Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Overswarm]

^scrub talk

It takes about 10 seconds of thinking to figure out how LMansion works, and you're "fighting the stage" no more than you're fighting battlefield's platforms.

 

[sunshade]

you can remove circle camping/cave of life by.. you know... destroying the pillars.... <_<

If an enemy takes the time to quit their advance on their opponent and attack a wall do you think that they will go unpunished? You can attack the walls on the mansion and they will eventually fall even if you don't actively attack them but I have seen the mansion only get fully destroyed once over the course of an entire match if both players disallow their foe to waste time on the pillars. During that period in which the mansion is built however there is a Cave of Life so a good portion of the match is under supposed instantly banned criteria.

Or we don't want to play on a stage where all we need to do is abuse the living hell out of the stage, or have it abused to hell against us to the point that we are fighting the stage more then the player.

Fighting the stage is a completely optional action. Stages work like a river and they flow in a direction and you can choose to go with the flow or purposely reject it. Some stages have stronger currents than others causing there to be only one viable tactic and get banned for it however others with a strong flow to them are allowed as counterpicks. If you are fighting the stage then you are swimming up stream while your opponent is swimming with it and the direction you choose to swim is of your own control. From my perspective saying that you are fighting the stage not the player is a more elegant way of saying its a "dumb" stage and you simply do not want to swim with the current.

Also out of personal interest what stage(s) in particular are you talking about that you have to abuse or be abused to play on?

 

[Linkshot]

Yes, SuSa.

Please derive a list, and I will tell you how the stage works, whether I think it's intense enough to be banned, and ways to work with/around the stage.

This shows a lot more sportsmanship than saying "I'm not going to spend time learning a stage, so I'm going to pioneer it to be banned."

I've done the exact opposite. I've taken a lot of time to learn many stages, and I'm pioneering them to be legal.

Sadly, the lazy way (not learning), seems to be favourable.

 

[sunshade]

Yes, SuSa.

Please derive a list, and I will tell you how the stage works, whether I think it's intense enough to be banned, and ways to work with/around the stage.

This shows a lot more sportsmanship than saying "I'm not going to spend time learning a stage, so I'm going to pioneer it to be banned."

I've done the exact opposite. I've taken a lot of time to learn many stages, and I'm pioneering them to be legal.

Sadly, the lazy way (not learning), seems to be favourable.

Taunting people is a great way to make your opinion seem childish and rude. I suggest you avoid it.

 

[Tesh]

KrayzeeGuy I commend your effort towards spear pillar however the flaw with the stage is not the hazards but the actual shape of it. Imagine if you will that you are hanging out with some friends and there is a circular table. You start messing with your friend and a little chase starts and you begin to run around the table. You and your friend are on opposite sides of the table and you now begin to mimic your friends movements (he or she goes left you left, he or she goes right you go right) assuming you move at the same speed or faster than your friend you can (assuming they don't go over the table or something) run away from your friend forever. Spear Pillar has this same table like scenario often refereed to as circle stall. Tournament matchs are often set with a 8 minute time and if it runs out you check stocks whoever has the stock advantage wins, if stock are the same the player with less damage wins. If a player runs up hits his opponent once (getting the damage advantage) then runs away around that table (the big chunk in the middle of spear pillar) he will win by default for getting a single hit. Stages that allow this are always banned and it is the main reason for Temple, and New Pork City's banning as well.

At least you can chase him around this table and you won't be harmed unless he turns around and fights you. He might even trip (*shrug*).

Now let us imagine that the floor on one side of this "table" is littered with thumbtacks and sharp rocks. But your friend can fly, glide, float or roll through the sky, so this isn't a problem for him. You however can only chase him while he is on the side of the table you can access with your abilities of walking, running and jumping. Now if this friend of yours is going to run away from you, do you want to chase him across solid safe ground that anyone can get to and have a chance of catching him (Spear pillar, Hyrule) or do you want half of the area he is using to avoid you to be unreasonably dangerous for you and most of your other friends. Not to mention that the 4 friends(snake,ICs, Wario, Diddy) that have a chance of beating this guy in a fight can't reach him on this side of the table anyway(since metaknight would be the obvious first choice example for stalling).

Why is circle camping brought up as a reason for stages like Spear Pillar, Hyrule Temple, Hanenbow (yes I know there are other reasons for these to be banned).

Isn't "circle camping" essentially what characters like Metaknight, Jigglypuff and Pit can do on every stage except Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium and Castle Siege? Isn't gliding under the stage a form of circle camping?

