Official Stage Legality Discussion

[sunshade]

Dedede's dthrow on the edge of a car is lethal here to those he can't chaingrab. I'd imagine it's similar for Wolf's and Sonic's as well as any other low-arcing attack or throw. Grab releases onto the road are also pretty powerful.

I will look into how Dedede's throw works on those who cannot be chain grabbed. But I thought that a grab release on the edge of a car result in an air break?

Also, sometimes you will just inexplicably die with no warning. I'm not sure if there's a video, but I've seen it happen personally twice and seen several reports of it from others.

I have seen this happen as well but unlike the video in Meno's thread it only happened when a player was pushed under a car while the car was trying to move downwards (what appears to have happened in MysticKenji's second video link). I terms of the video in Meno's thread (first video linked by MysticKenji) I think that the death was promoted by Ness's attack but I don't know for certain.

On a separate note I tried to test the kill percents on Big Blue compared to Final Destination.
I first went onto Final Destination (training mode so no moves were stale) as snake with jigglypuff as my opponent. I then increased Jigglypuff's damage until snakes up tilt would kill her (82% no DI). I then did the same with Bowser (113% no DI) than averaged the two numbers which gave me 97.5%. After getting Final Destinations kill percent average I went to Big Blue and attempting the same thing. Unfortunately for me Big Blue has different kill percentages based on how the stage is tilting so I ended up getting two different numbers for both Jigglypuff and Bowser based on if the stage was tilted or flat. The first number will be the percent that kills when the cars are flat and the second number will be the percent that will always kill (assuming no DI) regardless of stage position.

FD Vs. BB kill percents (assuming a not stale up tilt and no DI)

--------Jigglypuff kill percent----Bowser kill percent---Average kill percent
---FD-----------82%--------------------113%-------------------97.5%--------
---BB--------84%-92%---------------117%-132%-----------106.25%-------

The difference between killing off the top on Big Blue and Final Destination despite it feeling like more turns out to be only 8.75% (If someone could preform the same test but take DI into account it would give more realistic numbers).

 

[Kinzer]

I will look into how Dedede's throw works on those who cannot be chain grabbed. But I thought that a grab release on the edge of a car result in an air break?

Not if a pummel is timed right to force a ground/low-release.

 

[buenob]

that's for a move with incredibly high nockback... for many characters the KO difference will be much more substantial than 9 percent

 

[bobson]

that's for a move with incredibly high nockback... for many characters the KO difference will be much more substantial than 9 percent

What? How exactly are you coming to this conclusion? If x - y equals 9, it's going to equal 9 regardless of whether x is 10 and y is 1 or x is 100 and y is 91. Snake's utilt will kill Jiggs 9% later as will Fox's usmash as will Bowser's uair as will Mario's dtilt.

 

[sunshade]

Dedede's dthrow on the edge of a car is lethal here to those he can't chaingrab.

I just did some testing on Dedede's down throw at the edges of the stage (cars). What I have come to discover is that Dedede when preforming a down throw at the right side of the stage will cause the opponent to go air born than either hit the stage if you are moving at an upwards slant or simply enter into the air and regain control in moderate safety (you are still off stage after all). In either scenario you have no threat of death due to the stage dragging you away because cars wills stop you or you could do the smart thing and jump.

The left side of the screen however has a neat little trick to it that works on every single character in the game. If Dedede down throws you while the stage is slanted down then the person being throw will hit the slant and die even if they tech the road. Now this sounds really bad however this effect only happens when the stage is as slanted as possible, otherwise they become air born and regain control. In addition to there being only one phase where it is slanted enough for this to occur and the phases being as far as we currently know random it is impossible to plan for this to work with any accuracy. For this free kill to occur you would have to be on the left holding your opponent in a grab (which is difficult to land because of the cars often having strange shapes and the battles on Big Blue being mostly air based) and be lucky enough to have the exact phase you need to come along. So I suppose that Dedede's downthrow can provide a free gimp however this is terribly improbable and an obscenely easy situation to avoid.

Not if a pummel is timed right to force a ground/low-release.

I would imagine that a pummel break causes less frames in which you cant control yourself than Dedede's down throw does so I think that a forced ground break will be the same as a down throw that does not hit the slope. (I will look into it later)

 

[bobson]

I just did some testing on Dedede's down throw at the edges of the stage (cars). What I have come to discover is that Dedede when preforming a down throw at the right side of the stage will cause the opponent to go air born than either hit the stage if you are moving at an upwards slant or simply enter into the air and regain control in moderate safety (you are still off stage after all). In either scenario you have no threat of death due to the stage dragging you away because cars wills stop you or you could do the smart thing and jump.

