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Pretty much any set gets better with Iceball. 3311 is fine, but 3111 or 3211 would probably be good over one of the current builds like 1211. I've seen other people suggest Iceball goes well with Burial Header so 3231 might be better than 1231. I don't personally have experience using that build, but I can't imagine any benefit that Fireball would have over Iceball. I'm confidant they're one of the best projectiles in the game.
Range, projectile speed, and flinch at low percents are all better than the Iceball.
You should read the Ganondorf thread for their thoughts on all these moves.
I'm kinda surprised Flame Wave (side-2) gets no love. I know the other two side specials are really good but I feel Flame Wave is good in its own right. It's slow both on start up and ending lag and it's short ranged but it's a koing command grab that does 18% when fresh (at least in training). Sounds pretty tempting to me given Ganon's lack of shield pressure (although Flame Chain accomplishes this as well) and the fact that it gives him a killing 'throw' of sorts. I especially feel that people will warm up to it more (or just strictly use Flame Chain) once the majority of people learn how to tech Gerudo. Even with being teched, Gerudo is still useful but once it becomes common I feel Gerudo will become less popular (doesn't help that aerial Gerudo can be punished when landed). Both up variants are good with Fists having hitboxes rather than grab ones (yes I'm aware of the hitbox at the end of Dive) and Vault covering the most distance. Wizard's Foot and Dropkick are both obviously useful, matchup dependent which one is more important...can't think of any benefit Assault provides. Neutral I'm not sure. Punch has super armor but it's so slow and short ranged that you won't ever be trading blows with it. Blade is slow and has no super armor but at least has range...seems too slow to use though. Thrust is fast enough to possibly be used but in any circumstance where you can use Thrust why not use something else? Guess the point I'm getting at is Ganon's current sets are fine but I feel Flame Wave deserves at least one slot (not sure over what though).
Power Vision adds an absurd amount of power to his counter. Greninja's "powerful" counter doesn't do much more damage, actually kills later iirc, and has horrid end lag that prevents combos off of it. I can't speak for Ike.
I prefer default Monado Arts so I can correct any mistakes I may make while selecting and I get a nice duration for the buff. The counters don't matter to me but every set has Power Vision so I'm guessing it's good? Seems odd since Ike and Greninja's powerful counters aren't used.
Distant Nosferatu does poor damage and its healing doesn't scale with your percentage like the default does. Distant Nosferatu and Goetia are also hellishly slow (both grab on frame 29; Nosferatu is frame 16), like, why-would-you-use-this slow.
And speaking of Robin him/herself I ask why Distant Nosferatu is on no sets? With Thunder and Thunder+ Arcthunder > Distant Nosferatu appears inescapable given the proper spacing. Can't even shield the Arcthunder since it holds you in shield allowing the grab to pull off. You get free healing for it and it does 24% from 0% (This was tested on a cpu in training so it may be less with mashing and the percents could change as percent goes up). Compare that to one Goetia doing 19% and doing no healing. Problems with this however are having to have an Arcthunder ready, it not working with Speed Thunder, the spacing being specific and the fact that Robin has other options after landing an Arcthunder. You also can't get Norferatu from the back this way. However, even without Arcthunder or with Speed Thunder it gives the opponent another reason to fear being far(ish) away from Robin. It's not like people often fear Nosferatu or Goetia up close anyways.
I had read the thread before and just read the newer posts and they seemed unable to agree on Blade vs Thrust (seem leaning towards Blade though) though I was unaware of Blade's armor. Kinda sucks how characters like Ganon have moves that are flat out bad or at least subpar even with customs so I guess finding out the best neutral hardly matters :/.
For Ganondorf, Blade also does absurd shield damage. Honestly haven't compared it to regular Warlock Punch, but Blade rivals Shield Breaker.
Well this is news to me.
I'm guessing the Goetia sets are for doubles or something due to the suction+huge grabbox.
Meteor Bombs are just that much better than giant bombs. Not sure on Back Slash, honestly, it's not much of a reliable attack so going for armor makes sense to me. No opinion yet on Flame Wave, I feel like Dorf has enough other killing choices so far.
There's a thought. Can Goetia grab both opponents in doubles at once?
Welp, there goes what would have been a really good reason to use it.
In Goetia's defense, ICs basically countered all grabs anyway.
Only exception I can think of was Ike. He could safely Grab -> Pummel once -> Bthrow them. I can't think of any other grabs in Brawl that were that quick and moved the grabber away from the initial start position.
While I personally love Arcfire+, its payoff isn't nearly as high as Firewall's. I do still prefer Arcfire+ over default, but not by much.
Great news!
This is excellent news.
I don't understand. Why?
Power Vision stales faster, which is supposed to be its drawback. Which is why the speed drop is so minimal. If you are only barely within reach of the counter and using a low-endlag move, you do have a shot at shielding, which is more than can be said for the default, at least.
All variants of Vision are unblockable, though.
Dodging Shulk's is a lot like dodging Marth's. It's all about being at the furthest distance or at a side/above him.
Lucario's and Greninjas also carry a risk, and depending on how disjointed of a hitbox you hit Shulk with (and thus, how far below), he does still slightly fall and can catch lingering attacks during Vision.
In most cases in which I land a counter, the move is strong enough that the counter scaling will outdo any regular followup I could do. But that may just be because I haven't played much Ike lately.
Range and projectile speed being better is purely subjective. It depends on what function your projectile is serving. I would argue in this case that Luigi's fireball is less harassment and poking based than it is set up based. Luigi wants to set up grabs for crazy damage, he doesn't want to sit back and get as many fireballs off as possible. Seriously, try that strategy. Any good player will run up and shield for a free punish.
Fair. I should have worded it as "higher/longer" instead of better. I do feel like the Fireball causes more hitstun (which is what I meant by flinch, sometimes I forget to translate terms I used growing up into their standard equivalents), but I've not used Luigi that much and could very well be wrong.
