Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[EmblemCrossing]

Reasoning behind the Marth/Lucina change? I really liked the 3113 set after fooling around with it. Dashing Assault and Iai Counter are two of my favorite customs, so I'm curious as to why it changed. (I'll probably just use 3111, for convenience)

 

[hey_there]

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Spinphony does hitstun, I believe, which gives people back their double jump in an edgeguard situation.

Gives people back their Up-B, you mean. It still flips control and current momentum for 30 frames, as well, so someone like Falcon, Luigi, or Ness is screwed.

 

[Protom]

Oh goody, and just in time for me to have finished unlocking all customs. (Seriously, I got the last ones yesterday.)

Shame about Palutena, but that's what the blank slots are for I guess.

I noticed none of Fox's sets use the Amplifying Reflector (Down 3). Am I missing something about it or Big Reflector (Down 2) that makes the latter preferable? I ask because the equivalents for Pit and Falco are used.

Spinphony does hitstun, I believe, which gives people back their double jump in an edgeguard situation.

Foxs amplifying customs downside is much worse than pit, dark pit and falcos downside. The downside of not doing damage and no stalling midair arent too bad, but foxs amplifying reflector has alot of startup lag, making it harder to pull off, and only the better option if u can make reads very well or are against someone with slower projectiles.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Gives people back their Up-B, you mean. It still flips control and current momentum for 30 frames, as well, so someone like Falcon, Luigi, or Ness is screwed.

Brain fart, you're right.

 

[warriorman222]

Foxs amplifying customs downside is much worse than pit, dark pit and falcos downside. The downside of not doing damage and no stalling midair arent too bad, but foxs amplifying reflector has alot of startup lag, making it harder to pull off, and only the better option if u can make reads very well or are against someone with slower projectiles.

And those who can reflect projectiles well, or predict them earlier are going to like that custom.

 

[Protom]

And those who can reflect projectiles well, or predict them earlier are going to like that custom.

They can, but most of the fox community prefers down 2, and sometimes 1. Those few who like amplifying will have to use slots 9 and 10, unless maybe a large influx of down 3 users starts appearing at tourneys and want standarized down 3 sets..

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've been playing a LOT of Wario against good players in recent times and it has caused me to change some ideas on what sets would be most useful for competitive play.

Wario doesn't really need or want the extra HP of the Burying Bike (Forward-B3) in realistic situations. The 20 HP that the regular Bike provides is more than enough to get a follow-up if you hit someone with it, the extra ground and air speed makes regular Bike much harder to predict/punish, it gets you bike parts to eat with a throw downward and a F-Air (pretty quickly, really) and without the Wario momentum glitch (Wectoring, or whatever you want to call it), as well as Wario play getting more and more involved offstage as people improve their predictions, the extra recovery distance/height/flexibility is pretty necessary. Forward-B3 won't net you any significant follow-ups and has too many weaknesses against strong characters to justify its use.

Widescrew (Up-B2)'s significant advantage in Wario's repetoire is giving him another solid, realistic KO tool. You may be able to catch people near the edge with its large and lingering hitboxes, and it KOs at about 100% in that situation; pretty much the same power as Up-B1 but at a much better angle (33-degree is nice). If you use your Bike from the bottom blast zone, angle it upward, and use Widescrew straight up, you'll still reach the edge. If you're hit sideways your Bike at mid percents or higher, you're pretty much dead, but if not, it's still enough to get you back after even the deepest edgeguarding. Depending on how hard it becomes to intercept Wario's Bike recovery, this might eventually become ideal, but right now I'd give it niche potential for the offensive player. Worth a single set, preferably with the regular Bike (1121, most likely).

As it turns out, Rose-Scented Waft might actually be the future; at least, all three Wafts probably have their own real place in tournament play, with Rose-Scented Waft looking to largely be a better Turbo Waft. Down-B2 also charges at the increased speed of Down-B3: half Waft at 30 seconds, full at 60. Continuing to compare it to Turbo Waft, it deals slightly more damage (ignoring the flower, which actually makes it deal even more damage than regular Waft) in exchange for losing some knockback (on-stage Rose Waft doesn't KO until ~140%)...but the hitbox is absolutely, positively bonkers:

Start-up shown where Wario stops, then hitbox from the same position a couple frames later:

Spoiler

As a deep edgeguarding move, it still has enough knockback to gimp and KO, it hits well around and below you (and, consequently, the ledge), and it still has the same super armor frames as Down-B1.

The main advantage Turbo Waft has over the rest is a faster start-up than the other two (Frame 4 half Waft compared to Frame 5; Frame 6 full Waft compared to Frame 9) and earlier super armor on full Waft (Frame 3 compared to Frame 5), so it punishes things a little more easily and is less prone to being stopped preemptively. That said, Waft tends to be a bit of an opportunistic move used on people who aren't in good positions to begin with, so the advantage doesn't mean much, IMO, especially compared to the ridiculous range of Rose-Scented Waft. I would say to replace all instances of Turbo Waft with Rose-Scented Waft for now, making the first set 1112.

The fast Bike has its place as a dedicated camping tool, allowing you to circle camp for days on some stages/against some characters. With the intention of running away, I would say that set should also have Rose-Scented Waft to make it even more infuriating to move toward, making the second set 1212.

Burying Bike on the third set is acceptable by virtue of being a useful Doubles tool; massive damage from throwing the bike and grounding the opponent are good. Still would say Rose-Scented Waft over Turbo Waft as it is, making the third set 1312.

Suction Bite has niche uses that warrant its own set; 2111 is probably acceptable unless Rose-Scented Waft really does become the future.

Without the momentum glitch Burying Bike has become obsolete for the most part, leaving two other slots. I'd say to use 1121 and 1122 as people become acquainted with the offensive possibilities of Up-B2, but maybe we should wait for that to happen before assigning them slots? I'd use them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Reasoning behind the Marth/Lucina change? I really liked the 3113 set after fooling around with it. Dashing Assault and Iai Counter are two of my favorite customs, so I'm curious as to why it changed. (I'll probably just use 3111, for convenience)

I picked one of the sets totally arbitrarily on Marth/Lucina to drop for 1121 and greatly struggled with that choice; if I got that wrong, please do let me know before I finalize. 3113 was just my total guess for which iteration of 3s was going to be least popular on the duo. Up-2 on them is pretty niche, but it seems clear to me the niche is *just* big enough that it should be quickly available without having to take the generally awful other 2 options on them (2222 may be the worst possible Marth/Lucina build...).

---

Does really no one here play Bowser Jr.? I mean, I suppose if no one even cares what his movesets are, then no one will complain if they're bad, but I kinda have a strong sense they're bad right now and don't really like that...

---

Will go through and make any other necessary tweaks/explain stuff later, have plans but wanted to poke in.

 

[warriorman222]

They can, but most of the fox community prefers down 2, and sometimes 1. Those few who like amplifying will have to use slots 9 and 10, unless maybe a large influx of down 3 users starts appearing at tourneys and want standarized down 3 sets..

This. I still prefer amplifying, because i like reflecting projectiles with a higher degree of power and speed (Bigger reflector for 0.7*? I know the other benefits but no.)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I did some preliminary testing on Bowser Jr. a while back.

Neutral-B is garbage in Singles no matter how you slice it; they all have limited use in Doubles, for all that's worth, but it's pretty negligible.

I would say that Forward-B2 is far and away the best by virtue of its ridiculous skid hitbox/animation/recovery (seriously, you could probably camp someone to time with this in the air). Forward-B1 is tried-and-true with a higher car jump than Forward-B2, so it merits some use. Forward-B3's start-up is higher and burying someone generally isn't as useful as skidding like an idiot with Forward-B2, so I'd pass on that one.

With the Forward-B recovery already doing wonders for him distance-wise, Up-B2 seems superior to me over the others due to a less predictable and less punishable fall animation. It's easier to edge-cancel without being seen a mile away, too. Some people would probably like Up-B1 for the extra distance/what they're used to, but I'd say it doesn't really have redeeming qualities in the grand scheme of things. Up-B3 has the neat advantage of not making you lose your car if you're hit on the way up, so that's worth talking about, and with significant practice you can still edge-cancel on the way down, so it would probably become the premier option after a lot of practice...

Down-B3 is a crazy move that is far and away his best (and one of the best customs, period). If you give him any space at all, he'll have a strong, fast, safe projectile he can make himself immune to, which is like a much better Snake grenade he doesn't take damage from. This forces people to come to you, which should be a big deal.

Down-B1 is good for space control due to the proximity hitbox and longer explosion timer, so it has its place in matchups where people like to stay on the ground, but most matchups would rather have the ridiculous Down-B3, I imagine. Down-B2 doesn't really have a place between the other two, IMO.

