Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Protom]

One additional set to Falco I recommend (if it's not there yet) is 1131. Voids power is good, and acceells boosts are nice, but sometimes I want to be able to BOTH hit and reflect..
Of course this set might already be there and my phone won't let me load up the monster that is the first post ;-P

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd say duck hunt's zigzag can is something people should know bout, it's very radical and different from his original, though DH might not be a common enough character for it to be an issue. People still don't understand his default can in tournament. (almost every tournament there's someone who tries to pick it up like an item)

 

[Zzuxon]

What is so crazy about the Captain Falcon boards? I've heard some stuff, and now I'm curious.

 

[Firefoxx]

Its an unorganized mess to put it lightly, and (unless something has happened in the last like week to change this) it had a moderator for all of 2 weeks. Technically it still has one, but I haven't seen them on that board in like 2 months.

And there is very little attempt to actually build a real knowledge base around the character. And there is very little activity over all. And he's arguably the most popular Smash character in existence. It's crazy. I'm just rambling at this point but you get the idea.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Someone feel free to point me in the direction of a more appropriate thread for this, but I wanted to ask if there's any kind of consensus on how customs selection and counterpicking should work.

Normal mid-match counterpick procedure:

1) Loser picks stage.
2) Winner picks character.
3) Loser picks character.

Now, which of the following two procedures should be used when customs are in play?

1) Loser picks stage.
2) Winner picks character and customs.
3) Loser picks character and customs.

OR

1) Loser picks stage.
2) Winner picks character.
3) Loser picks character.
4) Winner picks customs.
5) Loser picks customs.

I'm partial to the latter procedure. The former procedure would theoretically make match-ups more lopsided and subject to hard counters, while the latter procedure should make them less so. I also think the latter procedure is comparable to SF4 ultra selection, where the winner is character locked but can change ultra to adjust to different match-ups. What do you guys think? Have these rules been decided already to any degree?

 

[Rran]

I quite like that idea

 

[Teshie U]

Custom picks should be part of character picking. Adding the extra step just seems biased towards the more versatile custom sets and allows the winner to circumvent being counterpicking imo.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Custom picks should be part of character picking. Adding the extra step just seems biased towards the more versatile custom sets and allows the winner to circumvent being counterpicking imo.

What happens when hard counters like Order Tackle vs. reflectors come into play, though? Not that I don't expect that specific example to be patched into irrelevancy anyway, but the idea still stands. I think tying custom selection and character selection together could make counterpicks more lopsided than they should be.

 

[Teshie U]

Order Tackle is not a hard counter any more than Villager's pocket hard counters Megaman. Both are possibly abusive in TA on doubles, but you'd have to be truly ignorant to allow your opponent to land that gimmick on you.

 

[Raijinken]

As much matchup power should be given to the loser as possible, in my opinion. Thus, if winner still gets last character swap, then loser should be given one more custom swap that the winner can't react to.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You should unconditionally be able to pick custom moves in response to enemy character. It doesn't really matter who goes first or if it's double blind, but a lot of times you want to switch moves based on their character and it forces you to play guessing games that aren't about being skillful at smash if you don't allow that.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

One of the whole points of running customs in the first place is to tweak your moveset according to match-ups. If you're forced to lock in your custom selection before knowing the opposing character then it defeats the purpose.

 

[DarthLuigi36]

The Falcon board is one of the most frustrating things on this website.

The only change I can even think to make to his customs is replacing 3123 with 2123 just so that you have every combination of 211X and 212x possible since those are really his only viable sets

There definitely should be a Mighty Falcon Punch set. The move has some fans for sure, just not as many as Falcon Dash Punch.

Basically you're right though. Each combo of the two good Up B's plus every Falcon Kick should be represented, with Falcon Dash Punch being the primary Neutral B. One or two (at most) Mighty Falcon Punch sets should be there though.

2111
2112
2113
2121
2122
2123

That leaves 4 sets. Two for Mighty Falcon Punch, and maybe a set for that Explosive Falcon Dive + Lightning Falcon Kick combo? The final set can go to anything. I'd say give a set to Heavy Raptor Boost.

3111
3121
2133
2211

Any of the Falcon Kicks can be swapped in on these last sets, and we can entirely remove the last two sets for more Mighty Falcon Punch sets. It is the first 6 that are most important.

