Official Stage Legality Discussion

[buenob]

Good Player is recovering against another Good Player, they have an equal shot.

false. any character with an up-b with landing lag, or low air movement, or no multiple jumps will be at too big of a disadvantage to live

also, there is no edge to grab so the only option is to go through the opponent to land on the stage when recovering, which is absolutely terrible, and will more than likely die due to lack of options

also, the match cannot end in circling, but it can take off 3 minutes of time, and against an air-camping MK that is a _lot_ of easy run-away time... too much to actually make up the difference

 

[Linkshot]

You haven't listened to Harold enough.

If you Up+B for recovery on Big Blue, you will die, no matter who you are.

If you just land, you will survive. (less lag)

 

[buenob]

10 lolz...

how do you plan to recover without up-b?

 

[Linkshot]

You rarely need to actually recover on Big Blue. All you should be doing is Double Jump -> Land on track -> Jump -> Double Jump -> Land on Track etc.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=115195&page=1

The dumb****s in this tread want to make FD a CP.

 

[Linkshot]

FD should be CP. It's just a long flat stage.

Those get banned in Brawl.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

FD should be CP. It's just a long flat stage.

Those get banned in Brawl.

You sir, fail at life.

 

[Linkshot]

You, sir, fail at converting from Melee to Brawl.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

You, sir, fail at converting from Melee to Brawl.

I've read some of your posts here. You seem to support allowing really stupid stages like big blue.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

PictoChat is legal because it is arguably one of the most neutral stages in Brawl.

LOLZ

see what i mean?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've read some of your posts here. You seem to support allowing really stupid stages like big blue.

You, sir, fail at realizing that you are proving his points about people striking off stages before trying them. Big Blue is honestly borderline. If it wasn't for the temporary circle camping, I would say let it be a CP.

 

[sunshade]

for large amounts of time you can circle camp,

I saw a pic displaying the entire path on rumble falls. By any chance does anyone have the same thing for Big Blue so we could possibly see how many sections of the stage promote circle camping and for how long?

If the circle camping is really that bad than that puts the nail in the coffin for me.

much of the level becomes a death-trap for most of the time

What do you mean by death trap? Do you mean that your options are so limited that it becomes a no win situation or do you mean that the stage itself kills you off to easy?

if you fall off and are recovering against a good player you _will_ die...

Before you fall of the stage and are placed into the high risk environment you have to be knocked off by your opponent or make a mistake and in both cases its either you being punished for a controllable mistake not some random chance or completely unavoidable event.

 

[buenob]

blaze - try not to double post, and also your posts do nothing but flame... if you're actively trying to troll the thread, kudos!

linkshots statement about FD being CP is not without merit... I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely not nearly as "neutral" as bf/sv/yi (please no one make me define neutral, we all know what it means)

Big Blue has around 40 seconds every time the level loops where you can legitimately circle camp (the beginning part on the large yellow ship)... other parts include when the black "camera" ball is following you, but that is way harder... one of the reasons air-planking MK's love PS1 is because the transformations eat up a huge part of the clock just waiting for them to go away (and since their goal is to run the timer, it's just easier on that level)... blue suffers the same fate... however unlike ps1, the parts where excessive camping is not an option, the level is completely biased to a very small sub-set of characters (please god don't say this isn't a valid reason... it's the best but it's also not the ONLY one), it is completely foreign to the rest of brawl, it's GIGANTIC (KO off the top is basically unheard of), and all this combines to make not just a bad level, but a non-competitive level...

Before you fall of the stage and are placed into the high risk environment you have to be knocked off by your opponent or make a mistake and in both cases its either you being punished for a controllable mistake not some random chance or completely unavoidable event.

so being ON the sage is not a high risk environment? you're stopping the scenario to early (going backwards from death). being on the stage is a high-risk environment because you are one slip up away from being off he stage in a life and death situation... the safest place to be is in the air with your jump left... that is silly, the level should not be legal

edit:
V- LS don't troll back... he didn't actually say that, so don't put words in his mouth

 

[Linkshot]

Gee, I'm sorry for being able to be aware of my stage during a match.

