Official SWF Tier List v8

[LiteralGrill]

As someone who still to this day plays PSA competitively, I have to agree lol. There are so many just straight up stupidly obviously bad changes they made and just such a huge power creep for the top 10 or so in that game its dumb. I love the actual feel and gameplay of that game, but the balance is horrific and its full of stupid **** and glitches.

Dude... You don't remember me do you? AylasHero? Nice to run into you on smashboards, you were always one of the smarter people over there Did that patch ever come in? I get verbally assaulted/trolled whenever I ask so I've not been checking up.

But you can definitely agree that we gotta hope Sakurai doesn't go that route or we're screwed...

You can do rising pound with Jigglypuff about 15 times in a row w/o jumping before you'd die under the stage. Then using those 5 jumps you can get back up to the ledge while juking your opponent out to which ledge you're going to grab like 3 times. Dunno if this counts as stalling though, (you can avoid scourging by grabbing the ledge you originally started on)

But yes, playing Jigglypuff "gay" in this game is the only way to play her effectively. Maybe I would consider helping out more but Im too busy w/ college life. Somehow I'm still considered one of the best Puffs, thats a problem, it means all the other puff mains really need to step it up.

I have spent a LOT of time with Puff in the past in Brawl, I love my low tiers, but I admit I never got her right. I agree though that if someone could really poor proper time into her she could rise, things like perfect rest, footstool to jab lock combos and all of that are CRAZY difficult, but not impossible. Plus, I don't mind her matchup against Diddy, always did really well there.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ah! Aylas! I definitely remember you, I entered a few of your tournaments and such! I have a confidence in Sakurai that, due to the help he has making this and the vast amount of weight this game has riding on its shoulders, that he'll do his best to really make sure hes making the right decisions and changes to make this game good. If this game ends up being bad, it will definitely be dark times for not only smash, but also Nintendo and the platform fighter genre as a whole.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can do rising pound with Jigglypuff about 15 times in a row w/o jumping before you'd die under the stage. Then using those 5 jumps you can get back up to the ledge while juking your opponent out to which ledge you're going to grab like 3 times. Dunno if this counts as stalling though, (you can avoid scourging by grabbing the ledge you originally started on)

This is basically the **** I need to start doing with the lead

I have spent a LOT of time with Puff in the past in Brawl, I love my low tiers, but I admit I never got her right. I agree though that if someone could really poor proper time into her she could rise, things like perfect rest, footstool to jab lock combos and all of that are CRAZY difficult, but not impossible. Plus, I don't mind her matchup against Diddy, always did really well there.

Footstool to jab lock is sub-optimal tbh, I'd rather get an aerial string/frame trap
Rest is something I feel I have almost perfected (last time I played I KO'd with it almost every stock at around 80%~), it's all a matter of getting ONE read on your opponent, if you know they are going to air-dodge, spot-dodge or attempt an attack that you can out-speed, then you just drift into them and wait

most Diddy players suck at the match-up, it's all about camping super hard (throwing bananas up instead of forwards) and blocking everything with fair, I feel it's actually one of her harder match-ups cause Diddy can keep constant pressure on her, but that's probably an anomaly with the way I play

 

[Ghostbone]

Bit late but people were talking about how general fighting game community would look down upon smash's balance.

Aside from MK, are you really trying to say that either Melee or Brawl are less balanced than SFIII or MvC2? 2 extremely popular games in their prime? rofl.

Melee's balance is fine (not perfect, but fine), Brawl's balance without MK (and in theory without ICs but it's too hard for them to continually adapt to a variety of character weights) is fine.

 

[Attila_]

Melee's balance is fine (not perfect, but fine), Brawl's balance without MK (and in theory without ICs but it's too hard for them to continually adapt to a variety of character weights) is fine.

i think this point is really silly. most good ic mains have no problem switching between characters. if this is an issue, then they should main someone else.

although i think the ics have a number of even mus, so they wouldnt be too much of a problem. much similar to fox in melee, who is the best, but even enough that its a non-issue.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox is arguably the best
but yeah, ics are fine
especially with mk banned, can take them to jankier stages

 

[Ghostbone]

i think this point is really silly. most good ic mains have no problem switching between characters. if this is an issue, then they should main someone else.

