Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[frankabus]

A few questions here. I didn't hear about this project until now, so please correct any misconceptions I might have.

Are the six(ish) custom movesets for each character listed in order by statistical popularity (of the people sampled)? If we consider that I personally think of majority consensus to reflect the overall "tier" of a moveset, would it be accurate to say that the first moveset for each character would thus be the "best" moveset, as presently agreed upon by the people involved in the list creation? And on that note, where does 1111 fall into the hierarchies of each character? I assume this moveset was ignored since it's already available by default but for popularity/usefulness/tier-listing purposes, where does it slot into things?

Essentially, say I want to play/learn Mario and I want to start off on the best possible foot by choosing the "best" moveset for him. I assume I'll be pretty safe with trying 2333, as seen on the list, but I'll always wonder how 1111 compares...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A few questions here. I didn't hear about this project until now, so please correct any misconceptions I might have.

Are the six(ish) custom movesets for each character listed in order by statistical popularity (of the people sampled)? If we consider that I personally think of majority consensus to reflect the overall "tier" of a moveset, would it be accurate to say that the first moveset for each character would thus be the "best" moveset, as presently agreed upon by the people involved in the list creation? And on that note, where does 1111 fall into the hierarchies of each character? I assume this moveset was ignored since it's already available by default but for popularity/usefulness/tier-listing purposes, where does it slot into things?

Essentially, say I want to play/learn Mario and I want to start off on the best possible foot by choosing the "best" moveset for him. I assume I'll be pretty safe with trying 2333, as seen on the list, but I'll always wonder how 1111 compares...

They originally were sorted by "critical" and "supplementary" but the distinction was dropped with the recent update to the list. That said I believe they weren't resorted afterward so with the exception of any changed sets you could take that as a decent guideline but it's more by fluke than design at this point. (Not to mention that future updates will also mess with that.)

You're correct in assuming that 1111 was ignored because it's always available by default. 2222 and 3333 sets are also assumed to be present for all characters except Miis and Palutena, since their customs are all available by default and thus anyone can experiment with them at home. So most characters have 6 sets + 2222 + 3333 + 2 empty. Palutena gets 8 sets + 2 empty and the Miis are their own thing with their heights and weights. Ike's a weird case because 2222 is legit one of his best custom sets, so his list has it explicitly stated to emphasize this, and has a seventh set to keep the 6 + 2222/3333 + 2 thing going.

 

[frankabus]

They originally were sorted by "critical" and "supplementary" but the distinction was dropped with the recent update to the list. That said I believe they weren't resorted afterward so with the exception of any changed sets you could take that as a decent guideline but it's more by fluke than design at this point. (Not to mention that future updates will also mess with that.)

You're correct in assuming that 1111 was ignored because it's always available by default. 2222 and 3333 sets are also assumed to be present for all characters except Miis and Palutena, since their customs are all available by default and thus anyone can experiment with them at home. So most characters have 6 sets + 2222 + 3333 + 2 empty. Palutena gets 8 sets + 2 empty and the Miis are their own thing with their heights and weights. Ike's a weird case because 2222 is legit one of his best custom sets, so his list has it explicitly stated to emphasize this, and has a seventh set to keep the 6 + 2222/3333 + 2 thing going.

Ah so is the plan in the future to "overwrite" old, disliked movesets with newly desired ones, rather than delete, insert, and shift, in order to keep a #1 to #6 order?

If that's the case, would it not be fruitful to actually try to possibly keep a separate list that actually has them in (presumed) order of popularity/usefulness?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Ah so is the plan in the future to "overwrite" old, disliked movesets with newly desired ones, rather than delete, insert, and shift, in order to keep a #1 to #6 order?

If that's the case, would it not be fruitful to actually try to possibly keep a separate list that actually has them in (presumed) order of popularity/usefulness?

Not sure how Ampharos intends to do it but at this point I don't believe he has any real plans to keep a specific order. The purpose as I understand it is simply to give TOs a guide to which custom sets are the most likely to be used so they can use a 3DS to create and transfer the sets, in which case the exact order is irrelevant as long as they're available.

Also since people generally have different priorities when considering customs, there's little chance of reaching consensus on how to sort them by importance. Some boards had trouble just settling on 6 sets, I know the Ganondorf players in particular had a big debate over whether Warlock Blade vs. Warlock Thrust should be chosen as the neutral special since it seems to be a matter of personal preference.

