Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah the thing is if ONE player can change their customs set, the other easily can. And with the proposal of this project all the optimal and functional sets will be available and people SHOULD be training with at least one of them regardless of if default is their preference or not (unless their char need not use customs) to be ready in advance.

 

[Azriel Auxifur]

Yea that's understandable, I was going by with all the feedback people has been giving me when I started spreading customs around using the set. Currently people think it's unfair to have customs build to counter their specific character but I understand you need to be ready in advance

 

[Raijinken]

Constantly changing a character's load out to your favor isn't exactly fair to those who have just rather stick to the default set. Plus changing sets eliminates the person ability to counter you effectively in a 2/3 set. I understand that customs are there to make the fight easier but coming in with a couple of sets to help make the competition easier isn't exactly fair and so far the feedback I collected in my area that's a big concern. Customs should be treated like a "default character" you run with it and you overcome any sort of disadvantages that comes with running that type of character. Yes, the possibility of someone running the best set to counter the main threat "will be there" but that's normal when it comes to these sort of things. UMvsC does it, Skullgirls does it too but as the meta develop people will still find a way to make unconventional sets work and you have to factor in people who just play characters with preference and those that will run the specific set they like and enjoy.

As for the 12/10 character slot thing...well my only answer to that is having 3ds transfer legal and the process should be treated similar to how people bring arcade sticks and test buttons out. It's a slight hassle but everyone does and it's pretty quick.

As for communicating with the TO stuff like that should be put in the tournament's rules and if anyone is bringing a "new player" they should be made aware that they will have to communicate with the tournament organizer who "of course" will be on site...so it's not that hard to do. Plus if you have multiple people you like to use customize obviously you will have some idea of what you will be using prior to the competition considering many people like to show up early to do friendlies and socialize before people get serious.

I don't see an issue with not allowing certain moves since some moves do give a certain character a complete powerspike and therefore becomes the new threat instead but as the custom move meta develops it's easier to have some freedom with a some form of regulation to at least give us some ground on how to "balance it out them out"

I've yet to see any powerspike that puts a character above default Diddy and Sheik, personally. Not even customs on other high-tier characters. Palutena gets a huge spike, but it still just makes her thoroughly fine and still not Diddy- or Sheik-level.

If a player wants to stick with a default set to their own disadvantage, they're more than welcome to. Likewise if a player wants to pick Mii Swordfighter to their own disadvantage, they're welcome to. And if they want to deliberately use non-optimal customs, they're welcome to. It shouldn't be an enforced rule.

The point of customs, really, amounts to "balancing it out". Locking into a loadout (just like locking into a character) dictates that you'll have certain counters that are extremely difficult to play around. No amount of counterpicking on customs will make Mac a legitimate threat to Sheik or Diddy. But he should be given the opportunity to react and give himself the best chance possible, just like his opponent should be able to.

Yea that's understandable, I was going by with all the feedback people has been giving me when I started spreading customs around using the set. Currently people think it's unfair to have customs build to counter their specific character but I understand you need to be ready in advance

That's basically paranoia and fear of usurpation (honestly, I believe that's a source of anti-custom sentiment from Diddy players. His benefits are minimal, if not zero, and his opponents become far more threatening). It's a valid concern, but it's of the same validity as any player who uses any low-tier character complaining about a high-tier character. Or a Samus/Megaman player complaining about every Villager/Fox player.

 

[Flamecircle]

The only powerspike I fear is Rosalina's shooting star bit.

Falco dropped from top tier basically just because he lost his ridiculous laser. Giving that same ridiculous laser to an ALREADY top tier character...

Probably disgusting.


On a side note, I keep hearing people talk about Shocking cape and Zigzag can, but I can't find out why people think they are good. Can someone explain?

 

[popsofctown]

The only powerspike I fear is Rosalina's shooting star bit.

Falco dropped from top tier basically just because he lost his ridiculous laser. Giving that same ridiculous laser to an ALREADY top tier character...

Probably disgusting.


On a side note, I keep hearing people talk about Shocking cape and Zigzag can, but I can't find out why people think they are good. Can someone explain?