 

[EmblemCrossing]

I picked one of the sets totally arbitrarily on Marth/Lucina to drop for 1121 and greatly struggled with that choice; if I got that wrong, please do let me know before I finalize. 3113 was just my total guess for which iteration of 3s was going to be least popular on the duo. Up-2 on them is pretty niche, but it seems clear to me the niche is *just* big enough that it should be quickly available without having to take the generally awful other 2 options on them (2222 may be the worst possible Marth/Lucina build...).

As a Lucina main, I don't think I'd ever use Up-2. Almost always I'd rather go for the range from Up-3, or default. 3113 is my personal favorite, with Dashing Assault being a good movement option, as well as the Iai Counter which is as if not more useful than default counter. I've gotten plenty of surprise KOs with Iai by staying near the edge, and an opponent comes close and I knock them behind. (Especially Little Mac)

2222 is pretty mediocre as a set, I'm not really a fan of any of the 2s.

 

[Kofu]

@ TheReflexWonder , Bowser Jr's Down-B 2 is kind of comparable to a Gyro you don't have to charge but also can't pick up and use later. You lose the flexibility that the ability to grab the Mechakoopa offers but gain a great way to harass the opponent from across the stage. I've personally liked it when I've used it. Not something to pick in every matchup but still useful. Don't discount it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I noticed that Marth/Lucina get a ludicrous amount of horizontal drift ability after the apex of Crescent Slash. You can use it at the side of the stage and drift back for a ledgegrab, it's that silly. Fthrow into Cresent Slash is a combo up to around 50%, and non-tipper dtilt into Cresent Slash is a combo from 70% to around 130%. (Vs. Mario in training mode, so no DI.) The thing is, I don't use Marth/Lucina so I have no idea how valuable these followups are.

Bowser Jr. is not a character I have any real experience with beyond using him in Classic and All Star. However, I believe Piercing Cannonball and Impatient Mechakoopa may be worth considering for an anti-Rosalina set. Piercing Cannonball is fairly self-explanatory: it goes right through Luma. On top of that, it's much faster than the normal cannonball and thus is harder to GPull on reaction. Impatient Mechakoopa is likewise faster than the other options, but Rosalina is also tall enough that unlike, say, Mario, the mechakoopa won't ever arc over her head. (Well, it can, but she has to duck. It can whiff on Mario standing still.) Even if she does GPull it, the explosion still hurts her. She can pick it up, but she has less than a second to chuck it away before it literally blows up in her face. The only real danger is that if she anticipates the move and uses GPull next to Junior, it will explode on him the moment it spawns, but I can't imagine he would ever use it in close range anyway. Same caveat, I'm not a Bowser Jr. main so this is largely theorycraft. Take as you will.

 

[Lavani]

Fthrow into Cresent Slash is a combo up to around 50%, and non-tipper dtilt into Cresent Slash is a combo from 70% to around 130%. (Vs. Mario in training mode, so no DI.)

Worth noting that the followup works for much longer on characters taller than Mario. Fthrow>Crescent works up to 90% on Dark Pit, and kills from the sides of FD starting from around 75%.

 

[EmblemCrossing]

Hm. After testing a bit with Crescent, it seems to be interesting. I find it hard to get it to hit consistently, and I still think I prefer the other two recovery wise. I'd have to fool around with it a bit more.

@ Lavani This is actually a really good follow through. If you manage to Crescent right after the throw, it's pretty solid. Curious to see if it can be DI'd out of easily though.

 

[Raijinken]

I dabble in Bowser Jr, as does a friend of mine, and we both lean towards Quick Shot since it's a faster projectile, which gives it some niche edgeguarding potential. Big Mechakoopa is my preferred due to its huge damage, while my friend prefers default for its proximity detonation. Skidding Kart and Meteor Ejection are preferred for both of us.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll post some thoughts super late tonight.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hm. After testing a bit with Crescent, it seems to be interesting. I find it hard to get it to hit consistently, and I still think I prefer the other two recovery wise. I'd have to fool around with it a bit more.

@ Lavani This is actually a really good follow through. If you manage to Crescent right after the throw, it's pretty solid. Curious to see if it can be DI'd out of easily though.

You can probably DI it, but I don't trust my ability to test that on my own. Training mode counts it as a proper combo for what it's worth.

 

[Lavani]

I would say that Forward-B2 is far and away the best by virtue of its ridiculous skid hitbox/animation/recovery (seriously, you could probably camp someone to time with this in the air). Forward-B1 is tried-and-true with a higher car jump than Forward-B2, so it merits some use.

I actually feel sideB 1 is generally the better choice, mostly due to the knockback angle and thus combo potential. sideB>dair>utilt true combos for ~24% on most characters at low percents, and sets up for 1~2 uairs for another potential 10-20%. sideB>fair/uair works at middle percents. Most significantly, sideB>upB>Hammer true combos in the 70-110% range, usually leading to a kill.

sideB 2 gimmicks are very real though, I would consider it in certain matchups for recovery alone.

 

[Thinkaman]

Evolved thoughts on custom moves:



Fireball is actually probably best, though Fast Fireball clearly has uses.

Gust Cape is non-trivially slower (easy to overlook) but probably always worth taking. Electric Cape is not a bad move.

There is no sane reason to take the non-hitting up-b 2. Anyone suggesting it is entirely out of touch with high-level Mario play. Up-b 3 is a trade-off due to how slow it is. Frame 3 combo-escape/finisher Up-b is super pivotal to Mario.

No opinion on FLUDD.



I'm increasingly positive on all of his defaults, though side-b 3 is nice. I guess.



I am much more positive on default side-b now, but 2 is also quite good. (Matchup-specific case)

Up-b 2 has super armor on startup and is faster, but I tend to still think default is generally better? Not sure.

Default and Giant Mechkoopas are both good.



The side-bs are cute options, but not a big deal.

Up-b 3 remains laughably amazing. Otherwise, not much matters.



Yeah, all his customs are awful. I *might* use down-b 3 in some matchups, but what do I know.



Little Mac has to take neutral-b 2 in every set, period. The KO punch armor buff alone requires it, and it's better than 3.

Little Mac side-b 3 remains a crucial option in certain matchups, I feel. Same with Dash Counter.

However, Little Mac absolutely must use default up-b in every matchup on every stage, at least in 1v1s. It's too critical to give up--it's the ONLY tool he has for the purpose it serves.



Default Nayru's Love really is dominant and must be used in every set. The exploding one isn't worth it. If you listened to my past self defending this, don't listen--that guy is an idiot.

I am actually increasingly partial to side-b 3 though. It's useful in some edge-guard situations--and you aren't getting anything out of any Din's in neutral anyway.

I think up-b 3 is the coolest move in the game and will always want to use it. However, the move is still bad in a dozen different ways, and I don't main Zelda. I will remain adamantly in vocal support of it, while suggesting it not be used on any set.

Phantom 3 is increasingly dubious in practice. I find the others much more useful. When I play 3333 to use up-b 3, I find myself groaning at my dead-b proving to be dead weight in any situation.



Needles versus Piercing Needles (aka crazy shield damage needles) is a tough decision, actually. But Paralyzing Needle is truly awful, unless I'm missing something definitive and big.

Grenade 2 is not dominant over default, though it's probably better. The default functions as a linear anti-projectile counter, and beats dash grab in certain situations. Grenade 2 does neither. 3 seems irrelevant at a glance.

Default up-b is just clearly superior for the purposes it serves in high-level Sheik gameplay.

Jellyfish is a bad move. Pisces is cute, but probably not worth it; Bouncing Fish is just too good.



Warlock Thrust might be good, but personally I don't really like it. Plus, tbqh, who cares...?

I still cannot get the appeal of Dark Vault, but whatever.

Using exclusively Wizard's Dropkick has made me more aware of its limitations and costs. While I will probably continue to do so, I increasingly respect others not wanting it in some situations.



Honestly, all of her defaults are probably best, except maybe side-b 3.

Both down-b options are actually pretty good, but the default is just way, way too good to give up.

Default up-b 1 is a stupid move that is stupid good. Plz nerf.



I stand by what we've got.



Palutena tier list!

The One True Set tier:

2312

I Guess The Other Down-Bs Are Okay Options tier:

2311
2313

Maybe You Like Auto-Reticule, That's Alright I Guess tier:

1311
1312
1313

Fine, Don't Warp Cancel, Use Jump Glide Or Rocket Jump, WHATEVER tier:

132X
133X
232X
233X

Trash Tier:

3XXX
X1XX
X2XX



Existing thoughts seem accurate. But default Shield Breaker and Counter really are great moves.



