Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

(I was making a joke that Sonic's only viable winning tactic is circle camping)

I hate internet at times when you cannot pick up on jokes like that.

 

[sunshade]

I would like to divert back to the topic of custom stages in tournaments for a moment because I am astounded that the introduction of custom stages had not been integrated into competitive brawl sooner.

From my understand stages are banned for over centralizing the meta game and causing it to become a degenerate contest were both players have no choice but to engage in one method of play if they have serious hopes to win. To deal with this we ban stages for encouraging such tactics in the hopes that the stages left over will result in a more diverse meta game due to it not be focused on a single tactic being the path to victory. Unluckily for us we are not able to change things in game that cause degenerate play on stages but instead we are stuck with two options of keep or ban. Which makes me wonder why custom stages have not taken a place in the game?

Custom stages bring many positive aspects to the game such as allowing us to test a stage in a competitive environment and determine how particular aspects of a stage influence the battle. Once a flaw is discovered in the stage such as circle camping, above average incentive to plank, or over centralized combat based on certain aspects of combat such as air, ground, or grab games, custom stages present us with the unique opportunity to resolve them and allow the game to continue to develop in a non degenerate path.

The only flaw I can see with custom stages is that it may be difficult to prevent cheating in tournaments such as making very minor alteration to stages to allow degenerate tactics. Hopefully watchful TO will be able to prevent this for the most part, but cheating will always occur if there is incentive to cheat sadly.

 

[infomon]

My problem with custom stages is that they mean randoms are explicitly disadvantaged. You can't just show up to a tournament and expect to play Brawl -- you're now expected to have downloaded and studied an extra set of stages that aren't included in the game. Seems kinda ridiculous to me, considering how small (and diminishing) the competitive brawl scene is.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Why is PictoChat legal but not bridge of Eldin?

 

[Linkshot]

Why is PictoChat legal but not bridge of Eldin?

Is this an honest question or a troll?

In any case: Eldin has walkoffs and no platforms. D3 100:0's most of the cast here.
PictoChat is legal because it is arguably one of the most neutral stages in Brawl. The turnoff is the 6 hazards, sadly.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Oh, I feel like a tard.... I forgot, and Falco can do it too. ok, my friend has asked me that all year so I really wanted to know. Thanks! So we are forced use stages that move and have hazards now (Delfino, Halberd, Picto) dang... That kinda stinks.

 

[Linkshot]

Not forced; suggested.

PictoChat will only kill you if you 100% ignore the stage, really.

 

[FatJackieChan]

well true, I mean they are forced to suggest it. Sakurai did a wonderful job with the stages. And for the record, I hate Lylat.

 

[Linkshot]

Sakurai did a wonderful job with making a balanced party game. Nothing competitive was in mind.

 

[FatJackieChan]

I guess that is true... I feel neglected by him now. and I still hate Lylat.

 

[Linkshot]

Brawl feels intense when playing in a tournament, but as soon as you turn on the "wacky" stuff, you see how great the game really is

 

[buenob]

^ the reason other fighting game players think smashers are weird

to be honest, the whole starter/counter list is a pretty difficult concept for a lot of people to get on board with (not to mention stage striking)... it is definitely the most balanced way to do it, but I was recently at a 24 hr lan tournament where they had a brawl event, and since I knew the organizers they got me to send them off the official rule list for brawl (last year's was a disaster of item lolz)... i eventually convinced them of this crazy "stage striking" but only for the neutrals, I didn't even bother trying to explain the CP system...

ps. we're now at a point with brawl where the difference between knowing the game and not means you can completely (and I mean completely) dominate your opponent (just like melee)... I lost one stock through the whole tournament up to the finals (one guy could even dacus, and there were an abundance of MK players)

 

[Linkshot]

^ The reason I want a liberal stage list.

I want to be able to apply my vast knowledge of stages, since I should be allowed to have that advantage over others.

 

[Hyesz]

Why is PictoChat legal but not bridge of Eldin?

