Official SWF Tier List v8

[Grim Tuesday]

woah am I crazy or did shaya delete heaps of posts? XD

yes as bad as marth
gr > ftilt > grab
is as bad as gr > grab

 

[PKBeam]

Yeah I got infracted for minor spam.

Marth is 0-death in practice.
Sheik does no such thing with Ftilt. Grab is set up out of an Ftilt lock, which would be about 0-60%, most of that being from the Ftilt lock. After that it doesn't work.

Outside of grabby stuff Marth does so much better against Lucas than Sheek because he has the range to combat PKF and outranges Lucas overall, neither of which Sheek is capable of.

Sheik is closer to one of Lucas' worst -2s than a -3, but hey, who cares about low/mid tier MUs, so I guess we'll stay -3 with Sheek and never get that 0 with Pika that we deserve.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

so sheik can't grab lucas out of ftilt above 60%?
yeah, -3 is ridiculous

but honestly no one should care about the official match-up chart
pika/mk is even LOL *******

 

[Z'zgashi]

Grab is set up out of an Ftilt lock, which would be about 0-60%

Is this assuming good DI, or no DI. Cuz if youre assuming the Lucas is DI'ing well, then a suprise ftilt at a higher percent would still work just fine, especially if ftilt was still stale.

 

[infiniteV115]

Marth doesn't 0-death Lucas, he has to walk to get the regrab if the Lucas holds away when being GR'd.

Unless he gets a grab at 0 facing a walkoff, then yeah, it's a 0-death I guess XD

 

[Man Li Gi]

I think that IC's are actually pretty good. Probably above Diddy.

But then you refuse to ban MK and instead restrict the stagelist, and add an LGL.

There are not many good stages in Brawl or Melee for that matter. Many stages suffer from wall syndrome, sakuraitis, and walk of death. Also stages that don't fit those main archetypes have silly CoL or strange hazards. Banning MK is like banning Kabal from MK (I know so confusing but keep up). Planking is too strong in the defensive meta, so LGL is implemented to not have an awfully slow and stall heavy game.

woah am I crazy or did shaya delete heaps of posts? XD

I know. I was at 142 or 143 messages and now I am back at 140. It is almost like Shaya is actually doing his job now. I don't like it and it scares me.

 

[Aidebit]

There are not many good stages in Brawl or Melee for that matter. Many stages suffer from wall syndrome, sakuraitis, and walk of death. Also stages that don't fit those main archetypes have silly CoL or strange hazards. Banning MK is like banning Kabal from MK (I know so confusing but keep up). Planking is too strong in the defensive meta, so LGL is implemented to not have an awfully slow and stall heavy game.

Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar were fun stages to play on which were fairly competitive, it's just that MK really just destroys anyone whilst fighting on those stages. Rainbow Cruise alone can make IC's go down on the tier list. If Brinstar were playable, Lucas would have a viable counterpick for Pikachu, among changing the grounds for other match-ups. In my opinion, no characters can camp the ledge as hard as MK. MK has multiple options for getting back onto the stage, should the ledge be occupied when he has to get onto it. MK completely ruins the viability of multiple characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There's not really anything wrong with walk-offs or walls inherently
Planking isn't any stronger than the on-stage camping that the top tiers do, with the exception of mk's planking which is broken

we could have heaps more stages legal and still play competitively
but it's not objectively better or anything, just different

 

[Man Li Gi]

There's not really anything wrong with walk-offs or walls inherently
Planking isn't any stronger than the on-stage camping that the top tiers do, with the exception of mk's planking which is broken

we could have heaps more stages legal and still play competitively
but it's not objectively better or anything, just different

You seem to forget about KD3's chaingrab and how it infinites on walls and slides their opponents infinitely horizontally. What other stages are illegal and considered fun?
Marth does not camp, but has a strong plank game.

Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar were fun stages to play on which were fairly competitive, it's just that MK really just destroys anyone whilst fighting on those stages. Rainbow Cruise alone can make IC's go down on the tier list. If Brinstar were playable, Lucas would have a viable counterpick for Pikachu, among changing the grounds for other match-ups. In my opinion, no characters can camp the ledge as hard as MK. MK has multiple options for getting back onto the stage, should the ledge be occupied when he has to get onto it. MK completely ruins the viability of multiple characters.

WHOBO 5 was the last event that I have seen Brinstar and I believe that RC is a CP for some tourneys. Lucas will almost always lose to Pika regardless of the stage chosen. MK does ruin viability of many characters, but so do many other top tier characters and other top tier characters in different fighting games, but since this is smash (a series that should be synonymous and is the pure definition of unbalanced in any fighting game), I guess it is more prominent.

 

[Gardex]

MK isn't really THAT broken on RC.

It's not a polarizing stage, it's just a bit too "dumb" to most people.

**** you guys, I miss Rainbow.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, I didn't forget about Dedede's chain-grab

DK, Bowser, Wolf, Samus, mario, pokemon trainer, ganondorf, falcon, ike, link, lucario (sorta) and Luigi already auto-lose to DDD on his counterpick in the current meta
Ice Climbers don't care about walk-offs/walls vs. DDD for obvious reasons lol

Every other character that gets infinite'd (snake, yoshi, wario, rob, sonic, pit, diddy kong, toon link, peach and marth) has the tools to deal with Dedede and make it not unwinnable, if you actually consider which stages could become legal
distant planet: can DDD even CG up the slope? regardless, it gives the player items, and you can easily just always play on the right-hand side of the stage
mushroomy kingdom 1-1 forces Dedede to move, and he is the least mobile character in the game
green greens you can destroy the blocks
onett has cars every 10 seconds, and a great platform layout for safely pressuring DDD

walk-off stages like mario circuit are fine in non-"DDD/chain-grabbable character" match-ups, could always have a DDD clause (we've put in rules to limit mk so we can keep stuff legal, why not do the same with DDD?)

could also balance out by adding more stage bans

----

Fun is subjective
marth's planking is only as strong as his on-stage game

----

and yes, meta knight is that broken on RC actually
free win in every mu pretty much

 

[Man Li Gi]

No, I didn't forget about Dedede's chain-grab

DK, Bowser, Wolf, Samus, mario, pokemon trainer, ganondorf, falcon, ike, link, lucario (sorta) and Luigi already auto-lose to DDD on his counterpick in the current meta
Ice Climbers don't care about walk-offs/walls vs. DDD for obvious reasons lol

Every other character that gets infinite'd (snake, yoshi, wario, rob, sonic, pit, diddy kong, toon link, peach and marth) has the tools to deal with Dedede and make it not unwinnable, if you actually consider which stages could become legal
distant planet: can DDD even CG up the slope? regardless, it gives the player items, and you can easily just always play on the right-hand side of the stage
mushroomy kingdom 1-1 forces Dedede to move, and he is the least mobile character in the game
green greens you can destroy the blocks
onett has cars every 10 seconds, and a great platform layout for safely pressuring DDD

walk-off stages like mario circuit are fine in non-DDD/chain-grabbable character match-ups, could always have a DDD clause (we've put in rules to limit mk so we can keep stuff legal, why not do the same with DDD?)

could also balance out by adding more stage bans

----

Fun is subjective

----

and yes, meta knight is that broken on RC actually
free win in every mu pretty much

KD3 can CG up and down slopes. By the the time you try to destroy the blocks, you have been infinited. Only one time have I seen a stupid KD3 drop the CG on a DK though (against OOK on GG). On Mushroom, KD3 can CG, then b-throw or f-throw accordingly. Onett has one of the dumbest platform layouts and a stupid cars. NPC would be better if the UC wasn't so lethal and CoL options provided. It would also make Falco's kill potential drop. There are already clauses against KD3 (most notable for some tourneys are ban of the SS CG). Fun is subjective, and I enjoy subjectively beating my opponents silly on a stage where no johns can given. ZSS, Marth, Wario (sometimes) can beat MK on RC.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I really hope I'm being trolled

NPC? Really? lol.

