Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Gardex]

Yeah, let's be real here...

Pika clearly beats MK

 

[AtneyB]

+2 Pika imo

 

[Thor]

Warning: Long post... You've been warned...

Hm... I'm stupid... really?
You (Grim Tuesday) said:

He isn't even with MK.
Anyone who thinks he is is stupid. (someone enlighten me on how to actually quote

(someone enlighten me on how to attribute quotes to a user)

I'm in debate - 4th year - you'll be punished for missteps in verbage. Might also explain why I'm not very good at counting (or rather, "counting.") So here's the punchline...

Or I'm not stupid, just less well versed in Smash (and you didn't even provide reasons why that's true and the discussion about it don't seem that deep), which means you deserve the following thing I found on a website for your baseless assault on my intelligence:

Step into the world of logic GT. Warrants first, claim second. Otherwise you're begging the question, or have no more correctness than I do (and therefore you, not I, am stupid, for not realizing this prior to posting). Alternatively, you could propose a system not based on logic, but I sense you'll struggle to reason why that's a good thing.

Justifies the following counter-assertion: Pikachu is even with MK. Anyone who doesn't think that is stupid.

(Interestingly enough, I'm using pseudo-fallacious logic here, but if you can't point it out it doesn't matter, and I'd still argue it's relevant based on how I took your comment).

Also, Esam and AtneyB are bosses. Just sayin'.

(If you hadn't noticed I'm easily offended by people who insult me without actually knowing me. Chalk it up to an inferiority complex?)

 

[Z'zgashi]

ESAM has a negative record against the vast majority of top MKs. Need I say more?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When I start a discussion with ad hominem, you can probably assume that I'm not interested in an actual debate.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

When I start a discussion with ad hominem, you can probably assume that I'm not interested in an actual debate.

OH NO GRIM TUESDAY! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE??!???!?!??!

Now he's going to accuse you of being "scared" to argue and that you "aren't smart enough" to debate with him on an "intellectual level" on a ****ing video game message board and he'll make another ****ing long ass post with pictures and COLOURED FONT and **** like that. And he's probably going to completely ignore the actual context of your post, just so he can prove how "smart" he is.

 

[Delta-cod]

I thought it was gonna be Navy Seal copy pasta at first. 4/10 for the surprise factor.

 

[Osennecho]

His post contradicted himself and portrayed a superiority complex. Regardless it doesn't belong here. But F that. Moving on. SM2 can you remind me how many S's Puffs tier is again?

 

[1PokeMastr]

Big amount of butthurtness

You're stupid in the fact you're getting butthurt over what Grim said, it wasn't even directed at you specifically.

There's no reason to get so hurt over it, let alone pull a Dark Peach on us.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

His post contradicted himself and portrayed a superiority complex. Regardless it doesn't belong here. But F that. Moving on. SM2 can you remind me how many S's Puffs tier is again?

Superiority complex is just a subset of an inferiority complex, mind you.

No hard feelings to Thor, he needs to feel his way around the boards a bit more I guess. I 100% stand by what I said though, not thinking that Meta Knight beats Pikachu is a sign of stupidity, not gonna beat around that bush.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

His post contradicted himself and portrayed a superiority complex. Regardless it doesn't belong here. But F that. Moving on. SM2 can you remind me how many S's Puffs tier is again?

However many S's you feel like holding the S key down for

Puff 4 SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier

 

[1PokeMastr]

Dk beats Metaknight because Dk never dies and can kill Mk with errythang.

+3 Dk.

 

[Espy Rose]

I just saw a guy get dunked by Grim.
I feel like I should never come back here. Nothing will be as hilarious as this.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Dk beats Metaknight because Dk never dies and can kill Mk with errythang.

+3 Dk.

I just want to say that this was Stroumbert's actual reasoning for using DK instead of Falco against Doom at IMPULSE 2

 

[Thor]

You'll have to explain to me what getting Dark Peach'd is.

FYI It's maybe superiority but it's more like people beat me down everywhere so I try to overproject something else (gotta be right or I'm a loser to all). Should've checked it at the door before getting an account here.

My failure to do so is this (which you all have rightfully directed at me):

with colored font!

That said, seeing as this is the "Official SWF Matchup" ... whatever I'd appreciate someone redirecting me somewhere where an intelligent discussion about the Pika/MK matchup is so I can stop bothering y'all and your lovely discussion about ... other stuff. Cuz I am interested in actual debate (that would be the first red font in my previous post) and want to suck less at Smash (and correct misunderstandings wherever they lie). Most of you can probably stop reading here.

My apologies for wasting your time.

Also please don't kill other people on Smashboards Shiny Mewtwo aka JigglySir. Something tells me that punitentiary still has a cell open for murders.

Also, apologies for saying taking comfort in a chart (MU even) means I actually believe the chart (similarly, apologies for lying to myself about not sucking at Smash in the hopes I can eventually actually not suck).

Have a nice day.

