Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Fuujin]

Lol at thinking ed is a has-been.

And ed definitely goes more zelda than you guys even give him credit for.

I was talking about DM.

Not going to get into how much Zelda he uses because according to the people in his pools at APEX he hardly used her at all.

All players that were chosen for the chart have a lot of general knowledge.

high-level players talking about the matchups.

 

[Vinylic.]

Please, do not go arguing about high level players and start off with who should have been doing the w/e MUs, fuujin.

You were not even there doing all of that . So how could you say that they suck?
Quit showing off/overpowering or something and do something if you want to make it right.

 

[Doc King]

The thing is though if the BBR players either don't use Zelda a lot or don't even play her or even the game, then the matchups wouldn't be very updated and accurate. You would need experienced and true Zelda mains to make a proper matchup chart of her. I would agree with Fuujin here.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The thing is though if the BBR players either don't use Zelda a lot or don't even play her or even the game, then the matchups wouldn't be very updated and accurate. You would need experienced and true Zelda mains to make a proper matchup chart of her. I would agree with Fuujin here.

If "true Zelda mains" aren't as knowledgeable at the game, I would say that their input isn't as useful, for sure.

I don't pick PT for a ton of tournament matchups, but that doesn't make me any less useful for matchup input.

 

[zmx]

Wait a minute.

There's something really illogical here. Just become someone mains a character, that doesn't make them an expert on him/her (even if they regularly attend tournys and use them 100% of the time).

I think we should go by results, not about how much someone lurves a character. There are a lot of top players that have done more with their pocket secondaries than most mains of those characters will ever do. Why should we take the opinions of the character mains just because their mains?

If a terrible Ganon player has been attending tournys for 4 years going 100% Ganon and has no results to show I'd much rather take the advice of any pocket Ganon that has accomplished something with him.

That is not to say Fuujin isn't a top Zelda without results. I'm just saying this in general. It's illogical to value someone's opinion more because they claim to main that character. The mere fact that they main the character doesn't make them better with it or more knowledgeable than people that secondary the character.

 

[Doc King]

If "true Zelda mains" aren't as knowledgeable at the game, I would say that their input isn't as useful, for sure.

I don't pick PT for a ton of tournament matchups, but that doesn't make me any less useful for matchup input.

Well, isn't Fuujin more knowledgable since he actually playz Zelda to this day? (Which is the current metagame)

 

[Vinylic.]

That is true but is he doing anything about it?
Does he know anything about it?

We can only find out if HE DOES IT.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, isn't Fuujin more knowledgable since he actually playz Zelda to this day? (Which is the current metagame)

No; that's a terrible way to figure out who knows more. Sticking with a character for ages means little for their matchup knowledge if they're still not a high-level player by the end of it.

I'm pretty behind in the traditional PT metagame. I don't do much of the shellshifting stuff with Squirtle, I've been lax about figuring out ideal camping with Ivysaur, and I'm just now putting in Charizard's U-Smash out-of-shield into my game. Obvious, very helpful things that have been second-nature to people for years now. That doesn't mean that I don't know the most about my character.

Results are what matters, as there's little reason to put your hopes on a player who is supposedly knowledgeable, but doesn't do much good with their character when it comes to tournaments.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

That's really sad how ppl who don't even use Zelda ar ein the BBR for Zelda while the true Zelda mains aren't. That's like the worst way to put in matchups for a character.

I've seen the aib Zelda boards and I saw someone saying Zelda vs Climbers was even. I really think that's really stupid because Zelda will have a hard time landing anything without getting infinited.

its not just the zelda boards its almost all of the low tiers so it's expected. If I remember correctly the Mario panel was made up of people that dropped Mario in like 08-09 or don't even use the character. So dumb mistakes are inevitable, sure I don't agree with some of them like the lol -2 against Peach and Wolf. Just shrug it off and keep on going.

 

[Fuujin]

I think we should go by results, not about how much someone lurves a character. There are a lot of top players that have done more with their pocket secondaries than most mains of those characters will ever do. Why should we take the opinions of the character mains just because their mains?

Lol yes
someone please show me NinjaLink, Mr Eh and DMs results.
I'd LOVE to see these.

