Official SWF Tier List v8

[PKBeam]

nope, you're the only one who said "extended"
Ctrl+F

 

[Shaya]

Oops, those pesky Eds.

 

[mimgrim]

nope, you're the only one who said "extended"
Ctrl+F

Never seen my name abbreviated SG before loool, but ok. has 8-9 frames of invincibility. Shine comes out on frame 1 and lasts till frame 8 or 9 (I can never remember which). You can extend this invincibility with ledgehop shine, which is what I do most of the time to get back on stage safely (Through nado/SL even).

His Usmash is great for punishing (It does 18%), but only punishing. Though, it can combo from Bair if you Dacus at mid percents.

Of course that becomes moot as he went on to say

's shine comes out on frame 1. Under normal circumstances it would not stack, but if you time the shine at the correct moment then it basically adds more invincibility frames.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Such stupid words for it anyway
the invincibility doesn't stack or extend

it's just two different things that give you invincibility, and you can do one of them while you're invincible from the other one

 

[Shaya]

You're being pedantic considering there are no mechanics in this game that extend your invincibility in the sense that you're referring to. How can extending your invincibility come from anything other than chaining things that give invincibility? I'm pretty sure people use the word when talking about ledge mechanics as well; "extending his invincibility by regrabbing the ledge".

One also extends how much invincibility they have to use an action by timing their ledge actions appropriately.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Guys speaking of invincibility, DK is ****ing broken. Everything he has is invincible holy ****.

Hooray I learned stuff from my Puff vs DK MM with Poke!

Well, something other than not to MM DK with Puff lmao

 

[PKBeam]

DK is not broken

 

[Ghostbone]

DK's pretty broke
Until you pick MK
Or D3
Or ICs
Or Olimar
etc.

 

[Shaya]

It's more like DK is extremely broken, then he uses any one of his moves without hitting you and you take out your rod/sword and **** him. But until he actually does something, he is sooooo scary.

 

[PKBeam]

Ganon's pretty broke
Until you pick MK
Or D3
Or ICs
Or Olimar
etc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Gengar's pretty broke

 

[Emblem Lord]

I notice people (read as everyone NOT a high a level player and/or having a great amount of system knowledge) tend to say so and so is good, but that means nothing in reality.

"DK is soooooooooo good"

Ok? wtf are we supposed to do with that? And hes not even the best at what he does. His gameplan (maintain mid-range dominance with solid pokes, powerful specials and go for the juggle trap) isnt unique nor is he even the best at it. Metaknight is better (duh), Marth, Lucario, ZSS and others are arguably as good at it. Data would say Marth and ZSS surpass him actually.

Looking at tools in a vacuum is misleading. DKs scariest trait, his power is the very thing that often gets him in a bad position. Taking a risk for a kill, only to get blocked/dodged and punished.

Short version....so and so is sooooooo good. Till you pick one of their 10 counterpick match ups and they get owned up

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Gengar's pretty broke

Seriously.

Freaking sub disable

So annoying.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I notice people (read as everyone NOT a high a level player and/or having a great amount of system knowledge) tend to say so and so is good, but that means nothing in reality.

"DK is soooooooooo good"

Ok? wtf are we supposed to do with that? And hes not even the best at what he does. His gameplan (maintain mid-range dominance with solid pokes, powerful specials and go for the juggle trap) isnt unique nor is he even the best at it. Metaknight is better (duh), Marth, Lucario, ZSS and others are arguably as good at it. Data would say Marth and ZSS surpass him actually.

Looking at tools in a vacuum is misleading. DKs scariest trait, his power is the very thing that often gets him in a bad position. Taking a risk for a kill, only to get blocked/dodged and punished.

Short version....so and so is sooooooo good. Till you pick one of their 10 counterpick match ups and they get owned up

So why should we listen to nobodies who think DK isn't good and has 10 counterpick match-ups that own him?

