Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Venks]

If you're going to be so matter-of-fact about the way you talk about this, then you're welcome to your reasoning, however limited it may be. I'm not going to argue with or listen to someone who tries to belittle with the start of every single point.

Sorry. I didn't mean to belittle your points. That's definitely a problem I have when it comes to disagreeing with someone.
Just because my views of something in a video game are different from yours doesn't mean you deserve to be treated that way.

 

[Raijinken]

Update is live, check OP for changelist and the overall new list. Like I said, if you already used the work in progress changelist from earlier, all you have to do is update Bowser Jr. to be current. Thanks for everyone who contributed, and hopefully this project will help makes things way easier for TOs to run these wonderful customs.

Might want to update the thread title as well, and maybe color-code the new ones. Thanks for all the hard work, though. I'll run more of these by the friends of mine who have had the game long enough to be willing to learn customs, and bring more info back if we run into any consensus.

 

[LRodC]

The new changes look good. It took only a few minutes to update everything.

Just a thought - as someone who only uses Charizard for fun - should there be a 1333 set? Seems likely that someone (read: me) would want each of the good custom options simultaneously. Not sure which set I'd cut, though.

As a Falcon main, I completely support what you have. Falcon Dash Punch and standard Raptor Boost are always wanted, and Falcon Kicks are subject to opinion. Most Falcons say Falcon Strike is bad, but that added recovery is certainly nice. Missing out on stage spikes and such is a shame, though.

I think Falcon Strike sets should definitely be there along with regular Falcon Dive as some will prefer the Attack and others will prefer the extra recovery (I prefer the latter). It essentially comes down to user preference and I don't think there's one that's just objectively better than the other. I've had many times online where I would use Falcon Dive and just miss the ledge and wish I was packing Falcon Strike.

 

[Raijinken]

I think Falcon Strike sets should definitely be there along with regular Falcon Dive as some will prefer the Attack and others will prefer the extra recovery (I prefer the latter). It essentially comes down to user preference and I don't think there's one that's just objectively better than the other. I've had many times online where I would use Falcon Dive and just miss the ledge and wish I was packing Falcon Strike.

That comes up pretty often for me with other characters and customs. Especially for the recovery variant, a lot of it comes down to "Will I get more mileage out of that extra recovery than the move itself?"

For Falcon Dive, it's already a pretty hard read to land in any sort of kill scenario. Whether it's a hard enough read to make the recovery version better over all (or rather, better to enough people to warrant being in a set) is a far harder topic. Sure, nearly every character will have scenarios come up where you'd really wish you had the recovery variant, but if that specific need arises roughly equal to or less often than the need for a moderate-damage command grab, then unless a lot of people find it necessary (or preferred), it's hard to justify a set with it. I run into the same thought with Robin a lot. There are times I'd have loved a bit of extra horizontal (or vertical) recovery that I could have gotten from alternate versions of Elwind, but since the default is more reliable on the whole, I still run it the majority of the time.

Of course, eventually there'd theoretically be no need for sets 2222 and 3333 for any given character (bar characters in which those are preferred, namely Ike's 2222 preference), once enough experimentation has been done. A move and its related setups could possibly be popular enough to warrant one of those slots in the future without being worth taking 1-6 now.

 

[DarthLuigi36]

I can't say if I'm alone in this, but I basically use Falcon Dive as an actual attack once a match at the most, in cases where someone is shielding a lot on a platform above me, I can mix it in with Falcon's awesome air game.

Now, when I say once a match at most, that's what happens on purpose... I can't say how many times I've accidentally Falcon Dived (Dove?) into someone while I'm recovering. Their attempt to edgeguard turns into free damage for me, and very often a KO with a stage spike.

Falcon Strike still has a hitbox, but it certainly can't punish shields or cause stage spikes. I'd definitely say it's worth playing, but I think most players aren't warmed up to it - whether that's due to Strike itself, or the general cold shoulder to custom moves, is hard to say.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sorry. I didn't mean to belittle your points. That's definitely a problem I have when it comes to disagreeing with someone.
Just because my views of something in a video game are different from yours doesn't mean you deserve to be treated that way.