Considering NAKAT and Vinnie mess up chaingrabs vs non-MK characters (and vs MK on sloped stages) fairly often.........

Evidence isn't on your side?

It's not necessarily messing up the actual chain-grab once you get into the rhythm, it's mostly messing up the set-ups/start of it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Vinnie is especially guilty of it

 

[Attila_]

9B don't mess up no grab.

 

[Shaya]

9B don't mess up no grab.

Except against Snake apparently.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've seen 9B drop grabs plenty of times tbh

 

[Z'zgashi]

I drop grabs.

 

[Attila_]

Except against Snake apparently.

He never dropped me :'(

 

[Grim Tuesday]

should've screamed in his ear

 

[Sunnysunny]

Slap remote out of opponents hand.
Kill popo.
Taunt and claim you won because of your pure skill.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

my favourite method is actually sitting deathly still for the first ~50% or so and then quickly turning to stare your opponent in the eye and mash wildly

helps if you're a massive black dude

(I'm not)

 

[Desu~]

So this is how competitive play works out.

I'm totally disappointed in you guys.

You were my models.

 

[Djent]

Do you think that without a Top8 Olimar or Marth in APEX this year...
Diddy should steal the Olimar #3 spot and Snake the #5 from Marth ? Maybe is that out of question but what I think is:

I really hate play against Marth, such a good character. But i know too that I'm far away from Brawl top-professional gameplay.
And most close the top professional level, worse is Marth.
In a scenario with so many MK a character greatness should be measured in how well he can pass through them.
That said, I still think his right position for the metagame is #7, the last top tier.

TBH I think Snake & Diddy are spots 3 & 4 at this point. Snake has the second best ICs MU of any solo-viable character, and avoids getting destroyed by Meta Knight. Diddy has slightly more trouble vs. MK, but still does very respectably, and can also handle ICs pretty well. Meanwhile, Olimar loses solidly to both S-tiers if the players know what they're doing. He's still better than the rest of the cast, but you just can't hold the #3 spot if you get bodied by the two most important characters.

Apex top 8 by main character had 4 MKs, 2 ICs, 1 Snake, and 1 Diddy. This isn't conclusive evidence for my tiering claims, but it is a nice illustration of what this game is becoming at the highest level: your MK/ICs matchups are the only ones that really matter. Other characters have better overall MU spreads than Snake/Diddy, but you won't see them in top 8 as often because they'll probably lose to one of the S-tier characters before they get there. I'll adjust my claims if future majors pan out differently, but I suspect this Apex was pretty representative.

Marth is...weird. Pretty even vs. the other A-tiers, but shouldn't win very often against either S-tier (especially MK). I think Wario is in a similar situation and so is of comparable viability. I'm inclined to put Falco and Olimar above Marth, and possibly Pikachu as well (though the last one is really hard to judge). ZSS is worse than both Marth & Wario, but only because she struggles more against the A-tiers while doing comparatively poorly vs. the S-tiers.

My stab at a tier list:
S MK, ICs
A+ Snake, Diddy, Oli
A- Falco, Pika
B Marth, Wario, ZSS

 

[LiteralGrill]

Rest is something I feel I have almost perfected (last time I played I KO'd with it almost every stock at around 80%~), it's all a matter of getting ONE read on your opponent, if you know they are going to air-dodge, spot-dodge or attempt an attack that you can out-speed, then you just drift into them and wait

I meant perfect rest as a specific technique, a lot of characters can attack you and if you hit rest at the right time it hurts them. It means you can kill your opponent whenever they attack you (with a large number of attacks surprisingly.) Being able to kill your opponent almost always whenever they attack you is kinda awesome, the timing is just insane, I can barely do it right on Marth's attacks like 25% of the time Darn my disabled hands...