You have an incredibly incomplete understanding of what made Brawl Falco good, and that's why your fear is exaggerated.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The only powerspike I fear is Rosalina's shooting star bit.

Falco dropped from top tier basically just because he lost his ridiculous laser. Giving that same ridiculous laser to an ALREADY top tier character...

Probably disgusting.


On a side note, I keep hearing people talk about Shocking cape and Zigzag can, but I can't find out why people think they are good. Can someone explain?

On the plus side, there will be tons of new anti-Luma tech thanks to customs, as @ Thinkaman mentioned elsewhere.

Shocking Cape is good because it gives Mario a much-needed "replacement Fair" that does 11% damage and has excellent knockback, which has a larger hitbox than his Fair and sends the opponent sideways instead of down. It also comes out faster than Fsmash, which allows it to punish opponents in situations that Fsmash would be too slow (although it has less knockback than Fsmash). Also, Shocking Cape is an anti-Luma move, so there's that lol

Zigzag Can goes back and forth each time Duck Hunt shoots it, which opens up a LOT of potential for space control and mindgames. Not to mention I think it can combo into itself if you time/space the shots just right. But I don't play Duck Hunt too much so I am not 100% certain of his stuff.

 

[DunnoBro]

To try and calm fears about customs ruining the games balance, a recent customs tournament had a rather unexpected character lineup in the top 3. (According to seagull joe who i talked to at xanadu, forgot to ask him the name of it)

3rd place, Kirby (MikeKirby)
2nd place, Megaman (Ninjalink)

Hey, great right? Generally ignored characters making a strong showing. Oh, but wait.

1st place, Diddy (Jtails)

Good characters and good players who use them are still good characters and good players. So far customs don't seem to change that, they just make more good characters available. I also personally find it refreshing that each of these players are character loyalists, and not explicitly exploiting any sort of perceived cheese.

The only powerspike I fear is Rosalina's shooting star bit.

Falco dropped from top tier basically just because he lost his ridiculous laser. Giving that same ridiculous laser to an ALREADY top tier character...

Probably disgusting.


On a side note, I keep hearing people talk about Shocking cape and Zigzag can, but I can't find out why people think they are good. Can someone explain?

Falco gains some decent movement and zoning options, along with some really annoying edgeguarding ability. (that bair on a character with the ability to go deep is scary)

Shocking cape is liked because mario doesn't have a fast, meaty, high priority fair or other move with range to put out in front of him. Shocking cape enables him to punish air dodges, land, edgeguard, and overall give him kind of a slightly worse but different bair for use in front of him.

At least what I heard from 2fast, Boss, and GIMR.

As for Zigzag, it's just a much more radical and difficult to deal with tool. It doesn't explode on shield or contact, it just hits and keeps going, even comboing into itself.

With regular can, if you try to pressure someone and fail, it hits their shield and the can is gone, anyone with any type of decent dash can close the distance and disallow DHD to get out another can.

Zigzag however, can pressure for free. It can hit a shield, then return. It's also much faster, kills better, does more damage in the long run, combos better, and frame traps for grabs (which btw it enables grab combos)

The only downside is that DHD can't camp behind it very effectively. But instead it forces approaches with huge frame advantages, and damage potential.

A recent discovery was that if you frame trap with it so the can is inside their shield when you grab them, and just mash the can, it will do 20-40% due to the starting hits being so low in their hurtbox. (normally when it hits, it hits high up, disallowing it to hit too often)

 

[Noa.]

A recent discovery was that if you frame trap with it so the can is inside their shield when you grab them, and just mash the can, it will do 20-40% due to the starting hits being so low in their hurtbox. (normally when it hits, it hits high up, disallowing it to hit too often)

You've mentioned this before but I have trouble understanding it. Do you have a video of it?

 

[DunnoBro]

You've mentioned this before but I have trouble understanding it. Do you have a video of it?

Discovered it on monday and kind of hard to record on weekdays... Will definitely get to it soon, though.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sounds to me like it's positioning the can in such a way that the Zapper shots rack up free damage in the middle of a grab.