Can't like this enough. I'm really proud when the community proves its maturity in little moments like this. It's pretty uncommon to have an elevated dialogue, and it's so easy to take the best parts of the smash community for granted.

You guys rule.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I really like this. Is there anything on youtube or twitch that showcases this in action?

 

[GUIGUI]

Is this list News worthy, now? There has been several mods in this thread. What is the requirement to be Frontpage News material?

 

[steelguttey]

mii gunners should be as fast as possible. theyre a hit and run character

 

[GamerGuy09]

Nairo made a playlist that showcases every single Custom Move in a very neat matter.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

He even mentions the project, though he credits me for it. (Sorry AA, it seems to happen often.) So hey, we have player support here.

 

[Aninymouse]

Can't like this enough. I'm really proud when the community proves its maturity in little moments like this. It's pretty uncommon to have an elevated dialogue, and it's so easy to take the best parts of the smash community for granted.

You guys rule.

Smashboards is not one person. Thanks for saying that I rule, though.

Great job, AA. I like how this all turned out. Seems very doable. Some of the characters with little to no discussion might start to chime in more once this gets off the ground, I feel. No need to stress out over every detail until this has a few dry runs, so to speak.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

He even mentions the project, though he credits me for it. (Sorry AA, it seems to happen often.) So hey, we have player support here.

Hey, if custom moves are legal, I don't care if it's me, you, or Captain Falcon who gets credit for it. I am definitely better at putting stuff together than promoting it so I really appreciate what people like you do to help on that front.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

How exactly do we size up the mii fighters? Maybe there's a thread I missed somewhere about suggested Mii sizes or something. It might be a good idea to include more specific instructions about this in the original post.

or maybe I'm blind and just missed it... <_<

Edit: Yep. I am blind. Raijinken found it.

 

[Raijinken]

How exactly do we size up the mii fighters? Maybe there's a thread I missed somewhere about suggested Mii sizes or something. It might be a good idea to include more specific instructions about this in the original post.

or maybe I'm blind and just missed it... <_<

It's covered in the very early parts of the post, before the moves are listed.

"Mii Fighters have a size indicator. Small indicates the smallest possible Mii, wide indicates a Mii of minimum height but maximum width, and normal indicates a Mii of even parameters on both (the system Miis named Guest A-F are this type of Mii)."

Wide means shortest and fattest, and small means shortest and thinnest. I think those (and normal, which speaks for itself) are the only notable ones that actually come into play.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

3113Wide is listed twice for the mii gunner.

 

[Yikarur]

To Yoshis Specials:

Yoshi should have a 2111 option. The other 3 default specials are by far the best and lick is needed in the Rosalina MU.
The Egg Throw specials are useless, you should always go with the default one. I think no one would play the others so you can free a space by removing the 1131 one.
Default Egg Roll is the best because you cannot control the light egg when it takes off. Egg Roll is just our "you did a missclick" Move so Yoshi should always use the default one because it's the best when done by accident due to it's flexibility.
so I think 2111 and 3111 should be mandatory. The rest can be mixed-up by random sets people might want to play. Yoshis customs aren't that amazing overall sadly.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bad timing, but here's some recently developed thoughts:

Default Mario Cape might be best. It's faster, stalls in the air, and does more damage. All of this combines into a big cost to pay for wind. Thunder Cape is underrated but still not worth it.

Up-b 3 is way more viable on Dr. Mario than Mario. This is because the value of lower kill % is non-linearly greater on characters with low-percent combos. The gap between Dr. Mario's free combo damage and the % Up-b 3 can kill at is small. I think it's worth it on Doc, and usually not (narrowly) on Mario.


There are a few moves where none of the options have any real merit in either the neutral or punish stage-game, but one of the options has some niche value off-stage. I believe this is true with Bowser Jr. neutral-b 3 and Zelda side-b 3. They both seem HORRIBLE on the stage, and they are--but you were never going to use the other options anyway, let's be real.