EDIT: I should probably be less troll-y cause I got warned for my gengar post before; people are joking when they make "x is soooo good" posts without justification
lurk moar and take this thread less seriously, intelligent discussion is rare and short-lived

 

[Ghostbone]

Gengar's pretty broke

Nah
Only gengarite is broke.

And yea, actual discussion doesn't occur much anymore because everything's been discussed before to death and the meta's pretty stale at this point.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dont worry. I didnt take you seriously. Anyone that talks about jiggz as much as you do, is obviously goofing around.

 

[Man Li Gi]

"DK is soooooooooo good"

I agree.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dont worry. I didnt take you seriously. Anyone that talks about jiggz as much as you do, is obviously goofing around.

ouch
mm please, I can do more with Jiggs than talk about her :3

 

[PKBeam]

like getting 3-stocked with her
and whiffing Rests
and getting killed at 80

 

[Z'zgashi]

DK is OP: http://smashboards.com/threads/sktar-2-results.339612/

Dat 9th.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

like getting 3-stocked with her
and whiffing Rests
and getting killed at 80

>still better than lucas
>especially random lucases in the weakest state in the weakest country <3

(trashtalk of course, you're not the weakest, got tinny and shaya to carry you)

 

[Osennecho]

^Real talk I love fighting Lucas as Puff. I think I've lost like 2 or 3 times ever vs a Lucas using Puff including all friendlies against anyone. Now I haven't played a top Lucas, but the matchup is actually super fun.

 

[PKBeam]

lucas > jiggs
lucas can kill people
and he can survive past 100
and he has a safe-on-block move

also if you even seen australia's basic brawl you wouldn't even make that sort of comment, not even for trash talk (>_>)

^Real talk I love fighting Lucas as Puff. I think I've lost like 2 or 3 times ever vs a Lucas using Puff including all friendlies against anyone. Now I haven't played a top Lucas, but the matchup is actually super fun.

super fun for Lucas, dat +2

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I beat the best lucas in da country
he's a babe, but 'best in australia' is not saying much unfortunately

really need to get my ass to the states or japan sometime to spread the good word of jigglypuff

 

[Osennecho]

See.....Austrailia's brawl.....? >_> Try the #NJ scene?.... Are you really bragging about AU?... Not sure u could win a match let alone a set in NJ . Go play Grim or any solid Puff... We don't really die...(Except vs MK).. Anyways Lucas vs Puff is only +1 Lucas lmao. Super fun ^_^.

Also Grim, I look forward to what you can do with Puff in smash 4 (barring Puff forbid she not be there).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

aww ty osennecho
but I doubt I'm even going to buy smash 4 haha

IT'S UP TO YOU TO REP DA PUFF

#officialSWFpuffdiscussion

 

[PKBeam]

+1 Lucas

lolwut? how?
also im not bragging about Aus' BB, i'm saying that 80% of the time the only way i can have fun is either a TP, DCing a full group of noobs or infinite stalling two scrubs.

japan
jigglypuff

bro have u even seen their tier list?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

wifi is gross

and yeah, japan is dumb, puff's a hidden high tier

I'd be happy to explain why lucas doesn't **** puff, but I won't bore people with it here, feel free to message meeeee

 

[PKBeam]

-2 is not ****, it's a solid advantage
-.-

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd be happy to explain why lucas doesn't have a solid advantage over puff as well

I mean, if you're into that kind of thing, b-baka

 

[PKBeam]

do it here, i'm too lazy

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I guess there's nothing more interesting to talk about

Whenever I play against Lucas with Puff, they play pretty dumb imo
lots of dumb sh aerial approaches, puff beats a lot of that **** out on reaction with bair - namely sh nair cross-ups and falling dairs (when lucas is at that height, she can do a mid-air jump away from him to put him diagonally above and behind her; if he commits to the dair he gets bair'd in the head, if he tries anything else she can just fall with him (drift slightly away if he tries to go for a deep fair or w.e, again, this is all on reaction) and reset positions (and from here, she can cross-up or jump + dair as mix-ups)

lots of PK fire, which doesn't threaten Puff at all because when she's grounded she can power-shield and then SH towards lucas and make him feel all queasy on the inside
and if she's in the air she can mix-up between jumping and airdodging through it (and she can choose exactly where she will land regardless of the timing of the pk fire pretty much cause of her air mobility, the spacing is intense)

so yeah, I really don't think Lucas should play like that in this mu, just as a foreword