DHD is devious.

Smooth Criminal

 

[DunnoBro]

It's definitely reminiscent of ice climbers. And default gunmen also frametraps for grabs (and creates a snare effect when used with zigzag.)

Even if they're not in the can, if the can is anywhere on the stage, you can throw them into it and it will often try the combo from there or hit them back into you. The default can often doesn't go high enough or the fact has to go away from you to get higher makes it not work a lot.

Also, the more vertical knockback makes it kill and combo better, despite not technically being any more than default. It's just not splitting up the distance by kind of auto-DIing for them by doing diagonal.

And a theory of mine is that due to how far away zigzag does it's stuff, the fact DHD can shoot it while in his shield is a huge troll. Because if you grab him, you're more stationary and dedicated, and the can has the perfect trajectory from his starting position to break him out (like, it literally comes back to RIGHT in front of him on the first loop. Where someone would be if they grabbed him) and let him convert your grab into his own combo. And if you hit his shield, he'll just shield grab and throw you into the can.

I've had little time to practice it against good players, i did it a little reflexively, but very little on purpose. I actually shot the can while in shield very little because default DHD generally doesn't need to since it's usually so close and protects him, so it's better to prepare to throw out another projectile. But whenever I made the conscious effort to shield, people got verrry salty.

 

[Flamecircle]

To try and calm fears about customs ruining the games balance, a recent customs tournament had a rather unexpected character lineup in the top 3. (According to seagull joe who i talked to at xanadu, forgot to ask him the name of it)

3rd place, Kirby (MikeKirby)
2nd place, Megaman (Ninjalink)

Hey, great right? Generally ignored characters making a strong showing. Oh, but wait.

1st place, Diddy (Jtails)

Good characters and good players who use them are still good characters and good players. So far customs don't seem to change that, they just make more good characters available. I also personally find it refreshing that each of these players are character loyalists, and not explicitly exploiting any sort of perceived cheese.



Falco gains some decent movement and zoning options, along with some really annoying edgeguarding ability. (that bair on a character with the ability to go deep is scary)

Shocking cape is liked because mario doesn't have a fast, meaty, high priority fair or other move with range to put out in front of him. Shocking cape enables him to punish air dodges, land, edgeguard, and overall give him kind of a slightly worse but different bair for use in front of him.

At least what I heard from 2fast, Boss, and GIMR.

As for Zigzag, it's just a much more radical and difficult to deal with tool. It doesn't explode on shield or contact, it just hits and keeps going, even comboing into itself.

With regular can, if you try to pressure someone and fail, it hits their shield and the can is gone, anyone with any type of decent dash can close the distance and disallow DHD to get out another can.

Zigzag however, can pressure for free. It can hit a shield, then return. It's also much faster, kills better, does more damage in the long run, combos better, and frame traps for grabs (which btw it enables grab combos)

The only downside is that DHD can't camp behind it very effectively. But instead it forces approaches with huge frame advantages, and damage potential.

A recent discovery was that if you frame trap with it so the can is inside their shield when you grab them, and just mash the can, it will do 20-40% due to the starting hits being so low in their hurtbox. (normally when it hits, it hits high up, disallowing it to hit too often)

Interesting stuff. The 20-40% sounds cool. Sounds difficult to set up though, but forces other options which is good.

Any other customs people are hailing as "broken" (the good kind) that aren't as obvious as Ganon's customs, Ike's close combat, all of Palutena, and thunderwave?

 

[DunnoBro]

Interesting stuff. The 20-40% sounds cool. Sounds difficult to set up though, but forces other options which is good.

Any other customs people are hailing as "broken" (the good kind) that aren't as obvious as Ganon's customs, Ike's close combat, all of Palutena, and thunderwave?

Xanadu players seem to hype big fireballs/pills over fast ones. Due to their frametrapping/comboing nature. I'm hesitant to agree, but people honestly were getting me with big fireball > fair spike last night.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The only powerspike I fear is Rosalina's shooting star bit.