That is true but is he doing anything about it?
Does he know anything about it?
We can only find out if HE DOES IT.

I have no idea what you're even asking.

No; that's a terrible way to figure out who knows more. Sticking with a character for ages means little for their matchup knowledge if they're still not a high-level player by the end of it.

You trying to say something reflex???

Results are what matters, as there's little reason to put your hopes on a player who is supposedly knowledgeable, but doesn't do much good with their character when it comes to tournaments.

You know this is such a great idea I think we should go for it.

Let's look at results.

People who aren't on the Zelda Panel.

Riot(GodAtHand)

Spoiler

DNA Gaming & Entertainment #20
Framingham, MA (12/3/2011)
5th out of 16 singles.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=315109

Dimensions - Reboot of TAER.
Simsbury CT. (11/19/11)
5th out of 17
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314442

DNA #19*Meta Knight Banned
Framingham MA, (9/17/2011)
5th out of 27 singles.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310981

Smashachusetts II
Springfield MA, (10/8/2011)
7th out of 67 entrants.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312375

KTAR 6
South River, NJ (08/13/11)
33rd out of 130 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308914

DNA Gaming & Entertainment #18
Worcester, MA (07/16/11)
9th out of 28 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307188

Mass Madness Legends 2
Framingham, MA (07/02/11)
5th out of 29 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282674

TAER 5
(03/05/11)
9th out of 28 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298918

DNA Gaming & Entertainment #12
Worcester, MA (12/18/10)
7th out of 24 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=293889

Mass Madness 23[COLLAPSE="2011"]

Framingham MA, (10/16/10)
3rd out of 28 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=289323

[/COLLAPSE]

Fujin

Spoiler

E4H: Glacia
North Hollywood, CA (8/27/11)
13th out of 23 singles
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=12527

Brainshock Beta
Iowa City, IA (07/02/11)
49th out of 65 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306380

Ogre Smash 2
St. Louis, MO (05/21/11)
13th out of 20 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304015
Used:

Ogre Smash
St. Louis, MO (04/16/11)
9th out of 25 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301696

School is in Session 4
Cincinnati, OH (01/08/11)
49th out of 112 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295362

KMYM 2(Kahoka Me Your Moves 2)
Kahoka, MO (11/13/10)
17th out of 25th
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291326
Used:

HD! Remix(Hot ****ings! Remix)
St Louis, MO (10/23/10)
33rd out of 49th
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288010
Used:

TAS (Tornado Alley Smash)
Lenexa, KS (10/09/10)
13th out of 42 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288635
Used:

School is in Session 3
Cincinnati, OH (09/11/10)
33rd out of 117 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286292

People who are on the Zelda Panel.

Darkmusician

Spoiler

SBHMXXIV
Honolulu, HI (09/26/10)
1st out of 17 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287858
Used:

NinjaLink

Spoiler

Mr.Eh
[COLLAPSE=]

[/COLLAPSE]








Soooo according to your own arguments, the people on the panel still have no business makin MU decisioons for Zelda.



#OOP

 

[Espy Rose]

Fuujin too good.

 

[Doc King]

Lol yes
someone please show me NinjaLink, Mr Eh and DMs results.
I'd LOVE to see these.



I have no idea what you're even asking.


You trying to say something reflex???



You know this is such a great idea I think we should go for it.

Let's look at results.

People who aren't on the Zelda Panel.

Riot(GodAtHand)

Spoiler

DNA Gaming & Entertainment #20
Framingham, MA (12/3/2011)
5th out of 16 singles.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=315109

Dimensions - Reboot of TAER.
Simsbury CT. (11/19/11)
5th out of 17
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314442

DNA #19*Meta Knight Banned
Framingham MA, (9/17/2011)
5th out of 27 singles.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310981

Smashachusetts II
Springfield MA, (10/8/2011)
7th out of 67 entrants.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312375

KTAR 6
South River, NJ (08/13/11)
33rd out of 130 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308914

DNA Gaming & Entertainment #18
Worcester, MA (07/16/11)
9th out of 28 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307188

Mass Madness Legends 2
Framingham, MA (07/02/11)
5th out of 29 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282674

TAER 5
(03/05/11)
9th out of 28 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298918

