Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Kenjin]

Well, when i'll have more time for myself i'll unlock all custom moves and prove my point with exemples. Keep ignoring me until then.

Honestly, I do think all tournaments will ban all of them in like, one year. So, I don't think it's really important to discuss it, just wanted to point that out.

 

[Pazx]

@ everyone with some sense: I think if we want any sort of standard picking a random character has to be outright banned to avoid equipment boosts (although random-only tournaments would be a hype mini event).

"The majority of the community is in favour of customs."
Of casual gamers, yes, but every competitive players are against customs. Or at least, 95% of them.

"Picking random character has to be banned at custom tourneys, right?"
Nope, cause it's not random at all while the match played.


Customs are a little bit randoms cause it adds randomness to the first match, as they improve how a MU is favorable to a character or on another.



In My Opinion, the ideal rules would be like that:

-A list of banned custom moves (Some on top tiers like Diddy, Ness or even some on Link are completely broken, I can't make a perfect list by myself as it would ask something like 100 hours of testings and my list wouldn't even be widely accepted.
-A number of custom moves allowed depending on the character. For example: Palutena can have 4 custom moves, Diddy can have only one.


Allowing all the custom moves is a ******** thing to do, I honestly think it's just a way Melee players have found to kill smash 4 on the competitive scene. Making "fun" rules that aren't competitive just to make the competitive scene die. But hey, it won't happen, in mst countries custom are simply banned, and if you don't stop to say that all the customs are balanced, custom will NEVER happen.

Ness and Diddy are notorious for having some of the absolute worst custom moves in the game. Diddy has 1 good custom, and it's arguably a downgrade from his default moveset. Prove me wrong with hard evidence, data, specific examples. Until then, be quiet.

Proof you need to provide:
Randomness - How do custom moves make the first match random? If you cared to read a little you'd see that with proposed rulesets both players will have access to their opponents moves beforehand and will know exactly which moves they are using in the match and what they do.

"Completely Broken" custom moves - You haven't even unlocked them and you're unable to provide a single example of a move that is overpowered, game-breaking or incredibly glitchy.

I am a competitive player, most of us here are, and we do not have time for your nonsense about things you are both uninformed and ignorant about. If you are open minded and willing to learn, or you have genuine concerns that are backed up with examples then you are welcome to continue posting here. "Customs will be banned so this thread doesn't matter" is not a constructive post. Goodbye.

 

[Kenjin]

I've unlocked most of them on 3DS, while on Wii U I have almost no custom. And I've sold my 3DS game. That's why.

 

[GSM_Dren]

"The majority of the community is in favour of customs."
Of casual gamers, yes, but every competitive players are against customs. Or at least, 95% of them.

Customs are a little bit randoms cause it adds randomness to the first match, as they improve how a MU is favorable to a character or on another.

I honestly do not know where you are getting this information from. 95% of competitive players are against custom moves? Really? Last I checked many are for custom movesets, and Amazing Ampharos solves the logistic issue by providing TOs the ability to load custom sets ahead of time.

Customs are not random, and can be unlocked by anyone who's willing to put in the time (hint: you only really need to unlock customs for characters that you play or characters that are getting the most attention). Customs give characters a better option than their default special, this in turn lessens the gap among the top/high tiers and low tiers becase the low tiers receive much more benefit from customs than the top/high tiers.

In My Opinion, the ideal rules would be like that:

-A list of banned custom moves (Some on top tiers like Diddy, Ness or even some on Link are completely broken, I can't make a perfect list by myself as it would ask something like 100 hours of testings and my list wouldn't even be widely accepted.
-A number of custom moves allowed depending on the character. For example: Palutena can have 4 custom moves, Diddy can have only one.


Allowing all the custom moves is a ******** thing to do, I honestly think it's just a way Melee players have found to kill smash 4 on the competitive scene. Making "fun" rules that aren't competitive just to make the competitive scene die. But hey, it won't happen, in mst countries custom are simply banned, and if you don't stop to say that all the customs are balanced, custom will NEVER happen.

There is no evidence about broken customs (other than suspected Piston punch and order tackle), and even so, those customs you stated make the characters more usable correct? Diddy does not need customs at all to still be at the top, while a character like Link greatly benefits through better projectiles. Why should characters be limited to their default when Sakurai gave Smash 4 a chance to be unique through custom moves?