But Bowser Jr. can hop off-stage and release his wind shot right below the ledge, and let the move's unique aerial bounce push him into the ledge. (Auto-grabs, no lag) Meanwhile, Zelda can place a delayed Din's in a recovery path (generously huge hitbox) to force an air-dodge, and jump out to punish it.

On a similar note, Zelda down-b 2's extra range may give it more recovery defense value than either alternative can promise on-stage.


But more on Bowser Jr. All 3 karts are fantastic, but I'm actually increasingly favoring the Grounding Dash (which I originally disliked) Frame 1 armor is just too good--and unlike Stubborn Headbutt or Volatile Breathing, you can actually do something useful after the combo escape. The attack can actually land in a variety of cases, and you always have the option of jumping out regardless. And if you do land it, you can combo it into default up-b to deal 41% total, with great KO power. If you combine it with a Giant Mechakoopa as bait, that's 56% total. Finally, it can be used high as a recovery aid, due to the speed.

Bowser Jr. up-b 2 is a good move--less distance, but has some super armor on startup; less KO power, but can spike--but not good enough. Also, it can't combo out of Grounding Dash.

The superior stage control of default Mechakoopas is negated by how easily they can be picked up. Giant ones are much less clever, but probably for the best.


I'm still unconvinced that Gravity Grenade is better on Sheik than the default. It seems better, but what purpose does it serve? When you would actively choose to use this move as Sheik? Contrast with the default, which is generally worse--but does function uniquely as a projectile counter.

The more I have experimented with Sheik's other customs, the more I have to admit that the defaults are better. These are REALLY good moves, but her defaults are even better. Also see: ZSS.


Palutena should still be 2312 in every matchup. The other down-b options are really respectable alternatives though.


I'm liking Little Mac's customs more and more. Neutral-b and down-b are interesting choices, but ultimately probably don't matter much.


Charizard Flamethrower is clearly dominant, I have fully repented of my Fire Fang ways. Dragon Rush is king, but Flare Blitz has 15% heavy armor and beats most projectiles. I want Rising Cyclone to be good, but it's just not reliable enough. Fly is too good to give up for Fly High; Fly High's super armor is also later, which is unforgivable. Rock Smash is just clearly the best down-b, but Rock Hurl has matchup utility. Sinking Skull is an awful move, just terrible. Rock Hurl has f1 armor, which is good for breaking out of ultra-low aerial combos--the kind Mario does out of d-throw, for example. (Rock Smash has f5 armor.)


DHD cans 1 and 2 are both soooo good... but thou shall have no cans before zigzag. Probably the highest potential of any single move in the game--it's basically a puppet you can respawn on demand.

I was a believer in Clay Smash, but it's too long range. DH doesn't need more range tools, he need ways to stuff approaches and set up grabs, which the default does well. Default also has synergy with dair (important move!) and zigzag. DHD up-b 1 vs. 3 is #whatever.

DHD down-b 2 is interesting but imo never worth it. The value of grab traps, especially combined with zigzag providing anti-air, is too good to give up. I change opinions of Giant Gunman frequently, and lean towards using the default in more and more cases. You don't need a million years of coverage--it'd usually be better defense if they just went ahead and shot the enemy. It's not like the default guys can't take a paralyzer or a few needles for you anyway?


I really like Lightning Falcon Kick.


I can't help but wonder if default Timber is worth it in any imaginable matchup. It's just so radically different, and the many unique benefits of default Timber are easy to overlook or devalue. The default axe is strong as most f-smashes, FRAME SIX, and can be used in the air.


After learning about lagless headers, I am 100% sure that Weighted Header is the dominant WFT side-b choice; probably in every matchup. Lagless Weighted Header, due to perfect ball article lifetime, is really incredible pressure.

I had previously underestimated how much extra height you get out of Jumbo Hoop if you mash B in the startup window. Makes the move even better.

Yeah, Deep Breathing should always be used... It's too good. I still like Volatile Breathing though, with its wacky f1 startup armor and crazy edgeguard antics, but can't really advocate it as a true option...