DNA Gaming & Entertainment #12
Worcester, MA (12/18/10)
7th out of 24 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=293889

Mass Madness 23[COLLAPSE="2011"]

Framingham MA, (10/16/10)
3rd out of 28 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=289323

[/COLLAPSE]

Fujin

Spoiler

E4H: Glacia
North Hollywood, CA (8/27/11)
13th out of 23 singles
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=12527

Brainshock Beta
Iowa City, IA (07/02/11)
49th out of 65 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306380

Ogre Smash 2
St. Louis, MO (05/21/11)
13th out of 20 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304015
Used:

Ogre Smash
St. Louis, MO (04/16/11)
9th out of 25 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301696

School is in Session 4
Cincinnati, OH (01/08/11)
49th out of 112 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295362

KMYM 2(Kahoka Me Your Moves 2)
Kahoka, MO (11/13/10)
17th out of 25th
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291326
Used:

HD! Remix(Hot ****ings! Remix)
St Louis, MO (10/23/10)
33rd out of 49th
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288010
Used:

TAS (Tornado Alley Smash)
Lenexa, KS (10/09/10)
13th out of 42 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288635
Used:

School is in Session 3
Cincinnati, OH (09/11/10)
33rd out of 117 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286292

People who are on the Zelda Panel.

Darkmusician

Spoiler

SBHMXXIV
Honolulu, HI (09/26/10)
1st out of 17 singles
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287858
Used:

NinjaLink

Spoiler

Mr.Eh
[COLLAPSE=]

[/COLLAPSE]








Soooo according to your own arguments, the people on the panel still have no business makin MU decisioons for Zelda.



#OOP

Wow, you just completely proved that the ppl on the panel don't have business in making Zelda's matchups. Good job.

I hate when someone who doesn't play ur main at all thinks he knows a lot more than you do.

Fujin, just curious, but what do you think Zelda's matchups should be?

Fuujin too good.

^

 

[Fuujin]

-4
-3
-2
-1
0


Not sure about Bowser and Jigglypuff, but Riot did lost to puffster recently and Idt he knew the match up so it's between 0 and -1.

 

[ChocoNaner]

That would imply there's a possibility of The God losing to that trash you call a character though :I

Also LOL @ Diddy being only +2 against Zelda when sonic is +2 too I:

ichu:

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lol at you thinking you know more about zelda than fujin

 

[ChocoNaner]

Because I obviously mentioned that I was talking about the MU from a zelda player's PoV :I

derp ichu:

 

[Fuujin]

But I said it's either -1 or 0 so Jigglypuff doesn't lose regardless.

I don't think Diddy is that bad because of Zelda's glidetoss and reflector(even though it's bad).

 

[Doc King]

-4
-3
-2
-1
0


Not sure about Bowser and Jigglypuff, but Riot did lost to puffster recently and Idt he knew the match up so it's between 0 and -1.

This seems pretty good.

 

[ChocoNaner]

I thought about her reflector but I don't think it's built to counter naners like Pit's or Falco's or even Mario's and glide-tossing can't really be given too much credit since a lot of characters also have good gts and still get ***** (such as marf and DK) I:

The main thing I want to ask you though is: what's your opinion on the monkey flip kick? It seems to shut her down almost as good as Fair and Bair :I

ichu:

 

[Laem]

When the best g&w in EU played the best EU Zelda back in 2010 it was a very close set. Having some serious doubts at that MU being "unwinnable" >.> And the zelda player was barely better if at all.
But w/e. I think her BBR MU's are way better than your chart anyway.

 

[Yikarur]

Zelda is so underrated, it's awkward D:

 

[KuroganeHammer]

-4
-3
-2
-1
0


Not sure about Bowser and Jigglypuff, but Riot did lost to puffster recently and Idt he knew the match up so it's between 0 and -1.

THIS ALL OF MY YES

Well, I think Jigglypuff/Yoshi should be at least -1. And Falco, ICs and Marth are far worse match ups than G&W (I have no idea if Fuujin has any exp against either of these characters though), but other than that, this is generally correct.

 

[Doc King]

How the hell is Zelda underrated?

Zelda is so crappy in this game. She has a very limited metagame, poor mobility and speed, gets killed stupid easily, big hurtbox, and extremely escapable options.