 

[frankabus]

Not sure how Ampharos intends to do it but at this point I don't believe he has any real plans to keep a specific order. The purpose as I understand it is simply to give TOs a guide to which custom sets are the most likely to be used so they can use a 3DS to create and transfer the sets, in which case the exact order is irrelevant as long as they're available.

Also since people generally have different priorities when considering customs, there's little chance of reaching consensus on how to sort them by importance. Some boards had trouble just settling on 6 sets, I know the Ganondorf players in particular had a big debate over whether Warlock Blade vs. Warlock Thrust should be chosen as the neutral special since it seems to be a matter of personal preference.

In other words, would you say that the best way to find out is to go to each character-specific board to look for detailed understanding of the what/when/why/how of these sets?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In other words, would you say that the best way to find out is to go to each character-specific board to look for detailed understanding of the what/when/why/how of these sets?

Yes, there should be a dedicated thread on each board, although they're probably buried a few pages back by now.

 

[frankabus]

Yes, there should be a dedicated thread on each board, although they're probably buried a few pages back by now.

Okay, last questions, to sum up. Are there any characters where 1111 is almost definitively the BEST setup? Are there any characters where 1111 would definitely be a "critical" build/important option? If so, which ones?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Okay, last questions, to sum up. Are there any characters where 1111 is almost definitively the BEST setup? Are there any characters where 1111 would definitely be a "critical" build/important option? If so, which ones?

Better way of saying what I think is your question: "Are there any characters whose default specials are superior to their other options?"

Off the top of my head the only candidates for that are Diddy, Sheik, and Jigglypuff, but I'm not sure if defaults are literally their best option or if they just don't care as much because their defaults are already quite good (or in Jigglypuff's case, her customs are kind of bad).

 

[frankabus]

Better way of saying what I think is your question: "Are there any characters whose default specials are superior to their other options?"

Off the top of my head the only candidates for that are Diddy, Sheik, and Jigglypuff, but I'm not sure if defaults are literally their best option or if they just don't care as much because their defaults are already quite good (or in Jigglypuff's case, her customs are kind of bad).

I guess that answers the first question. The second would be more like "Are there any whose default specials are ON PAR with their other options?"

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

1111 is quite a good set with a lot of characters. It's what you'll see Diddy run pretty much always, is probably Ness's best build, is a pretty solid set for Sheik (though I think the consensus is that 1211 is somewhat better it depends on match-up and isn't a huge deal anyway), and you'll see it a lot on Jigglypuff though 1121 is probably very slightly better (it's a very small optimization to use Hyper Voice over Sing: both are near useless). While I prefer other sets and personally would only pick 1111 with the aforementioned 4, 1111 is strongly viable for Bowser Jr., (Dark) Pit, Marth/Lucina, Duck Hunt, Lucario, Charizard, Greninja, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Mega Man, and Sonic.

I originally was ordering in order of my beliefs on set quality which wasn't going to be perfect but would require on average less scrolling for better builds (and yes, just picking the top one will give you something pretty good in general). The downside is that updating sets is already a burden on people and asking them to re-arrange their sets is asking them to do a lot of work for very questionable gains. So if I have to drop out a lot of sets, I'll be trying to put new ones in in rough quality order, but if a set is already in place, I'm not going to be moving it since that would be an unreasonable inconvenience to impose on people using this system. If you're trying to learn a character, I'd advise taking advantage of the 2222 and 3333 options to just toy with every custom move, figure out what kind of build suits you as a player, stay familiar with the other options, and just let yourself refine your selections with time.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't think order is important, but significantly prefer numerical order. It makes it easiest to locate a set and/or determine if it exists on a setup.

 

[kenniky]

Any reason why 3113Wide is listed twice for Gunner?

 

[Raijinken]

I've generally been telling friends that "the top one is probably the most-used one, but pick 2s or 3s for experimenting. If you can't find one here that's the same as what you want, we'll make you one." It's worked pretty well for getting them to try new custom sets.

Any reason why 3113Wide is listed twice for Gunner?

And I still have no idea why 3113W is listed on Gunner. I've also heard that there's been less and less concern for size differences on all of the Miis.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Any reason why 3113Wide is listed twice for Gunner?