 

[Venks]

@ Thinkaman I'm not the most active player with Sheik, but I do enjoy Sheik's Gale up-special. I can see how most people would pass on it because it has no killing potential, but it also allows Sheik to go even deeper off stage and get gimps she wouldn't be able to get with the default special. I personally just find myself getting deep kills and recovering extremely safely far more often than I ever get kills from Vanish. Again I'm not a Sheik main so I'm sure she has good Vanish setups I don't know about.

I also rarely use Burst Grenade. I see it as a tool to occasionally get free grabs, but usually the threat of needles puts people into shield for me. I don't use Gravity Grenade much either, but it's guaranteed I'll go for it at least once for each of my opponents stocks. If I can land the Gravity Grenade it'll put my opponent in the perfect range for the top of Sheik's up smash. I feel this is pretty amazing as it allows her to get KOs around 90~100%. That's really good for a character like Sheik who normally doesn't get KOs until around 120~130%.

As far as needles go I almost always stick to default. They seem more effective for almost all matchups. But if I'm up against a Rosalina or a Villager with Pushy Lloid then I'll go for the Penetrating Needles so that I can continue to apply pressure through Luma and rockets.

I only use default Bouncing Fish. Don't see the situations where the other ones are useful.

So yeah I'm pretty happy with the current sets for Sheik. Though I doubt I'll be playing her anytime soon.

 

[Raijinken]

Just a note about Samus. Apex Screw Attack covers almost (if not) identical vertical distance compared to Screw Attack at the cost of some horizontal range and mid-move hitboxes. As horizontal recovery is almost always handled with bombs and the grapple beam, I'd always go with the Shinespark (since that's a cooler name) over Screw Attack for the sheer kill potential on a read, either on the ground or midair. It also seems to have a somewhat bigger hitbox, possibly making it harder to edgeguard in the event you don't sweetspot the ledge.

The beams seem to be the biggest matter of choice. As much as I want to like Power Bombs, their inability to detonate on contact is crippling, and their power isn't worth the delay. Missiles I could see going either way, but only because offstage missile shots are easier with missiles that travel somewhat fast. I'd thus recommend either 1232 or 2232 for virtually all scenarios. Both are high on the list, so I guess there's not much arguing to it, but I'd definitely say they're more widely worth using than the rest of the sets.

 

[DunnoBro]

Holy **** forget about balance, customs make the game fast and ridiculous as ****.

I never took a deep look at other characters customs, but the combos, punishes, and general reward factor gets a ridiculous buff.

Examples:

Spoiler

Ganon for example becomes a dirtbag with that wizard dropkick with low knockback that sets them up perfectly for upair/fair offstage and kills at like 50% if he's even a little in rage. And that long-rage hitting choke has such ridiculous horizontal knockback and if you ever aim it towards the ledge, it sets up for an edgeguard and also kicks fairly early. Like little mac can't even make it back if you hit him with it and he's over 60. That's how riduclous the horizontal knockback is. It also punishes rolls hard as hell.


Samus gets DHD level projectiles and her neutral and edgeguard game become ridiculous as ****. Both the delay missles and slow missles set up for ridiculous combos and frame traps, and against low aerial momentum characters seem almost impossible to recover against. That shinespark also seems to get more set-ups and is scary as hell.

Luigi's ice balls are essentially another downthrow that starts working at kill percents.

Mario's custom fireballs are both amazing. Fast is an amazing anti-aerial and anti-edgeguard. Big fireball is actually good when used with aerial momentum, and true combos into off-stage fair as well as frame trapping into tons of other stuff. Also the power UpB is ridiculous, essentially those situations where default marios go for a little bit of fun or aiming for extra damage, or janky oos stuff with upb1, are now kill situations where you die at like 60 after mario combod you there.

Wii fit trainer acquires a sickening neutral game with a lot of traps, zoning, and I feel like there's a lot of potential using the no knockback breathing while in rage to get kills.

I feel like this needs to be showcased more, what do you guys think another project showcasing the potential of customs? I have a capture card now and usable video editing abilities. I was thinking of trying to contact customs proponents and having them showcase their knowledge about a specific character with me.