 

[Delta-cod]

-4
-3
-2
-1
0


Not sure about Bowser and Jigglypuff, but Riot did lost to puffster recently and Idt he knew the match up so it's between 0 and -1.

I'm curious as to why you think Zelda goes even with Yoshi. Could you explain it a bit?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

probably because yoshi sucks and against a character that can't jump out of shield or out camp (not because dins is good, but because like it or not nayru's love in all it's crap set of a move is a good enough reflector to shut down slow *** eggs) along with her kill power and yoshi's big ol hurt box it is enough to make it an even MU.

thats my guess

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The main thing I want to ask you though is: what's your opinion on the monkey flip kick? It seems to shut her down almost as good as Fair and Bair :I

ichu:

Let's just say we had a member who once suggested that Diddy's monkey flip shut down all of Zelda's options.

We laughed.

 

[Fuujin]

I'm curious as to why you think Zelda goes even with Yoshi. Could you explain it a bit?

a character that can't jump out of shield or out camp (not because dins is good, but because like it or not nayru's love in all it's crap set of a move is a good enough reflector to shut down slow *** eggs)

Well this is true, Nayru's prevents her from being out camped by Eggs but at the same time if Yoshi wanted to run away the entire match nothing is really stopping him.

I think it's pretty even from my experience playing Hades, though I hear he was just bad at that MU when we played, but Zelda's Up smash seems to pose somewhat of a threat against Yoshi's aerial approaches and I think Yoshi's shield being bad sort of hurts him in this math up.
Zelda practically has no good options against an opponent that can shield her attacks, her grab is too slow to punish opponents that are shielding.
Yoshi having a bad shield makes more of her moves safe IMO.
Then she also has the d tilt to sweet spotted b air on him.

I thought about her reflector but I don't think it's built to counter naners like Pit's or Falco's or even Mario's and glide-tossing can't really be given too much credit since a lot of characters also have good gts and still get ***** (such as marf and DK) I:

The main thing I want to ask you though is: what's your opinion on the monkey flip kick? It seems to shut her down almost as good as Fair and Bair :I

It's funny that you mention that, because I've been saying how Monkey Flip sort of beats out or trades with a majority of her moves almost as long as I've been on smashboards.

These are the reactions I would get.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10953209&postcount=4

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10955515&postcount=5

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10963028&postcount=7

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10966729&postcount=9

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10968416&postcount=10

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10968528&postcount=14

According to the Zelda boards Monkey Flip is a bad move that Zelda should NEVER be getting hit with, silly me!

This is back when Zelda was mid tier I beleive and ya know these were the same reactions I was getting when I said Zelda would fall down the tier list.

BUT DONT LISTEN TO ME
WHAT DO I KNOW IM JUST A SCRUB WHO DOESNT KNOW WHAT HES TALKING ABOUT
HERPADERP

Edit: Aero I'm pretty sure that member youre talking about was me, I never said it beats all of her options but I did say how it beats out or cancels a majority of her commonly used moves(F smash, U smash, D tilt).

 

[Delta-cod]

Well this is true, Nayru's prevents her from being out camped by Eggs but at the same time if Yoshi wanted to run away the entire match nothing is really stopping him.

I think it's pretty even from my experience playing Hades, though I hear he was just bad at that MU when we played, but Zelda's Up smash seems to pose somewhat of a threat against Yoshi's aerial approaches and I think Yoshi's shield being bad sort of hurts him in this math up.
Zelda practically has no good options against an opponent that can shield her attacks, her grab is too slow to punish opponents that are shielding.
Yoshi having a bad shield makes more of her moves safe IMO.
Then she also has the d tilt to sweet spotted b air on him.

Granted, but at the same time, we don't really have a reason to be approaching, you know? We're pretty much safer at neutral (not necessarily throwing eggs), and we carry momentum MUCH better than Zelda does. Getting hit by lightning kicks has never been a big issue with me, neither has Usmash really, unless I run into it.

I feel like Yoshi has an easier time getting the lead, and when he gets it, he has no problem abusing the fact that Zelda must approach to carry it further. The same isn't really true for Zelda.