Is circle camping by flight less game breaking than circle camping on foot? Is it because being on solid ground makes this less committed/punishable or is it just because we can't slap a ledge grab rule on top of it and say its fixed?

tl;dr
Running away indefinitely is running away indefinitely.

 

[bobson]

Is circle camping by flight less game breaking than circle camping on foot?

No, but it's much easier to ban the tactic of flying underneath the stage repeatedly than it is to ban some abstract concept of "avoiding your opponent too much."

 

[Thirdkoopa]

It's banned for the cave of life and circle camping.

It will never be legal. Those are two insta-bans right there.

+ It's "Obstacles" Give you such little time to run. I was playing a friendly doubles match on that stage, controls flipped, and I ended up dieing while recovering.

I mean, at least Port Town gives some kind of warning and is direct + You know which platforms are safe If you actually spent time learning about it (That's just one example) but SP's? Yeah; Keep it banned.

As for rumble falls: I use to be a bit more against it, but after playing it yesterday I really don't know. It's around the same speed as RC Discluding the "Speed Up's!" But It may have abused disadvantages. It could be a very useful CP for those with mediocre recovery, but I personally believe RF Needs more testing.

 

[DanGR]

It's really silly to ban Luigi's Mansion purely because of circle camping.

You can do the same thing, but more easily with Meta Knight on other stages that are legal.

And if you ban the circle camping on the starters, it would in turn be banned on Luigi's Mansion, which in effect would keep Luigi's Mansion an alright stage.

My solution? Ban Meta Knight.
/kids

 

[sunshade]

Is circle camping by flight less game breaking than circle camping on foot? Is it because being on solid ground makes this less committed/punishable or is it just because we can't slap a ledge grab rule on top of it and say its fixed?

tl;dr
Running away indefinitely is running away indefinitely.

The degree of danger placed on the person running away is significantly smaller when fleeing on foot. If someone is running away on foot their worst threat is tripping which is a threat even when not circle stalling. If the player is using a very powerful recovery to flee under the stage they have eliminated the threat of tripping but they face a much more dangerous enemy called the point of no return. While flying away under the stage the fleeing foe will eventually get to the point where he has limited or no jumps left and will be forced to move towards the nearest edge or fall and die. If someone is stalling under the stage against me I follow their movement under the stage but I am constantly waiting for them to hit the point of no return and be forced to move towards an edge. This opportunity will come far more often than the 1 in 100 chance of tripping and it is punishable with a gimp and results with a loss of stock unlike a trip which results in 1-2 regular hits.

Both forms of circle stall are degenerate and unsportsmanlike but circle stall under the stage is the lesser of two evils and can be put in check by the ledge grab limit rules and an observant opponent. If I plan to circle camp I want leave zero chances of my opponent regaining the lead and circle camping on land unlike camping under the stage has near no risk and cannot be prevented by any method other than banning a stage or training judges to watch matches (which opens up room for out of game bias which I refuse to accept).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you run from your opponent on Luigi's Mansion, they can easily destroy it. If you chase them down to prevent them from destroying it, they lose the need to destroy it. It works either way; you just have to be adaptable and smart about positioning.

 

[infomon]

Wait, since when is MK flying under the stage a ban-worthy tactic?

 

[Linkshot]

Since Bowser can't do anything to stop him?

 

[sunshade]

Wait, since when is MK flying under the stage a ban-worthy tactic?

Tesh was asking the question if flying under the stage is a form circle stall and if so is it ban-worthy like stage induced circle stall.

I will say that I personally do not view stalling under the stage as legitimate criteria for banning due to the risk of stalling under the stage being very large and the reward being minimal in the short term.

 

[Linkshot]

There's risk in everything, though. You can risk getting mindgames by a Pikachu during normal circle stall, but that doesn't make it not-bannable.

Looks like SBR's gonna pick this up and run with it.

Only starter: Yoshi's.

 

[DanGR]

Yoshi's shouldn't even be a starter in the first place. *shrugs*

Wait, since when is MK flying under the stage a ban-worthy tactic?

It hasn't been proven to be an overcentralizing tactic yet. Too bad so few people actually have the guts to test it out in tournaments though.

 

[SuSa]

Hey Linkshot,
I hope you realize I'm for Onett, Yoshi's Island Melee, and Dreamland to all be CP's. Same with Port Town Aero Dive and a few other stages.

What I'm saying, is the banned stages usually have their reasons.

EDIT:
@OS
You're a ****ing idiot.

 

[Linkshot]

M2K would. He totally has the tech skill.

Yoshi's Island (Melee) is the stage out of all of those I want allowed the most. Next would be Onett or Green Greens.

Port Town's hazard is kinda devastating. People compare it to the Warlock Punch, but...well, Warlock Punch is one small hitbox that doesn't last long.