Like you guys think diddy's dthrow > upair is bad? Many characters get set-ups for killing upbs or other true combo kill set-ups, and at way lower percents. And in general I don't see defensive options helped nearly as much as offensive ones. Generally better upbs, some super annoying projectiles, and that's it.

Essentially, after watching top players I have begun to feel like sm4sh is really fast until it becomes time to kill. Lots of low % combos, frame traps, and aggression... But once both players are in rage, unless it's a kill move or one of the very specific kill set-ups that most characters have few of so are easy to avoid, most interactions they could go for feel like brawl interactions where you get the hit, try to follow up, but can't due to all the space they got and now it gets reset to neutral and you gotta try again.

But customs deliver tons of kill set-ups, general reward for aggression, and punishment for being overly defensive.

And most pro players at Xanadu don't even know about them. Most players in general seem foreign to the applications, really. They seem to compartmentalize it very generally as speed, power, better recovery, or gimmicky as far as differences go and leave it at that. I feel like a video, or video series showcasing this **** could help people get hype and push more for it. It feels like the biggest hurdle is people don't know what they're missing to demand it.

Some top players like Boss do love customs though, and I fear for the community if he is ever allowed to use ice fireballs. Like once luigi's downthrow combos stop working, the iceball combos start.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Holy **** forget about balance, customs make the game fast and ridiculous as ****.

I never took a deep look at other characters customs, but the combos, punishes, and general reward factor gets a ridiculous buff.

Examples:

Spoiler

Ganon for example becomes a dirtbag with that wizard dropkick with low knockback that sets them up perfectly for upair/fair offstage and kills at like 50% if he's even a little in rage. And that long-rage hitting choke has such ridiculous horizontal knockback and if you ever aim it towards the ledge, it sets up for an edgeguard and also kicks fairly early. Like little mac can't even make it back if you hit him with it and he's over 80. That's how riduclous the horizontal knockback is. It also punishes rolls hard as hell.


Samus gets DHD level projectiles and her neutral and edgeguard game become ridiculous as ****. Both the delay missles and slow missles set up for ridiculous combos and frame traps, and against low aerial momentum characters seem almost impossible to recover against. That shinespark also seems to get more set-ups and is scary as hell.

Luigi's ice balls are essentially another downthrow that starts working at kill percents.

Mario's custom fireballs are both amazing. Fast is an amazing anti-aerial and anti-edgeguard. Big fireball is actually good when used with aerial momentum, and true combos into off-stage fair as well as frame trapping into tons of other stuff. Also the power UpB is ridiculous, essentially those situations where default marios go for a little bit of fun or aiming for extra damage, or janky oos stuff with upb1, are now kill situations where you die at like 60 after mario combod you there.

Wii fit trainer acquires a sickening neutral game with a lot of traps, zoning, and I feel like there's a lot of potential using the no knockback breathing while in rage to get kills.

I feel like this needs to be showcased more, what do you guys think another project showcasing the potential of customs? I have a capture card now and usable video editing abilities. I was thinking of trying to contact customs proponents and having them showcase their knowledge about a specific character with me.

Like you guys think diddy's dthrow > upair is bad? Many characters get set-ups for killing upbs or other true combo kill set-ups, and at way lower percents. And in general I don't see defensive options helped nearly as much as offensive ones. Generally better upbs, some super annoying projectiles, and that's it.

Essentially, after watching top players I have begun to feel like sm4sh is really fast until it becomes time to kill. Lots of low % combos, frame traps, and aggression... But once both players are in rage, unless it's a kill move or one of the very specific kill set-ups that most characters have few of so are easy to avoid, most interactions they could go for feel like brawl interactions where you get the hit, try to follow up, but can't due to all the space they got and now it gets reset to neutral and you gotta try again.

But customs deliver tons of kill set-ups, general reward for aggression, and punishment for being overly defensive.

And most pro players at Xanadu don't even know about them. Most players in general seem foreign to the applications, really. They seem to compartmentalize it very generally as speed, power, better recovery, or gimmicky as far as differences go and leave it at that. I feel like a video, or video series showcasing this **** could help people get hype and push more for it. It feels like the biggest hurdle is people don't know what they're missing to demand it.

