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Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

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Grim Tuesday

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They can't both be -2 if one is doable and the other is ridic ****
Peach/Wario is arguably -1 tho, and D3/MK is arguably -3, so yeah

Anyway point I was making is that 60:40 doesn't mean you'll lose 60% of the time - it means that you'll lose near 100% of the time against a player of equal skill - BUT you'll be able to beat players who are worse than you.

70:30 is the same, you'll lose just as often (maybe a little more) assuming equal skill, and you might also lose to someone worse than you, but you'll beat peeps that are a lot worse than you.

And 100:0 would mean that you'll never win, no matter how bad your opponent is.
 

Ghostbone

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When was the last time someone won a -2 match-up in tournament against an opponent of equal skill who was playing the match-up correctly?
Winning an entire set is difficult because there's multiple games.
And characters with -2 matchups suck, so they're less likely to advance through tournaments

But it does happen, Warios beat Marths and Peaches beat Falcos and everyone beats Meta Knights.
 

DMG

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Peach v Wario is arguably a lot of damn things, god that MU is floated at like 3-4 different ratings lol

-2 though is the most bloated rating we have, and I know that it's kinda intended to be but like god. The system as a whole gives people the wrong impression that all of these +1's and +2's are equilavent with each other: statistically speaking it would be very unlikely for the actual difficulty to match these "catch all" ratings or labels we tried this time. If we're not going to add more ratings/labels, then maybe a gradient scale in each rating that shows which MU's are expected to be easier/harder in that rating.

Wario should not beat Marth and top level hasn't in awhile. Only thing I will add.
 

xDD-Master

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First things first: I agree with DMG.

I personally prefer the 10-point system, in which the ratios means: "Out of 10 Matches, who is likely to win how often" (Assuming top level of play)


My only "problem "with this system I have is the 9-1/10-0 debate. IMO DK vs DDD would be 10-0, even though DK can win in theory, he just wont win. (Infinite legal I'm talking about)
The Match-Up is -3 now, which says that its extremely hard, but not unwinnable in theory, because theoretically DK has options to avoid the grab, and maybe win the match-up. But we all know, in top level play, DK will never win against a good DDD though, with the Infinite allowed and a short classic stagelist (5-10 Stages)
We could argue for 9-1, but with the definition of "who is winning how often in 10 matches", it just feels wrong to put it 9-1, even though in theory DK always has a chance of winning (If he avoids every grad etc.)
It just won't happen, even when it's possible in theory, because we are humans and not robots.

As we are all human, the MU chart should be for human playing. Therefore 10-0 Match Ups are totally possible IMO. And I think its way easier to agree on that.

We have to ask if pikachu vs MK is 5-5, assuming that criteria for MU Ratio Creation? Is pikachu likely to win as much as the MK?


My biggest with the +1etc system, for example, if its +1, then why shouldnt you always win, if you are able to abuse the tactic/reasons that makes it +1 in the first place.

Thats why I think "out of 10 matches, at top level play, who is likely to win how often". It just makes everything much easier. You won't have that perfection problem, where you can argue that you should always win a +1 MU, as you have the advantage. Therefore it could be 10-0 in the 10-pt-system, as you should never lose an MU where you have the advantage, even if its just a slight one. The 10-pt-system just takes this flaw away, as I counts losing even though you are more likely to win, into account.

A falco should never lose against a ZSS, because overall, in that MU, falco is just better. But then again, ZSS can win, and will win, just not as much as Falco, as its a lot harder for her to win. Thats why it should be 7-3 for example. It's expected that the Falco will win 7 out of 10 matches in that Match-Up, but it doesnt say, that ZSS cant win at all.

Back to DK vs DDD, the 10-pt-system would indicate, that out of 10 matches, DK is expected to win 0 matches. It doesnt tell you though, that you cant win it (Even though it will never happen anyway). It just says what is does, DK is expected to win 0 matches out of 10. It's just that Easy and clear!


Ofc the easiest would be, to just use 3 labels: Winnable (Even - slight adv., every match-up where both characters can win), easy win (When you will never lose a MU, if you are good enough, no matter how good your oppenent is, DK vs DDD for example), and "better switch character" (The oppesite of easy win, you just won't win this MU, no matter how hard you try). But that method would leave out a lot of information, because over 50% would probably be in the first category.


I think people could much easier agree ratios for the out-of-10-matches-system.


