Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[NickRiddle]

Oh OK

Problem solved.

 

[pidgezero_one]

It nice to see appreciation sometimes. It isn't easy looking after such as active forum with so few of us putting forth effort. Meanwhile, those of us who do are lashed at and insulted constantly, having to deal with people who are being malicious and immature for no justifiable reason. It's as if people don't think of us as humans, as if we aren't here because we're just individuals who love this game and want to help its community prosper. Equals, you could say, just some of us being more proactive while others being more social or informative. But I don't mean to be a hypocrite, so as intriguing as this topic may be, we should really get back to the topic of the thread now.

I know that feel bro. I used to mod gaia online's general discussion. None of you guys ever infract me but when you do I at least don't ***** about it

Also can someone explain toon link vs mk

 

[NH Cody]

Quest: what specifically do you think is "wrong" with TL's matchup chart? Probably the glaring +1 vs ICs, but anything else?

everything. there are like 9 disadvantageous MUs on the chart. that's just wrong and unrealistic

tl loses to falco slightly, zss, snake, maybe wario, and mk...and LOL at samus going even with toon link u guys r funny 1s

 

[Krynxe]

Yeah I can't say I agree with D3 being +1 on TL. I'd definitely call it even, since TL definitely has the tools to fight D3 just fine. People often have the bad judgement to assume any character that can be chain-grabbed is instantly advantageous for D3, but that just being ignorant to not only D3 but the other character as well. TL has an incredibly good keep away game and rarely gets grabbed (ideally) due to being so airborne and using projectiles to limit D3, while D3's size and mobility make him very vulnerable to projectiles spam which can also clash with some of his good spacing moves like ftilt. Zair also hits D3 when TL lands on a platform and D3 is standing below it (battlefield for sure, smashville too?). D3 doesn't really have the speed to pressure a zoning TL, which makes it difficult to pressure him and allows TL to play rock/paper/scissors with zair landings and stuff. D3's waddle dees also don't really help in this matchup since TL's projectiles come from diagonally/directly above (above waddle dees), often leading to D3 throwing them unsafely and getting hit for it.

Olimar and marth are definitely strong against him though. Pikachu definitely debatable, need a pikachu player's input.

 

[Z'zgashi]

need a pikachu player's input.

Please, no.

 

[NH Cody]

no olimar is even and marth is even

 

[Slayerz_]

Where's Seagull? He's always singing Llod's praises, I would think he'd have some insight into Llod vs Chu results.

What about Falln vs SlayerZ? Has that ever happened?

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/469987546 4:55:37
Yes, we played at Smash Sundays 10/13.

 

[Espy Rose]

Can we just indefinitely ground Gheb and send him to his room then? Reading that little exchange on the last page made me ill.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Toon Link sucks hard.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

On D3 vs Toon Link it is funny because it was the Toon Links that argued for the+1 not the D3s they generally thought it was a 0. So don't blame the D3 players for that one.

 

[NH Cody]

who cares about who argued for which side...that's irrelevant

 

[infiniteV115]

everything. there are like 9 disadvantageous MUs on the chart. that's just wrong and unrealistic

tl loses to falco slightly, zss, snake, maybe wario, and mk...and LOL at samus going even with toon link u guys r funny 1s

TL:ZSS is already listed as -1

 

[NH Cody]

yes congrats to the matchup team. that's the only one they got right

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure the current DDD:TL was my fault.
Basically, TLs were way too stubborn about the -1, I wanted to argue the 0 because despite they *can* get CG'ed by DDD's gigantic Grab range and destroyed offstage, they always had the option to Zdrop and be safe pretty much the whole time.
The TLs completely ignored the argument, and I got tired of their stuff and agreed to the +1 because **** IT.
The other DDDs could've outvoted that, but they decided not to vote and my super early vote was the deciding factor lol
If I could change it right now, I would.

 

[NH Cody]

so you admit your matchup vote was a fraud!!

 

[WindMajor]

No, there were reasons.

Half of the TLs argued that it was -1 because they thought DDD's chaingrab was stronger than TL's camping game. At the time though, results were showing the opposite of that. PJ had just stomped 4God and KT had just snagged a win off of Vex in some tourney. Results were dictating that it was +1 TL and theory was dictating that it was -1 TL, so I personally argued for 0. And I have to clarify that because someone above me cited that the TLs were pushing for +1 DDD, but that's not true. TLs were split between 0 and -1, never +1. It ended up being -1, I can't remember how.

Marth is -1 because theoretically, TL was believed to be at a disadvantage, and results backed that up.
Olimar being -1 was unanimous. I can't recall anyone bringing him up.
Pika is -1 because ESAM said words.
Samus is 0 because of discussions in v2. I think it was +2 before, but Samus mains pushed for 0 mainly because of results. The change didn't happen in v2, but it was rediscussed in v3 and the majority won. I think only 1 TL contested the change.