Perhaps you should try this "awareness", too. Then you won't call out "RANDOM INFLUENCE" when Halberd's Claw hits you v.v

 

[sunshade]

Big Blue has around 40 seconds every time the level loops where you can legitimately circle camp (the beginning part on the large yellow ship)... other parts include when the black "camera" ball is following you, but that is way harder

The first section is without a doubt a prime candidate for circle camping however I do not think that the camera ball is that significant a spot to circle stall. A video of circle stalling with the camera would be sufficient to make me think otherwise but on paper it does not sound all that practical.

Also how long does it take the stage to fully loop? I would like to know for what percent of the match circle stall is a viable tactic.

the level is completely biased to a very small sub-set of characters

The level encourages air combat and discourages characters who are fans of grabbing. which makes it seem perfectly legitimate as a counter pick.

it is completely foreign to the rest of brawl, it's GIGANTIC (KO off the top is basically unheard of), and all this combines to make not just a bad level, but a non-competitive level...

Large levels are not inherently bad they simple require a mild adjustment in play style towards racking damage for a bit longer before attempting a kill than the player typically would. I find that to be in no ways an absurd requirement of players when engaging in a counter pick stage.

so being ON the sage is not a high risk environment? you're stopping the scenario to early (going backwards from death). being on the stage is a high-risk environment because you are one slip up away from being off he stage in a life and death situation... the safest place to be is in the air with your jump left... that is silly, the level should not be legal

When I think of a High risk scenario I feel that the player must have highly limited options and will be harshly punished for a mistake. While on stage your options may be more limited than on a neutral stage however you have significantly more options than being bellow the stage trying to recover so compared to the underbelly of the level I do not think being on stage as a High risk environment because you still have options.

Why is being in the air with your second jump left silly and non competitive? (this is a question not an argument)

 

[bobson]

I saw a pic displaying the entire path on rumble falls. By any chance does anyone have the same thing for Big Blue so we could possibly see how many sections of the stage promote circle camping and for how long?

There are several static "segments" of the track like the loop, the long jump, the short jump, the dip, etc., but they have no set order. They're all strung together randomly. The cars, platforms, and ball thing also seem to have random appearance times and paths, so a circle-camping strategy would be based mostly on luck.

 

[sunshade]

There are several static "segments" of the track like the loop, the long jump, the short jump, the dip, etc., but they have no set order. They're all strung together randomly. The cars, platforms, and ball thing also seem to have random appearance times and paths, so a circle-camping strategy would be based mostly on luck.

Is it possible for the same segment to repeat immediately after it has just appeared or does the stage rotate through then start repeating?

 

[bobson]

Is it possible for the same segment to repeat immediately after it has just appeared or does the stage rotate through then start repeating?

In a nine-minute test I've only seen the dip repeat itself immediately, but there are plenty of cases where a segment repeats before all segments have been shown, so they don't have to rotate fully to repeat.

The track segments don't seem to have any effect on the platform/car/ball/flyer placement, though.

 

[sunshade]

I have spent the last 30 minutes on Big Blue and I have found out that every 10-15 seconds one car will drive off the screen (or slow down and move off the screen) and another car will then come to replace it. There are almost always three cars and the cars have a static order for example the red car number 25 will always be in front of the blue car numbered 16 and yellow 11 will always be behind blue 16.

I have found the order that the cars follow! :D (the stage starts with any of these four randomly example it could start with 5,2,1,26 or 21,9,18,13 so long as the cars keep to their place in line it can start anywhere.)

21 -->9 -->18 -->13--> 29 --> (black)23--> 15 -->27 -->11 -->16 -->25 -->7 -->3 -->6 -->5 -->2 -->1 -->26 -->4 -->8 -->12 -->28 -->10 -->19 -->17 --> (black)30--> 24 -->14 -->20-->back to 21

In addition to that the large blue/yellow car only appeared four times and stayed on screen for roughly 45 seconds however the car can only be circle camped on for about 29 seconds due to the first and last 8 seconds of it being on screen being partly connected to the death zones causing an attempt to circle result in a suicide.