But I 80% support Rumble Falls. I never have a degenerate match on it.

 

[bobson]

It's largely impossible to punish a Metaknight for going under the stage over and over unless they make a mistake or you're using someone who can run fast enough to beat their glide, and that's only about a fifth of the roster. And if you can beat him to the edge, then you have to hope your character has the tools to combat Metaknight offstage, which is an even smaller set of characters.

PTAD's cars are really a non-issue. I pick this stage a lot in friendlies when I can get away with it and I only ever get hit by the cars if I'm not paying attention to the match. There's only one section where you can't see them coming from literally a mile away, and there's an obvious safety area in that section.

 

[sunshade]

I was reading Susa's thread "Common Knowledge that isn't so common.." and I was astounded that pirate ship is a counter-pick stage after reading the post by Xeylode and kitamerby that was linked by Susa. I went to test what was said by Xeylode/kitamerby and using the tactic of staying under the ship it is near impossible for characters who cannot preform the dive to beat an opponent who can if down a stock.

The only thing that can stop this tactic is if the rock comes or the hurricane comes. If the rock comes then the player can flee across the ship and risk getting hit for maybe 5-6 seconds and then hide under the rock. If the hurricane comes then the player has a legitimate chance to fight however this window of time to fight comes randomly and I plan to look into how often it occurs on average in an eight minute match.

If Yoshi is in water, he can immediately jump and than perform DownB. If done correct, he will dive bomb underwater as if he perfomed DownB high in the air.

On Pirate Ship this can be applied for a method of stalling. Since Yoshi will not actually die when he does this underwater, he will simply fall to almost the bottom of the screen, but then start to swim up at the last second. When he is swimming you are in essence untoucheable because no one can hit you from that far down underwater until you get towards the surface. But this is not the stalling method.

Go the rear of the pirate ship and swim to the very back end of it. Perform what I mentioned above, and when yoshi is swimming back upwards, tilt the control stick slightly to the left, then let go and have yoshi just keep swimming upwards. If you go to far left the ship will simply kill you like the front end does. If you do not tilt enough, you will simply pop up to the surface, you go the correct distance, yoshi will get caught underneath some lip at the bottom of the boat and will just stall underneath the lip of the ship.

Since you do not drown when swimming back the he surface yoshi can stay here indefinitly (or until the ship gets hit by th hurricane or hits the rock). And as I mentioned before, no one can hit you below the stage when you are that far down under. I've done this before and it's really gay to use on someone.

That reminds me. Captain Falcon will suicide if he attempts to dive underwater with jump to downB on Pirate Ship. He just goes too far down.

The characters that can dive under the pirate ship rudder are Ganondorf(downB), Falcon(downb), Game and Watch(dair), Pikachu(upB), Sonic(dair), ZSS(dair), Sheik(dair), ICs(dair), and Yoshi(downB) iirc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wario can too if he bites someone, I guess.

They can also dive under that big rock when it appears and the ship crashes into it. It's actually hollow. If you dive under it, you can actually jump up while inside it and attack people on the rock. If you watch a GnW fight on Pirate Ship, you'll usually see them going under the rock whenever possible.

 

[SuSa]

Too bad it's considered stalling and will get you DQ'd. :3

 

[bobson]

Abusing the rudder falls under the purview of stalling, like Metaknight's IDC.

 

[sunshade]

Too bad it's considered stalling and will get you DQ'd. :3

Circle stall is stalling and should get you DQ'd but we ban stages due to them promoting circle stall how is this different? If we look at Pirate Ship and simply say that you will be DQ'd then I demand that all stages that promote circle stall be legal because on those stages we can just DQ the person stalling as well.

 

[SuSa]

It's harder to tell when someone is circle camping then it is to tell when someones in an impossible to reach spot. -_-

Turns out common sense isn't so common after all.

 

[bobson]

Circle stalling is very hard to make a rule against without it having arbitrary limits. What if I'm running around in circles, but I'm also shooting lasers at my opponent? Is that stalling? What if I run around three times but then hit my opponent once? What if I'm arrow looping with Pit or dropping nades with Snake? What if I double back? Technically they could've hit me if they'd predicted that, so is that stalling? A TO would have to be present for every match and tournament results would be dictated by the TO's arbitrary judgement calls of what is and isn't "stalling."

Rudder stalling, on the other hand, is very easy to identify and stop. There's an objective difference between being under the rudder and not being under the rudder that makes it very easy to call out.