I was the TL leader for all three revisions of the MU chart and I seeked all the opinions I could gather. I can't recall you taking the call, so I ask that you don't make a mockery of my efforts because at the very least, I tried.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Sorry Twink, I didn't mean you but the other TLs; iirc you were the only one back there on the 0 side, but didn't contribute much so in the end the most vocal idea won the debate (yay stubbornness!).

 

[Krynxe]

I think it's silly that these decision are based on a few random people who vote rather than thoughtful analysis by a large group of people.

 

[DeLux]

That's pretty insulting given the people aren't random.
On the contrary, the people in the panels were deliberately picked based on their various credentials.

 

[infiniteV115]

Furthermore, you make it sound as if there wasn't any analysis from the voters

 

[WindMajor]

On top of that, you're acting like voting is a bad thing. Match-up ratios can't be right or wrong, just agreed upon by a large group of people. That's exactly what voting measures.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Pika is -1 because ESAM said words.

I'm noticing a trend here...

 

[pidgezero_one]

had a dream last night that I went to apex and me and Delux were hanging out in a big long lineup for the bathroom

and then Tin Man walks into the room and I create a huge scene by running over to him and screaming my ass off and hugging him and then after I've fully embarrassed him I yell "OK NOW WHERES MR. R"

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

had a dream last night that I went to apex and me and Delux were hanging out in a big long lineup for the bathroom

and then Tin Man walks into the room and I create a huge scene by running over to him and screaming my *** off and hugging him and then after I've fully embarrassed him I yell "OK NOW WHERES MR. R"

Where I come from we call those "Premonitions" not dreams.

 

[NH Cody]

Dedede +1 for toon link??? lmao now that's something I've never heard before

I've been calling it an even mu since early 2011 and everyone laughed at me and said I was ridiculous for not believing it was -1. now it's not only even but in fact +1! lol

 

[Ghostbone]

I think it's silly that these decision are based on a few random people who vote rather than thoughtful analysis by a large group of people.

If it's any consolation, these random people don't actually affect any game mechanics, the matchup's the same no matter what conclusion they reach. (for example, Pikachu vs MK is MK's favour no matter what ESAM thinks)

 

[WindMajor]

It's not +1, stop calling it fact. Calling it +1 was a hypothetical stretch and should always be. Realistically, it's even at best, -1 at worst. Both ratios are valid in my opinion.

 

[| Big D |]

Maybe Dedede really does beat Toon Link.

What then?

 

[RaptorTEC]

Well what do you think it is?

 

[| Big D |]

In my head it plays out in Dedede's favour but I haven't played any good Toon Links.

Which is why I didn't vote when it came down to it.

 

[NH Cody]

It's not +1, stop calling it fact. Calling it +1 was a hypothetical stretch and should always be. Realistically, it's even at best, -1 at worst. Both ratios are valid in my opinion.

-1 for which character at worst?

 

[WindMajor]

Toon Link disadvantage.

 

[Krynxe]

DeLux: I didn't mean to say random as in "arbitrary", I meant it in the sense that the people are not consistent. The groups of people were, in my opinion, far too small. Opinions are driven harder than facts with such small groups, even if they're credible individuals.

v115: Sorry, I'm not trying to say that. It's just seems as though a lot of analysis was made in the corner instead of being open to interpretation from a variety of perspectives.

Dan: I'm not trying to say that, I'm simply suggesting that voting should by no means be the end-all be-all.

 

[Luco]

The silly thing about it all was IMO that people said they'd make the commitment and didn't.

I mean, I know people have real lives but a commitment... they could have at least tried, on some panels. :'(

Off-topic I know, it's just verbalizing an old thought of mine I had about the process.

 

[DeLux]

DeLux: I didn't mean to say random as in "arbitrary", I meant it in the sense that the people are not consistent. The groups of people were, in my opinion, far too small. Opinions are driven harder than facts with such small groups, even if they're credible individuals

So you're suggesting that rather than put together a small group of barely qualified people, you want a large group of clearly unqualified people?

Now THAT seems pretty random to me. That's without even going into the epistemology of "facts" in a video game and how it relates to the metaphysical/metagame.

 

[Fuujin]

FLOP chart.

I thought the chart was supposed to get better, not worse.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

FLOP chart.

I thought the chart was supposed to get better, not worse.

And I thought you and your useless posts would be gone forever, but here we are, toots.

 

[Fuujin]

And I thought you and your useless posts would be gone forever, but here we are, toots.

Reported for personal attack.

Mods you betta get ha.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@SFP

Why hate on Fuujin when you can just make fun of him? He'll even respond with nice .gifs :3

 

[Fuujin]

I'm not allowed to post gifs, or even images anymore.

Looks like I'm stuck with these weak ass smilies.

Actually that could be misconstrued as trolling or flamebait.




Disregard that.

This site is totally gr8 and I love you all.
The BBR is wonderful and did an amazing job on this chart.