Falco dropped from top tier basically just because he lost his ridiculous laser. Giving that same ridiculous laser to an ALREADY top tier character...

Probably disgusting.


On a side note, I keep hearing people talk about Shocking cape and Zigzag can, but I can't find out why people think they are good. Can someone explain?

Shooting Star Bit is not anywhere near as good as Falco's old laser (Falco also dropped for a lot more reasons than that, but that's aside the point). It's probably not as obvious if you don't main Rosalina what the downsides of SSB are, but it has several:

-Both Rosalina and Luma must be completely free and non-committed to execute the move.
-Luma's position locks early in the start-up.
-Under no condition other than being hit is either character allowed to move before the animation finishes.
-The rate of fire is pretty low.
-The projectile does low hitstun and shieldstun.
-The projectile is very narrow and can clash or being outprioritized by other moves.

What this means is this. At close range SSB is almost always a huge risk; it's just not a very safe move at all. If you use it while jumping, Luma locks in position too high up and shoots over people's heads. If you want to shoot someone from the air, you have to move yourself to where they are before they get there, fire in advance, and intercept this which is a lot more predictable and is also uniquely difficult with Rosalina's extremely floaty physics. Relying on both characters means that, if you have either of the two under pressure, you can prevent the move from being used which is decisively not the case for her normals. Even against slow characters it really can't zone since they block one and then can take huge amounts of ground before they'd have to block another no matter what pattern of gameplay Rosalina is pursuing. Shooting Star Bit is a good move mostly because it makes camping Rosalina a non-real strategy; if you just try to stay away from Rosalina indefinitely this move makes problems for you though good projectile characters very much can win projectile wars against it (projectile warring Rosalina gets really complicated due to Gravitational Pull as well, but characters like Link and Mega Man who can mix their projectiles with their direct attacks can easily work around everything). Against anyone who uses a strategy that involves actually pressuring Rosalina, it's a nice occasional harassment move and a way to tack 4% damage in a few situations. It's nothing like Falco's old laser that locked down slow characters completely, automatically won all projectile wars due to being transcendent, and provided massive amounts of cover to his approaches due to ridiculously favorable behavior when used out of a short hop. The closest moves to Falco's old laser in this game are probably Villager fair/bair and Mii Gunner fair; Shooting Star Bit is just not even close to that level and is probably not even top 20 for good customs in this game.

That being said, I am not suggesting Rosalinas won't use Shooting Star Bit. Default Star Bits is truly a lousy move; I hate having that garbage in my otherwise great moveset, and it's a primary reason I feel like playing non-custom is just playing the gimped versions of characters. Floaty Star Bit is an intriguing move that I think has a lot of potential application, but Shooting Star Bit is a very direct answer to a specific neutral situation and will almost always help me at least a little so I view Floaty Star Bit as a riskier pick though potentially a rewarding one if the Rosalina player is confident in using the slower move.

---

I am not an expert on the other two custom moves you brought up, but I think I can explain Zig-Zag Can. It's mostly a really good spatial control move; against default can the move is nullified as soon as the opponent moves past it which enforces a certain rigidity in Duck Hunt's camp game, but ZZC can hit opponents in any position as long as it is deployed. That means Duck Hunt can deploy Zig-Zag Can and play around it dynamically, using the control it offers to protect himself far more effectively than he can use the default which is important as Duck Hunt has many slow normals and tends to be pretty easy to grab otherwise. ZZC also tends to do more damage when used properly; it doesn't explode on contact, but the gunshots to reposition the can are possible to combo so a skilled DH player will chain hits upon a Zig-Zag Can hit confirm. I seem to have come after other posters talking about this move who know more about Duck Hunt than I, but I definitely see this move as the primary reason to respect Duck Hunt as a character.

 

[Slash67]

Has anyone found an easier method to unlocking custom moves?

 

[DunnoBro]

Has anyone found an easier method to unlocking custom moves?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRIfJYGg8Cc

This is about it imo

 

[GeneralLedge]

Metaknight's Blade Coaster (Up 2) out of Down Throw.