In the tests I did the victim wasn't able to regain control until they'd hit the road and wasn't stopped by the cars at all, and this was when the track was flat. Who did you test with? I used Sheik.

 

[sunshade]

In the tests I did the victim wasn't able to regain control until they'd hit the road and wasn't stopped by the cars at all, and this was when the track was flat. Who did you test with? I used Sheik.

I tested with Metaknight. More important than the character tested on was the car tested on in my opinion because each car has its own mini-metagame.

in retro spec I should have worded that better because I was trying to imply that once you landed you would have no issue getting onto the cars again.

 

[infomon]

What? How exactly are you coming to this conclusion? If x - y equals 9, it's going to equal 9 regardless of whether x is 10 and y is 1 or x is 100 and y is 91. Snake's utilt will kill Jiggs 9% later as will Fox's usmash as will Bowser's uair as will Mario's dtilt.

I'm not convinced; I think buenob's probably right about this; even assuming no DI or momentum cancelling or anything.

It'd be simple to test though. Take a custom stage, and try kill %s for a move when at a platform along the bottom vs. a platform along the top, for two different kill moves (snake's Utilt vs, say, Sonic's). Or maybe find two KO moves, one strong vs. one weak, which both kill along the same vertical trajectory. Then see if the % difference for them to kill from the bottom platform is the same as killing from the top platform.

I'm 99% sure they won't be the same, although I don't remember the details of Brawl's knockback formulae.

 

[buenob]

dang, and here i was hoping you'd come in with your infzy-DI and set us straight lolz

anyway, I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the base damage * some multiplier for knockback... and I think that maybe move staling would only effect the damage, therefore reducing knockback as well...

that is a guess, so if anyone could test/point to where the real numbers are, that would be awesome (maybe some of the brawl+ community would know best)

 

[Kinzer]

@ Buenob: You're thinking of Melee.

Brawl's decay system has moves decay in both damage output AND knockback. It's the reason why things like falco's CG/ Pikachu's CGs, and etc work at all.

 

[bobson]

I'm not convinced; I think buenob's probably right about this; even assuming no DI or momentum cancelling or anything.

It'd be simple to test though. Take a custom stage, and try kill %s for a move when at a platform along the bottom vs. a platform along the top, for two different kill moves (snake's Utilt vs, say, Sonic's). Or maybe find two KO moves, one strong vs. one weak, which both kill along the same vertical trajectory. Then see if the % difference for them to kill from the bottom platform is the same as killing from the top platform.

Actually, now that I think of it, knockback growth would play a role. But knockback growth is independent of actual knockback, so it wouldn't explicitly be a greater percentage difference for characters who can't kill as well, and in some cases might be smaller. In your test, Mario's utilt killed 19% earlier on the upper platform of Battlefield while Snake's only killed 13% earlier.

 

[sunshade]

what is the weakest up tilt in the game that kills at the same angle as snakes up tilt? I figure if I take the average kill % between snakes up tilt and the weakest (like I did with Bowser/Jigs weight) I can find a more accurate number of the difference between Big Blue and Final Destination.

 

[bobson]

The weakest one I've found with an upward trajectory is Yoshi's, which only kills Jiggs on FD at 236%.

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214289&highlight=overswarm&page=16

Big Blue.

Look for big post.

 

['V']

Does anyone know exactly why Corneria is good for teams? It was never fully explained to me.

 

[Overswarm]

Does anyone know exactly why Corneria is good for teams? It was never fully explained to me.

Corneria isn't that great for teams. The main issue is that everyone always fights on the side to the right; this results in super close death.

This shouldn't be a problem, except the fin makes it impossible to approach safely in any conventional manner. This results in a lot of wall-related jankiness and a lot of zany cluster****s in that small space.

 

[sunshade]

So after reading Overswarm's post it resolved many questions for me on why Big Blue is banned however it opened many more questions about why Rumble Falls is banned. After playing on the stage for a few days, getting used to the terrain, tossing myself into spikes, and playing a few friendlies, I feel that Rumble falls is a stage that may be worthy competitive play. It does have a strange feel to it making it highly unique but I have yet to notice any major flaws but I was wondering about a few points in particular.