 

[Fuujin]

That's true.
And even if Zelda does have the lead, Yoshi has a much better time approaching and doing damage safely than Zelda does.
Especially considering Yoshi's airspeed and pivot grab game, and idk about Yoshi but Zelda doesn't really have a "good" counter pick that's legal, yet she has quite a few stages she wouldn't mind avoiding.
I could see it being -1, too bad APEX was such a mess set up wise that I never got to play any of the Yoshis there.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Can't Zelda just U-smash flip kick OOS?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Edit: Aero I'm pretty sure that member youre talking about was me, I never said it beats all of her options but I did say how it beats out or cancels a majority of her commonly used moves(F smash, U smash, D tilt).

lol yeah, I only just realised that. x_x

I wouldn't say it beats out f-smash unless it's really badly spaced. It'll beat out up-smash (sometimes) and dtilt though, only because they have rubbish horizontal range.

But really, monkey flip is bad and Diddy's fair is about 10 times better. I honestly cannot think of a situation where Monkey flip is more useful than his fair apart from recovery.

Can't Zelda just U-smash flip kick OOS?

This is pretty much Zelda's metagame. It's like Bowser's up b, but not as good.

This implies your opponent was stupid enough to approach Zelda though. lol

She's got d-smash OOS too, but even that's pretty meh.

 

[Delta-cod]

That's true.
And even if Zelda does have the lead, Yoshi has a much better time approaching and doing damage safely than Zelda does.
Especially considering Yoshi's airspeed and pivot grab game, and idk about Yoshi but Zelda doesn't really have a "good" counter pick that's legal, yet she has quite a few stages she wouldn't mind avoiding.
I could see it being -1, too bad APEX was such a mess set up wise that I never got to play any of the Yoshis there.

I can't think of any solid CP for Yoshi either. I'd imagine Delfino could be useful because the non solid stage gives us more recovery options than you (I think. I can't see Zelda getting any huge benefits off of it), and we're generally flexible enough to deal with all the terrain anyways.

I didn't get to play half the people I wanted to at Apex. You were one of them.

 

[Fuujin]

Yeah the so called "friendly room" had nothing but Melee, 64 and Street Fighter set ups in it and in the other room every hour the announcer would tell someone if they were caught playing anything other than tournament sets they would be DQd :/.

Delfino is actually bad about half of the time for Zelda.
The main platform that can be passed through makes it really hard to sweet spot the ledge with Farore's Wind so she has the risk of teleporting through it, so it's usually better to teleport onstage, and that always leaves her open for a punish.
Same thing with Halberd and Brinstar.

 

[Laem]

l
This is pretty much Zelda's metagame. It's like Bowser's up b, but not as good.

This implies your opponent was stupid enough to approach Zelda though. lol

She's got d-smash OOS too, but even that's pretty meh.

That awkward moment where even flipkick is considered a dumb approach -_-

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It is? I mean, if it hits a shield, Diddy will get punished by just about every character in the game. The same can't be said of something like his fair or bair though, since they don't force him to move forward.

Unless you were agreeing with me? I'm not sure, I can't tell.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It is? I mean, if it hits a shield, Diddy will get punished by just about every character in the game. The same can't be said of something like his fair or bair though, since they don't force him to move forward.

Unless you were agreeing with me? I'm not sure, I can't tell.

You can only reliably punish it with an OOS attack or a grab. Any character that has to shield drop to attack has a hard time punishing it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

if monkey flip hits a shield it grabs you dude. wat are you talking about? you don't have to immediately kick at the beginning of it like a nube. (obviously doesn't play top diddies very often)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

if monkey flip hits a shield it grabs you dude. wat are you talking about? you don't have to immediately kick at the beginning of it like a nube. (obviously doesn't play top diddies very often)

Who? I was just talking about the kick since that's what everyone else is talking about. If you monkey flip kick too late, you can't jump away and you'll land with lag. If your not going to buffer the kick then it's best not to do it if you know you're going to land with lag.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah I'm pretty sure we were talking about the kick. I don't think the command grab can beat out Zelda's attacks. They're too disjointed.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

if she shields, don't kick, if she drops her shield kick. gnes does this to better characters than zelda all the time. if they get messed up by it, zelda definately does. (play him all the time, watch him do this to people all the time)

monkey flip for most broken move after shuttle loop