 

[Osennecho]

^Are you referring to DI'ing into rest like with TLs Fsmash if they go for the 2nd hit and some characters jabs etc? Or are you referring to the one frame window of invincibility that rest carries with it b4 it hits on frame 2? I've hit a Mario using dsmash with rest that way once, but it's not exactly useable in that manner...

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm not exactly sure how to explain it, you can just use Rest at perfect moments while being attacked and it lands on the opponent killing them. Yeah you gotta take a little % to do it, but it's worth it. I had an idea that it could actually be done against MK's nado but my fingers suck too much to get the timing down. I gotta get a good way to record off my wii so I could show it off (though I bet someone else already knows it/it's been done).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If the rest hits then you wouldn't take any %
if you took %, there is no way the rest hit (outside of like, Fox's lasers, etc...)

knowing when rest can interrupt moves is important, but it's still a matter of being on your opponent's hurtbox (either through drifting into them or having them extend the hurtbox)

she can actually rest mk out of tornado if you get trapped in it properly
you can't jump into it, you have to come from above and fall through him as you rest

 

[DeLux]

As a top MT/LT main of a character, sometimes it's really luck of the draw when it comes to performance at a major.

This past apex I only lost to DeLux, in the Zelda vs ICs matchup. I personally know I could've beaten people in the bracket, but I ran into a tough MU and was beaten so I drowned in pools. It makes the runs that MT/LT players that much more magical when they happen.

I blame bracket pools. Seriously. I felt so bad.

To be fair, it seemed like you lost more because of your own crucial mistakes than the matchup being bad(especially game 1).

....I'm still sad that I got you in my pool(You were a bigger threat than ADHD to me)

I don't know, I felt like I got super outplayed the whole entire time, especially the part about not knowing how to CG haha

Game 1 ripped at my heart lmao. It burned!!!

I take that as a tremendous complement dude!! I saw you in my pool and immediately was all "Oh geez.....my pool is SUPER LOADED"

I didn't want to play any of you guys

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why are ICs any harder for zelda than mk or snake?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because you can do stuff against MK (specially unexperienced ones), and find gaps between Snake's camping (plus gimps).

ICs can literally just rush down to grab you, be smart with their shield and they'll eventually find the grab with ease.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I blame bracket pools. Seriously. I felt so bad.



I don't know, I felt like I got super outplayed the whole entire time, especially the part about not knowing how to CG haha



I didn't want to play any of you guys

The set was good lmao. I ran out of mashing power in the last game. So sad! Felt like I actually mashed out of a ton of grabs lol. Hooray Mario Party!!

Yea, Kyo nailed it. MK is still MK but he has moments. Snake is snack. Fun stuff there. ICs just eventually corner you and then you're sad as Zelda.

 

[PKBeam]

zelda? just go . oli wrex her. no need for any ICs or MK or snake.
zelda is fun to play as, it's a shame she's bad.

 

[Desu~]

I'm not exactly sure how to explain it, you can just use Rest at perfect moments while being attacked and it lands on the opponent killing them. Yeah you gotta take a little % to do it, but it's worth it. I had an idea that it could actually be done against MK's nado but my fingers suck too much to get the timing down. I gotta get a good way to record off my wii so I could show it off (though I bet someone else already knows it/it's been done).

Woah wait... what?

I don't think this is even making sense at all.
I believe Jiggs gets invincibility frames the same time she hits someone with rest.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Woah wait... what?

I don't think this is even making sense at all.
I believe Jiggs gets invincibility frames the same time she hits someone with rest.

I'm not sure how to explain it, you can do rest WHILE TAKING HITS if you use it frame perfect. Does that make sense? It works best on multihit attacks but I've managed it a couple times on one hit attacks too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, you can't. Trust, dude.

The first few frames of Rest are invincible (I think it's about 13 or something, can't remember exactly - it's actually really annoying though cause those frames usually just mean that you tank some weak hit, and then your opponent is like "Oh, he rested, I can punish hard"), and the hitbox comes out on Frame 2

If someone hits you during frame 2 (and usually 1 as well except in exceedingly rare cases) with a move that extendes their hurtbox, they will get Rested and Puff will take no damage/knockback/etc... due to being invincible.
Because Rest is invincible frame 1, you can often get hit by one part of a multi-hit attack, DI into the opponent and Rest inbetween hits.