---

instead I would suggest a patient, micro-spacing game focusing on jab (!!! this move is really good at walling Puff out !!!) tilts, and the occasional disrespect
now a lot of people look at lucas' jab and think "Oh, it's fast on start-up and ending, has a perfect hitbox for stuffing puff and has in-built mix-ups, match-up solved"
but a lot of people were also nazis and all of them are wrong, all people everywhere

Puff's bread and butter approach is a short hop towards the opponent with her back facing them - not a SH bair or fair or some other dumb ****
from this position, Puff's bair and Lucas' jab are pretty close to even (puff's bair wins the tiny spacing game here by a little bit though <3), as in... if puff bairs first, she gets the hit, if lucas jabs first then he gets the hit

ASSUmING SOmEONE GETS HIT IN THIS EXCHANGE:
the cool thing here though is that Puff gets heaps off a bair and Lucas gets nothing off a jab
puff can just DI away and into the ground and take like 0.1268% damage, from here lucas can ftilt (punishable if Puff DIs the jab out of ftilt range), continue with the jab, dash back > pivot grab, empty hop, etc...
puff can empty hop (lots of options from here, you can drift away and be 100% safe, weave-in with a dair inbetween attacks, poke your face with nair, or SH fair if she gets a read), ftilt, grab, etc...

what I'm trying to illustrate here is that their options are comparable and the spacing game is very micro, you can pause a lucas vs. puff game at ANY point and create a web of options like this, they can both play super safe and small - puff is a little larger cause her hits actually set up for follow-ups and her grab is more viable but Lucas has the potential to throw in THE DISRESPECT (will elaborate further down)

WHAT IF NO ONE GETS HIT?
Puff is a beautiful specimen and is always safe when she wants to be
approaching with a short hop for her is not a commitment
so Lucas needs to understand this and really pay attention to small things, like walking towards and away from her to adjust spacing, empty hops and smart, quick shields
and from paying attention to those things, he needs to learn a lot about the puff, how they will react to things, what they want to do, etc...
cause if you just do auto-pilot spacing **** that is relatively safe, the Puff player will learn a lot more from each engagement than you will and will steam-roll you if she starts to gets momentum

WHAT EXACTLY DOES DISRESPECT ENTAIL?
okay so as an example dash attack *would* be good as a CQC mix-up against puff given the hitbox, but it's too slow and risky if you get the read wrong to be very useful
(all of his smashes are in a similar category)
WHAT THIS mEANS THO is that if Lucas is in Puff's head, he *can* mentally set the puff player up for these moves and they will really **** her up
so Lucas should really be looking out for chinks in the armour during the whole game, and occasionally threatening with his big-ass scary ****ing moves
it's basically what G&W has to do in every high tier mu... Lucas will NOT beat Puff off of the small hits, and he can't throw strong moves into his game without the mental aspect

the problem with this though is that puff is playing really close to Lucas a lot of the time - and like I said, he needs to disrespect with smashes/ftilt/fair... so SHE can disrespect back with Rest (putting herself inside lucas every now and then, not just throwing rest out willy nilly)

lucas' fair is pretty cute, but puff can react to the start-up and punish it pretty easily - it's like... if lucas gets the read, then it works, if Puff is playing safe it won't work; so it's alright to try and challenge her with it, but you don't want to actually threaten with the move itself regularly and say to yourself "This is my answer to Puff's x move" (cause puff will see that your game hinges on it, and will change to a safer, reactive style and you're stuffed) but rather threaten with the possibility that you'll use the move.
that would be a good thing to do

