Lmao pretty much. Also why bother learning the Lucario match up when MK still wins it with a +2? Ha! It could be -3 for us imo if they bothered, but they don't so, blahhh~ I'm okay with that. The less people that know about how jank a character we are the better.

I don't think Lucario gains range as his aura increases, except for his aura sphere.

He doesn't. He gains shield stun, knockback, damage, and hit stun though. The shield stun is what makes his moves safe.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I don't think Lucario gains range as his aura increases, except for his aura sphere.

He gains shield damage and somehow people argue that he gains range.
KD3 has frame traps on almost anybody that he can chaingrab. There are little to no Lucarios playing (as far as I can see) and KD3 as GT says plays how they should play (CGing all day). A Lucario could take advantage of that since Lu is a rare sight to see nowadays.

 

[BlueXenon]

Richi is a good Lucario player from Mexico.
You can probably find his sets, which were close, vs mew2king and Zero on youtube.

 

[Thor]

Eh, I was only asking, at X% (whatever it is), do any of Lucario's aerials/ground attacks outrange MK? The answer appears to be yes but they are not aerials or fast so it's an issue, which is what I was asking.

Also, what happened to Trela? Just stopped playing? He had some really awesome footage/victories... and I don't know of any Lucarios either.

...Oh thanks for the notice Blue Xenon

 

[Sunnysunny]

Eh, I was only asking, at X% (whatever it is), do any of Lucario's aerials/ground attacks outrange MK? The answer appears to be yes but they are not aerials or fast so it's an issue, which is what I was asking.

Also, what happened to Trela? Just stopped playing? He had some really awesome footage/victories... and I don't know of any Lucarios either.

Mmm. B-air outranges him, But yea. Usually a matter of too slow or not long ranged enough. b-air is like....14 frames, with pretty bad ending lag when it's not auto-cancelled. Our moves are also too slow OoS to punish a lot of what he does, but, then again, who IS quick enough to really punish MK that hard? :T Basically the only way too punish him is by making distance between you and him and using unorthadox mobility options like wavebounces to try and bait moves outta him.

Also, trela quit, because some life related things got in the way. I remember him saying he was satisfied with how far he got though when he quit, because he was without a doubt the best Lucario.

Right now, there's no really best Lucario out there. Just a handful a pretty damn good lucarios (I like to think i'm up there~) but none that stand out like trela did. We need someone to really champion this character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Back in the day is very different to now... I'd like to see a set of Lucario holding his own, because I can't see it happening against a Dedede who just plays it by the book.

Back in the say is still relevant since ho wit plays out when top players of both characters play each other doesn't change that drastically. It's not free at all, this hasn't changed even with the Dthrow to Usmash which apparently only Vex can do consistently to any degree. Even if they can, this mu never has been anything nearly as stompy as some people make it out to be.

MK could be worse, but D3 really seems like he is much harder for Lucario to work around in the same way MK is just that D3 has a lot more crap he can do to Lucario than MK can.

 

[PKBeam]

One grab =/= death, unless the Lucas is already at/near kill %s. With good mashing, the pummels travelling all the way across a stage like FD will deal, at most, 50% (and in the case that the pummels sum to 50%, the grab probably started when Lucas was already around 70+). Coupled with the possibility of air release, it's hardly the case that one grab will lead to death.

i'm pretty sure that during the MU discussions the boards assumed one-grab-death. otherwise the sheik MU number might actually be what it's supposed to be.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

he's talking about marth, not sheik

 

[PKBeam]

i know. i just think that if they assumed Marth wasn't one-grab-death, then the sheik boards probably wouldn't even be able to make an argument that they could kill Lucas off of one grab at any %.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

He doesn't. He gains shield stun, knockback, damage, and hit stun though. The shield stun is what makes his moves safe.

Actually the only thing he gains is damage. The extra damage amps up all those other attributes though.

So... I guess?

(what i mean is more dmage = more shield stun/knockback/hitstun/shield damage etc)

 

[Sunnysunny]

Actually the only thing he gains is damage. The extra damage amps up all those other attributes though.

Lol. Never actually knew that it was all just damage based. Ha.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Speaking of D3 wrecking Lucario, I think Sakurai may know this and put this image in Lucario's Smash 4 reveal album:

 

[PKBeam]

May be hinting at something...

 

[tekkie]

yeah but

WFT hard counters D3 anyways

[let's make an update pictures matchup chart]

 

[Grim Tuesday]

WFT would get CG'd by DDD