Sry for the WoT, I just felt like sharing my opinion on this.
 

Ghostbone

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+1 means you have an advantage
Your opponent can still work around that/outplay you in any given game, so they will still win, just not as often.

I don't see what's wrong with that system >.>
 

xDD-Master

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+1 means you have an advantage
Your opponent can still work around that/outplay you in any given game, so they will still win, just not as often.
You can always outplay/outsmart your oppenent, IN EVERY MATCH UP.

Assuming two top level players at the same level, outplaying shouldnt really happen anyway.

Because with ouplaying DK can also win vs. DDD.
Outplaying should never be part of MU discussions, as outplaying isnt something that can be done all the time.
With outplaying every MU is winnable.

Outplaying is a player vs player thing, not a character vs character one.

You can only outplay your oppenant via mindgames/prediction or by being just better than him in terms of spacing/zoning and/or other skills. Assuming our criteria of top level play and equally skilled players, we can asume that none of them are doable always.
Mindgames won't work all the time, just like you won't predict correctly all the time. And top level players are supposed to have correct spacing/zoning etc.

On the other hand: DDDs infinite is always guaranteed. Thats not a player vs player thing. Stuff like that is deciding MUs Ratios.
 

Rizen

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I think we're looking for a diamond in a lump of coal, so to speak, with the MU numbers and meanings. It's simply an imperfect system. Like communism and capitalism.
 

FredFuchs

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i was never clear about the legality of ddd's short step cg/ infinite cg. in general, what is the status of that?

EDIT: I think the t.o. here in hawaii legalizes all infinits, but as mentioned in other threads by me, my region isn't exactly considered good with the exception of asa, but he left a long time ago. I'm more concerned with the more high profile regions/tournaments like NY/NJ, SoCal, Florida, etc. If you want my opinion, both should be legal but I don't even main ddd anymore, so why should I care you may ask. I just do.
 

-LzR-

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None of that **** is banned in Finland. It depends on the country. I consider banning any sort of standing infinite or whatever extremely scrubby and an unnecessary nerf/buff for certain characters for no reason. Yet these very same people are laughing at people who want MK banned.
 

Rizen

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We're talking about imperfect humans not robots. Even at the highest levels of play there's chance, mistakes and inconsistency. Otherwise tournaments would be nothing but MK dittos. ...more so.
 

FourStar

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ok so i was kinda wondering how is peach getting even matchups with higher tiers? like wtf? even with Olimar? Pikachu? Diddy kong? ZSS? someone explain how these MUs are even......
 

Rizen

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ok so i was kinda wondering how is peach getting even matchups with higher tiers? like wtf? even with Olimar? Pikachu? Diddy kong? ZSS? someone explain how these MUs are even......
Some characters have strangely good MUs; that's why it's important to know MUs and not dismiss a character as bad because their ranking. Peach floats and has good options like Dair vs opponents like Oli who rely on grabs and throwing projectile with hurtboxes (Pikmin). She can get around a lot of tactics that hurt other characters.

A Peach player can explain better lol.
 

FourStar

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Some characters have strangely good MUs; that's why it's important to know MUs and not dismiss a character as bad because their ranking. Peach floats and has good options like Dair vs opponents like Oli who rely on grabs and throwing projectile with hurtboxes (Pikmin). She can get around a lot of tactics that hurt other characters.

A Peach player can explain better lol.
ok so i sort of understand peach being good against like ZSS but im pretty sure pika is too fast for peach and deals with floaties pretty well and Olimar and Diddy just have a way better projectile game to allow peach to get in. idk that's just what i've seen.
 

DMG

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Olimar projectile game is kind of garbage. Shielding stops Pikmin from latching, and someone like Peach of all characters has the hitbox walls to deal with them.
 

DMG

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That's the exception to the rule, he has a solid record vs Marth but I don't find it representative of the MU. European Marth players try to have fun and do cool things. Sitting there with a boring stare is much more effective.
 

philbobjoe

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ok so i sort of understand peach being good against like ZSS but im pretty sure pika is too fast for peach and deals with floaties pretty well and Olimar and Diddy just have a way better projectile game to allow peach to get in. idk that's just what i've seen.
Weeeeell, Peach has a pretty amazing win-rate against pikachu in tournament, so there's definitely something to it.
 

Kewkky

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Peach isn't good against ZSS. They're even at best, for both characters.
 