I noticed that in friendlies that my opponents played much cautiously when I used Dedede almost as if he was the ice climbers. This change in play style made me wonder how effective are chain grabs on this stage, do they allow Dedede or others to get frequent easy kills or is it just a misplaced fear?

I saw mention of circle stall being viable on this stage however I do not understand how it is possible to circle on Rumble Falls so I was wondering if anyone could give me clarification on how it would work if circle is even possible.

I noticed Overswarm's post was almost six months old so I was also wondering if there has been any change in his opinion on Rumble Falls.

 

[MK26]

just a note on rumble falls: the camera is completely stationary throughout the entire match. On the other hand, the stage (platforms, background, and all) scrolls downward, which results in the exact same movement as a camera moving upward except for one crucial fact: characters on the ground move with the stage, while characters disjoined from the ground stick with the camera. This is most easily seen with lengthy up-b's, such as G&W's and Peach's 'open' parachute/parasol (which both fall relative to the camera but rise relative to platforms), as well as DK's Spinning Kong (as previously noted).

The same 'static camera/dynamic stage' configuration can be seen on Rainbow Cruise, where D3 has a standing infinite on a much larger portion of the cast than normal while facing left (!) on the latter, upper portion of the stage.

 

[bobson]

Dedede's chaingrab isn't a big problem on Rumble Falls due to the camera movement mechanics MK26 mentioned. A lot of characters will move out of regrab range as the stage moves down, especially when it's in speed-up mode.

I've been working on a big writeup of Rumble Falls, but for a couple months now I haven't had time to work on anything of any significant scope, and I'm not sure how long that'll keep going on.

 

[buenob]

bobson - linkshot has done a _lot_ of testing, with me and with others, and by himself... if you need a start point, ask him

personally I don't think it's worth more testing... I find it falls under the category of "too foreign to bother with" but I'm pretty sure that there's a trend where levels that are commonly not played on end up proven to be totally borked when enough time is put into testing...

 

[bobson]

I'm positive that Rumble Falls has a snowball's chance in hell of ever being taken seriously anywhere no matter how many pages of arguments are made for it, but if I do a writeup I'll at least have a precompiled argument to throw at TOs so they'll have to waste their time dismissing it in a way that sounds good or risk looking like a jackass.

I'm pretty sure that there's a trend where levels that are commonly not played on end up proven to be totally borked when enough time is put into testing...

Funnily enough, I've experienced the exact opposite so far.

 

[Linkshot]

bobson, you forgot that Inui wrote off PictoChat as bannable on the same level as WarioWare simply because he didn't learn the stage enough, and then everybody followed him because they didn't learn it.

 

[Overswarm]

I wouldn't be against testing Rumble Falls.

I had to choose between Onett and Rumble Falls being potentials, as I didn't want both on my circuit. I chose Onett, as I believe it can be more easily learned.

 

[Linkshot]

Rumble Falls is the Rainbow Cruise for characters that have poor recoveries/horizontal movement.

 

[DanGR]

I'm positive that Rumble Falls has a snowball's chance in hell of ever being taken seriously anywhere no matter how many pages of arguments are made for it, but if I do a writeup I'll at least have a precompiled argument to throw at TOs so they'll have to waste their time dismissing it in a way that sounds good or risk looking like a jackass.

As ignorant as this sounds, I'd keep Rumble Falls banned simply because so few people actually want to play on the stage. That and it just gives Meta Knight players like me another auto-win stage. ;P

 

[Linkshot]

It's not an auto-win unless your opponent is extremely dumb

The uThrow is actually very situational.

 

[sunshade]

As ignorant as this sounds, I'd keep Rumble Falls banned simply because so few people actually want to play on the stage. That and it just gives Meta Knight players like me another auto-win stage. ;P

Stage dislike has absolutely nothing to do with its legality. My friend hates brinstar with a passion and will ban it regardless of it being the best or worst stage to ban. If enough people had the same mentality as my friend would we then ban brinstar? I hope not, because allowing people to simply act in a obstinate manor towards a stage and then be rewarded with banning the stage would result in tournaments set to Final Destination only or some other silly absolute.

Unless the stage gives Meta Knight a 99-1 match-up against the majority of the cast then a stage supporting a top tier character has nothing to do with its legality.

It's not an auto-win unless your opponent is extremely dumb

The uThrow is actually very situational.

I have heard of Meta Knights up throw having some abnormal advantage on this stage but I have yet to see a video of it.