The camera is completely random as far as I can tell but it cannot appear at the same time as the larger car.

My guess as how Big Blue works is that it randomly decides to bring the blue car or camera when it changes phase (the long jump, short jump, and dip that bobson mentioned). each phase has its own set time length, however I have yet to measure the times of each from start to finish.

In terms of circle stall being an issue with this stage it appears that you will only see the large car at most twice during a match causing there to be only 50-65 seconds of reliable stall. During the rest of the match there are only three cars and the track. Comparing this to Pokemon stadium 1 where I have seen combat come to a complete halt until the phase changes, Big Blue does not appear to be at risk of stalling being a major issue.

 

[Linkshot]

Did you take into account the random platforms?

 

[infomon]

good stuff, sunshade!
now taking wifi friendlies on Big Blue so I can determine if I think it's noncompetitive.

(sigh, wifi my region is sadpanda)

 

[sunshade]

Did you take into account the random platforms?

The platforms only stay on screen for 10-15 seconds or so (I will look into it more) and move constantly and quickly making circle stall using the platforms limited to a few seconds. Stall on this stage is only effective if you get very lucky for a long period of time. Worst case scenario I could only see there being at most 75-80 seconds of stall due to stage bias.

Taking a moment to look away from the minor negative aspects of this stage I think it would be very worth while to compose a list of who this stage would benefit and who would it harm if implemented into the meta game.

Help:

, , , , , : would be at significantly less risk when fighting D3 of a being killed by a standing (or wario/bowser's cases ledge) chain grab.

, : Big Blue promotes air combat over land combat allowing these characters METAKNIGHT to function better.

: his strong hits allow him to knock his foes onto the track without much issue.

: Most of the cars have a fin on the back causing her down throw to toss foes in front of her onto the track as opposed to behind her.

,: Snake's and Pikachu's projectiles function better than most other projectiles on this stage.

: Quick attack allows fast movement around the stage.

Harm:

, , , : Chain grabs become near useless on this stage (although the cars with large fins are able to serve as walls for very short periods of times).

, , , : Projectiles become less useful on this stage during the phases that cause the stage to slant.

,: jab locks, laser locks, QAC locks all are completely useless on this stage. (this applies to all characters who enjoy using these types of locks.)

 

[Linkshot]

By "stage bias", do you mean Meta Knight standing at the highest platform out of reach of, well, every double jumper? XD

 

[Kinzer]

...Sawnik!

He's da fastest ting alive!

 

[sunshade]

By "stage bias", do you mean Meta Knight standing at the highest platform out of reach of, well, every double jumper? XD

The platforms stay within one jump of most characters until the time for them to leave comes around in which case they quickly leave. Meta Knight may very well be able to camp the highest platform however he will only be able to camp it for a few seconds.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hey, Big Blue would probably help Ike as well. His full jab combo would be beast for knocking people onto the track.

 

[sunshade]

Hey, Big Blue would probably help Ike as well. His full jab combo would be beast for knocking people onto the track.

I updated my list with this and some other info (I also made it look a bit better).

 

[buenob]

coughMETAKNIGHTcough...

he should belong in the "promotes air combat" category, and then that one should be bolded, italicized, AND underlined, and placed first, and then the rest should be put in a tiny font and have the "spoiler" tag around it...

 

[sunshade]

coughMETAKNIGHTcough...

he should belong in the "promotes air combat" category, and then that one should be bolded, italicized, AND underlined, and placed first, and then the rest should be put in a tiny font and have the "spoiler" tag around it...

Updated with more buenob.

Just a question but why would the stage helping meta knight make any real difference to the legality of it? So long as a stage does not cause a single degenerate tactic to be the only way to play such as circle camp than why does it matter?

 

[deepseadiva]

Just a question but why would the stage helping meta knight make any real difference to the legality of it? So long as a stage does not cause a single degenerate tactic to be the only way to play such as circle camp than why does it matter?