 

[Thinkaman]

Custom picks should be part of character picking. Adding the extra step just seems biased towards the more versatile custom sets and allows the winner to circumvent being counterpicking imo.

I think the more fitting perspective is that not allowing customs to be chosen in response to the matchup is reapplying polarization penalties to characters that otherwise have them addressed by move options, like Little Mac or Robin.

Also, not allowing customs in response to the matchup is a HUUUGE buff to Rosalina. MASSIVE.

 

[Teshie U]

I guess it goes both ways.

My perspective...

I lose game 1, my opponent picks palutena. If I CP with a usable but not versatile character (Samus, Ganondorf), Palutena can be completely reworked to counter me (reflector lightweight vs samus, super speed counter vs Ganondorf). Suddenly I've lost my counterpick.

 

[Big O]

I'm not 100% sure if it is still like this, but in SF4 you pick ultras after both characters lock in. I feel like that is a good model to follow. I mean going into a match without the right customs is like going into a match without the right ultra...x10.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I guess it goes both ways.

My perspective...

I lose game 1, my opponent picks palutena. If I CP with a usable but not versatile character (Samus, Ganondorf), Palutena can be completely reworked to counter me (reflector lightweight vs samus, super speed counter vs Ganondorf). Suddenly I've lost my counterpick.

I don't know if you're giving enough weight to the reverse situation, though. If the winner has to pick character + custom then the loser gets all the versatility in the world to box the winner into worse match-ups than those possible without customs, whereas if the winner picks Palutena in your scenario then the loser should have enough foresight to not attempt to CP with a character that one of her sets would completely dominate. If you add the extra step, then the loser still has the ability to counterpick every meaningful option without being outright rewarded for losing.

 

[Thinkaman]

I guess it goes both ways.

My perspective...

I lose game 1, my opponent picks palutena. If I CP with a usable but not versatile character (Samus, Ganondorf), Palutena can be completely reworked to counter me (reflector lightweight vs samus, super speed counter vs Ganondorf). Suddenly I've lost my counterpick.

Honestly, I still feel like Palutena should run X312 (where X is strictly user preference) in every matchup, so the example doesn't work that great for me?

A better case might be Bowser Jr. or WFT, or maybe Ike/Ganon to a minor extent. These are character who actively want to pick different moves to cover their multiple matchup flaws. And tbqh, it's hard for me to sympathize with opposition accordingly.

Is letting mid-tier Bowser Jr. change which Kart he is using (in response to the matchup) actually worse than that player just picking Diddy in the first place?

 

[Neoleo21]

I guess it goes both ways.

My perspective...

I lose game 1, my opponent picks palutena. If I CP with a usable but not versatile character (Samus, Ganondorf), Palutena can be completely reworked to counter me (reflector lightweight vs samus, super speed counter vs Ganondorf). Suddenly I've lost my counterpick.

I don't any other character has customs as versatile as palutena's or the Mii's, I think we should treat that as an inherent advantage that those character have much like how ZSS is great on a ton of stages in the game. (and Super Speed is probably better for the Samus Match up than reflector).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, a big thing in these sets is going to be to cover counterpicking match-ups so it's a good time to bring this up. Many characters have customs that are mostly bad but are specifically geared to help them fight Rosalina. Thinkaman had done some excessive research and sent me a list that is way too long; I'll try to parse it down to moves that we otherwise might have excluded that we should be thinking about for anti-Luma tech:

Mario/Doc: Shocking Cape
Bowser Jr.: Impatient Mechakoopa
Link: Ripping Boomerang (and maybe Quickfire Bow, might be too awful to use regardless)
Toon Link: High Speed Boomerang (and maybe Piercing Bow, might be too awful to use regardless)
Samus: Melee Charge Shot (might be too awful to use regardless)
Pit/Dark Pit: Piercing Bow
Marth/Lucina: Heavy Blade (may not be worth it anyway)
Robin: Arcfire+
Kirby: Wave Cutter
King Dedede: Dedede Storm, perhaps almost his entire custom moveset
Meta Knight: Stealth Smash
Fox: Fox Burst (may not be worth it anyway)
Falco: Falco Charge (may not be worth it anyway)
Lucario: Long Distance Force Palm
Duck Hunt: Clay Break
Ness: Pk Bonfire
Captain Falcon: Falcon Kick Fury
Pac-Man: Enticing Power Pellet

He had a lot of other moves, but they were mostly either moves that were either obviously already worth including in sets (like Sheik Piercing Needles) or moves that seem bad enough to not be worth it either way fairly clearly to me (like Pac-Man Dire Hydrant). Since these sets need to cover all counterpicking possibilities, thinking about how these moves might be worth integrating into a single "pick this for the Rosalina match-up to deal with Luma" set is something we should think about.

