Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[SaveMeJebus]

I dont care about spelling whwn im typing from a phone

 

[bubbaking]

You mean you bearly care about spelling whwn typing from a phone.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Are you sure you're not doc king?

 

[bubbaking]

Bearly

10bears

Edit - On-topic: item play probably influences the MU values involving Diddy (and maybe Peach) greatly. I always find it hard to actually delegate a difficulty to fighting Diddy because how much of what we are seeing is due to the players' proficiency, or lack thereof, with items?

For example, Diddy:Lucario is supposed to be a +1 and I don't know how contested that value is, but watching John12346 vs NinjaLink in the LFs of Impact! really made it look like it could possibly be something closer to even with good item play, something that I personally know John prides himself in. Watching some really good DDDs (like Vex and 9B) fight against Diddy has given me the same outlook. Diddys are obviously supposed to be top-notch with their own items but how much are we factoring in how well his opponents can use his naners.

 

[infiniteV115]

Neither NinjaLink nor John#s are top players (I would barely consider them high level...well maybe John#s idk I haven't seen him play in a while, but not NinjaLink) and thus they aren't really reliable players whose results you can use to determine what the MU ratio is.

Trela vs Gnes is ideal for that lol

 

[Alphicans]

Yo man ninjalink beat m2k in 08

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddys don't know how to use bananas. Most have no self control. Also, diddy will always be the best with bananas because of his backward glide toss and the fact that he controls when they come out

 

[bubbaking]

Neither NinjaLink nor John#s are top players (I would barely consider them high level...well maybe John#s idk I haven't seen him play in a while, but not NinjaLink) and thus they aren't really reliable players whose results you can use to determine what the MU ratio is.

Trela vs Gnes is ideal for that lol

I was just making a point, tbh, not actually trying to prove a MU value. That MU could be +3 for all I care or know. I could go into my own experiences vs Nuke's Diddy to also prove my case, but I just thought I'd name some players that everyone knows.

 

[Tavitoes]

So... Olimar is a tough MU for Ike. Hmm. That IS a new one on me.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Wolf vs Falco is definitely -2 and one of the main reasons why I stopped maining him. Falco gets a 50% stock lead every stock and if he lands a single hit, he could just sit back and wait for you to approach. If the Falco is smart, he won't try to force a kill which means you lose out on a lot of free damage. Falco can also just continue to wait til the kill just comes to him.

 

[NickRiddle]

And this stops here.

WE'LL JUST SEE ABOUT THAT, STAR WOL F

 

[SFA Smiley]

Sorry I'm new and nose speak much English, but I urgently need to respond to questions as they organize a tournament and I need to know if
1. Camping with Mario is Legal?
2. Fleeing with mario legal?
3. Mario Cape Stall legal?
4. What is not legal with mario?
Thanks, please answer me soon because I need to know now.

Dat new Mario tech

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'd personally even go so far to say that Wolf-Falco is -3 for Wolf.

It's just such an incredibly ****ty MU.

Of course Wolf is literally a BAir in most MUs.

Falco will take none of that **** though.

 

[Luco]

Wolf has that Nair as well, doesn't he? Also a few other gtho moves? o.O

EDIT: Revive, this thread... REVIVE!!

 

[bubbaking]

Idk know much about using Wolf, but I feel like his nair is inferior to those of Fox (good sex kick) and Falco (wonderful multi-hit move that links into jab and a whole crapload of other things). Of course, that might not say much about Wolf:Falco.

 

[NickRiddle]

I don't know know. - Bubbaking

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Wolf's Nair is a pretty decent mixup. It's not like, great for damage racking but you can act out of it pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure it has little to no landing lag.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Wolf's nair is bad

 

[#HBC | Joker]

it's only "bad" because his fair and bair are just so much better.

 

[Tesh]

nah his nair really is bad. its like sonic's nair except instead of a hitbox with knockback, it just.....hits them like fox lasers. its pretty useless aside from jab locking and lots of bad moves can do that (like sonic's jab).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It doesn't induce hitstun a lot of the time iirc, which makes it awful

 

[Luco]

There's a word for that... what is it again? Where you hit something and it doesn't actually do any knockback, just gives damage? Like when you hit Bowser in his FS.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Giga Bowser has super armour

I'm pretty sure Wolf's nair doesn't actually give super armour to whatever it hits.

 

[Luco]

Well yea but I could've sworn there was something else for it...