In the grand scheme of things, no.

But realistically, it will have an affect. Same thing with Green Greens - the fact that it's considered a very good MK CP helped boost it's popularity. Big Blue screaming "plus I'm good for Meta Knight!" isn't going to win anybody over.

 

[Denzi]

Help:

, , , , , : would be at significantly less risk when fighting D3 of a being killed by a standing (or wario/bowser's cases ledge) chain grab.

But if D3 had stock lead (not too uncommon due to his weight) He could just infinite on a platform until it filles away, taking another of the opponents stocks. I would also assume he could achieve the same result with an Inhale + a jump onto the track, but that's not as easy to set up as a grab is.

, : Big Blue promotes air combat over land combat allowing these characters METAKNIGHT to function better.

With Peach, although her aerials are good, she's not really suited to prolonged air combat. She also has a difficult time landing as is (2nd floatiest character), so the constantly changing platforms can either be a help or a hindrance situationaly.

: his strong hits allow him to knock his foes onto the track without much issue.

: Most of the cars have a fin on the back causing her down throw to toss foes in front of her onto the track as opposed to behind her.

,: Snake's and Pikachu's projectiles function better than most other projectiles on this stage.

I can't see Snake's grenades being of as much here because of all the slopes. The disappearing platforms would also hurt his C4 and Mines.

I would also assume Pikachu is even more advantaged his QAC on this stage, granting him much better mobility than the majority of the cast on a stage like this.

Harm:

, , , : Chain grabs become near useless on this stage (although the cars with large fins are able to serve as walls for very short periods of times).

But D3's Standing infinate, Pika's Dthrow, and the IC's standing infinite can all be used as a suicide move when the character has the stock lead.

, , , : Projectiles become less useful on this stage during the phases that cause the stage to slant.

,: jab locks, laser locks, QAC locks all are completely useless on this stage. (this applies to all characters who enjoy using these types of locks.)

Comments in green.

I'm also unsure as to how this stage affects weight classes. I could see it either amplifying them or diminishing them, but I don't really know which.

 

[sunshade]

In the grand scheme of things, no.

But realistically, it will have an affect. Same thing with Green Greens - the fact that it's considered a very good MK CP helped boost it's popularity. Big Blue screaming "plus I'm good for Meta Knight!" isn't going to win anybody over.

Do the people who create the official stage list take into account silly little biases such as public hate of meta knight?

 

[infomon]

Do the people who create the official stage list take into account silly little biases such as public hate of meta knight?

Probably. But we can't know, because they keep their discussions hidden, and barely provide explanation of their decisions on anything.

And TOs everywhere just ignore the SBR anyway, because TOs tend to be even scrubbier.
Or rather, they only care about turnout, so they pander to the whiniest scrubs in the region so that turnout it maximized.

 

[Linkshot]

Except if you stand at the edge of any platform, you force being air released by everybody.

 

[sunshade]

But if D3 had stock lead (not too uncommon due to his weight) He could just infinite on a platform until it filles away, taking another of the opponents stocks. I would also assume he could achieve the same result with an Inhale + a jump onto the track, but that's not as easy to set up as a grab is.

it is very difficult to get an effective infinite on Big Blue due to the only place where one can be performed with consistency is on the large blue car making it not realistic in a match. The the smaller cars do not provide enough consistency to infinite on due to the constantly changing angle and each car being of different shape. The larger blue car only enters the match twice and when you are on it at the beginning you could simply run under the car and fight on the smaller cars causing the blue car to only be influential for for the brief period when it comes again randomly later in the match. Compared to other static stages where a standing infinite is always effective the one time chance to have a stock taken by an infinite on big blue is a major improvement.

With Peach, although her aerials are good, she's not really suited to prolonged air combat. She also has a difficult time landing as is (2nd floatiest character), so the constantly changing platforms can either be a help or a hindrance situationaly.

I dont know much about peach so I am going to take your word for it. Any suggestions on how the statement should be edited?