 

[Lavani]

What's the rationale for Stealth Smasher as anti-Luma? I guess it sends Luma flying further than Dimensional Cape does, but Meta Knight's both visible and vulnerable during its "teleport", and he takes so long to reappear that it can't even be used to punish something like a whiffed fsmash. Is there something the MK boards missed with it?

 

[Raijinken]

You should unconditionally be able to pick custom moves in response to enemy character. It doesn't really matter who goes first or if it's double blind, but a lot of times you want to switch moves based on their character and it forces you to play guessing games that aren't about being skillful at smash if you don't allow that.

How does this work if the opponent's custom choice influences my own? I could see this mattering for Miis/Palutena picks.Nevermind my question was already asked.

I think giving the loser of the previous round absolute last pick in customs is fair given that the advantage is supposed to lean their way.

 

[Pazx]

There definitely should be a Mighty Falcon Punch set. The move has some fans for sure, just not as many as Falcon Dash Punch.

Basically you're right though. Each combo of the two good Up B's plus every Falcon Kick should be represented, with Falcon Dash Punch being the primary Neutral B. One or two (at most) Mighty Falcon Punch sets should be there though.

2111
2112
2113
2121
2122
2123

That leaves 4 sets. Two for Mighty Falcon Punch, and maybe a set for that Explosive Falcon Dive + Lightning Falcon Kick combo? The final set can go to anything. I'd say give a set to Heavy Raptor Boost.

3111
3121
2133
2211

Any of the Falcon Kicks can be swapped in on these last sets, and we can entirely remove the last two sets for more Mighty Falcon Punch sets. It is the first 6 that are most important.

Isn't mighty falcon punch outright bad?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What's the rationale for Stealth Smasher as anti-Luma? I guess it sends Luma flying further than Dimensional Cape does, but Meta Knight's both visible and vulnerable during its "teleport", and he takes so long to reappear that it can't even be used to punish something like a whiffed fsmash. Is there something the MK boards missed with it?

I haven't tested it personally; it was on Thinkaman's list of moves that really mess up Luma when they hit it. It would be something that would need specific testing before being integrated into a set, but I don't think MK has any other easy ways to kill Luma fast so using it to punish me sending Luma at you seems logical to me. It was definitely the most questionable move I didn't flat out say was questionable on that list, but my rationale was that MK already seems to have relatively few viable customs and that Dimensional Cape is a small sacrifice to make so if it can be applied in any kind of way to kill Luma it's going to be worth it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario's Shocking Cape is not bad.

 

[Kenjin]

I have a simple question, I'm wondering why so many people are trying to implement custom on the competitive scene while items are completely banned? Why don't we try to find special rules that make items less random? I really don't get it, it's probably cause items have always been banned and we never tries to find balanced rules about it, but then, for me it clearly means that customs have the same chance to get on competitive as items.

 

[HeroMystic]

Items have already been attempted for competitive play a long time ago, both in Melee and in Brawl.

That said, items and custom specials are not comparable in the very slightest.

 

[Teshie U]

Items spawn in random locations. Thats really the main issue with them.

If custom moves being on causes specials to randomly spread between the various effects, they would be unusable.

 

[Kenjin]

With no rules, both add random and unbalance to the game, and both have been tested and both tend to be rejected, I do consider custom moves as passive items.

Yet, the main difference is that items are way more rejected that customs. Okay, maybe i'm a little bit impatient and in one year nobody will consider custom moves on tournaments, but still, I feel that it's faster to forbid items.
While we could make some items legits (no random items) and find a rule to delete the random factor in their spawn location. For example, waiting 5 second to take the item.

 

[HeroMystic]

I do consider custom moves as passive items.

And you'd be 100% incorrect.

 

[Kenjin]

When you hold a sword, you have "custom smashes", custom are the sames, but with specials.