 

[Man Li Gi]

You are, but suggesting something outlandish as Onett also means I am getting trolled. What makes Onett seem viable, but not NPC?

Unrelated: watch Dr. PP's interview with MLG. There are not enough towels and buckets in the world for this man.

 

[Delta-cod]

By the the time you try to destroy the blocks, you have been infinited.

wat. Break them while not being next to DDD, lol. He's slow, just stay on the opposite side of the blocks and break them. Or wait for apples. Or just use a projectile to break them in the first place.

Approaching anyone one the sides is more dangerous than DDD CGs against the blocks, lol.

 

[Shaya]

I know. I was at 142 or 143 messages and now I am back at 140. It is almost like Shaya is actually doing his job now. I don't like it and it scares me.

I resent this statement and you should feel bad for making it.

Marth doesn't exactly 0-death lucas, it's more like
fthrow -> fsmash, they do a bad air dodge > regrab > air release chain grab them to the ledge > down air them like the squirtle wannabe they are > fall down and tank the up b/side b their jump > stock. Same thing applies to Ness but it's a lot easier. GR dair on lucas is around MK level hard perhaps slightly harder.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Say you main someone who, I don't know, gets stuffed by the KD3 CG and has no real projectile, you cannot destroy all the blocks in time as KD3's will try and force a mistimed jump to the other side and continue the CG. The one exception, again, is the KD3 against OOK.

I resent this statement and you should feel bad for making it.

I guess I should not assume, but what happened to my posts then?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You are, but suggesting something outlandish as Onett also means I am getting trolled. What makes Onett seem viable, but not NPC?

Onett is janky, sure, but you can have competitive matches on it
NPC just turns into running away

 

[Man Li Gi]

Onett is janky, sure, but you can have competitive matches on it
NPC just turns into running away

Both are janky and have plenty of elements that hold it back from being played competitively. Onett has is walk off which eliminates any chance of a meteor smash (which is detrimental to some characters).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

and heaven forbid a character is nerfed by the stage list


you're attitude towards stage legality is nonsensical and arbitrary, soz bro

 

[Shaya]

I guess I should not assume, but what happened to my posts then?

You assumed right in that regard, they were deleted for being worthless. "Actually doing his job" is facetious/rude.
-

A lot of stages are competitive in the sense that two people of equal skill for that stage playing each other should have stable results. Our scene defines such stages as "extra-curricular activities", skillsets which are not common throughout the game hence shouldn't be focused on in what we define as our competitive repertoire. I've said this countless times in the past, but a stage like Pokemon Stadium 2 has more depth to it than every other stage and doesn't overtly tip the scales in one's favour like many of our legal stages do, hence why it'll always be in my mind one of the most perfect neutral stages in the game. However, we don't play around the notion of "neutrals" anymore. I don't vehemently argue that it should be legal at this point, in fact I'd probably state that it shouldn't be legal - because the uniqueness of the stage detracts from how we envision smash being played in a somewhat traditional fighter sense.

 

[Man Li Gi]

and heaven forbid a character is nerfed by the stage list


you're attitude towards stage legality is nonsensical and arbitrary, soz bro

You are arguing (I do not want to assume seriously) that Onett is a good stage. I only brought up a random stage (not completely random though because I was thinking about the Mother series also). Gengar would do great on NPC for that matter as there is a lot of open space and then stalling can take place. In fact, the characters you mentioned would benefit from NPC being implemented.