But it's impossible to hit someone with Rest and take damage at the same time.

I personally don't feel the risk is worth it to go for that type of Rest a lot of the time, I tend to use it as a punish so I can be sure it will hit. If I'm trying to interrupt a move with it, I usually need to read it to be able to get the timing and spacing just right, because the fact that you're challenging a hitbox with it usually means that you're not inside the opponent, but at the tip of their spacing range (otherwise, why would they attack instead of shield/grab/jump/etc...?)

 

[Osennecho]

*Edit* Grim with dat Snipe..... He basically said what I did....
Just to add one more thing, it is possible you took damage from the first hit or second etc and then rested them before the next while not taking damage from it during say a jab.

 

[Thor]

I'm not sure how to explain it, you can do rest WHILE TAKING HITS if you use it frame perfect. Does that make sense? It works best on multihit attacks but I've managed it a couple times on one hit attacks too.

Are you like crouch-cancelling or some silly nonsense like that? Cuz that's not trading, that's just, being hit, lowered hitstun so you counter with Rest... that's like, the hitboxes on the opponent's attacks aren't continuous enough... and you can clank but it's literally impossible to trade Rest with something else where you are actually knocked out of the Rest AND the hitbox hits them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Crouch cancelling ain't in Brawl d00d

 

[Psychoace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GuV42hx1hA

 

[Grim Tuesday]

meh, seen it before
relatively useless
doesn't lower hitstun

thought it was pretty obvious in context that I was talking about melee's crouch canceling

 

[Thor]

Well duh you can't CC like in Melee. I read CCing reduces hitstun by 33%, although apparently it's hitlag, then... whatever, still might allow a Rest where one doesn't fit.

CCing in SSB64 is the best though. Surviving those Falcon Punches at stupid high percents is so funny.

In all seriousness though, "randomly" resting like that is a bad idea, if you miss, and they notice quickly, it's fsmash city (or I guess dsmash for Wolf and usmash for Fox).

 

[Osennecho]

^Like fully charged Fsmash from Ganon killing Puff at like 28%? I forget what exactly, but I think I went from middle/other side of FD to the corner and died once, sub 30 (before hit). +_+... It was dumb.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

No good Puff is going to randomly Rest, they'll only go for it when it's guaranteed.

That being said, I am not a good Puff, and will randomly Rest all the time.

 

[Thor]

I randomly rest too whenever I play Puff. That's cuz I'm a bad Puff and also cuz I only play Puff vs really bad people, like people who think Snake's ftilt or missile (side+b) is a great punish. Then I once again laugh that they can't use a c-stick.

A good Puff might also go for the death or glory thing, if they've been down the whole set and have brought it back, so guaranteed might be a strong word (ex: in Melee I've seen Hbox go for random Rest setups cuz he really needs them, usually they fail but some of them work spectacularly). But I do understand your point.

Also Oschenno why do they not reverse a Warlock Punch (or at least utilt)? Have they no style? Or is the KO percentage really that different (and that tight)?

 

[Osennecho]

It's actually quite different. Puff is so light that it shows more-so on her than most characters. At the time I don't think either of us expected it to kill, but I could be wrong (I would have survived the other two---Well I never was hit by utilt so I don't exactly know it's knock back). Also, he did main Ganon so he may have known it would kill or come close. I personally think he did it for the extra damage since damage is so precious for characters like Ganon. Since it was fairly serious as it was his main and my main/secondary, he picked the best option available rather than the most stylish one. #HyruleTierPride

No good Puff is going to randomly Rest, they'll only go for it when it's guaranteed.

Nahhh... Sometimes you can "feel the rest" when it isn't guaranteed. In cases like that I often go for it (but I'm also not a good Puff). It's like a pseudo guarantee imo. It's hard to explain, but I'm sure in your time playing Puff you've had this feeling before and I'd bet it's the same for those who truly are good Puffs.