In no way are Melee players trying to kill smash 4 through custom moves (really though think about this). The argument you are trying to make about competitive aspects of the game are not well-supported, and I think you're just putting customs down because you don't want to learn to play against them. So please, keep this thread on topic.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ignore my earlier submitted duck hunt sets, recently discovered a rather polarizing combo with zigzag.

Essentially, if you have an opponent in/near the zigzag can while grabbed (absurdly easy since the move itself is a frame trap for grabs) if you mash the special button instead of, or before fully throwing an opponent, you can get an auto-combo with the can. Which will easy combo into itself, or depending on their DI hit them in to follow up for an aerial, or if they're lucky get out while only taking about 10-20%

Generally though, the combo can do up to 40% or kill. As such, I think it's necessary to use it more before we consider sets too seriously, but I will say I wonder if even the default trick shot even has a place now with how powerful zigzag is..

 

[DunnoBro]

Are we going to ignore Kenjin thinks diddy has broken customs or nah?

Also, I dunno about other competitive communities, but md/va's is definitely not 95% against customs. They're not in unanimous approval, but the majority love customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Are we going to ignore Kenjin thinks diddy has broken customs or nah?

Also, I dunno about other competitive communities, but md/va's is definitely not 95% against customs. They're not in unanimous approval, but the majority love customs.

I'm becoming more and more convinced the only reasons someone could dislike customs are that they're ignorant, have legitimate logistics concerns (which we're kindly solving without their help or thanks), or they play Diddy and don't want their throne threatened.

Any other concerns should certainly step forward so we can debunk them soundly with logic and evidence, but that seems to cover most of what I've seen.

Anyways, with regards to Kenjin's belief that all tournaments will ban them in a year or so, that's a valid (if somewhat unfounded) prediction. However, all the more reason to try them now before everyone gets locked into default-only mode. All that about "You never know unless you try".

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'm skeptical of Shadow Blade having utility anywhere in the ballpark of Metal Blade. Can you elaborate?

If nobody responded, I'll give my two cents. Although I'm not "outstanding" at the game, so I'm not sure about high-level play...

Shadow Blade does some neat things:

• It juggles opponents at mid-range
• It forces them to shield for a long time
• It forces them to jump over it

I'm a big fan of 3322 as well, partly because Shadow Blade forces the opponent to react in such a way that you can follow-up.

• If they get juggled at long-range, you can follow up with some lemons.
• If they get juggled at mid-range, you can follow it up with a grab.
• If they get juggled at close-range, you can follow it up with a Danger Wrap.
• If they get juggled at super-close range (low%), you can follow it up with a Tornado Hold
• If they get juggled at super-close range (High%), you can follow it up with a Shoryuken.
• If they block, they leave themself open to a grab at mid and close range.
• If they jump over it, they leave themself open to a Danger Wrap
• If they block and grab at close range, the Shadow Blade will break the grab unless they throw you immediately

Elsewhere, I've been having a lot of fun with Samus's Melee Charge Shot. It seems like it shouldn't work, but it has a ton of kill power behind it, and you can use missiles for ranged coverage anyway. Pretty great punish if they miss a grab in front of you.

 

[thehard]

I think Samus should get a Melee Charge Shot setup to fill the 9th or 10th slot. Perhaps with Slip Bomb?

 

[GeneralLedge]

The set I've been using with Samus lately is 3123. Slip Bomb's probably better to set up for a melee charge.

 

[Piford]

-A list of banned custom moves (Some on top tiers like Diddy, Ness or even some on Link are completely broken, I can't make a perfect list by myself as it would ask something like 100 hours of testings and my list wouldn't even be widely accepted.
-A number of custom moves allowed depending on the character. For example: Palutena can have 4 custom moves, Diddy can have only one.

Because banning backflip is really something we need to do.

 

[Raijinken]

The set I've been using with Samus lately is 3123. Slip Bomb's probably better to set up for a melee charge.

Any reason for default missiles over persistent missiles?

Because banning backflip is really something we need to do.