his bair is basically useless here, afaik, just in case there was any doubt there, he'll get uair'd or AD cross-up pivot grabbed any time he attempts it pretty much (depending on puff's positioning)

his uair is legitimately threatening though, and it hurts that she has to avoid it, forces her to the sides of the stage every time she gets hit up, which isn't a particularly dangerous position or anything, but it limits her options to some extent and makes maintaining momentum a little harder cause lucas can be like "No, in this position, *I* choose what happens next" and that's always a good thing to be able to say
However, she isn't completely helpless here (again, puff is godlike) she has a billion jumps and great air mobility, so she can bait out bad follow-ups from the lucas and fall past him but like
lucas has the advantage in this situation cause he can get a KO, while Puff's best reward is a single hit or being allowed back on-stage

a few extra random things...
-lucas can zair as he is being star KO'd by rest and it causes him to die faster (******** glitch, lol), which turns Rest into a trade at higher %s
it's not a huge problem though, and most lucases don't even know about it
-Lucas can double-jump out of the close-range game and land on a platform whenever he wants as an escape and it's pretty safe (gives up a bit of stage control, a lot if there is no platform to land on). It's just another tool he has to get inside Puff's head, play around with momentum, etc... etc...
-Puff gets more mileage out of a lead, imo. HOWEVER I can't go into detail about this cause I suck at running away with Puff so it's mostly theory-craft... but I do believe that the match-up tips in her favour when she doesn't have to approach (I feel this way about almost every puff match-up, fyi). She just has too many safe escape options, gives no ****s about "positional advantage" and is near impossible to trap

OFF-STAGE GAmE
they both recover for free most of the time when they have the option of going straight for the stage
lucas can get trapped on the ledge though, where as Puff can't - and puff can force him to bail out of an on-stage recovery and make him snap the ledge with rope snake just by being there
and puff can sometimes get silly gimps/big off-stage strings if JigglyChrist is on her side

-----------

ALL IN ALL THIS mATCH-UP IS FUN/10 FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED, EXCEPT THE TO BECAUSE HE LIKES IT WHEN GAmES FINISH QUICKLY

I didn't really go into detail about Puff's sh nair/bair mix-ups, follow-up game after aerials or pound (puff's *amazing* move; like... her version of Falco's lasers, Diddy's Nanas, marth's side-b, mk's everything, etc...) cause I forgot that people on smashboards aren't familiar with the basic puff stuff

but that should be enough, pretty sure I got at least over a million words

 

[PKBeam]

I guess there's nothing more interesting to talk about

Whenever I play against Lucas with Puff, they play pretty dumb imo
lots of dumb sh aerial approaches, puff beats a lot of that **** out on reaction with bair - namely sh nair cross-ups and falling dairs (when lucas is at that height, she can do a mid-air jump away from him to put him diagonally above and behind her; if he commits to the dair he gets bair'd in the head, if he tries anything else she can just fall with him (drift slightly away if he tries to go for a deep fair or w.e, again, this is all on reaction) and reset positions (and from here, she can cross-up or jump + dair as mix-ups)
lucas' approach options are pretty poor, SH Nair, FH Dair and SH AD are his best choices

lots of PK fire, which doesn't threaten Puff at all because when she's grounded she can power-shield and then SH towards lucas and make him feel all queasy on the inside PSing isn't always that easy, sometime you'll get hit by it, and you'll have to do a lot more than just SH in his direction to get close up, if they run towards you and SHWBPKF backwards puff can't really do much afaik
and if she's in the air she can mix-up between jumping and airdodging through it (and she can choose exactly where she will land regardless of the timing of the pk fire pretty much cause of her air mobility, the spacing is intense)

so yeah, I really don't think Lucas should play like that in this mu, just as a foreword

---

instead I would suggest a patient, micro-spacing game focusing on jab (!!! this move is really good at walling Puff out !!!) tilts, and the occasional disrespect
now a lot of people look at lucas' jab and think "Oh, it's fast on start-up and ending, has a perfect hitbox for stuffing puff and has in-built mix-ups, match-up solved"
but a lot of people were also nazis and all of them are wrong, all people everywhere

Puff's bread and butter approach is a short hop towards the opponent with her back facing them - not a SH bair or fair or some other dumb ****
from this position, Puff's bair and Lucas' jab are pretty close to even (puff's bair wins the tiny spacing game here by a little bit though <3), as in... if puff bairs first, she gets the hit, if lucas jabs first then he gets the hit what if we try to Fair your Bair? or pivot grab? SH-WB-PKF?

