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Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

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Azriel Auxifur

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So I made an account strictly to get involved in this custom move project. I recently tested this ruleset out and gotten people's opinion of it I have gotten mixed reviews of "they're good" and "they're alright" I'm probably going to ask the local TO if he would allow me to host more side events involving customs. At the moment not many people seem to like the idea of a paid custom tournament so I'l be doing free events to just collect opinion from people. That list took my friend and I a couple of hours to recreate on the 3ds (using power save) so we can transfer it on the wiiu. Would it be possible for us to lower down the number of custom sets needed? Or will that be happening in the next ruleset releast? I'm asking because the length of time it took us to recreate that list in-game may discourage very inpatient people from actually bothering with it. Not to mention the sheer number of customs sets may overwhelm people just trying them out


Uh...I guess this was a long introduction

Hi, I'm new I want to get involved in this awesome project
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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If this custom move system were to be the standard, would I still be able to play default fox? I personally prefer default to all of the "best custom fox" setups.
I know 3 people already said yes, but you can still choose default in the CSS. We're not banning default specials, only allowing the custom ones.

I also prefer the default setup with my ZSS, but I'm really interested to see my Bowser with custom moves, X23X being my personal favorite.
 
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Tinkerer

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I was looking at the villager builds and I didn't see mine.

1312

I've been running this build and can say it's really good. He keeps his regular pocket. He changes to push rocket which is great for combo starters. That's a trait that is being vastly overlooked. He keeps his default balloons. It allows him to gimp people off all day and still returning to the stage safely. You can't sweatspot the ledge with explosive balloons. Not in free falling animation if you get to low. Villager has one of the best up specials in the game. I don't see why so many builds have explosive balloons. Very overrated. Tree tripper is such a god like move. Talk about stage control. Plant one seed and have diddys banana stuck in the ground. He commands space or get hurt. Allows for a lot of traps.

Somebody should change the listing for villager. Add the 1312 build. It's the best build for off stage and stage control.

I was looking for this build in the list and couldn't find it, would be a great addition. I do like Explosive Balloon Trip a lot but on some stages or against some characters you want to go in way deeper off-stage and EBT just isn't quite as good because of the need to pop to go as high.
 

Raziek

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Robin: Arcfire+
100 times no.

Arcfire+ travels much too slowly to be useful here, she can just catch it with her 'reflector' easily and you need default Arcfire to have actual follow-ups.

Robin's best anti-Rosa set is 3111, which I have several sets using:



Arcfire+ is just bad. The angle and travel speed are the worst possible combination. It's designed for long-range combat, but the fireball travels so slowly that someone at that particular range should never get hit unless they are asleep at the wheel.
 

Raijinken

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100 times no.

Arcfire+ travels much too slowly to be useful here, she can just catch it with her 'reflector' easily and you need default Arcfire to have actual follow-ups.

Robin's best anti-Rosa set is 3111, which I have several sets using:

Arcfire+ is just bad. The angle and travel speed are the worst possible combination. It's designed for long-range combat, but the fireball travels so slowly that someone at that particular range should never get hit unless they are asleep at the wheel.
As much as I really like the way it explodes, I have to agree, it's no good in a realistic situation. It could, maybe, possibly, have some niche role in Doubles or something, but this project is definitely designed around singles.
 

Azriel Auxifur

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That's simply amazing definitely would add some defensive options to her or some gimmicky reversal considering she still gets damaged on some occassions. Also what are people's opinion on Nayru's rejection. I hear it's broken but zelda has a pretty long start up lag when she twists her body around to do it.
 

HeroMystic

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So I made an account strictly to get involved in this custom move project. I recently tested this ruleset out and gotten people's opinion of it I have gotten mixed reviews of "they're good" and "they're alright" I'm probably going to ask the local TO if he would allow me to host more side events involving customs. At the moment not many people seem to like the idea of a paid custom tournament so I'l be doing free events to just collect opinion from people. That list took my friend and I a couple of hours to recreate on the 3ds (using power save) so we can transfer it on the wiiu. Would it be possible for us to lower down the number of custom sets needed? Or will that be happening in the next ruleset releast? I'm asking because the length of time it took us to recreate that list in-game may discourage very inpatient people from actually bothering with it. Not to mention the sheer number of customs sets may overwhelm people just trying them out


Uh...I guess this was a long introduction

Hi, I'm new I want to get involved in this awesome project
Ideally, we wouldn't have to use sets at all, but with the way how they're designed we more or less have no choice but to go down this route, especially since EVO is not allowing 3DS imports.

If your TOs are worried about this, just remind them once everything has been imported, it's saved on there forever. So they never have to do it again.
 