Realistically it's default Monkey Flip that's overpowered and ban-worthy (I kid, but if anything's overpowered, it's certainly not custom moves)

 

[GeneralLedge]

Any reason for default missiles over persistent missiles?

Not really. Only just started playing as Samus to try out the melee charge shot, and I made the 3123 set based off of the existing sets not running Melee Charge, and figured regular missiles could use some love. I'm sure whichever missiles you want would work.

Are persistent missiles better in every way? Or are they slower?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not really. Only just started playing as Samus to try out the melee charge shot, and I made the 3123 set based off of the existing sets not running Melee Charge, and figured regular missiles could use some love. I'm sure whichever missiles you want would work.

Are persistent missiles better in every way? Or are they slower?

Relentless missiles are slower and do a bit less damage but their turning radius is much sharper and the homing ones stay out for much longer. You have to get behind them in order to shake them off, basically. (Or hope the stage has some geometry that gets in their way.)

Also slow projectiles are sometimes favorable since they can provide cover for your non-projectile actions.

 

[GeneralLedge]

So 3222 and 3212 for Samus, possibly?

 

[Zzuxon]

I feel like Kenjin is a troll, judging by some of the stuff I've seen him say in other threads.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Well, here it is. This is the first release of a community wide project to make custom moves logistically practical for tournament play. To make it short, all you have to do is get one 3ds with everything unlocked (unlocking via PowerSaves Action Replay codes is fine), set up these movesets on that 3ds, and use that one 3ds to import these to every set-up you'll be using in the tournament. You do it once, it's done, and 99% of players will be able to quickly (as in "takes ~1 second") pick their moves in tournament. The remaining less than 1% of players can just 3ds import themselves on tournament day into the intentionally left open slots 9 and 10; players with specific, unusual preferences are almost guaranteed to either have a 3ds or at least know someone who does. Here's a video explaing the system in action:

Of course, this does rest on the premise of knowing the best builds for every character. I consulted with every last character board and got the top 6 builds per character. These are divided between "critical sets" which represent the important, super-necessary options that 90% of players will use and "supplemental sets" that are more for counterpicking or to suit less common preferences. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow for players to take these set-ups home, hit the lab, and really figure out how a lot of these less popular moves work. This project will be revised in the future as custom preferences evolve, and allowing players in this early stage of the metagame to explore those moves is important. Without further adieu, here's the list of the top six sets per character that are suggested to be set up on each Wii U:

Format: Custom moves are numbered 1-3 as named by the game and are in the order neutral, side, up, down. For Rosalina, 2313 refers to Neutral-2 (Luma Warp), Side-3 (Shooting Star Bit), Up-1 (Launch Star), and Down-2 (Guardian Luma). Mii Fighters have a size indicator. Small indicates the smallest possible Mii, wide indicates a Mii of minimum height but maximum width, and normal indicates a Mii of even parameters on both (the system Miis named Guest A-F are this type of Mii).