I think a set with default Counter and other "good moves" is appropriate.



Thunder+ still crucial. Speed Thunder still key in worst matchups.

Default Nosferatu better in practice than I expected, but we'll see if that continues to hold true. Distant Nosferatu is neat in teams. Goetia still seems awful, especially against informed opponents. Too slow.



So uh, Zigzag Can is beyond dominant. Like, it's one of the best moves in the game and I have no idea how this character is viable without it. It's like playing Rosalina without Luma. I always have a can out, full-stop, covering me from getting grabbed.

Default side-b is surely best, but side-b 3 has interesting mechanics. Namely, the breaking of the disc is what does the bulk of damage with the default--for side-b 3, it's the shots themselves. Not sure if this is exploitable--probably not.

Up-b 3 is overrated but I'd probably still use it in most matchups. Like, the default really is pretty poor, but 3 has better mixups with his off-stage options despite the fixed nature.

I am prepared to endorse all 3 Gunman. (Erm, 15?) I'm curious to see what matchups they are best suited for.



My experience is trivial here, but I did like using up-b 3.



What we have seems dead on. Defaults are solid, but neutral-2 and down-2 are interesting and viable options. Side-3 is a strict but trivial upgrade.



Man, I don't even know where to begin.

Flamethrower is probably fine. It has proven its value as best in slot imo.

Dragon Rush, yes, is best. Flare Blitz, yes, might be situationally worth using, but I'd use 1111 in that case.

I dislike Fly High because I despise forfeiting OoS options. Rising Cyclone, while sometimes unreliable, does absurd enough levels of knockback as an anti-air move to be worth considering. Like, you just can't ignore a move that legitimately kills off of air dodge reads at 50%. This move needs more investigation.

I have never understood giving up Rock Smash for Sinking Skull. The proposition seems asinine to me. Rock Hurl is weaker, but a bit better anti-air and absurdly armored. Absolutely worth incorporating.

My suggestions:

1311
1313
1321
1331
1313
1323



First, I tested Rollout 3 as a Shield Punish. Full-charged f-smash or Rest seems superior or comparable in most situations.

Second, Rollout 1 has legitimate recovery utility in some matchups, which 3 does not.

Third, Rollout 1 is (and has always been) an okay trap for a full hop when there are no platforms.

Pound 2 and 3 are much slower and do far, far less shield damage. Their respective advantages are appreciated, but default is going to be usually best.

I appreciate the utility Reflex posted about regarding Spinphony. Sweet, ship it.

Rest is best, but Leaping Rest isn't a bad move. I can see some people liking it. Wakie-Wakie is slower than Ganon u-tilt.



Ness's defaults really are best. (Down-b is #whatever)



I still don't understand Pushy Lloid. Otherwise what we've got is great. (I do think default Timber is so radically different--and a great move--that it is worth having around as an option.)



I'm finding Sweeping Sun Salutation pretty meh. Also, I'm preferring 2 way more than the default.

Volatile Breathing has super armor on startup inhale, which is fun.

Huge Header is still bad.

I suggest:

1121
2121
2122
2321
2322
3322



Not gonna lie, I strictly prefer defaults on Mega Man. Sometimes I'd consider 1112.

 

[Raijinken]

Not gonna lie, I strictly prefer defaults on Mega Man. Sometimes I'd consider 1112.

I prefer the Skull Barrier strictly against opponents with slow/predictable but reflect-worthy projectiles (Samus, Links, Killager). Less relevant at higher level play than at my friends' level, I'm sure, but then again, no matter its gimp potential or ability to add single digits of damage to a grab, I'm of the opinion that the Leaf Shield is very nearly as bad in Smash as it is in Megaman 2.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Some Mac thoughts--

For all it's worth, Electric Neutral-B covers a lot of space at once with minimal charge; I wonder if it could be used to trap landings easily on no-plat stages, and it has more realistic recovery utility even without the armor. Regular Neutral-B dealing 14% and solid knockback to people using rapid Jabs has decent utility. Fire Neutral-B deals negligible knockback and damage in the same situations as Regular Neutral-B, and its "recovery utility" only applies on a full charge, which will mean absolutely nothing as long as he can't grab the ledge during the animation. It's likely they all have their own incredibly situational uses, with the super armor on the customs obviously meaning a lot.

The more I mess with Grounding Forward-B, the more I like it. If you catch a Ledge Jump or an offstage opponent trying to edgeguard you at anything other than very low percents with it, you likely kill the opponent. The aerial Forward-B1 distance nerf seems to make Grounding Forward-B slightly better for recovery instead of slightly worse, Dash Attack adequately covers a lot of the situations that regular Forward-B would be useful, and it's nice to have another tool to potentially threaten air/platform campers due to the extra distance traveled/covered. If you manage to bury someone, Mac has good options for damage afterward; D-Tilt racks it up quickly, and Up-B1 un-buries them while still getting all the hits/knockback on the final hit, meaning he has a reliable KO move on a buried opponent, which is otherwise uncommon without a hard read. Armored Forward-B still seems like garbage, though--Forward-B2 deserves some real consideration, however.

I imagine that there are matchups where the extra recovery from Up-B2 is more useful than the combo/KO potential of Up-B1, even if they are rare. Matchups where you have little trouble trapping landings and bullying people on the ground are certainly there, as well as matchups where high horizontal aerial mobility and base knockback moves screw Mac over on any Up-B whiff. The sharp angle and increased hitlag on Up-B2 can cause weak stage spikes at times. It has poor synergy with Compact Counter but allows you to use your superior ground game more often by virtue of staying alive longer; I'd say it merits use on at least one set. Unfortunately, Rising Smash seems to be complete garbage as long as the start-up is as terrible as it is; it's not even worth it in Doubles; Up-B3 appears worthless.

All of his Counters have situational uses that are fairly obvious, but I think I prefer Compact Counter these days. Mac generally loses to love taps and grabs that get him in the air, so you're rarely gonna find situations to Counter big moves, especially in high-level play, and the slight start-up on top of significant endlag means that other counters are likely to get shielded or avoided -> punished. Countering with the other customs offstage can still get you killed even if you're successful due to the height loss during the swing, too. The low endlag lets you use it to avoid many of the things you just want the invincibility against without leaving yourself open. It floats them just enough to easily get the Up-B follow-up after a hit, making it a reliable combo and KO set-up at high percents. I'm pretty sure Down-B2 will become the Counter of choice as the metagame progresses.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As for Rollout, Jigglypuff should almost never use Neutral-B1 to recover by virtue of her already-great recovery and the fact that opponents can edgeguard with their faces, since you die if you hit someone at or before the ledge.

Neutral-B3 ignores shields, and all versions of Rollout have a 7% hitbox when Jigglypuff touches the ground from the air while doing it even when completely uncharged, so Neutral-B3 technically gives her a weak unblockable attack, slightly discouraging opponents from just holding Shield at mid percents (as it's punishable on hit before ~50%).

I'll concede that Neutral-B1 can trap landings on stages without good platforms. That's a useful trait. It's still quite punishable if you miss, which is a big deal.

 

[[Deuce]]

Evolved thoughts on custom moves:



Fireball is actually probably best, though Fast Fireball clearly has uses.

Gust Cape is non-trivially slower (easy to overlook) but probably always worth taking. Electric Cape is not a bad move.

There is no sane reason to take the non-hitting up-b 2. Anyone suggesting it is entirely out of touch with high-level Mario play. Up-b 3 is a trade-off due to how slow it is. Frame 3 combo-escape/finisher Up-b is super pivotal to Mario.

No opinion on FLUDD.



I'm increasingly positive on all of his defaults, though side-b 3 is nice. I guess.



I am much more positive on default side-b now, but 2 is also quite good. (Matchup-specific case)

Up-b 2 has super armor on startup and is faster, but I tend to still think default is generally better? Not sure.

Default and Giant Mechkoopas are both good.



The side-bs are cute options, but not a big deal.

Up-b 3 remains laughably amazing. Otherwise, not much matters.



Yeah, all his customs are awful. I *might* use down-b 3 in some matchups, but what do I know.



Little Mac has to take neutral-b 2 in every set, period. The KO punch armor buff alone requires it, and it's better than 3.

Little Mac side-b 3 remains a crucial option in certain matchups, I feel. Same with Dash Counter.

However, Little Mac absolutely must use default up-b in every matchup on every stage, at least in 1v1s. It's too critical to give up--it's the ONLY tool he has for the purpose it serves.



Default Nayru's Love really is dominant and must be used in every set. The exploding one isn't worth it. If you listened to my past self defending this, don't listen--that guy is an idiot.