ASSUmING SOmEONE GETS HIT IN THIS EXCHANGE:
the cool thing here though is that Puff gets heaps off a bair and Lucas gets nothing off a jab we get damage.
puff can just DI away and into the ground and take like 0.1268% damage 6% for first two hits, from here lucas can ftilt (punishable if Puff DIs the jab out of ftilt range), continue with the jab, dash back > pivot grab, empty hop, etc...
puff can empty hop (lots of options from here, you can drift away and be 100% safe, weave-in with a dair inbetween attacks, poke your face with nair, or SH fair if she gets a read), ftilt, grab, etc...

what I'm trying to illustrate here is that their options are comparable and the spacing game is very micro, you can pause a lucas vs. puff game at ANY point and create a web of options like this, they can both play super safe and small - puff is a little larger cause her hits actually set up for follow-ups and her grab is more viable but Lucas has the potential to throw in THE DISRESPECT (will elaborate further down)

WHAT IF NO ONE GETS HIT?
Puff is a beautiful specimen and is always safe when she wants to be except when you whiff a Rest
approaching with a short hop for her is not a commitment
so Lucas needs to understand this and really pay attention to small things, like walking towards and away from her to adjust spacing, empty hops and smart, quick shields
and from paying attention to those things, he needs to learn a lot about the puff, how they will react to things, what they want to do, etc...
cause if you just do auto-pilot spacing **** that is relatively safe, the Puff player will learn a lot more from each engagement than you will and will steam-roll you if she starts to gets momentum

WHAT EXACTLY DOES DISRESPECT ENTAIL?
okay so as an example dash attack *would* be good as a CQC mix-up against puff given the hitbox, but it's too slow and risky if you get the read wrong to be very useful
(all of his smashes are in a similar category) Fsmash comes out pretty fast, it's punishable, but it outranges pretty much every attack, if Puff decides to commit to something
WHAT THIS mEANS THO is that if Lucas is in Puff's head, he *can* mentally set the puff player up for these moves and they will really **** her up
so Lucas should really be looking out for chinks in the armour during the whole game, and occasionally threatening with his big-*** scary ****ing moves
it's basically what G&W has to do in every high tier mu... Lucas will NOT beat Puff off of the small hits, and he can't throw strong moves into his game without the mental aspect

the problem with this though is that puff is playing really close to Lucas a lot of the time - and like I said, he needs to disrespect with smashes/ftilt/fair... so SHE can disrespect back with Rest (putting herself inside lucas every now and then, not just throwing rest out willy nilly)

lucas' fair is pretty cute, but puff can react to the start-up 8 frames? and punish it pretty easily - it's like... if lucas gets the read, then it works, if Puff is playing safe it won't work; so it's alright to try and challenge her with it, but you don't want to actually threaten with the move itself regularly and say to yourself "This is my answer to Puff's x move" (cause puff will see that your game hinges on it, and will change to a safer, reactive style and you're stuffed) but rather threaten with the possibility that you'll use the move.
that would be a good thing to do

his bair is basically useless here, afaik, just in case there was any doubt there, he'll get uair'd or AD cross-up pivot grabbed any time he attempts it pretty much (depending on puff's positioning)
bair is always useless except as an occasional mixup offstage