This is an old flaw in the list that I had kept overlooking when it came time to actually make changes. Since obviously it being listed twice wasn't doing anyone any particular favors (though it wasn't hurting either), the redundant second copy has now been removed.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm disapointed there isn't a 23x2 set-up for Mii Swordfighter, or really any set-up with Light Shuriken and/or Reversal Slash.

 

[Raijinken]

Even more than before, I now love the Danger Wrap.

Spoiler

Still not Crash Bomber levels of utility or harassment, but a 26 damage anti-air/hard read is no joke.

 

[digiholic]

Even more than before, I now love the Danger Wrap.

Spoiler

Still not Crash Bomber levels of utility or harassment, but a 26 damage anti-air/hard read is no joke.

How?!?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How?!?

If you land on the same frame it comes out, a second one comes out because of some quirk in the air-to-ground landing coding.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It was briefly discussed in Doc boards but I believe you should add to his mandatory sets with 2311. It's incredibly useful and Doc Tornado on its own is such a good move in some MUs along with Fast Capsule that I no scare of less good recovery in favor of being a priority monster and killing at absurdly low %s if you recover wrong.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

2311 is a set on Doc's list. I agree that it's a quality set.

I think right now people are in full APEX mode so customs aren't getting a lot of press. There's still a lot of support for them underlying and I expect things to seriously pick up after APEX as a lot of regions are using it as a turning point for "getting serious" and getting stuff figured out (as well as starting up proper regional tournaments, not just the "game is new" locals that have been a big thing in a lot of places). I think we're going to need to ramp up visibility after APEX passes, make customs as clear/simple as possible for both TOs and players, make it simple/easy for TOs to write quality rulesets that are practical and include customs, and try to give TOs who give customs a shot the best visibility they can get for their efforts and the players involved the best forum they can have to discuss their experiences. With EVO announcing smash 4 but not announcing the ruleset (and while no one knows what they do they definitely have a long history of being fairly liberal), I think a lot of stuff is still up in the air for the future of this game and the potential of the custom system will probably hang heavily on what happens in February and March as the community settles down on stuff. Anyone who has any ideas or work on their ends that could help in this regard I'd definitely encourage, just something for you guys to think about for the next few weeks.

I'm pretty satisfied with these sets for the most part (I'm a little unsure about a few excluded moves like MM up-3, DK down-2, and Jr. side-3) and like I said don't want to keep changing the sets arbitrarily and imposing undue burdens on those using the system. The one area I do have big concerns are Mii Fighters though. Mii Brawler running Ultimate Uppercut (either 2122 or 2132) seems likely pretty viable and I just overlooked that at the time. Mii sizes I feel are really an underhandled topic. san's research seems to strongly indicate the "wide" builds used here pretty much suck, and while the small Miis "feel" better, I'm not sure they really are. When I was toying with default size Brawler vs min size it sure felt more like a trade-off and less like small being better (the default had longer limbs and just enough extra power/weight to matter), and I kinda wonder if the range actually comes from height and not width which might make the best Miis tall instead of wide? Is big in every way even that bad? Miis have pretty much infinite slots due to how they work, and I'll honestly just admit to neglecting them a lot since they're a big complication versus the other perceived to me to be the more important 48 characters. In a customs environment, we need to be really sure what the Mii Fighter rules would even be and then further very precisely what kinds of sizes are actually best in a deeper and more explored way and not in the cursory way they have thus far been handled which I can claim significant responsibility for. Anyone using this can just add more Miis to their load-outs with no real burden so I feel like we can discuss this and move it forward without the project needing to impose extra burdens of rebuilding sets; what is the serious deal with Miis and in what ways do the current lists for them fail?

 

[mimgrim]

Have you considered adding in a BYOC (bring your own character) clause just for clarity?

As for Miis. It really depends. Do you want max mobility but for the sacrifice of range and a little bit of power or do you want range and power for the sacrifice of mobility? Personally I prefer the max mobility and thus go short. And Yea skinny is the better way go instead of fat because fat is just a slower version with very little extra kill power and survivability.

I don't have much to say on custom moves as the character I am most interested in after Gunner, and the character I will probably main currently until customization starts getting looked at better and then become my sub when I can play Gunner like I want, is Charizard and 1313 is already listed so I am happy with that. The only other thin is that i play with 3222 moveset on Gunner and it's sad not seeing it up there but I can just bring that myself so it's not a big deal.

 

[Krysco]

I read through this entire thread and I've got some points/questions when it comes to a few characters just because I'm in the minority for them.