Some top players like Boss do love customs though, and I fear for the community if he is ever allowed to use ice fireballs. Like once luigi's downthrow combos stop working, the iceball combos start.

If you're interested in recording things, I along with SmashCapps and the other guys running Hypest run weekly online singles with customs on. Check us out on the SmashBros subreddit if you're interested in recording some matches. :D

 

[Raijinken]

Holy **** forget about balance, customs make the game fast and ridiculous as ****.

I never took a deep look at other characters customs, but the combos, punishes, and general reward factor gets a ridiculous buff.

Examples:

Spoiler

Ganon for example becomes a dirtbag with that wizard dropkick with low knockback that sets them up perfectly for upair/fair offstage and kills at like 50% if he's even a little in rage. And that long-rage hitting choke has such ridiculous horizontal knockback and if you ever aim it towards the ledge, it sets up for an edgeguard and also kicks fairly early. Like little mac can't even make it back if you hit him with it and he's over 80. That's how riduclous the horizontal knockback is. It also punishes rolls hard as hell.


Samus gets DHD level projectiles and her neutral and edgeguard game become ridiculous as ****. Both the delay missles and slow missles set up for ridiculous combos and frame traps, and against low aerial momentum characters seem almost impossible to recover against. That shinespark also seems to get more set-ups and is scary as hell.

Luigi's ice balls are essentially another downthrow that starts working at kill percents.

Mario's custom fireballs are both amazing. Fast is an amazing anti-aerial and anti-edgeguard. Big fireball is actually good when used with aerial momentum, and true combos into off-stage fair as well as frame trapping into tons of other stuff. Also the power UpB is ridiculous, essentially those situations where default marios go for a little bit of fun or aiming for extra damage, or janky oos stuff with upb1, are now kill situations where you die at like 60 after mario combod you there.

Wii fit trainer acquires a sickening neutral game with a lot of traps, zoning, and I feel like there's a lot of potential using the no knockback breathing while in rage to get kills.

I feel like this needs to be showcased more, what do you guys think another project showcasing the potential of customs? I have a capture card now and usable video editing abilities. I was thinking of trying to contact customs proponents and having them showcase their knowledge about a specific character with me.

Like you guys think diddy's dthrow > upair is bad? Many characters get set-ups for killing upbs or other true combo kill set-ups, and at way lower percents. And in general I don't see defensive options helped nearly as much as offensive ones. Generally better upbs, some super annoying projectiles, and that's it.

Essentially, after watching top players I have begun to feel like sm4sh is really fast until it becomes time to kill. Lots of low % combos, frame traps, and aggression... But once both players are in rage, unless it's a kill move or one of the very specific kill set-ups that most characters have few of so are easy to avoid, most interactions they could go for feel like brawl interactions where you get the hit, try to follow up, but can't due to all the space they got and now it gets reset to neutral and you gotta try again.

But customs deliver tons of kill set-ups, general reward for aggression, and punishment for being overly defensive.

And most pro players at Xanadu don't even know about them. Most players in general seem foreign to the applications, really. They seem to compartmentalize it very generally as speed, power, better recovery, or gimmicky as far as differences go and leave it at that. I feel like a video, or video series showcasing this **** could help people get hype and push more for it. It feels like the biggest hurdle is people don't know what they're missing to demand it.

Some top players like Boss do love customs though, and I fear for the community if he is ever allowed to use ice fireballs. Like once luigi's downthrow combos stop working, the iceball combos start.

Since Rage works both ways, the thought of a miss gets very daunting when both players are over 100. Safety procedures kick into overdrive since one mistake WILL lose your stock.

But yea, I really like the idea of showcasing the power of custom moves. I'm probably not good enough to really show off the options unless someone plans 'em out step by step for me, unfortunately, but I'd love to help if possible.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll try to record some this week.

 

[DunnoBro]

Since Rage works both ways, the thought of a miss gets very daunting when both players are over 100. Safety procedures kick into overdrive since one mistake WILL lose your stock.