I am actually increasingly partial to side-b 3 though. It's useful in some edge-guard situations--and you aren't getting anything out of any Din's in neutral anyway.

I think up-b 3 is the coolest move in the game and will always want to use it. However, the move is still bad in a dozen different ways, and I don't main Zelda. I will remain adamantly in vocal support of it, while suggesting it not be used on any set.

Phantom 3 is increasingly dubious in practice. I find the others much more useful. When I play 3333 to use up-b 3, I find myself groaning at my dead-b proving to be dead weight in any situation.



Needles versus Piercing Needles (aka crazy shield damage needles) is a tough decision, actually. But Paralyzing Needle is truly awful, unless I'm missing something definitive and big.

Grenade 2 is not dominant over default, though it's probably better. The default functions as a linear anti-projectile counter, and beats dash grab in certain situations. Grenade 2 does neither. 3 seems irrelevant at a glance.

Default up-b is just clearly superior for the purposes it serves in high-level Sheik gameplay.

Jellyfish is a bad move. Pisces is cute, but probably not worth it; Bouncing Fish is just too good.



Warlock Thrust might be good, but personally I don't really like it. Plus, tbqh, who cares...?

I still cannot get the appeal of Dark Vault, but whatever.

Using exclusively Wizard's Dropkick has made me more aware of its limitations and costs. While I will probably continue to do so, I increasingly respect others not wanting it in some situations.



Honestly, all of her defaults are probably best, except maybe side-b 3.

Both down-b options are actually pretty good, but the default is just way, way too good to give up.

Default up-b 1 is a stupid move that is stupid good. Plz nerf.



I stand by what we've got.



Palutena tier list!

The One True Set tier:

2312

I Guess The Other Down-Bs Are Okay Options tier:

2311
2313

Maybe You Like Auto-Reticule, That's Alright I Guess tier:

1311
1312
1313

Fine, Don't Warp Cancel, Use Jump Glide Or Rocket Jump, WHATEVER tier:

132X
133X
232X
233X

Trash Tier:

3XXX
X1XX
X2XX



Existing thoughts seem accurate. But default Shield Breaker and Counter really are great moves.



I think a set with default Counter and other "good moves" is appropriate.



Thunder+ still crucial. Speed Thunder still key in worst matchups.

Default Nosferatu better in practice than I expected, but we'll see if that continues to hold true. Distant Nosferatu is neat in teams. Goetia still seems awful, especially against informed opponents. Too slow.



So uh, Zigzag Can is beyond dominant. Like, it's one of the best moves in the game and I have no idea how this character is viable without it. It's like playing Rosalina without Luma. I always have a can out, full-stop, covering me from getting grabbed.

Default side-b is surely best, but side-b 3 has interesting mechanics. Namely, the breaking of the disc is what does the bulk of damage with the default--for side-b 3, it's the shots themselves. Not sure if this is exploitable--probably not.

Up-b 3 is overrated but I'd probably still use it in most matchups. Like, the default really is pretty poor, but 3 has better mixups with his off-stage options despite the fixed nature.

I am prepared to endorse all 3 Gunman. (Erm, 15?) I'm curious to see what matchups they are best suited for.



My experience is trivial here, but I did like using up-b 3.



What we have seems dead on. Defaults are solid, but neutral-2 and down-2 are interesting and viable options. Side-3 is a strict but trivial upgrade.



Man, I don't even know where to begin.

Flamethrower is probably fine. It has proven its value as best in slot imo.

Dragon Rush, yes, is best. Flare Blitz, yes, might be situationally worth using, but I'd use 1111 in that case.

I dislike Fly High because I despise forfeiting OoS options. Rising Cyclone, while sometimes unreliable, does absurd enough levels of knockback as an anti-air move to be worth considering. Like, you just can't ignore a move that legitimately kills off of air dodge reads at 50%. This move needs more investigation.

I have never understood giving up Rock Smash for Sinking Skull. The proposition seems asinine to me. Rock Hurl is weaker, but a bit better anti-air and absurdly armored. Absolutely worth incorporating.

My suggestions:

1311
1313
1321
1331
1313
1323



First, I tested Rollout 3 as a Shield Punish. Full-charged f-smash or Rest seems superior or comparable in most situations.

Second, Rollout 1 has legitimate recovery utility in some matchups, which 3 does not.

Third, Rollout 1 is (and has always been) an okay trap for a full hop when there are no platforms.

Pound 2 and 3 are much slower and do far, far less shield damage. Their respective advantages are appreciated, but default is going to be usually best.

I appreciate the utility Reflex posted about regarding Spinphony. Sweet, ship it.

Rest is best, but Leaping Rest isn't a bad move. I can see some people liking it. Wakie-Wakie is slower than Ganon u-tilt.



Ness's defaults really are best. (Down-b is #whatever)



I still don't understand Pushy Lloid. Otherwise what we've got is great. (I do think default Timber is so radically different--and a great move--that it is worth having around as an option.)



I'm finding Sweeping Sun Salutation pretty meh. Also, I'm preferring 2 way more than the default.

Volatile Breathing has super armor on startup inhale, which is fun.

Huge Header is still bad.

I suggest:

1121
2121
2122
2321
2322
3322



Not gonna lie, I strictly prefer defaults on Mega Man. Sometimes I'd consider 1112.

I find it neat how quite a few of the characters currently placing high in tournaments (diddy, shiek, zss, luigi etc) find many of their defaults as the best option, it only serves to highlight how customs can bring many of the characters closer together in overall strength

 

[Raijinken]

Some Mac thoughts--

For all it's worth, Electric Neutral-B covers a lot of space at once with minimal charge; I wonder if it could be used to trap landings easily on no-plat stages, and it has more realistic recovery utility even without the armor. Regular Neutral-B dealing 14% and solid knockback to people using rapid Jabs has decent utility. Fire Neutral-B deals negligible knockback and damage in the same situations as Regular Neutral-B, and its "recovery utility" only applies on a full charge, which will mean absolutely nothing as long as he can't grab the ledge during the animation. It's likely they all have their own incredibly situational uses, with the super armor on the customs obviously meaning a lot.

The more I mess with Grounding Forward-B, the more I like it. If you catch a Ledge Jump or an offstage opponent trying to edgeguard you at anything other than very low percents with it, you likely kill the opponent. The aerial Forward-B1 distance nerf seems to make Grounding Forward-B slightly better for recovery instead of slightly worse, Dash Attack adequately covers a lot of the situations that regular Forward-B would be useful, and it's nice to have another tool to potentially threaten air/platform campers due to the extra distance traveled/covered. If you manage to bury someone, Mac has good options for damage afterward; D-Tilt racks it up quickly, and Up-B1 un-buries them while still getting all the hits/knockback on the final hit, meaning he has a reliable KO move on a buried opponent, which is otherwise uncommon without a hard read. Armored Forward-B still seems like garbage, though--Forward-B2 deserves some real consideration, however.

I imagine that there are matchups where the extra recovery from Up-B2 is more useful than the combo/KO potential of Up-B1, even if they are rare. Matchups where you have little trouble trapping landings and bullying people on the ground are certainly there, as well as matchups where high horizontal aerial mobility and base knockback moves screw Mac over on any Up-B whiff. The sharp angle and increased hitlag on Up-B2 can cause weak stage spikes at times. It has poor synergy with Compact Counter but allows you to use your superior ground game more often by virtue of staying alive longer; I'd say it merits use on at least one set. Unfortunately, Rising Smash seems to be complete garbage as long as the start-up is as terrible as it is; it's not even worth it in Doubles; Up-B3 appears worthless.

All of his Counters have situational uses that are fairly obvious, but I think I prefer Compact Counter these days. Mac generally loses to love taps and grabs that get him in the air, so you're rarely gonna find situations to Counter big moves, especially in high-level play, and the slight start-up on top of significant endlag means that other counters are likely to get shielded or avoided -> punished. Countering with the other customs offstage can still get you killed even if you're successful due to the height loss during the swing, too. The low endlag lets you use it to avoid many of the things you just want the invincibility against without leaving yourself open. It floats them just enough to easily get the Up-B follow-up after a hit, making it a reliable combo and KO set-up at high percents. I'm pretty sure Down-B2 will become the Counter of choice as the metagame progresses.

The value I've always found with Fire B is that the knockback is more or less entirely horizontal, which can be rather crippling against a handful of characters. Probably still too situational to make it valuable, but I still find it more useful than the standard B.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's fair; the angle -is- pretty sharp.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Thinkaman I'm not quoting that whole post, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the following things:

What makes Jellyfish/Pisces bad? Is it the angle Sheik bounces off the target?