Mario

2333
1313
2313
1333
2223
2323

Luigi

1211
1312
1311
1231
2311
3311

Peach

2212
2312
3212
3312
2211
2311

Bowser

1211
1311
3311
1213
1331
3211

Yoshi

3111
3312
1112
2311
2312
1131

Rosalina & Luma

2311
2313
1311
1313
2211
2213

Bowser Jr. and Koopalings

2211
2123
2121
2113
2223
2213

Wario

1113
1211
1313
2311
1311
1121

Donkey Kong

1131
1133
1231
1331
2131
3131

Diddy Kong

1123
3123
1311
1113
3111
1131

Mr. Game & Watch

3321
3331
1331
1321
3311
1311

Little Mac

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212

Link

1213
2213
1211
1113
2233
2313

Zelda

1212
1211
1213
1311
1312
3212

Sheik

1211
2211
1221
2221
3211
1213

Ganondorf

2322
2122
2121
2332
2132
2321

Toon Link

2133
2131
1131
2113
2123
2132

Samus

2232
1212
1232
2212
2233
1213

Zero Suit Samus

1311
1112
1312
2111
2311
2312

Pit

3111
1113
3113
3112
1112
2111

Palutena

2322
2312
2321
1322
1312
1321
2332
1332

Marth

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

Ike

2222 (place in slot 1 instead of 7)
3222
2212
2232
3232
3211
2122

Robin

2111
3111
2311
3311
2113
3113

Duck Hunt

1133
1131
1113
3113
3112
1112

Kirby

3231
3233
3221
3132
3311
2231

King Dedede

3112
1122
3122
1312
2112
1322

Meta Knight

1211
1311
3211
1212
3212
3111

Fox

2122
2322
3322
1332
1321
3331

Falco

1123
1122
1133
1132
3133
2133

Pikachu

1311
2311
2312
1312
1321
1331

Charizard

1311
1331
1131
1231
1313
1113

Lucario

2111
3111
2211
1311
1121
1112

Jigglypuff

1321
1322
1122
3121
3321
3131
Greninja

1112
3112
3111
1311
1312
3312

R.O.B.

1132
1122
1112
1133
1123
1222

Ness

1112
1311
1312
1121
1323
1321

Captain Falcon

2111
2113
2121
2112
3123
2122

Villager

1122
1322
2122
2322
1121
1112

Olimar and Alph

1211
1311
1131
1112
1313
2211

Wii Fit Trainer

2321
1321
2121
3121
3322
1121

Shulk

1113
1313
3113
3313
2113
2313

Dr. Mario

2312
1312
2322
2311
1311
2332

Dark Pit

3111
1113
3113
3112
1112
2111

Lucina

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

Pac-Man

1112
1131
2132
2112
1132
2111

Mega Man

1311
1112
1113
1312
1313
1121

Sonic

1211
1221
1121
1311
2111
2211

Mii Brawler

1122Small
1132Small
1122Normal
1132Normal

Mii Swordfighter

1321Wide
1331Wide
1121Wide

Mii Gunner

3113Wide
3121Wide
3322Wide
3123Wide
3312Wide

This long list was compiled with the help of all of the character boards, but I had to process their thoughts and fill a few gaps. This was my thinking for how I handled each individual character:

Spoiler

This represents release 1.0, Winter/Spring 2015 edition. The next update will be in the summer. For those who used previous versions and want to update, a changelog is included below:

Change List:

Luigi:

Set 3 1112 -> 1311

Bowser Jr.:

Set 1: 1211 -> 2211
Set 2: 1213 -> 2123
Set 3: 1113 -> 2121
Set 5: 1221 -> 2223

Wario:

Set 1 1231 -> 1113
Set 3 2231 -> 1313
Set 4 2211 -> 2311
Set 6 1331 -> 1121

Mr. Game & Watch:

Set 5 3323 -> 3311

Little Mac:

Set 5 2123 -> 2211
Set 6 2121 -> 2212

Zelda:

Set 5 3111 -> 1312

Sheik:

Set 5 1212 -> 3211

Toon Link:

Set 5 2233 -> 2123
Set 6 2333 -> 2132

Marth:

Set 4 3113 -> 1121

Ike:

Set 6 3212 -> 3211

Duck Hunt:

Set 4 3131 -> 3113
Set 5 3133 -> 3112
Set 6 1132 -> 1112

Meta Knight:

Set 6 1221 -> 3111

Fox:

Set 4 1121 -> 1332

Falco:

Set 5 3123 -> 3133
Set 6 2123 -> 2133

Charizard:

Set 3 1112 -> 1131
Set 4 1312 -> 1231
Set 5 1332 -> 1313
Set 6 2311 -> 1113

Jigglypuff:

Set 1 1311 -> 1321
Set 2 1312 -> 1322
Set 3 1211 -> 1122
Set 4 1112 -> 3121
Set 5 1212 -> 3321
Set 6 1113 -> 3131

Captain Falcon:

Set 6 2211 -> 2122

Olimar:

Set 5 1312 -> 1313

Lucina:

Set 4 3113 -> 1121

Mega Man:

Set 5 3111 -> 1313
Set 6 1211 -> 1121

I'll end with major thanks to everyone who contributed. I can't individaully thank all of you because it was so many; there had to be over 100 people working on this which I believe shows the community's seriousness about custom moves and also the community's ability to come together and get stuff done when stuff needs done. I'm honored to have been able to head this kind of community effort, and out of respect for the work you've all done, I'll continue to work my hardest to make this the best, most useful system it can be.