You assumed right in that regard, they were deleted for being worthless. "Actually doing his job" is facetious/rude.
-
I have been a sarcastic person in many of my posts, but now that it points at you (lightly) there is a problem? Strike me down by lightning because I have used the forbidden art and evil of sarcasm.
A lot of stages are competitive in the sense that two people of equal skill for that stage playing each other should have stable results. Our scene defines such stages as "extra-curricular activities", skillsets which are not common throughout the game hence shouldn't be focused on in what we define as our competitive repertoire. I've said this countless times in the past, but a stage like Pokemon Stadium 2 has more depth to it than every other stage and doesn't overtly tip the scales in one's favour like many of our legal stages do, hence why it'll always be in my mind one of the most perfect neutral stages in the game. However, we don't play around the notion of "neutrals" anymore. I don't vehemently argue that it should be legal at this point, in fact I'd probably state that it shouldn't be legal - because the uniqueness of the stage detracts from how we envision smash being played in a somewhat traditional fighter sense. I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but either way, Smash should not just be relegated as a TFG. Smash is a game that brings nubs and pros together and even the communities that spawned after that is quite inclusive. Being a part of the MK and VF forums and tourneys (never placed well or got any recording since I was not good), I realized how exclusive the other communities are while Smash is notably inclusive.

I do enjoy PS2, but I do also agree that the air and electric transformations kind of kill the pace of the game.

 

[Desu~]

If things are getting THIS complicated about stage legality and whatnot, I'll just suggest we stop all these nonsensical arguments and legalize Hannenbow for competitive play.

Seriously, I've been looking forward to this for ages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You are arguing (I do not want to assume seriously) that Onett is a good stage. I only brought up a random stage (not completely random though because I was thinking about the Mother series also). Gengar would do great on NPC for that matter as there is a lot of open space and then stalling can take place. In fact, the characters you mentioned would benefit from NPC being implemented.

There are no good and bad stages, there are stages that are good and bad for different things. It is a stage you can compete on successfully though.

I was saying those characters are nerfed by the current stage list

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If things are getting THIS complicated about stage legality and whatnot, I'll just suggest we stop all these nonsensical arguments and legalize Hannenbow for competitive play.

Seriously, I've been looking forward to this for ages.

Yes.

All of my Yes.

 

[Man Li Gi]

There are no good and bad stages, there are stages that are good and bad for different things. It is a stage you can compete on successfully though.

That is like saying "there are not such thing as good or bad characters, they are all equal and if enough practice is put into the character, they are top tier." Stages are the 3rd most important thing in matches (first the payer, 2nd character). They hold a lot of power how matchups are approached especially a place like freaking Onett.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

there's no such things as good or bad characters either
but there are characters that are bad for competition within our current rules

onett similarly isn't a bad stage
it's just not a stage that the majority of the community wants to play on, and that's fine

 

[Man Li Gi]

I call characters that has plenty of potential moveset(s) drastically under utilised for the purposes of just trying to represent a franchise better a bad/unoriginal character (TL/YL, Ganondorf is fun to play with, but let's be real, Mewtwo, Falco).
I also call characters that are better left in a body bag also bad (the hyrule trio, PT is fun with squirtle, Mario, Gengar was nerfed too hard to be good, CF also suffers from sakuraitis, Bowser, and the GR duo). Nonetheless, realizing their flaws and still winning is what I like doing anyway. I feel winning with a good character feels too easy, and when it is too easy, I need a challenge hence bad characters are my main choice.

Now onto, I guess only arguing how Onett is garbage, a low ceiling (really low), lack of meteor smash opportunity, wall syndrome, stage hazards doing 30%,strange overhangs, platforms that don't have any flow and actually get in the pace of the game is just plain silly to me. It benefits aerial opponents greatly and chaingrabbers also. That does not sound appealing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Really? Really? Stage play is dead, DEAD.

Reason being the fact most top players didn't want to learn them and blamed the "less skilled" player's knowledge about a deep stage for their loss, and ultimately they won the argument because they are the "more skilled" players.

Also, common Fighting Games' mechanics.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Really? Really? Stage play is dead, DEAD.

Reason being the fact most top players didn't want to learn them and blamed the "less skilled" player's knowledge about a deep stage for their loss, and ultimately they won the argument because they are the "more skilled" players.