 

[Chauzu]

I hope you are another one who mixes up allowing custom moves with allowing equipment because if not l see no logic to your reasoning.

 

[Teshie U]

With no rules, both add random and unbalance to the game, and both have been tested and both tend to be rejected, I do consider custom moves as passive items.

Yet, the main difference is that items are way more rejected that customs. Okay, maybe i'm a little bit impatient and in one year nobody will consider custom moves on tournaments, but still, I feel that it's faster to forbid items.
While we could make some items legits (no random items) and find a rule to delete the random factor in their spawn location. For example, waiting 5 second to take the item.

Items can spawn right on top of you as you are inputting a move. Causing you to explode, shrink, flub jabs and tilts or any manner of effect RANDOMLY.

Custom moves are chosen before a match and fulfill the same effect every time they are used.

As for battering items "customizing" your normals, that wouldn't be a bad thing if not for the RANDOM spawning. I don't think you really understand what you are talking about so I'll refrain from branding you as a simple troll.

 

[Kenjin]

Oh, sorry, i'm a troll cause I want a competitive game and not casual rules.

Anyway, yeah, Custom aren't that bad, it's just the fact that the community doesn't want strict rules to make the customs less random and more balanced. MANY custom HAVE to be banned, and many characters are too strong with custom moves.

You lazy people should think of that before thinking of the logistic problem.

 

[Pazx]

@ K Kenjin custom moves (not equipment mind you, please don't get confused) do not add anything random at all, nor do they unbalance the game. If you're convinced I'm wrong, please try to explain how they are random. On top of that, we've yet to find any custom moves that "have to be banned" and there are no characters that are too strong with customs (so far, with customs on no character has surpassed Sheik and Diddy), so if you can think of any please let us know. The majority of the community is in favour of customs.

Speaking of random (what a segue):

Picking random character has to be banned at custom tourneys, right?

 

[HeroMystic]

MANY custom HAVE to be banned, and many characters are too strong with custom moves.

Provide examples as to why that is the case. @ Thinkaman and @ Amazing Ampharos as well as many others have tested all customs and only two of them are in consideration to be banned.

Picking random character has to be banned at custom tourneys, right?

Only if the Wii U has custom equipment since for some reason Nintendo decided that we can't turn Custom Equipment off. We can either make sure all custom equipment is deleted or just ban Random. I find the latter to be much more reasonable though.

 

[Chauzu]

I am personally very intruiged by any notion of custom moves being broken is somewhat worse than standard moves being broken. I mean, the more logical way of thinking would be we can ban ANY move proved broken, whether it is a custom move or standard special move.

Note that I havent seen anything to believe any special is broken, at least in a 1v1 scenario.

 

[Kenjin]

"The majority of the community is in favour of customs."
Of casual gamers, yes, but every competitive players are against customs. Or at least, 95% of them.

"Picking random character has to be banned at custom tourneys, right?"
Nope, cause it's not random at all while the match played.


Customs are a little bit randoms cause it adds randomness to the first match, as they improve how a MU is favorable to a character or on another.



In My Opinion, the ideal rules would be like that:

-A list of banned custom moves (Some on top tiers like Diddy, Ness or even some on Link are completely broken, I can't make a perfect list by myself as it would ask something like 100 hours of testings and my list wouldn't even be widely accepted.
-A number of custom moves allowed depending on the character. For example: Palutena can have 4 custom moves, Diddy can have only one.


Allowing all the custom moves is a ******** thing to do, I honestly think it's just a way Melee players have found to kill smash 4 on the competitive scene. Making "fun" rules that aren't competitive just to make the competitive scene die. But hey, it won't happen, in mst countries custom are simply banned, and if you don't stop to say that all the customs are balanced, custom will NEVER happen.

 

[Chauzu]

@ K Kenjin I would suggest you take a step back because, lets be frank, you seem to not be very well informed about customs at all. And you still have not given any concrete examples. You also seem to think even Diddy has broken custom specials when he is universally known to be the one character that - arguably ofc - doesnt benefit from customs at all. Ofc you might know something we dont but until you properly explain that then it cant be taken seriously.

 

[HeroMystic]

@ K Kenjin You have yet to provide any examples or data to your claims. If you wish for us to take you seriously it would be in your best interest to do so. Until then you will be ignored.