This is awesome. Great work! As a Greninja main, and a player of quite a few different characters, this is a great reference to have when deciding what custom moves to use.

Also, I was concerned about how we could load custom moves into the game efficiently, but the 3DS seems like the best route. This is fantastic.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Are we going to ignore Kenjin

Yes.

 

[DarthLuigi36]

Isn't mighty falcon punch outright bad?

It has a much larger hit box than either of the other Falcon Punches, at the cost of some speed and power. It has proved to be useful in some edgeguarding situations.

Since all of the key sets are already put together using Falcon Dash Punch, there is no reason Mighty Falcon Punch can't get a few sets.

 

[Splash Damage]

This is awesome. Great work! As a Greninja main, and a player of quite a few different characters, this is a great reference to have when deciding what custom moves to use.

@ Amazing Ampharos This is another thing i wanted to bring up: A good thing about having this list system is that anyone trying to pick up a character post-custom move legalization is going to refer to these lists for the optimal sets. For example, I gave Palutena a try, and due to me not knowing the optimal customs for her, I referred to the list as a guideline, as the list was made with the knowledge of skilled Palutena mains who would know what to do with her more than me.

 

[Raijinken]

Does anyone have any strong feelings about Whirling Leap for Link? Seeing as he can't bomb jump with Meteor Bombs and Spin Attack is barely useful to begin with, considering trying it out.

I feel like Kenjin is a troll, judging by some of the stuff I've seen him say in other threads.

Reminds me of another guy who got axed around release time and then (by similar post content and style) decided to alt back into the boards.

 

[Locke 06]

@ everyone with some sense: I think if we want any sort of standard picking a random character has to be outright banned to avoid equipment boosts (although random-only tournaments would be a hype mini event).

Couldn't you pick random, find out what character you are w/what specials, and then restart the match?
And typing that I realize that some of the sets may not be loaded... Carry on.

 

[Raijinken]

Couldn't you pick random, find out what character you are w/what specials, and then restart the match?
And typing that I realize that some of the sets may not be loaded... Carry on.

Plus the time it takes to restart the match. Better to just not worry about it.

 

[Pepperz]

I was looking at the villager builds and I didn't see mine.

1312

I've been running this build and can say it's really good. He keeps his regular pocket. He changes to push rocket which is great for combo starters. That's a trait that is being vastly overlooked. He keeps his default balloons. It allows him to gimp people off all day and still returning to the stage safely. You can't sweatspot the ledge with explosive balloons. Not in free falling animation if you get to low. Villager has one of the best up specials in the game. I don't see why so many builds have explosive balloons. Very overrated. Tree tripper is such a god like move. Talk about stage control. Plant one seed and have diddys banana stuck in the ground. He commands space or get hurt. Allows for a lot of traps.

Somebody should change the listing for villager. Add the 1312 build. It's the best build for off stage and stage control.

 

[Raijinken]

I was looking at the villager builds and I didn't see mine.

1312

I've been running this build and can say it's really good. He keeps his regular pocket. He changes to push rocket which is great for combo starters. That's a trait that is being vastly overlooked. He keeps his default balloons. It allows him to gimp people off all day and still returning to the stage safely. You can't sweatspot the ledge with explosive balloons. Not in free falling animation if you get to low. Villager has one of the best up specials in the game. I don't see why so many builds have explosive balloons. Very overrated. Tree tripper is such a god like move. Talk about stage control. Plant one seed and have diddys banana stuck in the ground. He commands space or get hurt. Allows for a lot of traps.

Somebody should change the listing for villager. Add the 1312 build. It's the best build for off stage and stage control.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "sweetspotting" the ledge, you can most definitely sweetspot with Extreme Balloon Trip. I'm not as sold on its global adoption as some are, but that's almost certainly not one of the shortcomings.

 

[Pepperz]

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "sweetspotting" the ledge, you can most definitely sweetspot with Extreme Balloon Trip. I'm not as sold on its global adoption as some are, but that's almost certainly not one of the shortcomings.

