Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Thanks for the pretty colors :3 Much easier to see the pluses and minuses now.

 

[Ishiey]

Marc, the chart is a bit off... the top and side don't list Peach/Pit/Wolf/Kirby in the same order >__>

My feelings on Ike's MUs:

I feel that these -1s are 0:



This just feels even overall. Unlike other Ike MUs where each character has chances to mess the other up pretty badly, I feel that with wolf neither character can do anything extremely bad against the other. Bair is tough but it can be powershield jabbed. Wolf is easy to jab but that's offset by his weight.

Idk... I played every notable Ike main at APEX aside from Ryo and I still think it's fine in +1, although like the ordered MU chart for Wolf shows it's definitely closer to 0 than +2. Saying bair can be PS > jabbed is kinda like me saying fair can be PS > fsmash/dsmash/DACUSed; it's true but things don't really play out that way in practice too often :x imo, Wolf's superior aerial attack speed really helps, as well as avoiding jab > utilt easily with his fallspeed. I recall Holms and Mr. Doom saying this before, but it feels like both characters can avoid getting hit by a kill move very well lol. Wolf's shff bair spacing is pretty effective on Ike imo, as is fsmash for general punishment, and Wolf has an easier time juggling Ike and harassing him offstage than the other way around. It's not a particularly large advantage overall, but I do feel the MU fits more cleanly with Wolf's +1s than with his 0s.

It's weird, almost all of the Wolf players argued that Ike / Wolf should be even on our panel - it were the Ike players that didn't care about changing the match-up so a discussion never happened.

I don't think this is true... pretty sure we didn't submit a vote for Ike being 0, but we were close to it. I think only you and Seagull wanted it at 0, but yeah, if the Ikes brought it up it'd probably end up at 0 lol.

 

[Slhoka]

Marc, the chart is a bit off... the top and side don't list Peach/Pit/Wolf/Kirby in the same order >__>

Oops ! Indeed, it seems I screwed up when ordering these. I'll fix that within a few hours.

 

[chillbologna]

The chart shows wolf vs pikachu as even, and pit vs pikachu as +3...

Shouldn't that be swapped, and pit set as +1 pika? Not arguing match ups; it just disagrees with the individual character spread.

EDIT: just saw last post, that fix will probably get it sorted out

 

[Slhoka]

It should be fixed, now.

 

[zeldasmash]

Will there be download links to the chart, like the first matchup chart did?

 

[Shadocat]

I agre with Pika being -1 vs lucario. it should be even, considering lucario mains have been getting wrecked by Pikachus lately *cough* Trela vs Z *cough*

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

whatever happened to posting write ups on like pit vs pika or pit vs dk being only a -1 now when that is still clearly a -2 imo? i wanna see what happened with DK to make that MU suddenly better. and while i can agree with pika as a -1, i still want to know why it went down

 

[Tesh]

I agre with Pika being -1 vs lucario. it should be even, considering lucario mains have been getting wrecked by Pikachus lately *cough* Trela vs Z *cough*

K PRIME DID IT FIRST!!

Also have other top Lucarios (junebug) been losing to pika?

 

[Cassio]

Yeah, pretty frequently actually. Z usually beats pitbull, ESAM beat Junebug at Xanadu. I guess it doesnt happen that often but recent skirmishes have gone in Pikas favor. I think GW and Lucario are the kind of MUs where the disadvantage doesnt matter but you can still kind of tell. My personal chart (scaled differently than this one) has ICs, Diddy, and Olimar in that order as -2 and GW, Lucario in that order as -1.

A huge chunk of write-ups are done but are still on hold (including pika vs pit). I think Marc said he was going to add them soon in a recent post After that if theres still more MUs people want write-ups for there should be a big list made somewhere so the panels can be contacted, its hard to go through 50 pages.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

they said they would put it up soon like 3 weeks ago

 

[Cassio]

Yeah they need to be quality checked by aisight I think, and hes been in california playing and recording, apex recording, donating thousands of dollars to smashers, and generally being a super hero.