Also, common Fighting Games' mechanics.

Hence why I said, in a trolling manner, but nonetheless that NPC is not a bad option. PS2 is also a decent stage. But there are major problems with stages like Pirate Ship as the boat is a OHKO, stopping to avoid 35-55% damaging bombs, and some sort of catapult flinger that is also a potential OHKO. I played all the stages numerous times and do have reasons why they are not legal. The "skilled" players probably already pointed the numerous flaws in most stages.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The keel is avoidable, rudder camping is beatable (or bannable), and if you die for the catapult you just weren't paying attention.
Bombs are the best argument so far, but even then you can avoid them if you pay attention for one second and are able to calculate their trajectory (or just climb the mast, they can't reach you up there).

Most of the times when people claim "flaws" they just didn't want to adapt.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well all hazards are avoidable... if you are facing a brain dead opponent who would try to force you into the hazard and it provides extra unnecessary stress to an already hard to beat opponent. The term neutral aptly applies to BF FD SV as they have no extra hazards nor are they outright advantageous (I believe).

 

[PKBeam]

Marth doesn't 0-death Lucas, he has to walk to get the regrab if the Lucas holds away when being GR'd.

Unless he gets a grab at 0 facing a walkoff, then yeah, it's a 0-death I guess XD

in practice, it's generally considered one grab = death. marth can regrab without walking (but he inches forward automatically) if he buffers it correctly (Lucas slides out of his grab range in the last few frames iirc).

so sheik can't grab lucas out of ftilt above 60%?
yeah, -3 is ridiculous

Sheik we originally had at -2, but the Sheik panel brought up some very good points. They claim that a grab for Sheik should lead to death just as reliably as Marth since Sheik can regrab even the air release, and DACUS it as well. Sheik also gets those grabs easier than Marth does.

no-one cares about lucas. also i believe the 60% is including a finisher. this was a discussion on v2 MU chart but I assume the same thing would've happened during v3 discussion, if there was one.

GR dair on lucas

I highly doubt that's guaranteed, and if it isn't, then there's really no chance that it will connect except if they don't know about it.

The keel is avoidable, rudder camping is beatable (or bannable), and if you die for the catapult you just weren't paying attention.
Bombs are the best argument so far, but even then you can avoid them if you pay attention for one second and are able to calculate their trajectory (or just climb the mast, they can't reach you up there).

Most of the times when people claim "flaws" they just didn't want to adapt.

the player with higher port priority can just grab you and let a bomb land on you. and if you try to just camp out at the mast you'll get platform pressured.

Well all hazards are avoidable... if you are facing a brain dead opponent who would try to force you into the hazard and provide extra unnecessary stress to an already hard to beat opponent. The term neutral aptly applies to BF FD SV as they have no extra hazards nor are they outright advantageous (I believe).

FD is "outright advantageous" to many campy characters and the dreaded ICs.

 

[1PokeMastr]

[quote="Shaya, post: 16273811, member: 64230" GR dair on lucas is around MK level hard perhaps slightly harder.[/quote]


It's actually a hell of a lot easier, Lucas has a smaller arc than Mk does, meaning Marth has to dash less distance.

 

[PKBeam]

They have the same air release?

 

[Ghostbone]

Ooo stage discussion.

Ima chip in a bit.

Walk-offs aren't necessarily bad for competition, but smash games are designed with recoveries in mind, overall the game is far more balanced on stages like Battlefield than stages like Bridge of Eldin. Competitive smash is a game where we have to pick and choose what we feel is reasonable in a tournament environment, and what's conducive to competitive gameplay.
Pirate ship is kinda a weird middle ground between the two, but water camping's pretty OP and stuff so it's a lot closer to the banworthy subset of stages rather than reasonable tourney stages.