Pictochat is legal?!

 

[Linkshot]

Of course it's legal.

Learn about the stage and play on it with that knowledge, then you will see it's a fair stage.

Do not just go "I'm simply going to judge it by its cover before reading it, and hope everybody does the same to look like we have experience."

 

[Hyesz]

Of course it's legal.

Learn about the stage and play on it with that knowledge, then you will see it's a fair stage.

Do not just go "I'm simply going to judge it by its cover before reading it, and hope everybody does the same to look like we have experience."

Oh. I've always complained that it's not legal.

I never knew it actually was.

It's my favorite stage, I'm gonna start picking it more.

 

[buenob]

pictochat is _not_ "of course it's legal" worthy... it is, and should always remain, in the counter/banned list...

lately it is being played on more often

 

[bobson]

Pictochat should be an "of course its legal" stage.

 

[GwJ]

Brinstar should be an "of course it's not legal" stage.

 

[Hyesz]

Pictochat should be an "of course its legal" stage.

I fail to see how this makes sense but then again, Pictochat isn't as gay as Pokemon Stadium 2.

 

[deepseadiva]

Just concerning the custom stage topic, I have to cosign with this opinion:

My problem with custom stages is that they mean randoms are explicitly disadvantaged. You can't just show up to a tournament and expect to play Brawl -- you're now expected to have downloaded and studied an extra set of stages that aren't included in the game. Seems kinda ridiculous to me, considering how small (and diminishing) the competitive brawl scene is.

My only question is how do other games deal with custom "things"? I know Overswarm brought up... Starcraft or something as an example where custom elements were already standard.

 

[Linkshot]

Brinstar should be an "of course it's legal" stage.

There is nothing (0) at all wrong with Brinstar.

 

[Kinzer]

(I was making a joke that Sonic's only viable winning tactic is circle camping)

Excuse me, but we also have Homing Attack Stalling (which should not be banned because many characters can counter it, and spotdodge is not that counter), and the power of the Steaksauce to lead us to victory.

Also what's wrong with Pokeymangz Stadium II? I see nothing wrong with it except the wind stage which is but a temporary transformation.

 

[Linkshot]

Pokemon Stadium 2 is an extremely odd stage...I think it benefits Yoshi the most, though.
(This could be due to the gimmick that using Egg Roll on the conveyor belts should power it up, but it also compliments Yoshi's amazing air game with both the Flying and Ice stages. As well, the Ground stage seems perfectly carved for Yoshi's Egg Toss)

 

[Delta-cod]

Actually, Egg Roll's damage/knockback relies on speed. Sure, you can go with the conveyor belts, but you'll fall off stage and die. Going against them is counter productive. Everything else is pretty accurate, though.

 

[fkacyan]

Of course it's legal.

Learn about the stage and play on it with that knowledge, then you will see it's a fair stage.

Do not just go "I'm simply going to judge it by its cover before reading it, and hope everybody does the same to look like we have experience."

This is an excellent way to discount potentially valid arguments; clearly you have more experience than every dissenter!

 

[bobson]

I fail to see how this makes sense but then again, Pictochat isn't as gay as Pokemon Stadium 2.

I use a short series of questions to determine whether a stage should be legal or not:
1. Is there a single (or small set of) character or strategy with an overwhelming advantage on this stage?
2. Will it cause a tournament match to time out nearly 100% of the time?
3. Is it capable of producing a fair match (IE: the more skilled player will win 95% of the time)?

If the answers are clearly no, no, and yes respectively, it's an "of course it should be legal" stage.

 

[Linkshot]

Hence the Egg Roll Glitch on Frigate Orpheon.

That was awesome.

The Yoshi Egg Roll'd during the flip to OHKO his opponent (and survived plummeting!)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I use a short series of questions to determine whether a stage should be legal or not:
1. Is there a single (or small set of) character or strategy with an overwhelming advantage on this stage?
2. Will it cause a tournament match to time out nearly 100% of the time?
3. Is it capable of producing a fair match (IE: the more skilled player will win 95% of the time)?