FYI: The only real flaw in the that MK/DK logic is the fact that... well... how do you hit MK (multiple times) in the first place? Sure you need double the percent to die, but when you take 3X as much, that's gonna end badly... unless someone wants to explain even more logical holes in this thanks to my n00bness at Smash.

 

[Alphicans]

You can't beg the question when it's a brute fact.

lol sorry

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yo dude here's your intelligent discussion

The ONLY reason Pikachu is currently even with MK is because everyone inflates their MU vs. MK because
1. It's the most important MU
2. It's the one that everyone knows the best

So they usually feel like it is better than it actually is

The fact of the matter is that while Pikachu has strong tools in the MU; the chain-grab, pretty decent KO options, good general spacing and movement tools, whatever

THEY ARE NOT AS GOOD AS META KNIGHT'S TOOLS
And that is why I say people who think Pika/MK is even are idiots; they can, in the same breath, claim that MK has incredible options almost all the time but then somehow suggest that Pika's are comparable, or that a 0-50%~ CG somehow makes up for the difference.

Might I remind you, Thor, that Meta Knight's combination of ftilt, dtilt, GSL, forward roll and ground-to-air-transition beat Pikachu's grounded spacing options flat-out. There is no question.
Meta Knight has a better recovery. No question. He has better tools for stringing and controlling momentum after landing a hit or controlling space; Pikachu's combos are far more gimmicky and rely on reads and jank DI - that cannot compete with MK's uair > anything-he-wants combo.

Keep in mind, Pikachu definitely has options, and he does out-class MK in some situations (usually thanks to his projectile, and how fast he can travel vertically) - which is why it's only a -1 and not a bad match-up. But it is not

IT IS NOT

IT IS NOT
An even match-up. Thankyou.

 

[Aidebit]

You'll have to explain to me what getting Dark Peach'd is.

Getting Dark Peach'd (pronunciation)
1. It is to have walls of text get completely dumpstered, trashed, destroyed, etc. by various members of Smashboards.
Ex. "Did you hear that guy? Hey just got Dark Peach'd by Dark Peach!"
2. It is to have Dark Peach literally thrown at you as a projectile. +4 MU Dark Peach
Ex. "Once this character approaches, he is very susceptible to getting Dark Peach'd."

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The second definition is mostly hypothetical, as Dark Peach isn't technically consistent enough to actually harm anybody decent.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Guys stop talking about Dark Peach.

He's like Beetlejuice, say his name too many times and he appears.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

At least he isn't like Candlejack, that'd be a r

 

[Kewkky]

MK vs Pikachu isn't 0 in my opinion either. MK has the advantage. An easy way to take a look at this is to compare matches between people of the same skill level against one another, Pika mains vs MK mains. I'm pretty sure the track record is still in MK's favor when it comes to tournament matches. Theory is nice and all, but reality is more important.

Also Thor, understand that when discussing in a website about Smash, in a thread about Brawl matchups, when someone calls another person an idiot, it's usually referred at their ignorance of Brawl, not their math or debate skills. Just saying.

If you want a place with more intelligent discussion, I invite you to become a better Smashboards member and contribute in a positive manner to the boards, then join a Smash Backroom. It's literally the same as here, but with almost nonexistent trolling (and no discussion in dead topics either, we don't beat dead horses with sticks).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Official SWF Matchup Chart Thread - Fun = Smash Backroom
gotcha

 

[Kewkky]

Official SWF Matchup Chart Thread - Fun = Smash Backroom
gotcha

Oh, trust me, there's fun. Just not as many hate- or rage-inducing people like you, who take out one's interest of ever posting in SWF.




In other words, very few trolls.

 

[infiniteV115]

Based off of my experience (ie literally none) in the Smash Backroom, I have to agree with Grim that it isn't fun at all.

 

[Kewkky]

That's why you both aren't in there, because our view on what's fun isn't the same. :\

 

[Delta-cod]

Damn, we hatin' on people with different views now.

DOWN WITH THE SMASH BACKROOMS. We cannot support this bigotry.

 

[NickRiddle]

The BBR isn't fun.
Dead things aren't fun.

 

[infiniteV115]

So admission to the backroom depends on what we view as fun. Gotcha.

 

[NickRiddle]

So admission to the backroom depends on what we view as fun. Gotcha.

No.
Admission to the BackRoom depends on if you think Pikachu:MK is 0.
If you can concede that it might be, you get in. If you think Pikachu wins, you get IP banned from SWF. If you think MK wins, your username becomes GrimTuesday.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

No.
Admission to the BackRoom depends on if you think Pikachu:MK is 0.
If you can concede that it might be, you get in. If you think Pikachu wins, you get IP banned from SWF. If you think MK wins, your username becomes GrimTuesday.

I always assumed that it had something to do with how long someone's username was and that's why I'm not in.

 

[NickRiddle]

I always assumed that it had something to do with how long someone's username was and that's why I'm not in.

Well now you know.

 

[Ghostbone]

Pretty sure getting into the BBR is just a popularity contest with the randoms that are already in there.

 

[NickRiddle]

Game skill, debate skill, game knowledge.