I also read that Meta Knight on Pokemon Stadium two could 0-death people during the slow fall on the wind phase (I have not tested or seen this either but), does Rumble Falls have a similar effect to the point of being noteworthy?

 

[Overswarm]

I also read that Meta Knight on Pokemon Stadium two could 0-death people during the slow fall on the wind phase (I have not tested or seen this either but), does Rumble Falls have a similar effect to the point of being noteworthy?

He can. MK's tornado rises, so just an up-air or two on someone in the air followed by a tornado can kill at any %.

 

[sunshade]

He can. MK's tornado rises, so just an up-air or two on someone in the air followed by a tornado can kill at any %.

Could the same thing be preformed on Rumble Falls or is the upward pull of the stage not enough?

 

[bobson]

The upward pull isn't enough unless you're already near the top of the stage. And if Metaknight goes too high, he might land on a platform outside of the blastlines afterwards and kill himself.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

Spear Pillar a possibility?

I know it's unusual for someone who is new here to post in a thread discussing stage legality. And this topic has probably hit the table hundreds of times. But I would like to hear and be a part of the discussion of the legality of Spear Pillar.

In comparison to other stages. Spear Pillar really has few gimmicks that are considered unfair, or highly consequential to the end result of a match. For instance are the hyper beams, or even when Dialga or Palkia themselves take the stage. First, the hyper beams that pierce horizontally and vertically through the screen. These beams have more than obvious tell, and can also be simply blocked by the shield with minimal energy loss. The other offensive gimmick is Cresselia's lunar boomerangs which dash through the field in a fixed pattern. Next are the legendaries that jump onto the field, they too have incredible tell, and if they are unnoticed I feel that is a player's fault, not a stage's. These do have decent knockback, and they can be dangerous, but I feel that other fields hold even more interfering hazards.

Stages like Pictochat, and Pirate Ship, hold hazards that I've considered even more dangerous than Cresselia herself, such as the bombs fired at the ship in the Pirate Ship stage. Now those have obvious tell, I'll grant that, but the hit boxes can be unforgiving, not to mention if you're on the foul end of a spike into the water, and those couple of seconds wasted getting to the surface and jumping up aren't good enough, that bomb will be dead on. Now Pictochat has a wide array of events on the stage, ranging from a harmless gust of wind to missiles that have more than once both have hit me in one go from the knockback. I'm not saying that those are deadly enough to disprove Pictochat's legality, but comparing those hazards to Spear Pillar's, Spear Pillar is the Green Green's of a Kirby game in difficulty to keep up.

Now I may be mistaken, Spear Pillar may be banned for reasons other than the hazards. But honestly, the only non-offensive hazards are the time-slow, gravity decrease, and the direction swap. The time slow is something that shouldn't be an issue, no one character is slowed more than others. The gravity decrease is minimal, it might be something unusual, but it isn't anything alike to the upwards winds of Pokémon Stadium 2, so that shouldn't cause much issues either. The main problem would probably be the direction swap, but even then, correct me if I'm wrong, but only Palkia commits this action. Therefore only 1/3 of the time will this be an issue. And I too have found the control swap aggravating, but I never found it death instilling. Spear Pillar still holds some legitimacy as a balanced stage.

If you had not noticed, I am for Spear Pillar being up for at least a counter-pick. Just not entirely banned from official business in general. But in summation, through comparing how other stages are allowed despite the action and hazards on their stages, I find Spear Pillar is a bit more comfortable and less hectic than others. And thus, unless I'm fighting for an unknown cause, I'm not entirely sure, I just saw the list up on the first page, and that Spear Pillar is actually allowed, that is my argument and I hope that it is thought upon, if not disproven.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's banned for the cave of life and circle camping.

It will never be legal. Those are two insta-bans right there.

 

[sunshade]

KrayzeeGuy I commend your effort towards spear pillar however the flaw with the stage is not the hazards but the actual shape of it. Imagine if you will that you are hanging out with some friends and there is a circular table. You start messing with your friend and a little chase starts and you begin to run around the table. You and your friend are on opposite sides of the table and you now begin to mimic your friends movements (he or she goes left you left, he or she goes right you go right) assuming you move at the same speed or faster than your friend you can (assuming they don't go over the table or something) run away from your friend forever. Spear Pillar has this same table like scenario often refereed to as circle stall. Tournament matchs are often set with a 8 minute time and if it runs out you check stocks whoever has the stock advantage wins, if stock are the same the player with less damage wins. If a player runs up hits his opponent once (getting the damage advantage) then runs away around that table (the big chunk in the middle of spear pillar) he will win by default for getting a single hit. Stages that allow this are always banned and it is the main reason for Temple, and New Pork City's banning as well.

