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Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

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xDD-Master

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When you play vs. Glutonny it isnt just the regular wario Match-Up you are playing.
Glutonny is like a personal weakness of Leon. He also lost to Glutonnys Falco in the past.

Leon might **** other Warios. (Even though I had the feeling, when playing him in teams, that I could do pretty good vs him with Wario, might just be teams though)
 

Shaya

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Representing match ups by how often X player wins or loses to Y player screamssssssssssssssssssssss something.

Screams it.

Screams Olimar beating MK and Ice Climbers because Denti beats every worthwhile MK and Ice Climbers.
Screams zero suit samus losing to every character in the cast because Salem loses to every character main in the cast.

Screams Marth losing to everyone because I guess marth loses to everyone
 

Dekillsage

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There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
Leon is one of the best Marths out there, when he's getting consistently beaten, I don't see how you can arrive at the conclusion that Marth significantly beats Wario.

Being one of the best with a character, or even the best, doesn't mean you know a match up or are in the same skill level as your opponent.
I hate to use myself as an example, but lets look as snake vs dk. At a local tourney ally came over and had to play will, where he won game 1 in a nail biter and lost game 2 in a 2 stock. He went Mk game 3, and ended up winning the set. Now we all know ally is the best snake in the world overall, but just by watching him play I knew he didn't know the match up, or his style wasn't fit to fight the character. I proceeded to beating will that tournament, 2-0 in close matches. Things like this happen all the time, (razer vs olimar, ally vs mk)

They're good at things, and are the best with their characters, but that doesn't mean they're the best at everything. So its really hard to know what a match up actually is by just watching 2 people play, or by watching 1 person compete against multiple people. You never know if someone is playing poorly, is outclassed, doesn't have proper experience, or if the MU is actually better than people think.

With that being said I don't think Wario vs Marth is -2. But if I didn't think this, it wouldn't take only leon vs gluttony to change my mind.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Leon is really damn good against Wario though imo. It's just that Glutonny's uairs are so godlike that most people don't even know what it does to Marth.

:059:
 

ぱみゅ

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I'm pretty sure most Warios try to outpoke every character in the game and as it doesn't work on Marth, they think he shuts them down hard.
Maybe
 

infiniteV115

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Leon is really damn good against Wario though imo. It's just that Glutonny's uairs are so godlike that most people don't even know what it does to Marth.

:059:
Not to mention his ability to read the opponent's movement is ridiculous, which is what allows him to get so many good uairs
 

Ghostbone

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Screams Marth losing to everyone because I guess marth loses to everyone
Marth does lose to everyone. ;)

And anyway Shaya, I'm not saying Wario beats Marth, I'm saying it's not as heavily in Marth's favour as people think.
Denti beating MK and Ice Climbers shows they're both winnable matchups (-1 probably, though Ice Climbers is somewhat luck dependent with Purples)
 

Marc

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Nope. I want to arrange something, we really need an european tournament with all the top players from Europe again. Gonna try my best to make it possible.

Have Glutonny and Quik get their asses to Avalon, we already have Ramin and Leon. :p Seriously though, Gluto never travels so it's like whatever at this point. Not up to Ramin to prove anything at the moment.
 

xDD-Master

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Have Glutonny and Quik get their ***** to Avalon, we already have Ramin and Leon. :p Seriously though, Gluto never travels so it's like whatever at this point. Not up to Ramin to prove anything at the moment.
Avalon only 1 day though. At least for ME it's just to expensive for an 1 day only event and I am sure I'm not the only one for whom this is the case :/
Would love to go otherwise. Good luck with the tournament nevertheless ;)

Leon also plans to do LSC2 in december though, I just asked ramin if he plans to go to that. Waiting for an answer. Really need Glutonny vs Ramin Rematch 2013! Because Gluto will be there for sure!

Gluto sadly never travels OoC except this one time for SKTAR2 -_-"
 

~ Gheb ~

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And anyway Shaya, I'm not saying Wario beats Marth, I'm saying it's not as heavily in Marth's favour as people think.
To be fair though, none of the Marth players actually think it's +2. It were mainly the Wario players who pushed for that number. So for once, it's not the Marth players hyperboling a matchup number :denzel:


Gluto never travels so it's like whatever at this point. Not up to Ramin to prove anything at the moment.

True but at the same time I wonder if Glut feels like he has to prove himself either. Ramin's definitely the best though. Glut still occasionally drops set to worse players - he just got 4th last weekend at a tournament - whereas Ramin beats literally everybody except Leon and quiK. The only other people I could imagine taking sets off him are Heru and un-rusty Lp but neither is very likely to happen anymore so whenever Ramin enters a EU tourney it's up to these two players to stop him and more often than not he wins anyway.