Oh well, super armour is fine as well I suppose.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You might be thinking of a phantom hit in Melee where you miss by 1 pixel and it does the damage without doing knockback.

But I doubt Wolf's Nair phantom hits all the time, and I don't even know if there even are phantom hits in Melee

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It does half the damage, and pixel probably isn't the unit of measurement you should use for Smash.
/nit-picking

There are no phantom hits in Brawl.

 

[Luco]

Nah, in brawl if you're just slightly too far away, you get sparks coming off the object. I like to call it tinking the object. I've done with Dtilt, Fsmash... even Usmash. That's insane when that happens.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't know know. - Bubbaking

No, I don't know. But I feel like I'm missing the point being made here.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Didn't know Nair was so balls. I never use it much (less than once per match), but it usually works when I do. Probably just because they aren't expecting it.

 

[Luco]

It has several hits. The original few frames have it cause knockback, otherwise the opponent doesn't really go anywhere.

 

[hyoipear]

Okay, this isn't on topic right now, but does anyone know know why Kirby has +2 on Lucas? Is it because of gimping potential?

 

[Luigi player]

It does half the damage, and pixel probably isn't the unit of measurement you should use for Smash.
/nit-picking

There are no phantom hits in Brawl.

It's funny cuz I remember Sakurai talking about "phantom hits" on one of the Dojo updates... at least iirc... and they should've been just like in Melee...

 

[John12346]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Glancing Blows: http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html (scroll down)

Glancing Blows and Phantom Hits are different though in that Glancing Blows you have to just barely miss the opponent, and Phantom Hits you could make an attack that looked like it hit its mark DEAD CENTER and for whatever reason it just doesn't work(although you still get the damage).

Also, the later parts of Wolf's Nair just have no flinch hitboxes. It's a shame because that move just looks so cool...

 

[bubbaking]

John, I think you got it wrong. Phantom hits happen in the same way Glancing Blows do, when the hitbox of an attack passes tangential to the hurtbox of the victim. The sound and visual effect produced make it look like the attack hit normally but no KB or hitstun is induced and only half-damage is dealt.

Edit: And how can you say that nair looks cool when it's just a copy of Sonic's. We were just talking about how boring Sonic's moveset is.

 

[infiniteV115]

The thing listed as a 'glancing blow' in that article occurs when the attack barely misses the opponent's hurtbox. Absolutely no damage and knockback are dealt and the opponent doesn't flinch. And I think this only exists in Brawl.

Phantom hits (I've only heard this term used for an occurrence that seems to be exclusive to Melee) is, I believe, when the hitbox and hurtbox connect from the maximum possible distance, resulting in no knockback/flinching but still damage (dunno if it's full damage).

 

[bubbaking]

Maximum possible distance is practically tangential which could also be seen as "barely missing" (Sakurai was never specific). Seeing as how Brawl was partly copied and pasted from Melee, I wouldn't be surprised. Phantom Hits/Glancing Blows are the result of the best possible spacing of both the attacker and the defender. Melee rewards the attacker and Brawl rewards the defender. Goes to show how these games were supposed to be played.

 

[infiniteV115]

My point was that glancing blows deal no damage whereas phantom blows do, you know, to address this:

Phantom hits happen in the same way Glancing Blows do, when the hitbox of an attack passes tangential to the hurtbox of the victim. The sound and visual effect produced make it look like the attack hit normally but no KB or hitstun is induced and only half-damage is dealt.

Also, maximum spacing =/= best spacing. I'm sure a Marth player in Melee would rather get a tipper dair offstage than a phantom dair any day.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

My point was that glancing blows deal no damage whereas phantom blows do, you know, to address this:

Also, maximum spacing =/= best spacing. I'm sure a Marth player in Melee would rather get a tipper dair offstage than a phantom dair any day.

And Puff players definitely do not want Phantom Rests

 

[bubbaking]

That's why Phantom Hits are dumb. The maximum possible spacing for a successful hit SHOULD give one the full rewards of that hit. It's why I like Glancing Blows more than Phantom Hits.

Edit: And to clarify, by "same way", I meant they're performed in the same manner, they just have different results.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's why Phantom Hits are dumb. The maximum possible spacing for a successful hit SHOULD give one the full rewards of that hit. It's why I like Glancing Blows more than Phantom Hits.

So given that you hit the opponent with a maximally spaced move, you'd rather them take 0 damage and no hitstun/knockback over them taking some damage and no hitstun/knockback because you think one should be rewarded for spacing a move to its maximum distance?

wat