 

[Krysco]

Just made this post in the Custom Moveset thread for Falco but I'll post it here too since there's more activity here.

As someone who uses both default Blaster and Burst but not Explosive I've been wondering something. Would Explosive be the ideal Blaster vs Rosalina? We can't exactly camp her with the other two since Luma either absorbs the shots or GPull nullifies it. I'd imagine GPull nullifies Explosive too but it's used at such close ranges that I doubt it'd happen too often. It goes through Luma which is something the other two don't. For that matter, I'm wondering if any other customs should be used vs Rosa. Both Reflector and Void have uses with the former making her less likely to camp with Shooting Star Bit and the latter sends Luma into tumble and possibly to its death if used near the edge or off stage. I'm not sure which Fire Bird would be best but I'm leaning towards Fast. We can't make too many deep edgeguards against Rosa anyway and the longer the startup of our upb, the easier she can dair us or something else. I would question the Phantasm variants but they are pretty crap. Interesting thing to note is that the initial hitbox of Falco Charge sends Luma into tumble just like Void.

My guess is that 2123 will be our best set vs Rosa and is altogether a decent set since some people altogether like Explosive Blaster. Alternatively, 2121 may be worth considering

Also, in regards to dthrow -> Blade Coaster, it doesn't work at as many percents as default Shuttle Loop does and as the video/gif/vine shows MK ends up off stage afterwards so it'd only be worth using with a stock lead. Sucks too since it reminds me of Marth with his Crescant Slash but Marth has enough air speed to get back to the stage after using Crescant Slash. I could see it having some use to finish off a match on an opponent who is unaware of dthrow -> Blade Coaster but only once really.

 

[Splash Damage]

The duck hunt stage is banned due to amount of time it takes to unlock it.
Final Destination in Melee.

 

[TheASDF]

The duck hunt stage is banned due to amount of time it takes to unlock it.
Final Destination in Melee.

Devil's advocate here, this argument doesn't really work because the time required to unlock those is decidedly far, far less than it is for customs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Devil's advocate here, this argument doesn't really work because the time required to unlock those is decidedly far, far less than it is for customs.

FD was unlocked in Melee by completing event 51. It's not on the same scale as getting all the customs but it's still a not-insignificant amount of time.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Devil's advocate here, this argument doesn't really work because the time required to unlock those is decidedly far, far less than it is for customs.

Not really, if you're only concerned about the customs for the one or two characters you seriously play.

 

[Piford]

FD was unlocked in Melee by completing event 51. It's not on the same scale as getting all the customs but it's still a not-insignificant amount of time.

Congo Jungle, on the other hand, is 1000x harder than getting custom moves. Either you need to be really good at stalling, or get lucky that a bomb doesn't spawn on top of you for the 15 minutes. I definitely got all the custom move I needed to quicker than I unlocked Congo Jungle.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Congo Jungle, on the other hand, is 1000x harder than getting custom moves. Either you need to be really good at stalling, or get lucky that a bomb doesn't spawn on top of you for the 15 minutes. I definitely got all the custom move I needed to quicker than I unlocked Congo Jungle.

I just used DK ground pound for 15 minutes; your odds are pretty good really.

The main problem with the unlocking argument is that it's really fast to unlock any particular customs so you can practice (just do All Star on Hard, can easily get everything for your main in an hour) and there's a solution for tournaments. Unlocking custom moves is dumb, but there does not seem to be any real player on this earth who is actually disadvantaged by this.

 

[TheASDF]

Yeah, I suppose you're right - like I said, just devil's advocate. I've unlocked them all on my 3DS myself. Was mostly thinking from the perspective of having to unlock them all, which took me a little over two months (though granted I wasn't really trying for a while there, and even then that's ample time to experiment before EVO rolls around).

 

[ShortcutButton]

Are these 6 custom sets for each character set in stone? Or will they be constantly updated?

 

[TheASDF]

We're working on expanding the number of sets to 10 for an update around mid-March.

 

[Raijinken]

Are these 6 custom sets for each character set in stone? Or will they be constantly updated?