FredFuchs

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ok so i was kinda wondering how is peach getting even matchups with higher tiers? like wtf? even with Olimar? Pikachu? Diddy kong? ZSS? someone explain how these MUs are even......
for peach vs olimar, it's because peach can efficiently and relatively safely approach, and we all know how much olimar hates cqb.
 

FourStar

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ok but what about diddy and pikachu guys? i'm getting the overall feeling that olimar is not that good against peach making it pretty even. but diddy and pika? are they really even with peach? i sure as hell don't think so.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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ok but what about diddy and pikachu guys? i'm getting the overall feeling that olimar is not that good against peach making it pretty even. but diddy and pika? are they really even with peach? i sure as hell don't think so.
Diddy and Pikachu both excel when their opponent is on the ground. Diddy because of Bananas and Pikachu because of his excellent grab game. Peach, due to her floating ability, is able to avoid those key points of the opponents game, forcing them to use a less efficient playstyle.
 

FourStar

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Diddy and Pikachu both excel when their opponent is on the ground. Diddy because of Bananas and Pikachu because of his excellent grab game. Peach, due to her floating ability, is able to avoid those key points of the opponents game, forcing them to use a less efficient playstyle.
i know that but i haven't seen it put in a real life example. like olimar now that i've been researching has done pretty bad in tournament. but pika and diddy..... no. in fact neither does ZSS. idk maybe those players are just too good :p
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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i know that but i haven't seen it put in a real life example. like olimar now that i've been researching has done pretty bad in tournament. but pika and diddy..... no. in fact neither does ZSS. idk maybe those players are just too good :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIeDkzaYEr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-PinOQhJZc

also afaik Esam has lost to Illmatic multiple times

for Diddy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnrafhLiInI

That was the only thing I found that wasn't super old, online, or friendlies
 

Xyro77

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Pretty sure ganon=gannon=ganondorfy=gannondorfy.

And pretty sure the green lesbian beats him.
 

FourStar

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIeDkzaYEr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-PinOQhJZc

also afaik Esam has lost to Illmatic multiple times

for Diddy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnrafhLiInI

That was the only thing I found that wasn't super old, online, or friendlies
ok that's not fair. it's mainly illmatic LOL. and he's pretty damn good Peach. other than that idk any other peaches that dominate diddy and pika. and i'm pretty sure ZSS has the advantage against peach
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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ok that's not fair. it's mainly illmatic LOL. and he's pretty damn good Peach. other than that idk any other peaches that dominate diddy and pika. and i'm pretty sure ZSS has the advantage against peach
"Illmatic doesn't count because he's too good"

So we shouldn't take the highest level of play into account when deciding matchups?

I'm done with you.
 

FourStar

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"Illmatic doesn't count because he's too good"

So we shouldn't take the highest level of play into account when deciding matchups?

I'm done with you.
i never said anything about him not counting....... **** dude i just said he doesn't count as a joke. overall i don't think peach has the advantage on pika and diddy. its like how Salem can tear through quite a few high level MK's but that doesn't make the ZSS and MK MU in ZSS favor.
 

Master Raven

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Experience is what ultimately matters. Also remember that play styles vary. Just because I can beat Player A doesn't necessarily mean I can beat Player B using the same tactics. ALSO some players may just have a mental block on certain characters. I know ESAM had one with Peach for a while. There are so many subtle factors that influence the outcome of a set, which is why I don't like to judge off of only a handful sets.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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i never said anything about him not counting....... **** dude i just said he doesn't count as a joke. overall i don't think peach has the advantage on pika and diddy. its like how Salem can tear through quite a few high level MK's but that doesn't make the ZSS and MK MU in ZSS favor.
I know I said I was done with you but this was too *facepalm* for me to ignore.


This isn't really the same as Salem's ZSS, because multiple Peaches are beating Pikachus. SlayerZ and Silly Kyle have both beaten Z, and Illmatic is beating Kprime and Esam. That's 4 different player matchups (SlayerZ vs Z, Silly Kyle vs Z, Illmatic vs Esam, Illmatic vs Kprime) and in each one the Peach player is winning.

Anyway, this time I'm definitely done with this topic. I'm going to let people who actually play these characters pick up the debate.
 

Kewkky

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I'd like to see more discussions on MUs and stuff. As the OP says, there probably won't be anymore MU chart releases, and instead we'll just update it accordingly as time goes by.
 
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