If the answers are clearly no, no, and yes respectively, it's an "of course it should be legal" stage.

Great!

Will people PLEASE stop whining about Pirate Ship then? Neither Ike or G&W have an "overwhelming" advantage here. Both are perfectly beatable.

Characters that like this stage:

Ike
G&W
Ganondorf
Ness
Lucas
DK
Toon Link
Link
Zelda
Wario
Meta Knight
Jigglypuff

And that's just off the top of my head. Anyone with a spike/great air game should love this stage. All of these characters are beatable there to boot as well, despite loving the stage. And obviously the stage rarely ends with the clock reaching zero. That happens at Rainbow Cruise more then at Pirate Ship. And it's obviously fair and the skilled player will win, as you always have time to avoid hazards unless forced into them by the opponent (and thus due to skill).

Looks like most areas are going to have to man up and accept real stages.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hence the Egg Roll Glitch on Frigate Orpheon.

That was awesome.

The Yoshi Egg Roll'd during the flip to OHKO his opponent (and survived plummeting!)

Can I get a video of him surviving? I've seen one of him plummeting to death, and that itself was awesome. If we can get him to survive, I may just start loving Frigate now. >_<

Yoshi also likes Pirate Ship, at least in my opinion. The water helps him, and he can actually do neat things with the water physics, mainly egging the person which causes them to fall back into the water, then repeating for nice damage. They deal with Ike and G&W's water tricks as well. =D

 

[Linkshot]

Oh, he must've plummeted to death then D:

I'm quite sure it can be timed to kill and be survived..initiate the break-out just as you hit the opponent, and you should gain momentum soon enough to at least grab the ledge...though this is theory.

is a beast.

 

[Delta-cod]

Oh, he must've plummeted to death then D:

I'm quite sure it can be timed to kill and be survived..initiate the break-out just as you hit the opponent, and you should gain momentum soon enough to at least grab the ledge...though this is theory.

is a beast.

It's a theory that's really hard to test because we have to sit around and wait for the stage to flip, and even then there's human error to account for. =/

It should be possible if you always do it to the left, since there is ALWAYS a ledge to the left.

 

[Linkshot]

Delta, the great thing about that is it more lethal to the left XD

Moving with the stage = more speed = more ****.

Make eggs, Throw eggs, BULLDOZE EGGS

 

[Delta-cod]

Delta, the great thing about that is it more lethal to the left XD

Moving with the stage = more speed = more ****.

Make eggs, Throw eggs, BULLDOZE EGGS

I'm actually not 100% familiar with Frigate, so I didn't know that Rolling that way went with the stage. XD

But that makes it even better! =O

I'd assume that going to the right is actually weak, then, if you're going against the stage, because of how Egg Roll works. But this is just more theorycrafting.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm sure it's still a OHKO. The stage takes, what? 5 frames to fully flip?

 

[sunshade]

Could someone give me the stated reason for Big Blues banned status? I played a few friendlies on it and I will admit it felt a bit "janky" but nothing on it seems imbalanced or random causing it to be noncompetitive.

 

[Technodeath]

i think it's just the road underneath the stage, underneath the cars i should say, it's a little too easy to get killed from that

 

[Linkshot]

It's a little too easy to survive to be instant banned. This isn't Melee~

 

[buenob]

argh... big blue is banned because it's a terrible level... for large amounts of time you can circle camp, and much of the level becomes a death-trap for most of the time... i'm not saying you die, but if you fall off and are recovering against a good player you _will_ die...

please we need to have some kind of "this level has been proven to be banned for these reasons" thread for the ones even everyone HERE agrees should be absolutely banned (this is the most liberal thread lol)

 

[Linkshot]

Keyword: Against a Good Player.

Now, if a Good Player is recovering against another Good Player, they have an equal shot.

Also, it has been proven the match cannot end in circling.