As the system becomes more widespread, there is always room for adjustment. We're on the second iteration of 6 and are working on the first iteration of 8/10.

 

[Splash Damage]

Devil's advocate here, this argument doesn't really work because the time required to unlock those is decidedly far, far less than it is for customs.

Yeah, that post was supposed to be quoting something very different than what happened, was trying to say something else. I am but a scrub when it comes to working this site lol

 

[Splash Damage]

I was trying to reply to the fact that CEO banned Duck Hunt because it was a stage that was hard to unlock, then said that melee had a much harder stage to unlock. Proooobably should have said that.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Smash 4-Ever 12 is currently on at RushHourSmash, and customs are being utilized.

I'm sure this might have been said before.

 

[thehard]

I was trying to reply to the fact that CEO banned Duck Hunt because it was a stage that was hard to unlock, then said that melee had a much harder stage to unlock. Proooobably should have said that.

Wasn't that a joke?

 

[Swingshift]

I've been following this project from the very beginning, and I've finally been compelled to actually join the board and post for the first time.

I'm not a competitive smash player by any standard, and really have no intention of becoming one, so I have refrained from submitting any opinions on what movesets should be included, because what do I, a filthy item-using casual, know about competitive Sm4sh?

That said, I want to thank everyone involved, especially Amazing Ampharos, for your efforts. When I finally bought the 3ds version (perhaps a month after release), I was surprised by the lack of discussion about custom moves, recommended sets, which customs seemed to support each other, etc. As a casual player, I lacked the knowledge of the finer fundamentals and thus had no real recourse to find this out on my own, and I was lost without guidance from those who were better than me.

(Of course, I probably shouldn't have been surprised, given the perception of the competitive smash community as being notoriously conservative ::hurr durr final destination no items fox only:: )

My early searches on the Internet brought me to Ampharos's threads in the various subforums, and I've been paying attention ever since. What is most amazing and useful to me is the amount of discussion this has opened up. There was practically no discussion anywhere about custom moves, their individual merits, and their uses. And now there is discussion everywhere.

Take Bowser for example. It is clear that 1211 and 1311 are far and away the best sets for almost any matchup, with 3211 and 3311 as alternates. Yet even acknowledging that the other fortresses and bombs are of little competitive value, this project has opened discussion about the merits (and lack thereof) of the other customs in a way that was simply non existent before.

That deserves recognition. So thank you for that.

 

[Swingshift]

Following along my prior post about how this project, though ostensibly for competitive players, helps filthy casuals like me, is there any space to discuss how best to utilize the "lesser" custom moves?

Take my main man Link. Giant bombs are clearly the worst. But in what set would they be best, or rather, what set would make the best possible use of whatever relative advantages they bring?

And I could ask the same about any of the mostly ignored customs. Megaman's Hyper Bombs, Bowser's tripping bomb, Rosa's attacking up-B, etc. I know they are crap competitively, but they each of some merits on their own. Any insight out there about how to utilize those merits?

 

[popsofctown]

You would generally probably want to shore up whatever weakness is considered to be the reason the move is bad. If you take slip bomb, shore up your kill power with side1 or 2 probably. If you take giant bombs, pick the other projectiles to have lots of utility and ease of use (so maybe skip power bow)

 

[thehard]

Will uses 1231 and 3231 for DK. It's imperative the EVO sets include these.

 

[Piford]

Will uses 1231 and 3231 for DK. It's imperative the EVO sets include these.

How can he not use hot slap? It's the greatest move in existence.

 

[Thinkaman]

How can he not use hot slap? It's the greatest move in existence.

Have you seen how top DKs, Will in particular, use the default down-b? It's a terrifying good edge trap in ideal situations.

 

[Octagon]

I'm so happy Donkey Kong is better when customs are used, he needs way more play cause he's a great character, but not too popular among the diddys and sheiks

 

[Piford]

Have you seen how top DKs, Will in particular, use the default down-b? It's a terrifying good edge trap in ideal situations.

Actually though whats the pros and cons of hot slap besides fire?