Of course that is a variable, but I believe the main one is that many combos stop working at higher percents, so there's a lot fewer routes worth pursuing so things generally get kind of stale.

 

[Thinkaman]

What characters/moves do you guys want videos of the most?

I can't play Ike or Samus well, so my short list would be Palutena, Ganondorf, WFT, and DHD. Charizard and Robin are easy ones, plus Little Mac and Bowser Jr. in applicable matchups.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Basically I think the "low tiers" would be the best candidates for an initial run, as far as we can agree on who's "low tier" in the first place. If we can point to a video as proof of customs helping characters compete with the high tiers, then they may get more support in general.

That said I think any character with a hype custom-powered setup would be worth considering.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea the low tiers generally, unless something really ridiculous is out there.

Palutena, Ganon, and WFT are great candidates. I'd love to see WFT's steady breathing trucking through a bunch of different upbs and recoveries. I'm pretty sure it's the best breathing special and the main use of it is to enable YOLO edgeguards since any trade offstage will be in your favor since there's no grabs so she's pretty much unstoppabe out there.

Imagine giving falcon's dair super armor. That's essentially what she has for edgeguards.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yea the low tiers generally, unless something really ridiculous is out there.

Rosalina can ftilt > Luma Warp > fsmash near FD's edge to kill Mario at 50% in training mode. I'm almost certain you can DI away from the Luma Warp, but fsmash is a proper combo after that.

And that's basically the only big ticket custom setup I know.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yea the low tiers generally, unless something really ridiculous is out there.

Palutena, Ganon, and WFT are great candidates. I'd love to see WFT's steady breathing trucking through a bunch of different upbs and recoveries. I'm pretty sure it's the best breathing special and the main use of it is to enable YOLO edgeguards since any trade offstage will be in your favor since there's no grabs so she's pretty much unstoppabe out there.

Imagine giving falcon's dair super armor. That's essentially what she has for edgeguards.

I actually really prefer Deep Breathing, but think both the others are really great alternative playstyles.

Deep Breathing is just too insane. I made a post about it yesterday in competitive impressions.

Edit: Also, Steady Breathing does not put Super Armor on any of your actions. Everything can still be interrupted, you just take no knockback.

Rosalina can ftilt > Luma Warp > fsmash near FD's edge to kill Mario at 50% in training mode. I'm almost certain you can DI away from the Luma Warp, but fsmash is a proper combo after that.

And that's basically the only big ticket custom setup I know.

Heh. Though for every big Luma Warp combo, we can show a half dozen anti-Luma moves...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Heh. Though for every big Luma Warp combo, we can show a half dozen anti-Luma moves...

Actually, there's an idea. In addition to flashy combos and stuff, maybe a few things showing off how customs can work around certain gimmicks (Luma, bananas, etc.) wouldn't go amiss?

 

[DunnoBro]

I think targeting general competitive use would be best, though something like that could be a nice closer.

 

[Asdioh]

fast.

I like this post. We as a community should really start doing more custom move tournaments, and a cool bonus to that is that increased speed/ease of KOing could easily justify using 3 stocks instead of 2 :D?

We definitely need more coverage to get people interested though. I wish I had a capture card so I could do this stuff myself. I'm at least trying to get a fellow Kirby player to help me record stuff for our character.

Heck, if we get hype enough stuff maybe we can make the front page of smashboards, they put some random garbage on there pretty often so if we make something quality, surely we can get it up there.


Personally I only have 11 custom moves left to unlock, and I'm disgusted by the fact that I can easily spend a half hour grinding to get 0, but aside from that...

 

[Raijinken]

I like this post. We as a community should really start doing more custom move tournaments, and a cool bonus to that is that increased speed/ease of KOing could easily justify using 3 stocks instead of 2 :D?

We definitely need more coverage to get people interested though. I wish I had a capture card so I could do this stuff myself. I'm at least trying to get a fellow Kirby player to help me record stuff for our character.