DunnoBro

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Wouldn't get your hopes up, Tantalus said no customs for a few weeks. Well, technically he said customs won't be the main tournament for a few weeks...

Also on the topic of character/custom selection times, I believe both players should know what character their opponent is using BEFORE they declare which customs they're using.

A big draw of customs is to balance out matchups, not just make characters better. I think it's healthier than just having a best "game 1" set, and would promote a more diverse and healthy meta. Along with overall more well-rounded characters.
 
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Raijinken

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Wouldn't get your hopes up, Tantalus said no customs for a few weeks. Well, technically he said customs won't be the main tournament for a few weeks...

Also on the topic of character/custom selection times, I believe both players should know what character their opponent is using BEFORE they declare which customs they're using.

A big draw of customs is to balance out matchups, not just make characters better. I think it's healthier than just having a best "game 1" set, and would promote a more diverse and healthy meta. Along with overall more well-rounded characters.
It's still kinda tricky determining who gets last pick of customs. If I'm a Gunner (for some reason) and my opponent gets Samus, if I take Absorbing Vortex (or to a lesser extent, Reflector), they know to run Melee Charge Shot. If they take Melee Charge Shot, I should get Bombs. If I got Bombs, they know they can run Dense or Default Charge Shot. Last pick has the advantage there, and honestly, I'd give that last pick to the loser of the last round.
 

Splash Damage

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Uh...I guess this was a long introduction

Hi, I'm new I want to get involved in this awesome project
First off, welcome to Smashboards! Enjoy your stay!

Secondly, as long as you have around 4-6 of the sets on each character available(you can upload the sets for each character all at once so this shouldn't be an issue i'd hope) and allow people to import their own to fill up the last slots, you should be just good, I'm sure no one would have any complaints in that case.
 

Zzuxon

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CEO is banning customs for fear of johns. What a crock of crap.

Jebailey Logic said:
The stage Duck Hunt will be banned at CEO as unlocking it requires an investment of time in single player modes, which some people may not want to make.
 
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Davis-Lightheart

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Eh. I feel he has some fair logic, even if I disagree with it for the most part. His fears aren't unjust, but at the same time I don't care for his very closed off approach. Of course, he says he will be listening to opinions at the least.
 

Neoleo21

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CEO is banning customs for fear of johns. What a crock of crap.
Isn't Duck Hunt unlocked with DHD? We really only need one big tourney like EVO to spread awareness for custom move play as well as establish precedent. Push the advantages we have currently, and the Naysayers will eventually be silenced when the true ruleset of the game rears its head.
 

Teshie U

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Its a real shame this couldn't have been done easier on Nintendo's part. I understand unlocking as a feature is good for casuals and completionists, but if sets were completely done away with and you just picked moves on the CSS it would have been perfect (much like choosing supers in other games).

But we all knew the menu design was terrible when we got the game.


I almost wish we could just simplify it into only allowing 1 custom move at a time, completely getting past any logistical issues by only having 8 sets per character. This would make the entire process pain free and PERMANENT. I'd rather just see everyone make the tough call to have to pick the 1 thing that needs to be improved.
 

Sixfortyfive

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I almost wish we could just simplify it into only allowing 1 custom move at a time, completely getting past any logistical issues by only having 8 sets per character. This would make the entire process pain free and PERMANENT. I'd rather just see everyone make the tough call to have to pick the 1 thing that needs to be improved.
I feel like this would be a worst-case compromise if the politics of lobbying for the "best" sets in character forums just gets too tedious.
 

ぱみゅ

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"Investing too much time" is honestly a poor excuse.

Just think about how many games require you to finish it, often in higher or highest difficulties to unlock every character.
 
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Teshie U

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Mario would legitimately hate all of you if he could only pick one custom special at a time.
Only because he gets 2 direct upgrades I guess.
Just curious, what other characters do we think NEED more than 1 custom move. Does anyone really have 2 that are crucial. Excluding Miis ofcourse. I'd say even Palutena only needs lightweight.
 

HeroMystic

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Only because he gets 2 direct upgrades I guess.
Mario has a use for all of his customs because all of them combined gives him a different playstyle.

We actually had to put away some custom movesets because there's only ten spaces on the Wii U but we came up with 12 because Mario wants Super Cape against Megaman and Pac-man, but it's inferior to Shocking Cape and Gust Cape in all other MUs.
 

Thinkaman

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Only because he gets 2 direct upgrades I guess.
Just curious, what other characters do we think NEED more than 1 custom move. Does anyone really have 2 that are crucial. Excluding Miis ofcourse. I'd say even Palutena only needs lightweight.
Super Speed is more important than Lightweight.