Is Reflect bad or is Super Speed just so amazing as to overshadow the utility of a reflector? What about matchups with, say, Lucario or Villager?

Why is Huge Header bad? I thought large hitboxes = good. (And WFT needs sorely needs big hitboxes.)

Just really confused here, I thought he had some interesting options in Hyper Bomb, Danger Wrap, and Plant Barrier. (You already mention Skull Barrier.)

 

[Venks]

Evolved thoughts on custom moves:


Ness's defaults really are best. (Down-b is #whatever)



I still don't understand Pushy Lloid. Otherwise what we've got is great. (I do think default Timber is so radically different--and a great move--that it is worth having around as an option.)

Ness's best custom move is PK Lasting Thunder. It's vastly superior to the normal PK Thunder because it hits opponents or their shields and continues to stay active. It's a powerful pressure and gimping tool. You lose the power Ness gets from normal PK Thunder, but it's set ups are escapable in the first place.
Melbourne, Australia's highest ranking player mains both Ness and Villager and she will always run PK Lasting Thunder over the default. The move is stupid good.

As for Villager it depends on the matchup. The Pushy Lloid doesn't cover as much distance, but it limits the opponent's options. They can't just roll through the Pushy Lloid because of how big it is. Also the seer size of the thing and its slower speed make it far superior for controlling space. The Pushy Lloid also has much higher health so weak hits aren't going to do anything to it.
Lastly if they ever block the Pushy Lloid then they are stuck in shield due to the multiple hits. That's a free grab right there.

Pushy Lloid is the better option in almost all matchups. It's not as good against characters with reflectors, but that does open them up to short hop nAirs and dAirs if they try to reflect. Pushy Lloid eats up a lot of weaker projectiles, for example Sheik's needles are useless against Villager if he has Pushy Lloid.

Some Mac thoughts--

For all it's worth, Electric Neutral-B covers a lot of space at once with minimal charge; I wonder if it could be used to trap landings easily on no-plat stages, and it has more realistic recovery utility even without the armor. Regular Neutral-B dealing 14% and solid knockback to people using rapid Jabs has decent utility. Fire Neutral-B deals negligible knockback and damage in the same situations as Regular Neutral-B, and its "recovery utility" only applies on a full charge, which will mean absolutely nothing as long as he can't grab the ledge during the animation. It's likely they all have their own incredibly situational uses, with the super armor on the customs obviously meaning a lot.

The more I mess with Grounding Forward-B, the more I like it. If you catch a Ledge Jump or an offstage opponent trying to edgeguard you at anything other than very low percents with it, you likely kill the opponent. The aerial Forward-B1 distance nerf seems to make Grounding Forward-B slightly better for recovery instead of slightly worse, Dash Attack adequately covers a lot of the situations that regular Forward-B would be useful, and it's nice to have another tool to potentially threaten air/platform campers due to the extra distance traveled/covered. If you manage to bury someone, Mac has good options for damage afterward; D-Tilt racks it up quickly, and Up-B1 un-buries them while still getting all the hits/knockback on the final hit, meaning he has a reliable KO move on a buried opponent, which is otherwise uncommon without a hard read. Armored Forward-B still seems like garbage, though--Forward-B2 deserves some real consideration, however.

I imagine that there are matchups where the extra recovery from Up-B2 is more useful than the combo/KO potential of Up-B1, even if they are rare. Matchups where you have little trouble trapping landings and bullying people on the ground are certainly there, as well as matchups where high horizontal aerial mobility and base knockback moves screw Mac over on any Up-B whiff. The sharp angle and increased hitlag on Up-B2 can cause weak stage spikes at times. It has poor synergy with Compact Counter but allows you to use your superior ground game more often by virtue of staying alive longer; I'd say it merits use on at least one set. Unfortunately, Rising Smash seems to be complete garbage as long as the start-up is as terrible as it is; it's not even worth it in Doubles; Up-B3 appears worthless.

All of his Counters have situational uses that are fairly obvious, but I think I prefer Compact Counter these days. Mac generally loses to love taps and grabs that get him in the air, so you're rarely gonna find situations to Counter big moves, especially in high-level play, and the slight start-up on top of significant endlag means that other counters are likely to get shielded or avoided -> punished. Countering with the other customs offstage can still get you killed even if you're successful due to the height loss during the swing, too. The low endlag lets you use it to avoid many of the things you just want the invincibility against without leaving yourself open. It floats them just enough to easily get the Up-B follow-up after a hit, making it a reliable combo and KO set-up at high percents. I'm pretty sure Down-B2 will become the Counter of choice as the metagame progresses.

Stunning Lunge is useless. The situations where you'll be high enough in the air to use the move as a recovery option are far and few in-between. Straight Lunge is a pretty bad move, but can be used now and then as an option for landing on the ground safely if you expect someone to try and juggle you with a weak hit. The heavy armor can protect you from a lot of things.
Stunning Lunge has no heavy armor so you're basically trading the move's only real utility for nothing. Flaming Lunge is the optimal version because it charges the fastest and thus activates the heavy armor and throws out a hit box faster than Straight Lunge.

Grounding Blow is pretty awesome and absolutely destroys wider characters. But you do lose Jolt Haymaker which is better against projectiles and hitting far reaching attacks thanks to its invincibility. Guard Breaker is absolutely amazing as if you get into range of the ledge you are 100% guaranteed to get back onto the stage. You can not be stopped thanks to the super armor.
I find all three of these moves are very useful in different situations and I think the current stand custom move project set has good representation of all of them.

Do you actually know how much more Tornado Uppercut recovers over Rising Uppercut? Because it's completely negligible.
When it comes to vertical distance Tornado Uppercut is likely to save me literally 0 times more from falling than Rising Uppercut in any given set. The distance is so small that I've never been in that exact situation where it'll help me.
The actual benefit of Tornado Uppercut is that it activates faster and has a wind box that pushes opponents away from you. This makes Little Mac LESS vulnerable to being stage spiked. You can still be stage spiked with proper timing and positioning, but it isn't as easy compared to Rising Uppercut.
I've found this custom move really depends on the opponent's play style more than match ups. Almost any character in the game can run off stage and back air as you attempt to recover. But currently we don't really see a lot of that. Most players expect Little Mac to recover high.
Personally I find this move less needed on any Little Mac set as the benefits it grants are not half as apparent as you would see with the other custom moves. Not to mention this completely butchers Little Mac's ability to threaten players who platform camp. If you're up against a Lucario who's sitting comfortable on the top platform there is really nothing you can do but try to pitifully scare him off the platform with your terrible aerials or hop onto the platform without an aerial to cover yourself with.
Rising Uppercut, however, allows you to kill that same Lucario if he was stupid enough to stand on the top platform around 110%. Stock gone.
That's a real life example that just happened in my last tournament by the way. Would not have beaten that player without Rising Uppercut.

As for counters I really only use them in the air or against projectiles. If I'm grounded against a normal character they are 9 times out of 10 trying to go for the grab. Default is pretty nice if I'm recovering high and Dash Counter lets me recover off of my opponent's projectiles. I don't really like the recovery paths where Compact Counter is useful. It doesn't help out as much as the other two. It's a good move, but I don't find it superior in any way.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Stunning Lunge is useless. The situations where you'll be high enough in the air to use the move as a recovery option are far and few in-between. Straight Lunge is a pretty bad move, but can be used now and then as an option for landing on the ground safely if you expect someone to try and juggle you with a weak hit. The heavy armor can protect you from a lot of things.

Stunning Lunge has no heavy armor so you're basically trading the move's only real utility for nothing. Flaming Lunge is the optimal version because it charges the fastest and thus activates the heavy armor and throws out a hit box faster than Straight Lunge.

Grounding Blow is pretty awesome and absolutely destroys wider characters. But you do lose Jolt Haymaker which is better against projectiles and hitting far reaching attacks thanks to its invincibility. Guard Breaker is absolutely amazing as if you get into range of the ledge you are 100% guaranteed to get back onto the stage. You can not be stopped thanks to the super armor.
I find all three of these moves are very useful in different situations and I think the current stand custom move project set has good representation of all of them.