Since you have been asking a lot heres pika vs pit (written by ESAM) until they get it in the OP. The caveat being that it could still be changed.

Pit vs Pika

After all discussion, the main reasons Pikachu has a slight advantage is because of his superior damage output, superior killing, and ability to edgeguard. Pit definitely puts up a good fight against Pikachu with his close-combat moves such as jab and d-tilt, and he obviously has an advantage camping due to his amazing arrows. However, the killing and damage output are enough to tip this Matchup into Pikachu's favor.

If you have other questions about it or pikas discussions in general I think any of the pikas would be happy to answer them.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

to be honest that was the exact reasons i thought it would be. im satisfied atm. now i will happily be patient for another couple weeks.

and then i will ask about the dk pit write up as i really want to know how a character we can 0-62+% true cg>attacks, has the easiest recovery to mirror shield, is 100% outprioritized by our whole movest (and our moves are faster), is easily hit with our op bair, and has no real solution to perfect spaced planking especially when combined with scrooging and circle camping with the tactic in this video (i know i lose at the end but im making a point). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P836RYUudzM&list=UUsOy2X6gEclSCyFlDOUKBCQ&index=3&feature=plpp_video

not to mention arrows really rack up the damage both on and offstage and set up gimps and the fact that our jab, side-b, and nair damn near invalidate his shield is now only a -1 for donkey. what possible factor appeared out of no-where to make this better for donkey kong?

oh ya and our cps on him should we lose make it horrid for him. i swear if the only thing they mention is killpower, im gonna laugh because hitting pit with dk is nothing short of incredibly hard

 

[Cassio]

Youre gonna have to talk to the pits or DKs on that one. It looks like the MU wasnt changed, and on MUs that didnt change there wasnt a discussion between panels so there also wouldnt be a formal write-up. Your best bet is to ask on the pit boards for the people who were on the panel on why they didnt want to change it.

 

[Flayl]

on Bowser the cg doesn't work if you start it at like 30%

probably why it's not a big deal to DK either. Get hit by arrows or outzone a pit that's trying too hard to get a grab, done deal

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

on Bowser the cg doesn't work if you start it at like 30%

probably why it's not a big deal to DK either. Get hit by arrows or outzone a pit that's trying too hard to get a grab, done deal

but you can do fthrow> stutter step fsmash both of these characters up until around 35%. also fthrow>dash attack>utilt or uair works for a long time too. plus pit doesn't have to go for the grab. hell grab or not the MU is still bad for them. but the fact that they risk getting 60+ damage from one grab until around 35% is pretty damn bad. not to mention if you just air release dk at the edge it true combos into a buffered uncharged arrow unless they dodge or eat it with up b and if they pick either of these options they get reflected or are now to low to recover so he has to take the arrow and then risk getting gimped out of his second jump. seriously how is all of this only -1?

and yes i have a lot of experiance against dk.

 

[Krystedez]

v is +2 Pit's favor, why are you asking why it's +1? Or are you asking DKs to explain why they think it's +1 only?

So confused.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

on the chart it says -1. but in the character spread it says otherwise. i didn't notice that till just now

edit:

didn't see that they changed the chart. gave it color and such. when it was just black it said it was only -1. but now i remember people saying the characters were out of order on the chart. please ignore my rant

 

[Z'zgashi]

The black chart had a lot of mistakes, it said Yoshi went even with Oli lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

I agre with Pika being -1 vs lucario. it should be even, considering lucario mains have been getting wrecked by Pikachus lately *cough* Trela vs Z *cough*

One of those matches iirc he went fox, which bodies luc. Juuuuust saying.

I was so sad about that as a Luc main, but man, Z went far. I never thought very highly of him ever since he lost to a Marth from our region that always dashed lol, but he must have been hauling a lot in improvement to beat Zex and Trela in some sorta tough Matchups.