his uair is legitimately threatening though, and it hurts that she has to avoid it, forces her to the sides of the stage every time she gets hit up, which isn't a particularly dangerous position or anything, but it limits her options to some extent and makes maintaining momentum a little harder cause lucas can be like "No, in this position, *I* choose what happens next" and that's always a good thing to be able to say
However, she isn't completely helpless here (again, puff is godlike) she has a billion jumps and great air mobility, so she can bait out bad follow-ups from the lucas and fall past him but like
lucas has the advantage in this situation cause he can get a KO, while Puff's best reward is a single hit or being allowed back on-stage

a few extra random things...
-lucas can zair as he is being star KO'd by rest and it causes him to die faster (******** glitch, lol), which turns Rest into a trade at higher %s
it's not a huge problem though, and most lucases don't even know about it
-Lucas can double-jump out of the close-range game and land on a platform whenever he wants as an escape and it's pretty safe (gives up a bit of stage control, a lot if there is no platform to land on). It's just another tool he has to get inside Puff's head, play around with momentum, etc... etc...
-Puff gets more mileage out of a lead, imo. HOWEVER I can't go into detail about this cause I suck at running away with Puff so it's mostly theory-craft... but I do believe that the match-up tips in her favour when she doesn't have to approach (I feel this way about almost every puff match-up, fyi). She just has too many safe escape options, gives no ****s about "positional advantage" and is near impossible to trap

OFF-STAGE GAmE
they both recover for free most of the time when they have the option of going straight for the stage
lucas can get trapped on the ledge though, where as Puff can't - and puff can force him to bail out of an on-stage recovery and make him snap the ledge with rope snake just by being there
and puff can sometimes get silly gimps/big off-stage strings if JigglyChrist is on her side I doubt puff has any answer to Wavezap besides to try and read it.

-----------

ALL IN ALL THIS mATCH-UP IS FUN/10 FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED, EXCEPT THE TO BECAUSE HE LIKES IT WHEN GAmES FINISH QUICKLY

responses in bold
also you didn't mention Lucas can kill a heck of a lot easier than puff
convincing argument, but i have no idea about puff tho, if this was like Ness or something i would know more
needless to say Lucas beats Puff hard on the ground, but she doesn't have to fight there in this MU.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think I just died a little inside from the brevity of your response tbh

 

[PKBeam]

im trying to think
and i agree with most of your stuff (because IDK puff) but he can kill so much easier than puff, and that hurts her.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh I didn't see you responded in bold, derp

I cbf getting into a discussion on the finer details of a low tier mu, just felt like getting my word out there

Actually yes I can
-PS'ing is pretty easy
-you can't pivot-grab her out of the air reliably, and I already talked about fair
-you'll only hit with the first hit of jab a lot of the time, and 6% is still minuscule
-whiffing a rest isn't a problem with puff, it's a problem with the player imo
-yes, you can react to an 8-frame start-up
-she can aerial through any of lucas' ******** fly all over the stage ****, don't necessarily need to read it to do so, she can cover multiple options with ze aerialz

 

[PKBeam]

I still feel like it's a close +2. afaik Lucas has a response to at least most of puff's approaches, plus he doesn't have any problems killing and does so pretty well.

Ehh you're right, no one cares about low tiers, a puff vs Lucas mu merits as much discussion as goku in ssb4, that's probs why we're supposedly -2 against pika and ICs and -3 with sheik.

Now: discuss ICs in their own tier!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

eh, everyone I talk to about obscure puff match-ups thinks they beat puff hard until they play me pretty much, do you have any plans to travel interstate this year?

doesn't Lucas die off ftilt, jab and grab in the sheik mu? that's pretty horrendous

ICs suck but they are also sooooo good
/input

 

[Aidebit]

I think that IC's are actually pretty bad. Probably below Diddy.

But then you refuse to ban MK and instead restrict the stagelist, and add an LGL.

 

[PKBeam]

doesn't Lucas die off ftilt, jab and grab in the sheik mu? that's pretty horrendous

he gets GRDACUSed out of a grab, and by extension any grab setups sheik has.
not as bad as marth.
i live in australia.