Do you actually know how much more Tornado Uppercut recovers over Rising Uppercut? Because it's completely negligible.
When it comes to vertical distance Tornado Uppercut is likely to save me literally 0 times more from falling than Rising Uppercut in any given set. The distance is so small that I've never been in that exact situation where it'll help me.
The actual benefit of Tornado Uppercut is that it activates faster and has a wind box that pushes opponents away from you. This makes Little Mac LESS vulnerable to being stage spiked. You can still be stage spiked with proper timing and positioning, but it isn't as easy compared to Rising Uppercut.
I've found this custom move really depends on the opponent's play style more than match ups. Almost any character in the game can run off stage and back air as you attempt to recover. But currently we don't really see a lot of that. Most players expect Little Mac to recover high.
Personally I find this move less needed on any Little Mac set as the benefits it grants are not half as apparent as you would see with the other custom moves. Not to mention this completely butchers Little Mac's ability to threaten players who platform camp. If you're up against a Lucario who's sitting comfortable on the top platform there is really nothing you can do but try to pitifully scare him off the platform with your terrible aerials or hop onto the platform without an aerial to cover yourself with.
Rising Uppercut, however, allows you to kill that same Lucario if he was stupid enough to stand on the top platform around 110%. Stock gone.
That's a real life example that just happened in my last tournament by the way. Would not have beaten that player without Rising Uppercut.

As for counters I really only use them in the air or against projectiles. If I'm grounded against a normal character they are 9 times out of 10 trying to go for the grab. Default is pretty nice if I'm recovering high and Dash Counter lets me recover off of my opponent's projectiles. I don't really like the recovery paths where Compact Counter is useful. It doesn't help out as much as the other two. It's a good move, but I don't find it superior in any way.

The shorter minimum charge time helps the Fire Neutral-B get you down from the air in specific situations, but the actual lunge distance isn't great even when close to fully-charged (or even fully-charged), meaning it's very likely you're going to get punished for it/put right back into the air again anyway. The angle is neat to catch stray hits with and put people in weird positions but it's not doing you many favors defensively from the air and doesn't do a lot of damage for your trouble. Electric has its place in Doubles, whether it sends opponents behind you (and, consequently, toward your teammate) and covers way more distance than the other two for the the time spent charging. They all have their own very situational usefulness and I think it's misleading to suggest that any one is noticeably better than the others.

The problem with Armored Forward-B is its abysmal start-up, as well as the fact that the Super Armor doesn't even kick in until Frame 12, which is later than the earliest swing with the other two Forward-Bs. It's actually abusable by the opponent, who can get free damage while easily avoiding the Forward-B attack afterward. The landing lag is also noticeably higher, generally making it useless on-stage.

Tornado Up-B is significantly better for recovery than the other two. In the image you linked, every character was on the ground when using it; Normal Up-B goes way higher from the ground, and both Tornado Up-B and Powerful Up-B are significantly affected by negative momentum beforehand. The optimal way to use the latter two for recovery is to use your jump and time your Up-B so that Mac starts rising before he starts falling to full speed (with Powerful Up-B's significant start-up, that means starting it sometime during the way up). Use a shorthop or fullhop and use each Up-B so that you start rising from the Up-B's momentum at the peak of that jump (right when you'd normally start falling)--You will see a significant increase in distance covered; Powerful Up-B has the same height covered as Normal Up-B when it isn't pulled down in advance, and Tornado Up-B goes noticeably higher. I don't know how this got spread around the Mac boards when I dispelled the idea months ago, but, now you know.

Also, Tornado Up-B has a hitbox out -later- than Normal Up-B due to Tornado Up-B not having the initial side hitbox, so the advantage you suggested there does not exist. :|

The thing about using your Counter for recovery is that as the metagame progresses, people will get smarter about how they stuff it; you can fall with Mac and attack it from below, then get a free punish after the Counter because of its significant endlag. Projectile Counter works in much the same way because of its significant endlag; what incentive do people have to shoot projectiles at you offstage when you have this except to easily punish you afterward?

 

[Thinkaman]

I prefer the Skull Barrier strictly against opponents with slow/predictable but reflect-worthy projectiles (Samus, Links, Killager). Less relevant at higher level play than at my friends' level, I'm sure, but then again, no matter its gimp potential or ability to add single digits of damage to a grab, I'm of the opinion that the Leaf Shield is very nearly as bad in Smash as it is in Megaman 2.

I actually have been slowly warming to Leaf Shield. It's actually pretty okay in the neutral as long as you activate it while holding a Metal Blade. The objective is always to make something happens as it ends (or get a grab), but you aren't overly committed to this.

The more I mess with Grounding Forward-B, the more I like it. If you catch a Ledge Jump or an offstage opponent trying to edgeguard you at anything other than very low percents with it, you likely kill the opponent. The aerial Forward-B1 distance nerf seems to make Grounding Forward-B slightly better for recovery instead of slightly worse, Dash Attack adequately covers a lot of the situations that regular Forward-B would be useful, and it's nice to have another tool to potentially threaten air/platform campers due to the extra distance traveled/covered. If you manage to bury someone, Mac has good options for damage afterward; D-Tilt racks it up quickly, and Up-B1 un-buries them while still getting all the hits/knockback on the final hit, meaning he has a reliable KO move on a buried opponent, which is otherwise uncommon without a hard read. Armored Forward-B still seems like garbage, though--Forward-B2 deserves some real consideration, however.

Hm, interesting. I have gotten a lot of mileage out of the armored one.

I basically can't recover against a decent Pikachu without it.

Also, side-b is definitely not strictly out-classed by dash attack. It beats low projectiles like Needles and Paralyzer, which are a big deal. I'd always prefer to have that threat on the table, than just walk forward shielding.

I imagine that there are matchups where the extra recovery from Up-B2 is more useful than the combo/KO potential of Up-B1, even if they are rare.

I mean, it would HAVE to be on FD I feel, and against someone with dismal aerial pressure.

All of his Counters have situational uses that are fairly obvious, but I think I prefer Compact Counter these days. Mac generally loses to love taps and grabs that get him in the air, so you're rarely gonna find situations to Counter big moves, especially in high-level play, and the slight start-up on top of significant endlag means that other counters are likely to get shielded or avoided -> punished. Countering with the other customs offstage can still get you killed even if you're successful due to the height loss during the swing, too. The low endlag lets you use it to avoid many of the things you just want the invincibility against without leaving yourself open. It floats them just enough to easily get the Up-B follow-up after a hit, making it a reliable combo and KO set-up at high percents. I'm pretty sure Down-B2 will become the Counter of choice as the metagame progresses.

Interesting, I have overlooked this move for no reason. I'll explore it more.

As for Rollout, Jigglypuff should almost never use Neutral-B1 to recover by virtue of her already-great recovery and the fact that opponents can edgeguard with their faces, since you die if you hit someone at or before the ledge.

I mean, I only use it to recover high, and only in matchups that don't have to commit in an avoidable way to a jump to intercept.

I understand the trepidation; Rollout has just always been a move I've had unusual personal success with. I normally use it about once a match.

Neutral-B3 ignores shields, and all versions of Rollout have a 7% hitbox when Jigglypuff touches the ground from the air while doing it even when completely uncharged, so Neutral-B3 technically gives her a weak unblockable attack, slightly discouraging opponents from just holding Shield at mid percents (as it's punishable on hit before ~50%).

I remember finding this and exploring it a bit, but never converted it into anything useful.

What makes Jellyfish/Pisces bad? Is it the angle Sheik bounces off the target?

It's much harder to land, much slower, and KOs significantly later--especially off-stage, where it is basically not useable anyway. This is not worth the extra damage it does. It also is probably unreliable in certain situations involving stages.

Is Reflect bad or is Super Speed just so amazing as to overshadow the utility of a reflector? What about matchups with, say, Lucario or Villager?

Super Speed is just that amazing, and especially needed in campy matchups anyway. I need to get some videos up, so people can understand how insane (and fun) Super Speed really is.

Why is Huge Header bad? I thought large hitboxes = good. (And WFT needs sorely needs big hitboxes.)

I mean, if all you care about is huge hitboxes, Ganon u-tilt and Spinphony would be the best moves in the game. But you aren't going to hit anyone with them, and WFT isn't gonna hit anyone with Huge Header either. And if you do? 2%! Baby baby!

Sure, stage control is a thing, but enemies can just hit the slow moving ball to take ownership of it anyway--and unlike Gordos, you don't have a magical side-b that magnetically reclaims it and punishes.

It's not a BAD move, but the other two header options have a lot of utility and value, usually in separate matchups.

Just really confused here, I thought he had some interesting options in Hyper Bomb, Danger Wrap, and Plant Barrier. (You already mention Skull Barrier.)

I acknowledge the value of most of MM's customs, I just dislike them.

Metal Blade is imo way, way too good and crucial to give up. I've yet to see anytihng the other two options can do that remotely makes up for it. The setups, the down-b synergy, the pressure and approaches, it's all just too good.

Danger Wrap is a solid move, but I like Crash Bomber more than I should.

Plant Barrier is okay, but I think I like Leaf Shield a bit more. Might explore a bit with it.