Why do people like Explosive Blaster but not Burst Blaster? I get the uses behind default blaster like how it can possibly gimp and stops characters like Samus and Robin from charging certain moves but what use does Explosive have? I like Burst against opponents that don't have charging moves and aren't laughably gimpable since it gives me a means of getting free damage from afar and forces an approach. The rate it fires at and the lack of flinching makes people more inclined to approach and just take a few shots than shield the one shot you'll likely fire with default. Burst isn't super spammable and the damage isn't ridiculous but it's something. Explosive on the other hand I have no idea what use it has. It's short ranged and feels too laggy to follow up on. Maybe I'm just wrong on that last part. Does anyone have a video or even just a combo or follow up I could try with it?


This seems/seemed to be the character AA was having the most trouble with due to lack of replies. I use him though my personal favourite set up is 1213. I use the default cannon since I feel all 3 options are too slow and if any of them are to hit I'd rather it be the one that does more damage. I love Koopa Drift for its recovery and don't mind the lack of combos though I do also use default kart from time to time. I've yet to use side-3 although it's combo potential and super armor do catch my attention. I use Abandon Ship to maximize my recovery though I've yet to use it or any of it's variants offensively so I need more testing with them, namely up-1 and up-2. Big Mecha is the one I feel has the most potential use. 2 arcs way too high and 1 would be good if it wasn't so easy to grab. Plus the damage and knockback of the big Mecha is nice.

(and to a point )
Marth is the big one for me when it comes to being in the minority. My favourite setup is 3121. I love the offensive abilities of Crescant Slash (namely out of fthrow). It's extra damage that Marth is sorely lacking in this game from his throws and it ko's!...which is another thing lacking in this game for default Marth, or at least with Dolphin Slash. Dancing Blade is hands down the best side and I don't really care for counter. I guess in theory down-2 is the best since if you're gonna try countering you mayaswell have as many frames as possible for it but default has kill potential. Dashing Assault over Shield Breaker since it goes far without needing charging and seems to have nice shield poking capabilities. To further my point with Marth I've got a video of my cousin and I having a Marth ditto with customs:

Now my cousin and I are by no means experts with the character but I feel this video shows off Crescant Slashes good and bad points quite well. 2 of my ko's are from it and a good amount of damage too. Maybe I just play Marth too differently from most others? I don't care too much about the vertical recovery loss when I get additional damage and an extra ko move, plus 3121 gives Marth a pretty good horizontal recovery.

tl;dr why is there love for Explosive Blaster but not Burst? 1213 for Jr. and 3121 for Marth (and Lucina) with video to boot =P.

 

[ぱみゅ]

IMO, Marth could go with either way with Crescent Slash or Dolphin Jump (matchup dependent? maybe just player comfort?)
31xx (because I also like Normal and Iai Counters) is the set I'd choose.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Honestly as far as I could tell the bottom two sets on Falco were just the least bad options of what was left and that you'd pretty much always run 11XX with the Xs not being defaults but both customs on both moves being viable. The Falco board suggested that particular neutral special custom as the least bad of what was left and I just deferred; I have no strong opinion there and definitely can't defend Explosive Blaster for you.

I appreciate the opinion on Jr. I have 2213 on him right now which is probably mostly interchangeable with 1213 (I've seen reasonable arguments for all three neutral variations, almost all prefaced with "it doesn't really matter but..."). X213 definitely seems like a set that people would want to use on him; I'm happy to have it included.

I especially appreciate the Marth opinion and video; that showed a lot of good stuff with Crescent Slash that I hadn't really seen or thought about. Your second stock death kinda showed the downsides (though I think in part you just messed up by overcharging that Dashing Assault), but Crescent Slash really did do a ton of work for you and definitely seemed to make sense for you to bring given how you were using it. Videos like that are definitely among the most helpful things that could be posted; it not only made your point about the custom move better than words could have but is a pretty cool thing for people to look at and see the interesting gameplay.

 

[Krysco]

Honestly as far as I could tell the bottom two sets on Falco were just the least bad options of what was left and that you'd pretty much always run 11XX with the Xs not being defaults but both customs on both moves being viable. The Falco board suggested that particular neutral special custom as the least bad of what was left and I just deferred; I have no strong opinion there and definitely can't defend Explosive Blaster for you.