Be very good at one of these things and it helps your chances. Realistically you should have at least 2 of these down pat in order to get in.
No idea how I got in, I suck, can't argue, and don't know anything.

 

[Thor]

It's nice to see some people don't resort to "brute facts" and dogmatic assertions to try to make an argument. Or else we can use them the way the Fuhrer did in the 1940s (paraphrased) [I DO NOT BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING QUOTE FOR THOSE WHO WOULD STOP READING AFTER THIS LINE!!!];
"Jews are stupid filthy creatures who deserve to be executed en masse, as they harm Germany. It's just a brute truth, and evident to anyone who isn't stupid." (once again, Hitler's thesis) And according to him, claiming otherwise is just denying the brute fact - it can't be begging the question to try to say Jews are evil, etc.

Yeah, that's just wrong - I can list counterexamples (I know very many nice smart well-kept (complimentary adjective) Jewish people) but that's moot as most of you probably dogmatically reject this statement anyway. Keep in mind though, that 70 years ago most (white) people dogmatically rejected the idea that black people should in the US should use the same schools as white people... (I can link people to Arendt for further explanation of dogmatism and why this belief is logically legitimate accepting assertions in previous posts about total truth) [The purpose of this is to explain why I display so much derision for claims of complete/undeniable truth].

It's nice to know some people DO use their brains or I might have to delete my account (my dad says I'm wasting my time with morons - I beg to differ but some of you make it really hard to do so...). If some of y'all want to chase this fairly new Smasher off, be my guest, but just remember to wake up in the morning and smile at yourself in the mirror because you attacked a kid who wanted to play video games better. If you want me gone, take pride in your accomplishments afterward and celebrate your ability to attack people because they know less than you. (This paragraph does not apply to most of you - mainly to those who still think after this post (and the previous one) that I deserve insults for whatever reason).

Thanks to Kewkky for pointing out something I couldn't phrase at the time (and didn't): Conflation of stupidity (refusal to see facts) with ignorance (lacking possession of facts). You also pointed out the fallacy (that my intelligence elsewhere has any relation to intelligence in Smash). Also I'm trying to contribute positively (shows up more elsewhere), so hopefully I can eventually find those intelligent discussions and form more intelligence-backed opinions, whatever they are (maybe even Pika/MK is -1, and then I can look back and laugh. Or Pika/MK is zero, whatever) (probably gonna get insulted again... chase me off why don'tcha).

I'm not sure I fully agree with the full assessment GT provided (presentations by a side favoring something are usually not comprehensive) but I'll just drop it (it's sufficient for what I wanted to know now and I can ask more once I'm better at this stuff). We should steer it back to Wario vs Marth or whatever substantive debate was going on before I made the comment that I like the idea of Pikachu being even with MK, regardless of truth (which is also dogmatic, so I need to stop that too).

I still think theory is relevant in as much as true equality of skill is nigh-impossible, but I will examine theory more closely (and videos) to see how things shake down more, keeping GT's (essentialist) summary in mind.

Lastly, thanks to Aldebit for explaining what Dark Peach'd is, although I have to ask if Dark Peach was a former member of Smashboards or something else.

EDIT: Mr. Riddle, you're polite and don't attack n00bs. You are a very skilled Zero Suit Samus. You also at least try to assess things logically instead of making up your own opinion and enforcing it (which is a debate skill in it of itself - that's what judges do). And you're humble. Seems like enough to me (although I'm sure someone will say, yeah but you know nothing and think Pika/MK isn't MK favored blah blah blah). So yeah, I think you're qualified. For what it's worth.

 

[NickRiddle]

Thor, I'm actually a jerk to new players if they make assertions. I call people on the boards stupid on a regular basis, and shove people's "facts" that are incorrect down their throats.
I just don't make random sweeping generalizations about people being dumb before they prove it.

 

[Thor]

Well if people make assertions and don't back them up it should be shoved back down throats. I actually have sought to be informed and GT has done an adequate job (for now). The fact that I had to be flamed (and flame people in turn) to actually get the facts is ridiculous (or you can call me on that - maybe flame wars are the way to go). Your ability to acknowledge this demonstrates logic (debate skill). And you don't attack n00bs for being n00bs you attack n00bs for thinking they're all that. Which I think is fine (and it's also why I've metioned before, I suck, so please give me info to suck less).

What I'm trying to say is, you aren't a jerk to people who are willing to learn but want the facts on why something is true.

And if you had flamed me for my original post, well, I would've deserved that, in as much as I hadn't been trying to have productive discourse about the issue at hand.

 

[infiniteV115]

stfu thor ur rong

 

[Thor]

About what?

Jews?

If so, you forgot your gif of "HEIL HITLER!"

 

[Alphicans]

Well for something to be a brute fact is for something to be true in virtue of how the universe is. I am not trying to argue with you btw, I was trolling, but I felt bad about it so that's why I said sorry.

Also as a side note, you shouldn't disagree with brute facts in virtue of them being brute facts. That's quite illogical actually.