Ness's best custom move is PK Lasting Thunder. It's vastly superior to the normal PK Thunder because it hits opponents or their shields and continues to stay active. It's a powerful pressure and gimping tool. You lose the power Ness gets from normal PK Thunder, but it's set ups are escapable in the first place.
Melbourne, Australia's highest ranking player mains both Ness and Villager and she will always run PK Lasting Thunder over the default. The move is stupid good.

I dunno man, default PKT is bananas in this game. Lasting PKT still gets gimped if they attack, reflect, or otherwise cancel the orb, which is easier because it's slower.

I tried using it for awhile against Ampharos in some test games a while back, and got dismal results in comparison to the default.

As for Villager it depends on the matchup. The Pushy Lloid doesn't cover as much distance, but it limits the opponent's options. They can't just roll through the Pushy Lloid because of how big it is.

I'm pretty sure you can, and was this ever actually an option?

Lastly if they ever block the Pushy Lloid then they are stuck in shield due to the multiple hits. That's a free grab right there.

I mean, isn't this always true? Almost every Lloid I throw out in the neutral-approach has the consideration of "If they do try and block for some reason, I'm going to grab them."

Also the seer size of the thing and its slower speed make it far superior for controlling space. The Pushy Lloid also has much higher health so weak hits aren't going to do anything to it.

Pushy Lloid is the better option in almost all matchups. It's not as good against characters with reflectors, but that does open them up to short hop nAirs and dAirs if they try to reflect. Pushy Lloid eats up a lot of weaker projectiles, for example Sheik's needles are useless against Villager if he has Pushy Lloid.

Hm, I might play around with this.

But reflectors shouldn't matter; they are too slow and Villager has Pocket.

Stunning Lunge is useless. The situations where you'll be high enough in the air to use the move as a recovery option are far and few in-between. Straight Lunge is a pretty bad move, but can be used now and then as an option for landing on the ground safely if you expect someone to try and juggle you with a weak hit. The heavy armor can protect you from a lot of things.
Stunning Lunge has no heavy armor so you're basically trading the move's only real utility for nothing. Flaming Lunge is the optimal version because it charges the fastest and thus activates the heavy armor and throws out a hit box faster than Straight Lunge.

This has been my experience on every point.

Guard Breaker is absolutely amazing as if you get into range of the ledge you are 100% guaranteed to get back onto the stage. You can not be stopped thanks to the super armor.

Well, he has to be mindful of windboxes and command grabs, but yeah. It's really nice.

Do you actually know how much more Tornado Uppercut recovers over Rising Uppercut? Because it's completely negligible.
When it comes to vertical distance Tornado Uppercut is likely to save me literally 0 times more from falling than Rising Uppercut in any given set. The distance is so small that I've never been in that exact situation where it'll help me.
The actual benefit of Tornado Uppercut is that it activates faster and has a wind box that pushes opponents away from you. This makes Little Mac LESS vulnerable to being stage spiked. You can still be stage spiked with proper timing and positioning, but it isn't as easy compared to Rising Uppercut.
I've found this custom move really depends on the opponent's play style more than match ups. Almost any character in the game can run off stage and back air as you attempt to recover. But currently we don't really see a lot of that. Most players expect Little Mac to recover high.
Personally I find this move less needed on any Little Mac set as the benefits it grants are not half as apparent as you would see with the other custom moves. Not to mention this completely butchers Little Mac's ability to threaten players who platform camp. If you're up against a Lucario who's sitting comfortable on the top platform there is really nothing you can do but try to pitifully scare him off the platform with your terrible aerials or hop onto the platform without an aerial to cover yourself with.
Rising Uppercut, however, allows you to kill that same Lucario if he was stupid enough to stand on the top platform around 110%. Stock gone.
That's a real life example that just happened in my last tournament by the way. Would not have beaten that player without Rising Uppercut.

All of this. Rising Uppercut is the one ace Mac against the air. He just can't give it up for anything.

The problem with Armored Forward-B is its abysmal start-up, as well as the fact that the Super Armor doesn't even kick in until Frame 12, which is later than the earliest swing with the other two Forward-Bs. It's actually abusable by the opponent, who can get free damage while easily avoiding the Forward-B attack afterward. The landing lag is also noticeably higher, generally making it useless on-stage.

Oh it's a terrible move, no doubt. You only use it to go straight for the ledge, ever.

It's not used to beat other attacks, like Sheik fair or some such. It's used to get through a hitbox wall, like Pikachu down-b 2.

The thing about using your Counter for recovery is that as the metagame progresses, people will get smarter about how they stuff it; you can fall with Mac and attack it from below, then get a free punish after the Counter because of its significant endlag. Projectile Counter works in much the same way because of its significant endlag; what incentive do people have to shoot projectiles at you offstage when you have this except to easily punish you afterward?

Yup, all counter-based recoveries are super punishable gimmicks. But we're Little Mac here--playing with very few cards in hand, and making the most of what we've got.

As long as Counter provides a workable mixup when mixed with side-b, Little Mac has a shot at getting back. That's really all we're hoping for.

Edit: I'm dumb, Bowser Jr. up-b 2 is super mega amazing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually have been slowly warming to Leaf Shield. It's actually pretty okay in the neutral as long as you activate it while holding a Metal Blade. The objective is always to make something happens as it ends (or get a grab), but you aren't overly committed to this.



Hm, interesting. I have gotten a lot of mileage out of the armored one.

I basically can't recover against a decent Pikachu without it.

Also, side-b is definitely not strictly out-classed by dash attack. It beats low projectiles like Needles and Paralyzer, which are a big deal. I'd always prefer to have that threat on the table, than just walk forward shielding.



I mean, it would HAVE to be on FD I feel, and against someone with dismal aerial pressure.



Interesting, I have overlooked this move for no reason. I'll explore it more.



I mean, I only use it to recover high, and only in matchups that don't have to commit in an avoidable way to a jump to intercept.

I understand the trepidation; Rollout has just always been a move I've had unusual personal success with. I normally use it about once a match.



I remember finding this and exploring it a bit, but never converted it into anything useful.



It's much harder to land, much slower, and KOs significantly later--especially off-stage, where it is basically not useable anyway. This is not worth the extra damage it does. It also is probably unreliable in certain situations involving stages.

You need to close the quote tag after my Palutena question, FYI. Those videos of Super Speed in campy matchups sound interesting.

For Huge Header, okay, but a followup since I forgot earlier: Weighted Header Y/N? I mostly ask because I'm not sure how the trajectory is useful. Granted I don't use WFT so IDK if you can somehow send it ahead like normal Header in addition to basically down.

 

[Thinkaman]

Weighted Header is good as an edge-guard against low and otherwise safe recoveries, and as an okay anti-rushdown option. I like it.

 

[Venks]

The shorter minimum charge time helps the Fire Neutral-B get you down from the air in specific situations, but the actual lunge distance isn't great even when close to fully-charged (or even fully-charged), meaning it's very likely you're going to get punished for it/put right back into the air again anyway. The angle is neat to catch stray hits with and put people in weird positions but it's not doing you many favors defensively from the air and doesn't do a lot of damage for your trouble. Electric has its place in Doubles, whether it sends opponents behind you (and, consequently, toward your teammate) and covers way more distance than the other two for the the time spent charging. They all have their own very situational usefulness and I think it's misleading to suggest that any one is noticeably better than the others.

The problem with Armored Forward-B is its abysmal start-up, as well as the fact that the Super Armor doesn't even kick in until Frame 12, which is later than the earliest swing with the other two Forward-Bs. It's actually abusable by the opponent, who can get free damage while easily avoiding the Forward-B attack afterward. The landing lag is also noticeably higher, generally making it useless on-stage.

Tornado Up-B is significantly better for recovery than the other two. In the image you linked, every character was on the ground when using it; Normal Up-B goes way higher from the ground, and both Tornado Up-B and Powerful Up-B are significantly affected by negative momentum beforehand. The optimal way to use the latter two for recovery is to use your jump and time your Up-B so that Mac starts rising before he starts falling to full speed (with Powerful Up-B's significant start-up, that means starting it sometime during the way up). Use a shorthop or fullhop and use each Up-B so that you start rising from the Up-B's momentum at the peak of that jump (right when you'd normally start falling)--You will see a significant increase in distance covered; Powerful Up-B has the same height covered as Normal Up-B when it isn't pulled down in advance, and Tornado Up-B goes noticeably higher. I don't know how this got spread around the Mac boards when I dispelled the idea months ago, but, now you know.