I appreciate the opinion on Jr. I have 2213 on him right now which is probably mostly interchangeable with 1213 (I've seen reasonable arguments for all three neutral variations, almost all prefaced with "it doesn't really matter but..."). X213 definitely seems like a set that people would want to use on him; I'm happy to have it included.

I especially appreciate the Marth opinion and video; that showed a lot of good stuff with Crescent Slash that I hadn't really seen or thought about. Your second stock death kinda showed the downsides (though I think in part you just messed up by overcharging that Dashing Assault), but Crescent Slash really did do a ton of work for you and definitely seemed to make sense for you to bring given how you were using it. Videos like that are definitely among the most helpful things that could be posted; it not only made your point about the custom move better than words could have but is a pretty cool thing for people to look at and see the interesting gameplay.

Glad to help any way I can I've been aware of this project for a little while and viewed each thread about it in every character thread to try and understand how best to make use of customs for characters I use and what to look out for from other characters. I only voiced my opinion in a few of them but I believe by the time I had, this thread was already made.

As for the video, like I said I'm no expert =P. A few things of interest I personally find with that video are that Crescant Slash attacks through the stage much like Dolphin Slash but has more power making returning to the ledge safer. The video also shows what is probably the lowest one can recover from with Crescant Slash and even then that was because of the stage having walls. The last thing that catches my attention is how not only do I fthrow > Crescant Slash but also fthrow > run > Crescant Slash. Idk if that's DIable or if it can be dodged or if it's a true combo but if it is it's clearly a threatening one.

I guess in the end it all comes down to how the player feels with Marth. Dolphin Slash gives you what is probably the best OoS option along with a good vertical recovery. Crescant gives you damage, a ko move, a decent horizontal recovery and I'm not sure how good of an OoS option but surely better than Jump and Jump itself gives you the greatest vertical recovery allowing for deep edgeguards. I'm a much more grounded Marth player so I don't mind the lack of deep edgeguarding when my ground game is so strong.

 

[Raijinken]

I've been a Marth main for ages, and while I've typically leaned toward just Dashing Assault (and sometimes Iai Counter), I'll start giving Crescent Slash some runs and see what I think of it. His recovery is already pretty sub-par for this game, but if the horizontal gain helps me more than the vertical loss hurts me, I might be convinced. Either way, I've not been convinced at all of Dolphin Jump's merits when I've tried it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As somebody who doesn't use Marth really, I do think that Crescent Slash is probably deserving of at least one slot, if not two on his list. From what I've seen/read, he needs reliable damage and kill options badly, possibly more than he needs his recovery distance.

In my theorycraft land, because Dancing Blade doesn't combo properly anyways, one could argue using Heavy Dancing Blade instead: you're only ever going to use the first hit, at least make it have some punch behind it. Though apparently there is some potential in aerial Dancing Blade hit 1 so *shrugs*.

 

[Raijinken]

As somebody who doesn't use Marth really, I do think that Crescent Slash is probably deserving of at least one slot, if not two on his list. From what I've seen/read, he needs reliable damage and kill options badly, possibly more than he needs his recovery distance.

In my theorycraft land, because Dancing Blade doesn't combo properly anyways, one could argue using Heavy Dancing Blade instead: you're only ever going to use the first hit, at least make it have some punch behind it. Though apparently there is some potential in aerial Dancing Blade hit 1 so *shrugs*.

Fun as Heavy Blade is, Dancing Blade works reasonably against large opponents, and as you mentioned, in midair. I don't think Heavy Blade is useless (not like Easy Blade or whatever they call it), but I'd need to experiment with it more to make a solid call on it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

(not like Easy Blade or whatever they call it)

Effortless Blade.

I think knowing that without having to look it up says some less-than-kind things about me.

 

[GUIGUI]

Out of curiosity, when is it likely EVO release its ruleset and who can be contacted to inform EVO custom are really requested?

 

[Raijinken]

Effortless Blade.

I think knowing that without having to look it up says some less-than-kind things about me.

I mean, I've got most of the ones on characters I use memorized. I guess I just overrode the name with a nickname reflecting my current contempt for the move.

 

[chaosmasterro]

So I just got the game two weeks ago and it took me four days to grind out all of the custom moves for all the characters. My save file is down for the cause.