WFT, Bowser Jr, Ike, Ganon, Kirby, Zelda, and a few others want multiple customs. It's somewhat of a short list.
 

Raijinken

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"Investing too much time" is honestly a poor excuse.

Just think about how many games require you to finish it, often in higher or highest difficulties to unlock every character.
Imagine Melee play if that was an excuse. No Battlefield, no Final Destination, and no Falco for hundreds of VS matches.

I agree about the "only allow one custom" thing. It would be the worst kind of compromise, especially with all the work everyone who cares is doing to condense each list to ten choices.
 

MrEh

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Man I hope people really don't think Lightweight is better than Superseed.

Superspeed is the only thing that makes Palutena a functional character.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Isn't Duck Hunt unlocked with DHD? We really only need one big tourney like EVO to spread awareness for custom move play as well as establish precedent. Push the advantages we have currently, and the Naysayers will eventually be silenced when the true ruleset of the game rears its head.
Strictly speaking you can still unlock Duck Hunt by playing enough vs. matches I think, but the Duck Hunt stage is locked behind Cruel Smash.

Regarding Super Speed, I must admit I find it a bit harder to control and am more comfortable managing Lightweight. (Also I prefer Reflect over Counter for no particular reason but whatever.)
 
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Teshie U

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Well I'm sure everything has some niche uses for a matchup or two, but I'm talking about crucial things that solve a very common problem for a character.

You'd obviously have the option to have that 1 custom you need per matchup, but does any character truly truly need 2 customs to solve an overbearing issue for the character?

For Ganondorf I know I'd pick Dark Fists. Wizard dropkick is a great move and the only other custom I care about for Ganondorf, but Dark Fists is crucial in every matchup I feel.

Samus would obviously be relentless missiles, they pick up the holes in her offensive game so well and give her some truly unique pressure on and off stage.

Rosalina I think is Luma Warp. Super useful punishing move for her.




How is super speed more crucial than Lightweight? In my experience, I can get the job done with lightweight any time I would use Super Speed. They both tend to cover each other's cooldown periods.
 

Ansou

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Well I'm sure everything has some niche uses for a matchup or two, but I'm talking about crucial things that solve a very common problem for a character.
Let's just say allowing only one custom would be a non-solution to the problem and would kinda defeat the purpose of having custom moves.
 

GeneralLedge

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Strictly speaking you can still unlock Duck Hunt by playing enough vs. matches I think, but the Duck Hunt stage is locked behind Cruel Smash.
Duck Hunt(and Stage) ..... KO 1 Fighter in Cruel Smash
Backthrow one Mii off the ledge, run away for the 3 seconds it takes for it to die, lose. A stage and character you can unlock in 10 seconds.
 

webbedspace

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Not sure why Duck Hunt is the prime example of a single-player-only unlock when

Granted, the Playing Tricks event can be reached after just 2 prior events from the start, but still...

(During the first week of the Wii U release I actually did see a streamed tourney that had banned Smashville because not every setup had it unlocked yet - but the stream setup did and plenty of players just Gentleman'sed to it. You can't fight Town Hall.)
 
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Azriel Auxifur

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Smash boards deleted my first post here...:( (Still under 10 post I can't quote and my previous post was longer...now this is shorter lol)

A friend of mine and I were having a discussion last night about customs in tournaments. Would it just be possible to pool together any game changing custom and have a ban list with them? Then give the attendee the responsibility of communicating with the TO what set they'll be using on whatever character they will bring to the tournmanet? For example;

Tiger: Zelda 1113
Judas: Mario 3333, Luigi 1112

Whatever they write down on the list or communicate with the TO should be what they are allowed to use for that specific character. That would help eliminate people from switching customs up to specifically counter certain characters and will keep the playing field balanced because they confirmed that they'll be using that set for what specific character. Which will of course eliminate usage of the "default' set but other tournaments do that sort of thing. For example card game tournament such as yo-gi-oh the TO has the attendees write down every card that's in their deck and side deck and whatever are in their set they are allowed to use throughout the tournament. It's a system that helps eliminate the possibility of someone switching around to make their fight "easier". Skullgirls has a similar thing with their custom assist mechanic which creates a lot of diversity in what sort of team you have on smash is no different but in this case I feel like it's a lot easier to have a list of moves that should not be allowed in a set because of their game changing presence or a mechanic that will completely put the match in their favor.

Another thing, for those who have friends who do not want to invest the time in unlocking moves but have some money to spare in addition to having a 3ds with a not downloaded smash...the 3ds action replay can help spread the custom awareness around.
 