Things that aren't conducive to competitively gameplay include randomness that arbitrarily helps one player over another (items, halberd, Pictochat, WarioWare, to an extent stuff like Norfair where one player will gain an advantage based on their positioning, because you can't predict where the lava will come from)
Most moving stages are uncompetitive since they force characters out of neutral position which leads to free punishes for the more mobile character. Basically you don't have to outplay your opponent to gain a significant advantage.
And of course stages with circles (really any stage dominated by an incredibly simple strategy, which extends to a stage like Onett or Corneria, or any stage with easy sharking)

Then there are cases like Pokemon Stadium 2, which is generally a fine stage, and is even one of the most balanced in terms of being neutral in most matchups, but during transformations falls into the category of a stage dominated by a few simple strategies, overall it doesn't really add much when PS1 already exists.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Then there are cases like Pokemon Stadium 2, which is generally a fine stage, and is even one of the most balanced in terms of being neutral in most matchups, but during transformations falls into the category of a stage dominated by a few simple strategies, overall it doesn't really add much when PS1 already exists.

What do you mean it "doesn't really add much"

It adds DACUS ON ICE

That's enough imo

#legalizePS2

 

[Man Li Gi]

FD is "outright advantageous" to many campy characters and the dreaded ICs.

The reason why the top tiers are top tier is because they can fare well pretty much anywhere, almost independent of any stage. If we are talking about IC's though, they should fare better on SV and BF as they abuse their uair and force approaches.

 

[infiniteV115]

in practice, it's generally considered one grab = death. marth can regrab without walking (but he inches forward automatically) if he buffers it correctly (Lucas slides out of his grab range in the last few frames iirc).

One grab =/= death, unless the Lucas is already at/near kill %s. With good mashing, the pummels travelling all the way across a stage like FD will deal, at most, 50% (and in the case that the pummels sum to 50%, the grab probably started when Lucas was already around 70+). Coupled with the possibility of air release, it's hardly the case that one grab will lead to death.

I highly doubt that's guaranteed, and if it isn't, then there's really no chance that it will connect except if they don't know about it.

It's actually a hell of a lot easier, Lucas has a smaller arc than Mk does, meaning Marth has to dash less distance.

They have the same air release?

Yes, Lucas and MK have similar air release trajectories, and the same frame disadvantage off an air release (either that or the PKKids have a larger frame disadvantage off air release than MK, I forget but I'm pretty sure it's the same)
I know this because ZSS gets an air release chaingrab on MK, Pikachu, Squirtle and Lucas by dash grabbing. She also gets fair on all of them (except for Pikachu), but the fair on MK is much harder than the fair on Lucas, because he doesn't go as far. Thus the same probably applies to Marth's dair off an air release

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, I didn't forget about Dedede's chain-grab

DK, Bowser, Wolf, Samus, mario, pokemon trainer, ganondorf, falcon, ike, link, lucario (sorta) and Luigi already auto-lose to DDD on his counterpick in the current meta
Ice Climbers don't care about walk-offs/walls vs. DDD for obvious reasons lol

Every other character that gets infinite'd (snake, yoshi, wario, rob, sonic, pit, diddy kong, toon link, peach and marth) has the tools to deal with Dedede and make it not unwinnable, if you actually consider which stages could become legal
distant planet: can DDD even CG up the slope? regardless, it gives the player items, and you can easily just always play on the right-hand side of the stage
mushroomy kingdom 1-1 forces Dedede to move, and he is the least mobile character in the game
green greens you can destroy the blocks
onett has cars every 10 seconds, and a great platform layout for safely pressuring DDD

walk-off stages like mario circuit are fine in non-"DDD/chain-grabbable character" match-ups, could always have a DDD clause (we've put in rules to limit mk so we can keep stuff legal, why not do the same with DDD?)

could also balance out by adding more stage bans

----

Fun is subjective
marth's planking is only as strong as his on-stage game

----

and yes, meta knight is that broken on RC actually
free win in every mu pretty much

Lucario doesn't auto lose to D3 on his CP.

Not with the shrinking stage-lists.