:059:
 

xDD-Master

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Unlikely to beat him, and I don't see cyve having a chance against Ramin at all.

:059:
Oh, then I misread your post. cyve can definitely beat Ramin. I think they went 3-2 or 3-1 the one time they played, at BiN, not sure if they had to face each other another time. And cyve only got SO MUCH better since then. But whatever, wrong thread, and we won't know it anyway, until the next time they play :)
 

False

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Ganon is a large character and his legs are disjointed during Uair; it's like Falcon's but bigger and stronger. In that it is bigger than ZSS' Uair.

I should clarify that Ganon has no extra jumps and terrible mobility. I'm only talking about Uair. MK has many jumps and ZSS is very agile. If they kept these good stats and got Ganon's Uair with them IMO they would be even better. Imagine MK with his recovery and jumps walling someone off with a Uair that has the range and power of Ganon's :eek:

But can MK's Uair do this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_heHxPRc0&feature=player_detailpage&t=144 tell me MK wouldn't be better with that Uair. :smirk:

1. I don't necessarily agree with this because then I'm not so sure how MK would plank. Would that work? @_@

2. Regardless, if MK had ganon's uair it would most definitely destroy his low percentage strings and in later percents his set up to shuttle loop.
Ganon's Uair individually is a well built move, but it would not combine well with MK's.

3. The main reason the other uairs listed are so good is because if the person ADs through them the cooldown from their uair is fast enough so
that they can punish. A frame trap, if you will. Even though Ganon may have superior range/knockback/power you're failing to see that his Uair
isn't mobile enough to fit a heavy punish game for air dodges.

4. I will give his Uair credit though, it is a fantastic tool for zoning and gimping.

Wario vs Marth is even. :secretkpop:

I hope this isn't a troll. I honestly don't think it's in Marth's favor that much.

I believe lots of Warios try to zone Marths out like they do in other match ups when the matter of fact is that you're supposed to zone yourself inside and **** him up the best you can while you're in.
Because Wario heavily outclasses Marth in weight, he can easily afford to trade which doesn't make the MU as bad as many people make it out to be. I only think Wario loses slightly -1 if it's not even at all because

A. Marth heavily outranges Wario in nearly every aspect so getting in is fairly difficult.

B. Grab release

However, Wario HAS the tools to get in on Marth; his mobility makes his approach options varied. Marth can't swing his sword for free against Wario, where as Wario can switch up between vertical/horizontal approaches while throwing in air dodge mix ups.

I also think all the Marths should take the time to learn GR to reverse tipper, because I've only seen Leon do it consistently in tournament so far lolol. It kills stocks in nearly half the time it usually takes.
 

Nemy

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I hope this isn't a troll. I honestly don't think it's in Marth's favor that much
I believe lots of Warios try to zone Marths out like they do in other match ups when the matter of fact is that you're supposed to zone yourself inside and **** him up the best you can while you're in.
Because Wario heavily outclasses Marth in weight, he can easily afford to trade which doesn't make the MU as bad as many people make it out to be. I only think Wario loses slightly -1 if it's not even at all because

A. Marth heavily outranges Wario in nearly every aspect so getting in is fairly difficult.

B. Grab release

However, Wario HAS the tools to get in on Marth; his mobility makes his approach options varied. Marth can't swing his sword for free against Wario, where as Wario can switch up between vertical/horizontal approaches while throwing in air dodge mix ups.

I also think all the Marths should take the time to learn GR to reverse tipper, because I've only seen Leon do it consistently in tournament so far lolol. It kills stocks in nearly half the time it usually takes.
Squinted so hard to read this that my eyes cramped.
Yeah, my eyes f*****g cramped. Who knew that could happen?

Then when I quote it, it shows up in nice white font. -____-

I pretty much agree with you though. I feel like the MU is even and if not, only-1.
Wario and marth can both make their movements look inconsistent, for mixups but I feel like by now everyone knows what a marth is trying to throw out/bait, but they still take the hit/trade. Wario has safer trade, and when he gets underneath marth its a slight problem.
 

Luigi player

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I hope this isn't a troll. I honestly don't think it's in Marth's favor that much.