If you gimp somebody down low, you can pop yourself up by exploding your balloons. It's not till you start coming down in the falling animation when you can grab the ledge. Not when your moving upwards. I value grabbing the ledge from underneath the catching it on the way down when I Gimp somebody. You lose a lot of control. Mobility > an avoidable offensive move.

 

[Locke 06]

Plus the time it takes to restart the match. Better to just not worry about it.

For the number of times random is actually chosen, I'm not sure time would be that big of an issue. Even in a large scale event like EVO or APEX, I doubt random was chosen frequently. Especially in Smash 4 with 52 characters, I can't see someone seriously choosing random throughout a tournament. For the rare occasion it happens, I think an extra 45 seconds (estimate) wouldn't be too bad.

 

[Raijinken]

For the number of times random is actually chosen, I'm not sure time would be that big of an issue. Even in a large scale event like EVO or APEX, I doubt random was chosen frequently. Especially in Smash 4 with 52 characters, I can't see someone seriously choosing random throughout a tournament. For the rare occasion it happens, I think an extra 45 seconds (estimate) wouldn't be too bad.

I'm half considering playing Random since I really just can't pick a main, but I'd gladly sacrifice Random for the sake of customs.

If you gimp somebody down low, you can pop yourself up by exploding your balloons. It's not till you start coming down in the falling animation when you can grab the ledge. Not when your moving upwards. I value grabbing the ledge from underneath the catching it on the way down when I Gimp somebody. You lose a lot of control. Mobility > an avoidable offensive move.

Ah, you meant after popping. That makes sense, I thought you just meant when you run into the edge with the balloons deployed, because you certainly snap when that happens. I can understand wanting the pop-snap though.

 

[numanumaking13]

Okay so I finally got all of the sets on the front page to my 3ds and Wii U. When you update this list will you make a post saying which ones you updated or will you just update the first page? I just want to know so I can update my customs as well. I want to help participate as much as possible.

 

[TheASDF]

Okay so I finally got all of the sets on the front page to my 3ds and Wii U. When you update this list will you make a post saying which ones you updated or will you just update the first page? I just want to know so I can update my customs as well. I want to help participate as much as possible.

Last time it was updated, there was a post in the thread mentioning it as well as a changelog edited into the initial post.

 

[numanumaking13]

Last time it was updated, there was a post in the thread mentioning it as well as a changelog edited into the initial post.

Okay thank you. I just wanted to make.

 

[Sodo]

Does anyone have any idea why Random with customs on automatically applies some equipment? I think that's a weird decision by the developers.

 

[Raijinken]

Does anyone have any idea why Random with customs on automatically applies some equipment? I think that's a weird decision by the developers.

Because Random Customs builds one randomly, and since Equipment and Moves are part of the same system, it (poorly) assumes you want some of both.

 

[BearUNLV]

Vegas Smash 4 will be using this list for DVDA#8: Spring Broken. I will try as the TO to test it out.

Thank you all for this list!

Best,
Bear

 

[Tromboon]

If this custom move system were to be the standard, would I still be able to play default fox? I personally prefer default to all of the "best custom fox" setups.

 

[Sodo]

If this custom move system were to be the standard, would I still be able to play default fox? I personally prefer default to all of the "best custom fox" setups.

Of course. No one would stop you from playing a default 1111 set. I think most people agree Diddy's default set is his most viable. I think a few default sets are like that.

 

[BearUNLV]

If this custom move system were to be the standard, would I still be able to play default fox? I personally prefer default to all of the "best custom fox" setups.

I'll be using 1111 Mega Man 90% of the time

 

[GSM_Dren]

If this custom move system were to be the standard, would I still be able to play default fox? I personally prefer default to all of the "best custom fox" setups.

Yup the ruleset isn't forcing you to play with all customs. You still have the ability to play default 1111 fox and I'd guess many people will still stick with their default moveset, or may only change one or two specials to fit their needs.

 

[Seiniyta]

If this custom move system were to be the standard, would I still be able to play default fox? I personally prefer default to all of the "best custom fox" setups.

regardless how many custom movesets are entered in. there's always the 'default' option in the character select menu.

 

[LanceKing2200]

I'll be using this system starting tonight at our weeklies (MA). We'll be streaming here: http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground starting at around 7 ET