Also, Tornado Up-B has a hitbox out -later- than Normal Up-B due to Tornado Up-B not having the initial side hitbox, so the advantage you suggested there does not exist. :|

The thing about using your Counter for recovery is that as the metagame progresses, people will get smarter about how they stuff it; you can fall with Mac and attack it from below, then get a free punish after the Counter because of its significant endlag. Projectile Counter works in much the same way because of its significant endlag; what incentive do people have to shoot projectiles at you offstage when you have this except to easily punish you afterward?

Have you played in any tournaments with custom moves enabled as Little Mac? Because I see a lot of theory and not enough talk about how things actually play out in a match.

You don't seem to understand how to use Flaming Lunge properly. It's not something you would use when the opponent is distanced from you. It's something you use as the opponent is coming towards you. Ideally you won't be moving forward at all. You use the minimum charge on Flaming Lunge so you get the heavy armor and the active hitbox. In the same situation Stunning Lunge loses 100% of the time... it takes longer to reach minimum charge and has no heavy armor.
This is the best use for the Straight Lunge custom move. It's a great defensive air tool mixed alongside aerial dodges, counters, and fast falling.
Why? Why would you ever fully charge a Straight Lunge attack? In what situation is that helpful? All versions of Straight Lunge have massive amounts of end lag when you do that. Not to mention default Straight Lunge travels further if you use it BEFORE it reaches full charge. Even then it's still a bad option as the end lag is still punishable.

Stunning Lunge definitely has a use in 2v2. I don't mind using the 3333 set in 2v2s as I can get away with a lot due to the chaotic nature of the match. And of course your team mate can set you up for Rising Smash so you get KOs around 65%. It feels gimmicky, but I won the tournament so that works for me.

Guard Breaker useless on stage? My number one use for it would have to be punishing a shield after someone stands up at ledge. Stand at ledge is so good because of all the invincibility and the very small window to punish on prediction. Sure you could grab the opponent if you have good timing, but all you do is like 9% damage. Guard Breaker is active much longer than Little Mac's grab and can kill at high percents.
The second use would have to be for punishing dodge rolls. If I predict a roll than I'll lunge right after them. Even if I mistime hitting the back part of roll's vulnerability I'll still hit my opponent before they can perform any action.
Third use is definitely trading hits with spaced attacks. If someone is keeping me out with a perfectly spaced forward tilt or smash attack on a character with a lot of reach (DK, Dedede, Lucina, Shulk) then I will use guard breaker to force my way in.
The fourth use would have to be going through shield. Yeah the move is slow, but Little Mac is scary. I can't tell you the number of times I use Guard Breaker on my opponents and they try to shield it by instinct even though they know it goes through shield.

I say all these uses, but I do use the move rather rarely. I'd say I use it about as much as I use Jolt Haymaker or Grounding Blow. I love all of them, but they are all incredibly punishable. The risk is just too high to use any of these moves that often. Generally I only use these attacks on stage about zero to two times in the average match. It really depends on the matchup, the stage(Grounding Blow), and the play style of my opponent.
Against Rob I will use Jolt Haymaker a lot to punish his projectiles, against Bowser on FD or Smashville I'll abuse Grounding Blow tons, and against Villager I will Guard Break through the Pushy Lloid every time.

You probably didn't read the rest of the discussion followed after the picture I linked. Another Little Mac user was trying to advocate Rising Smash as the go-to alternative because it travels further up then Rising Uppercut if used in tandem with a jump. The problem really comes from the fact that this means your route is more predictable. In order to gain the extra height when you need to recover you have to save your double jump until you're under the stage. Double jump into aerial dodge is something you'll need for almost every single matchup when you're being chased off stage. So when you don't have your double jump to use Rising Tornado goes almost the exact same distance as Rising Uppercut. But this costs you the ability to KO people who jump over you.
Rising Uppercut is such a good punishing tool for players who predictably jump from the ledge or platform camp. Heck it's a more optimal hard punish attack on Battlefield Halberd where it KOs at 85% on medium characters during the main phase and as early as 75% when you land on the ship due to the lower blast zone. You can also KO at ridiculously low percentages on Delfino Plaza during many of its transformations. During a transition I've landed a KO at 45%. I can't do that with Tornado Uppercut.
Oh and what if I get counterpicked onto Duck Hunt? You can't play on that stage without Rising Uppercut. Otherwise people will just laugh at you from on top of the tree. Again this is a stage I've gotten a KO as low as 45% because my opponent thought he was safe.

You keep saying there MIGHT be matchups that Tornado Uppercut is more useful. What are those matchups? Which stage am I playing on and which character am I up against that Tornado Uppercut's increased distance (only noticeable when combined with double jump) will help me enough to replace one of my best tools?

It doesn't matter which counter you use. If Sheik ever waits in front of you as you use counter and then she punishes it with a fAir after the counter state is done then you've died. Smart players will generally just fall next to LM to bait out either a counter or aerial dodge. That's why I prefer to recover low rather than high as it requires much more commitment from the opponent to gimp you. And of course I don't use counter at all. I just recover with Rising Uppercut from it's maximum distance so I can sweet spot the ledge. Unless the opponent is coming down for a gimp. In that situation I'll use Rising uppercut early in an attempt to stop them from gimping me.

At the end of day Little Mac will always be an easy to gimp character, but we can at least do the best we can to mix up our options so it isn't too deplorable.

 

[Thinkaman]

In Bowser Jr. thoughts, Grounding Dash seems insane too, if gimmicky.

As long as they can't mash out in time (50%+ makes this reasonable), Side-b 3 -> Up-b 1 is a true combo that does 46%. You can do it after putting a Giant Mechakoopa down as bait, and it does 61%.

Keep in mind that Side-b 3 startup has full super armor from frame 1...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you're going to be so matter-of-fact about the way you talk about this, then you're welcome to your reasoning, however limited it may be. I'm not going to argue with or listen to someone who tries to belittle with the start of every single point.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So Thinkaman and I were discussing stuff, and here's what I'm thinking. The original changelist I posted a while back is pretty good, probably good enough for most players especially since super explorative players like Reflex will be bringing their own 3ds to every tournament ever (I presume you do?). I am going to completely revamp Bowser Jr. to cover his best custom move options: side-2, up-2, down-3 (and the default versions of all three of course). I feel as though side-3 and down-2 are interesting but very niche and would be rarely selected by actual players, and honestly up-3 is just awful. On neutral it kinda doesn't matter since it's a bad move in all cases; neutral-3 is especially awful and is only even vaguely usable against Mac (and it's still the worst of all the wind moves). I'm thinking standardize on neutral-1 or neutral-2 which lets us iterate across all realistic combos of the important moves.

Neutral-1 has only one real use which is long range landing punishes. It's a slow, bad projectile otherwise that I don't think would ever be used other than that one, specific situation (and even then, you'd *usually* prefer to use car!). Neutral-2 is a substantially better annoyance move for its speed (and also pierces for the rare cases that's handy) but rarely really does anything useful to the point that I'm not completely convinced it's worth it. Which move is the less marginal of the two? Once I have that sorted out, I'm ready to ship this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So Thinkaman and I were discussing stuff, and here's what I'm thinking. The original changelist I posted a while back is pretty good, probably good enough for most players especially since super explorative players like Reflex will be bringing their own 3ds to every tournament ever (I presume you do?). I am going to completely revamp Bowser Jr. to cover his best custom move options: side-2, up-2, down-3 (and the default versions of all three of course). I feel as though side-3 and down-2 are interesting but very niche and would be rarely selected by actual players, and honestly up-3 is just awful. On neutral it kinda doesn't matter since it's a bad move in all cases; neutral-3 is especially awful and is only even vaguely usable against Mac (and it's still the worst of all the wind moves). I'm thinking standardize on neutral-1 or neutral-2 which lets us iterate across all realistic combos of the important moves.

Neutral-1 has only one real use which is long range landing punishes. It's a slow, bad projectile otherwise that I don't think would ever be used other than that one, specific situation (and even then, you'd *usually* prefer to use car!). Neutral-2 is a substantially better annoyance move for its speed (and also pierces for the rare cases that's handy) but rarely really does anything useful to the point that I'm not completely convinced it's worth it. Which move is the less marginal of the two? Once I have that sorted out, I'm ready to ship this.

I think you said it yourself. Neutral 1 is only good for long range punishes and Junior has the car for that, Neutral 2 is at least annoying.

Actually, a thought. Would the piercing property on Neutral 2 help it win projectile wars?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Update is live, check OP for changelist and the overall new list. Like I said, if you already used the work in progress changelist from earlier, all you have to do is update Bowser Jr. to be current. Thanks for everyone who contributed, and hopefully this project will help makes things way easier for TOs to run these wonderful customs.

 

[Pazzo.]

Feels great to have been a part of such a huge undertaking.

Here's to custom move sets and builds!