Hopefully that cleared things up and welcome to smashboards by the way.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

Ah, that's understandable then, thank you for your formality to my statements. Now it's completely understandable. I suppose if Spear Pillar were just one flat field instead of two, it wouldn't be banned.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

To add to it:

Cave of Life. Anyone with good enough DI + Teching skills hiding down below can simply hit the wall or floor and tech to not fly out an die, potentially living up to 999%, depending on the two characters.

 

[sunshade]

To add to it:

Cave of Life. Anyone with good enough DI + Teching skills hiding down below can simply hit the wall or floor and tech to not fly out an die, potentially living up to 999%, depending on the two characters.

I personally don't see the Cave of Life effect as being an instant ban. Luigi's mansion for example has a Cave of Life but has been played in tournaments. A Cave of Life can centralize the game to the point of being potentially degenerate but I personally have never seen someone live beyond 300% let alone until 999% due to the Cave's influence. I suppose if I played better myself or played other more experienced players then I may think differently but in my eyes a Cave of Life requires skill and timing while circle stall for example does not require significant skill or any timing.

(Note: I am not trying to say that Caves of Life are suitable for competitive play, I am just stating that they are not on the same level of degeneracy as circle stall)

 

[DanGR]

Stage dislike has absolutely nothing to do with its legality. My friend hates brinstar with a passion and will ban it regardless of it being the best or worst stage to ban. If enough people had the same mentality as my friend would we then ban brinstar? I hope not, because allowing people to simply act in a obstinate manor towards a stage and then be rewarded with banning the stage would result in tournaments set to Final Destination only or some other silly absolute.

Unless the stage gives Meta Knight a 99-1 match-up against the majority of the cast then a stage supporting a top tier character has nothing to do with its legality.

Why do you think we ban items?

It's simply because a vast majority of players did not like them. You can absolutely ban a stage because so few people enjoy the stage. If I'm running a tournament, I'm not going to allow dumb stages to be CPed in the name of "competitive justice," because I want people to actually like my tournaments. It comes down to preference.

 

[sunshade]

Why do you think we ban items?

It's simply because a vast majority of players did not like them. You can absolutely ban a stage because so few people enjoy the stage. If I'm running a tournament, I'm not going to allow dumb stages to be CPed in the name of "competitive justice," because I want people to actually like my tournaments. It comes down to preference.

Items are not banned because people simply do not like them. Items are banned because they are completely random and there is a very possible chance a bomb will spawn on me in a completely unavoidable way randomly causing me to lose the match and at the same moment an item needed by my opponent will spawn right in front of him conveniently.

In addition to that those so called "dumb stages" are completely subjective to your opinion or the opinion of the on looker. I love Pictochat, my friend hates Brinstar, I dislike Delfino, my friend loves Lylat. A stage being "dumb" is based on opinion, has no (none subjective) meaning to it, and does nothing to encourage people to come to your tournament if anything it makes people notwant to come to your tournament.

The tournament goer upon entering your tournament will see that stages are allowed or disallowed not based on if the stage is playable but instead based one person who has a personal vendetta with a given stage which chances are is based off of how the stage influences how his personal chance of winning in effect rigging the tournament towards that person. The tournament player might also wonder what will happen if some rule is called into question, will the TO listen to both sides fairly and unbiased? Or will the TO say your "dumb" and just ignore someone's opinion and result in screwing them over?

If I even see a TO banning stages because he or she felt like it (without giving me any reason for its banning other than its "dumb") then I am going to flat out leave.

 

[Linkshot]

Sadly, sunshade, for the one person that leaves (you), 20 top players will pour in. They refuse to play on stages they haven't learned because it jeopardises their chances of winning, and if they don't participate, nobody does.

They run a dictatorship, sadly.

 

[SuSa]

Luigi's (from what I've seen) has become doubles only. Also you can remove circle camping/cave of life by.. you know... destroying the pillars.... <_<

@Linkshot
Or we don't want to play on a stage where all we need to do is abuse the living hell out of the stage, or have it abused to hell against us to the point that we are fighting the stage more then the player.