Conversely, Trela has like at least 5 wins at least over Kprime, and beat ESAM in crews. I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater quite yet.

I personally believe -1 is a good number. Pika has some inherent weaknesses in the MU going against him, but it's easily shruggable and even if the players are close in skill level, either can very possibly walk away with a win.

 

[ortiz34]

Tier list should follow this chart :D
I.E
Tier 1: MK
Tier 2: ICs to Wario
Tier 3: ZZS to ROB
Tier 4: Yoshi to Mario
Tier 5: Samus to Ganon

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi for the best of the worst characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi for forever overrated tier.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol at Yoshi being overrated, he's a solid Low-Mid tier.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zelda's overrated.

She could probably be below Ganon.

 

[Coney]

yoshi for always being talked about for some stupid reason tier

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I think D3 takes that one Coney... Yoshi is a close second though.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I just dont see how Yoshi can possibly be overrated, any lower and he's practically a Low Tier. We've gone through this before, he used to be there, but guess what? Everyone realized he doesnt belong there, so moved him up to the very bottom of Mid Tier, which is pretty much the same place he is now.

 

[Coney]

I think D3 takes that one Coney... Yoshi is a close second though.

only because of doc king, though, no other ddds ever talk about the guy

nearly every yoshi on the boards shoehorns yoshi into pretty much any conversation imaginable

 

[Exceladon City]

Remember that one Marth mod?

 

[Shaya]

What Marth mod?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

only because of doc king, though, no other ddds ever talk about the guy

nearly every yoshi on the boards shoehorns yoshi into pretty much any conversation imaginable

This is what I tend to see, yeah. How else is the character supposed to get exposure?

Also, I beat 4GOD in another tournament set with PT. +/-2, IMO.

 

[Exceladon City]

What Marth mod?

It's become painfully apparent that you namesearch "Marth".

Also, who's the wiseguy that said Luigi v ZSS is -2? Because I'm still banging my head against the wall over that. -1 if anything. ZSS is pretty easy.

 

[Shaya]

It's become painfully apparent that you namesearch "Marth"..

I've actually never done that.
I don't think I've "proposed" something in any of these threads for quite a while (>year). I reply to things, that's about it.

 

[Doc King]

Zelda's overrated.

She could probably be below Ganon.

I think she's better than Ganon. Zelda is slightly faster, has a good glide toss (Which makes her disadvantaged against Diddy instead of hard countered), doesn't get chaingrabbed hard like Ganon (Which makes Pikachu and King Dedede disadvantages instead of hard countereds), and actually has advantages and even matchups like Bowser (+1), Ganon (+2), Puff (0), and Falcon (0).

Zelda does suck though, but I think Ganon is worse. Ganon has like a handful of auto losses, which means Ganon is really useless.

Edit: I think Ganon should be in a tier of his own called the Ganon Tier. (Like Roll Tier in MvC2)

This is what I tend to see, yeah. How else is the character supposed to get exposure?

Also, I beat 4GOD in another tournament set with PT. +/-2, IMO.

I think it's a hard counter for D3. I mean for all of them, D3 can send them off of the stage easily and edge guard very well.

 

[NickRiddle]

It's become painfully apparent that you namesearch "Marth".

Also, who's the wiseguy that said Luigi v ZSS is -2? Because I'm still banging my head against the wall over that. -1 if anything. ZSS is pretty easy.

I think it is +4 ZSS, but I argues for +2. Everybody agreed to it when I said d-smash + bair ***** him.

 

[Exceladon City]

I think it is +4 ZSS, but I argues for +2. Everybody agreed to it when I said d-smash + bair ***** him.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about your idea of the MU.

 

[Doc King]

lol since when would Zero Suit Samus auto win against Luigi?

 

[Exceladon City]

lol since when would Zero Suit Samus auto win against Luigi?

When NickRiddle says so because apparently his word is law around these parts.

 

[NickRiddle]

Explain the mu to me then.