I can't see Snake's grenades being of as much here because of all the slopes. The disappearing platforms would also hurt his C4 and Mines.

Most projectiles are significantly gimped by Big Blue however I saw snake's grenades as being slightly less effected by it due to their versatility compared to other projectiles. Snake's CF would be better placed on the three cars in my opinion due to them being able to shift around causing the CF to be a more difficult element to track.

I would also assume Pikachu is even more advantaged his QAC on this stage, granting him much better mobility than the majority of the cast on a stage like this.

I bet that Pikachu's QAC allows him to move around the stage well however I was referring to how Pikachu locks opponents with it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2PPUh5if2U). The use of the QAC for movement however strikes me as a double edged sword due to a mistake causing you to enter the free fall animation and if you land on the track it may result in the loss of a stock.

But D3's Standing infinate, Pika's Dthrow, and the IC's standing infinite can all be used as a suicide move when the character has the stock lead.

An infinite ending with a death on both parties if anything would be an improvement for those being chain grabbed. Lets say King D3 is preforming a standing infinite on an opponent. The end result of this infinite will be a down tilt or throw or some other kill move resulting in the victims death. If that same scenario were to take place on the platforms than it would end with both players dieing causing a significant gain to the victim compared to an infinite on a regular stage.

(I added in a note about Pikachu to the list and I noticed that I did not italicize meta knight so I had to fix that for buenob's reading pleasure)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Don't leave out G&W being a beast when discussing Big Blue x3
Such a good stage for him, probably better than RC (or about as good as RC), but still overshadowed by Norfair and some other questionable stages.

 

[sunshade]

Don't leave out G&W being a beast when discussing Big Blue x3
Such a good stage for him, probably better than RC (or about as good as RC), but still overshadowed by Norfair and some other questionable stages.

What about Big Blue makes it such a good stage for G&W? What tactic does the stage improve for him or hinder less for him and more for others?

Edit: adding in the pro/cons table so people dont have to scroll to a past page if I update it.


Help:

, , , , , : would be at significantly less risk when fighting D3 of a being killed by a standing (or wario/bowser's cases ledge) chain grab.

, : Big Blue promotes air combat over land combat allowing Peach, Jigglypuff, Pit, Game and watch and METAKNIGHT to function better.

: strong, high priority hits allow them to knock their foes around the stage or onto the track without much issue.

: Most of the cars have a fin on the back causing her down throw to toss foes in front of her onto the track as opposed to behind her.

,: Snake's and Pikachu's projectiles function better than most other projectiles on this stage.

Snake's down throw is great on the cars due to the options of the person being grabbed being even more limited due to minimal roll distance. The fins on the car also allow snake to preform his down throw ledge infinite until the cars bump you out of position or allow the person being grabbed to land on solid land. (it is a ledge infinite right? If not correct me)

: Quick attack allows fast movement around the stage.

Harm:

, , , : Chain grabs become near useless on this stage (although the cars with large fins are able to serve as walls for very short periods of times).

, , , : Projectiles become less useful on this stage during the phases that cause the stage to slant.

,: jab locks, laser locks, QAC locks all are completely useless on this stage. (this applies to all characters who enjoy using these types of locks.)

 

[Kinzer]

What may make it a good G&W stage is that few characters have the aerial prowess to directly challenge things like G&W's Bair/Uair/Dair/Nair (to an extent). Seeing as how the majority of your time would be spent in the air... yeah... it's no fun to having to move around a Turtle, which should be easier said than done.

 

[bobson]

Dedede's dthrow on the edge of a car is lethal here to those he can't chaingrab. I'd imagine it's similar for Wolf's and Sonic's as well as any other low-arcing attack or throw. Grab releases onto the road are also pretty powerful.

Also, sometimes you will just inexplicably die with no warning. I'm not sure if there's a video, but I've seen it happen personally twice and seen several reports of it from others.

 

[MysticKenji]

There is a video of that somewhere, I think it's on these boards.

Edit: Here it is (2:07) and here's another