 

[thehard]

I wrote something about this project and customs in general here, if you'd like to read: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2t6snk/custom_moves_at_evo_and_beyond_for_the_good_of/

 

[hey_there]

@ Amazing Ampharos Luigi's customs need to have more sets with the neutral-3 (Iceballs). After @DunnoBro posted about iceballs and how Boss uses them in the Luigi custom move board, I actually decided to try them out at a get together. And they are amazing. So amazing that I can't imagine ever not running them if customs are turned on. They control large amounts of space and at 42+% the freezing starts kicking in which sets up for aerial KOs and for juggling in general. They're not as great for poking as the default, but the utility in controlling space, setting up KOs, frame traping, approaching, and edge guarding is completely worth it.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Amazing Ampharos Luigi's customs need to have more sets with the neutral-3 (Iceballs). After @DunnoBro posted about iceballs and how Boss uses them in the Luigi custom move board, I actually decided to try them out at a get together. And they are amazing. So amazing that I can't imagine ever not running them if customs are turned on. They control large amounts of space and at 42+% the freezing starts kicking in which sets up for aerial KOs and for juggling in general. They're not as great for poking as the default, but the utility in controlling space, setting up KOs, frame traping, approaching, and edge guarding is completely worth it.

I agree with this. I started using Iceballs on Luigi, and don't plan on going back. Their slow speed can also screw up rolls and other attempted approaches, at least against some of my friends.

 

[Shog]

How in the holy monkey that DK is is Hot Slap NOT considered for Down B? (also known as Down B 2)
It is one of the most consistent, safe aerial moves I have ever used on DK, due to range, effectivness in air, and still being a decent attack on ground. Didn't DK Mains atleast try it out?

 

[Krysco]

I suppose I should mention that although I love Crescant Slash, there are times when I won't use it, namely if I know or think I'm going to Halberd, Delfino, Wuhu, Skyloft and any other semi-soft platform stage I'm forgetting. Crescant Slash more times than not decides to go past the ledge and through the stage causing me to sd. This can happen with Dolphin Slash and Jump too but since you're going up you'll either fall onto the stage, onto the ledge or get punished but odds are you won't sd (unless you hold down for some reason). Regardless, I feel a 3121 set should be available if not now then when the list next gets updated (which is happening this spring or summer correct?). I don't know what set would go though, maybe one of the Lai Counter sets (specifically 1113) although I'm bias in that I never use it so I don't know its potential or utility.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hot Slap is down-3 on DK. 1133 is a DK set in the project. My preferred DK build uses down-2 which is Focused Slap, a custom I am apparently pretty alone in loving but I deferred to the greater wisdom of the DK mains on that one.

Ice Balls were super unpopular last we checked in with team Luigi; while I do want to keep some consistency in the sets for now, they're definitely an interesting move. 3311 is at least already set; is that the best Ice Balls set?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Amazing Ampharos are you keeping track of these suggested changes anywhere for the next update? Actually, for that matter, how will you decide which sets are worth adding over others down the line?

(Also if you could check your PMs I'd appreciate that.)

 

[Raijinken]

I suppose I should mention that although I love Crescant Slash, there are times when I won't use it, namely if I know or think I'm going to Halberd, Delfino, Wuhu, Skyloft and any other semi-soft platform stage I'm forgetting. Crescant Slash more times than not decides to go past the ledge and through the stage causing me to sd. This can happen with Dolphin Slash and Jump too but since you're going up you'll either fall onto the stage, onto the ledge or get punished but odds are you won't sd (unless you hold down for some reason). Regardless, I feel a 3121 set should be available if not now then when the list next gets updated (which is happening this spring or summer correct?). I don't know what set would go though, maybe one of the Lai Counter sets (specifically 1113) although I'm bias in that I never use it so I don't know its potential or utility.

As Iai Counter causes you to move, it can be used as a recovery against edgeguard-happy opponents (like Little Mac's, but a bit more valid since Marth's recovery is non-negligible while subpar).

Hot Slap is down-3 on DK. 1133 is a DK set in the project. My preferred DK build uses down-2 which is Focused Slap, a custom I am apparently pretty alone in loving but I deferred to the greater wisdom of the DK mains on that one.

Ice Balls were super unpopular last we checked in with team Luigi; while I do want to keep some consistency in the sets for now, they're definitely an interesting move. 3311 is at least already set; is that the best Ice Balls set?

Personally, I just made a 3111 set for Luigi earlier since I'm not presently a fan of Quick Missile.