I believe lots of Warios try to zone Marths out like they do in other match ups when the matter of fact is that you're supposed to zone yourself inside and **** him up the best you can while you're in.
Because Wario heavily outclasses Marth in weight, he can easily afford to trade which doesn't make the MU as bad as many people make it out to be. I only think Wario loses slightly -1 if it's not even at all because

A. Marth heavily outranges Wario in nearly every aspect so getting in is fairly difficult.

B. Grab release

However, Wario HAS the tools to get in on Marth; his mobility makes his approach options varied. Marth can't swing his sword for free against Wario, where as Wario can switch up between vertical/horizontal approaches while throwing in air dodge mix ups.

I also think all the Marths should take the time to learn GR to reverse tipper, because I've only seen Leon do it consistently in tournament so far lolol. It kills stocks in nearly half the time it usually takes.
It isn't a troll, but people will most likely feel like I'm trolling because most can't see the truth!
 

Djent

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Since we're on Wario, how do you guys feel he does in his other A-tier matchups? Most of them are listed as even (Snake, Diddy, Oli, Falco, Pika). I'm inclined to agree with Pika, and maybe Snake/Falco (at least based on results). I have NO idea what Oli/Diddy have really been played substantially. In any case, is he over- or underrated in any of these? Because a mostly-even spread against the A-tiers could move him above ZSS in overall usefulness (who in that case would only really do better vs. MK).
 

Z'zgashi

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I feel like Wario is placed well, but I think people underrate him a lot.
 

Luigi player

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Since we're on Wario, how do you guys feel he does in his other A-tier matchups? Most of them are listed as even (Snake, Diddy, Oli, Falco, Pika). I'm inclined to agree with Pika, and maybe Snake/Falco (at least based on results). I have NO idea what Oli/Diddy have really been played substantially. In any case, is he over- or underrated in any of these? Because a mostly-even spread against the A-tiers could move him above ZSS in overall usefulness (who in that case would only really do better vs. MK).
It kinda seems that Snake is just very little advantageous against Wario, but he can definitely hold his on and on a chart with only +1 to +4 it's probably best to label it as even. (otherwise I'd say 50-50 or 55-45 for Snake)

Vs Diddy it's imo either even or 55-45 for Diddy (in the chart it should probably be even).

I can't see Wario do that great vs Olimar tbh, but results seem that he is pretty decent and can win. I'd think +1 for Olimar but I don't really know for sure.

Vs Falco it should be even, maybe 55-45 for Falco but as with the others it should be even with the +1 to +4 system.

And didn't Wario have an advantage against Pika before? I don't know what changed (except ESAM probably pulling through with his opinions), but whatever. I don't know the MU so I can't say anything about it. Maybe even is correct, maybe it could be +1 for Wario, who knows. It's not like the MU is happening too often.

There aren't many good Warios or Pikas to begin with lol.
 

Shaya

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Wario who can chain grab against Falco is a stupendously dumb hard match up for Falco.

Like seriously.

50 to like 140%. And Wario can just wait for it. Forever.
He gives
no
****ing ****s.
 

Ghostbone

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Wario's chain-grab lasts ages but has a limited window of when it can actually be started.

I don't know the specifics, but Wario finds it hard to actually grab Falco in the first place.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Falco is still extremely hard for Wario to approach. It's still at best an even matchup for Wario.

:059:
 

Luigi player

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Wario who can chain grab against Falco is a stupendously dumb hard match up for Falco.

Like seriously.

50 to like 140%. And Wario can just wait for it. Forever.
He gives
no
****ing ****s.
52 to about 120. It's great and definitely helps evening out the chaingrab that Falco has at first. And even if Wario doesn't get grabbed it's difficult to do some chip damage every time without getting hit by Falcos enormous priority attacks.

And like it was said Wario doesn't have that much room for the chaingrab to start. If Falcos % get's too high it won't work. So it's easy to predict for Falco when Wario wants to grab and can just play really grabsave. Wario can still get the grab, but Falcos boxing game is just so good.
 

infiniteV115

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Sky beat Larry, therefore winning MU for Wario
Snake wins against Wario
Diddy loses to Wario
Wario's probably like 45:55 against Oli
Even against Pikachu

/wordofgod
 

Ghostbone

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Wario goes even with like every single character in the game.
/at least he doesn't lose to them all like Marth.
 

Thor

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If you kill him I'll have to send you to the punitentiary.

Random note from a bad Pikachu main looking to improve: Shoutouts to Esam for refusing to let Pika/MK be -1 (and I guess to Anther for some of those random videos of him beating M2K that are probably sort of old). Because I like thinking my character is even against MK (most warrantless reason for supporting a matchup as represented on the chart ever).
 
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