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Raijinken

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Smash boards deleted my first post here...:( (Still under 10 post I can't quote and my previous post was longer...now this is shorter lol)

A friend of mine and I were having a discussion last night about customs in tournaments. Would it just be possible to pool together any game changing custom and have a ban list with them? Then give the attendee the responsibility of communicating with the TO what set they'll be using on whatever character they will bring to the tournmanet? For example;

Tiger: Zelda 1113
Judas: Mario 3333, Luigi 1112

Whatever they write down on the list or communicate with the TO should be what they are allowed to use for that specific character. That would help eliminate people from switching customs up to specifically counter certain characters and will keep the playing field balanced because they confirmed that they'll be using that set for what specific character. Which will of course eliminate usage of the "default' set but other tournaments do that sort of thing. For example card game tournament such as yo-gi-oh the TO has the attendees write down every card that's in their deck and side deck and whatever are in their set they are allowed to use throughout the tournament. It's a system that helps eliminate the possibility of someone switching around to make their fight "easier". Skullgirls has a similar thing with their custom assist mechanic which creates a lot of diversity in what sort of team you have on smash is no different but in this case I feel like it's a lot easier to have a list of moves that should not be allowed in a set because of their game changing presence or a mechanic that will completely put the match in their favor.

Another thing, for those who have friends who do not want to invest the time in unlocking moves but have some money to spare in addition to having a 3ds with a not downloaded smash...the 3ds action replay can help spread the custom awareness around.
The point of customs is to change the game, so I disagree with banning them to begin with. Aside from that, there are some issues with the list system you propose:
Not everyone knows the TO in advance, nor necessarily has a direct contact line to them.
Half the point of customs is to swap a handful of moves for matchups. Rosalina has no point running Gravitational Pull against DK, and no point running Guardian Luma against Megaman. If I entered as a Rosalina with GravPull, I'd be handicapped against melee-only fighters because of a rather arbitrary "avoidance" of these extremely soft counters.
It isn't really comparable to Yugioh or TCGs, part of the point there is to ensure you don't cheat, since there are hard counters in the game from a design perspective. And while players typically run mains, the card-swapping analogy is more akin to having a character-lock tournament and someone changing characters.

Basically, if we run with your suggestion, everyone must rationally lock themselves into their optimal moveset to handle the greatest perceived threat, i.e. whatever they think counters Diddy. All that does is result in extremely narrow threat-analysis setup, with no room for adaptation on the fly if you get to the tournament and discover that (by a stroke of miracle) no one is playing Diddy.

For that matter, the whole point of customs is to make one character's fight "easier". Just like picking a character. If I'm playing Palutena and run Superspeed+Lightweight, that is precisely so that I can make my fight easier, and for that matter, make my character valid against others who have superior normals or default specials.

And lastly, what if twelve Diddy players all showed up and (for some reason) wanted different loadouts? You only have room for ten plus default without having to use a 3DS (or an unlocked U).

Not to mention the havoc players like me, who play a very large handful of characters with a large variety of movesets, could cause.
 

Azriel Auxifur

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Constantly changing a character's load out to your favor isn't exactly fair to those who have just rather stick to the default set. Plus changing sets eliminates the person ability to counter you effectively in a 2/3 set. I understand that customs are there to make the fight easier but coming in with a couple of sets to help make the competition easier isn't exactly fair and so far the feedback I collected in my area that's a big concern. Customs should be treated like a "default character" you run with it and you overcome any sort of disadvantages that comes with running that type of character. Yes, the possibility of someone running the best set to counter the main threat "will be there" but that's normal when it comes to these sort of things. UMvsC does it, Skullgirls does it too but as the meta develop people will still find a way to make unconventional sets work and you have to factor in people who just play characters with preference and those that will run the specific set they like and enjoy.

As for the 12/10 character slot thing...well my only answer to that is having 3ds transfer legal and the process should be treated similar to how people bring arcade sticks and test buttons out. It's a slight hassle but everyone does and it's pretty quick.

As for communicating with the TO stuff like that should be put in the tournament's rules and if anyone is bringing a "new player" they should be made aware that they will have to communicate with the tournament organizer who "of course" will be on site...so it's not that hard to do. Plus if you have multiple people you like to use customize obviously you will have some idea of what you will be using prior to the competition considering many people like to show up early to do friendlies and socialize before people get serious.

I don't see an issue with not allowing certain moves since some moves do give a certain character a complete powerspike and therefore becomes the new threat instead but as the custom move meta develops it's easier to have some freedom with a some form of regulation to at least give us some ground on how to "balance it out them out"
 
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