Heck, if we get hype enough stuff maybe we can make the front page of smashboards, they put some random garbage on there pretty often so if we make something quality, surely we can get it up there.

The issue is that with Apex right around the corner, the vast majority of tournaments will simply copy their ruleset due to the whole "practice" mentality that comes with rulesets and familiarity. Not that their way is the right way, but it's the most emulated way.

As for videos, I think Palutena (and Miis) are the most important cases to show off, as their entire special arsenal is changed (not tweaked) by custom move options. Other runners up would be the characters that use the most custom moves (i.e. Ike's preferred doesn't include a single default, or Ganondorf's vastly improved recovery), or that can demonstrate super-niche moves becoming more generally usable (Chain Judge, for instance, or Jumping Inhale. Things that are essentially straight upgrades to characters who need it). Lastly, I'd show the matchup-specific picks, such as piercing projectiles against Rosalina, Guardian Luma against characters with no projectiles, etc.

Those sorts of exhibits probably cover the majority of non-logistical reasons some players oppose custom moves. Palutena and Miis demonstrate that (especially Palutena) their viability and kit changes in significant and positive ways with access to alternate moves (like taking Explosive Flare over Autoreticule). Ike and Ganondorf-type displays perform a similar role, but replace entirely different moves with moves of almost entirely different function (such as Wizard's Dropkick and Aether Drive making up for recovery weaknesses). Showing the niche benefits of even a single swap for certain characters (especially a lot of the higher-tier characters) shows that even those characters will benefit from the implementation of customs (though not in any apparently game-breaking ways).

Once my friends each get past the "The game's so new I have no clue what anything does any more" phase, most of them have been easy to convince of the use of customs in enhancing balance once I got them to try some out.

 

[MrEh]

1311
1211
3311
3211
2311
2211

These should be the only sets that Bowser runs. Community has finally hit the consensus that no one will ever use custom DownB or UpBs ever. There is no practical reason for doing so, since the default ones are superior in nearly every scenario.

Fire Roar sets are there for those who don't like using Fire that much, and don't mind the crippling cooldown. I'm of the belief that Fire Roar is terrible and is never the right choice, but a handful of the Bowser community seems to like it.

Fireball sets are there for Dedede and nothing else. It's really just filler, since there are no other conceivable sets that someone would run.

Palutena should still be 2312 in every matchup. The other down-b options are really respectable alternatives though.

I go 2313. Celestial Fireworks master race.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Since I'm currently already dsicussing this elsewhere, I'd thought I'd bring it here.

As of right now Mii Brawler's custom sets are
1122
1132

2122 and 2132 need to be added to this list as Ultimate Uppercut has proven itself to be just as useful if not more useful than Shotput. It's charge up time is relatively fast, it has super-armor and it is a kill move. VERY reliable for Mii Brawler who struggles to land the kill after he loses his D-throw into Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch combos. Shotput is still useful for some matchups, but it isn't by any means the only move he should be restricted to anymore.

 

[Treveen]

i think one of the biggest problems would be tournament rules consistency. Players that normally play in tournaments with no custom moves would be discouraged to play in tournaments that allow them. They would opt out of the tournament or fight at a disadvantage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's the whole point of these: Create a "standard" (or more precisely, a reference) to practice its behavior.

 

[Raijinken]

i think one of the biggest problems would be tournament rules consistency. Players that normally play in tournaments with no custom moves would be discouraged to play in tournaments that allow them. They would opt out of the tournament or fight at a disadvantage.

That's why they need to catch on as a standard. It takes very little effort for a player to get the customs for their main (a small handful of Trophy Rush or Classic runs on either system), and there's little value to the "can't practice against others" argument since it's effectively impossible to practice against any character at a proper level outside of the tournament setting.

 

[Venks]

If we have an online tournament all I need is a date and a time. I'd definitely be repping Little Mac and Donkey Kong as those are the two characters I have the most experience with when it comes to custom moves.

If we can record the matches, I personally can't record anything myself, we can definitely show off how interesting custom moves are. If we get some hype sets going I'm sure they'd do well on r/smashbros as well and generate some discussion.