Edit: God****it Susa, quit that

 

[sunshade]

It's harder to tell when someone is circle camping then it is to tell when someones in an impossible to reach spot. -_-

It may be harder to tell when someone is circle stalling as opposed to being in an impossible to reach spot however they are both allowed by the stage and if a player is capable of using the rudder to stall then a player will regardless of the rules. A TO cannot watch every match and throw out a disqualification when necessary however if the stage were to be banned then it would be near impossible to cheat and from the way I see it if you are not cheating you are not trying hard enough.

Turns out common sense isn't so common after all.

An insult at my personal intelligence is irrelevant to this discussion and does nothing other than cause you to appear to be smug.

 

[deepseadiva]

Turns out common sense isn't so common after all.

Hey.

Be nice.

 

[bobson]

It may be harder to tell when someone is circle stalling as opposed to being in an impossible to reach spot however they are both allowed by the stage and if a player is capable of using the rudder to stall then a player will regardless of the rules. A TO cannot watch every match and throw out a disqualification when necessary however if the stage were to be banned then it would be near impossible to cheat and from the way I see it if you are not cheating you are not trying hard enough.

Someone goes under the rudder. I say "Hey! This dude's stalling!" A TO comes over. He either gets out from under the rudder, or he gets DQed.

Someone starts circle stalling. I say "Hey! This dude's stalling!" A TO comes over. He either stops, or he maybe gets DQed, depending on the TO's mood and how much the TO likes him. Maybe he just shoots a laser at me sometimes and that's okay. Also, I might get DQed myself for "not approaching," if I pissed the TO off before.

 

[Linkshot]

The thing is that running away isn't banned. It's stalling the timer, sure, but that's a legitimate strategy.

Circle Stalling is when the stage is built in such a way that when you're doing this, you win. It becomes an overpowered strategy.

You can do this on SMASHVILLE if you're savvy enough, but it's not guaranteed like Spear Pillar.

 

[sunshade]

Someone goes under the rudder. I say "Hey! This dude's stalling!" A TO comes over. He either gets out from under the rudder, or he gets DQed.

Someone starts circle stalling. I say "Hey! This dude's stalling!" A TO comes over. He either stops, or he maybe gets DQed, depending on the TO's mood and how much the TO likes him. Maybe he just shoots a laser at me sometimes and that's okay. Also, I might get DQed myself for "not approaching," if I pissed the TO off before.

You pointed out why we have to ban stages that suffer from circle stalling due to TO bias but you did not write in the possible ways a TO can be biased if someone is using the rudder to stall.

Lets say you are fighting a friend of the TO and you are not on good grounds with the TO to begin with. You call out "Hey! This dude's stalling!" and the TO begins to walkover. Before the TO even gets a chance to view the match he will see two things, you and his friend. So the TO nonchalantly strolls over to the screen but just before he gets there or while he is just getting there your foe moves out from under the rudder but stays in the water and the TO continues on to ask what the issue is and because the TO is bias he asks his friend first. The friend says "I am fighting in the water and he is calling it stalling" and the TO then says to you "water camping is not stall learn to play" you respond to this with "he was placing himself under the rudder and just waiting there" the TO then says (regardless of weather or not he knows stalling under the rudder is possible) "you cannot get under the ship, if you go under it you die instantly" then walks off. The match continues on and you lose the match due to it timing out and the friend calls the TO over to check the screen just to make sure the match is recorded as his win.

If Pirate ship was not legal then the TO's bias would not even be a factor to consider in this scenario.

 

[Hyesz]

You can ignore the stalling but you can't ignore the bombs that do 8347998% a hit.

Man, I have to check an up to date list on CP Stages.

Green Greens, anyone? ;D

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Bombs arent hard to avoid. Learn the stage :/. I never get hit by the bombs If I play at my best in pirate ship. NEVER EVER. Same thing goes for norfair. Just pay attention to all the stuff it really isnt so hard. U can pay attention to ur opponent AND stage obstacles at the same time :/.

 

[Hyesz]

I can avoid them, assuming there's nothing hitting me into them.

But avoiding a GOOD opponent and the bombs is pretty hard.

Nothing's stopping your opponent CG'n you into them or something for an easy win.

 

[Linkshot]

Sunshade.

Start/Pause button.

Learn to use it.

Pause, shift camera to him (unresricted camera hack preferred), call a TO over, then unpause.

 

[sunshade]

Sunshade.

Start/Pause button.

Learn to use it.

Pause, shift camera to him (unresricted camera hack preferred), call a TO over, then unpause.

I want the TO's personal bias to have as little influence on the tournament results as possible. So long as you do not show up later or verbally/physically abuse another person then I want your personal chance at victory to be perfectly equal to others in the tournament and Pirate Ship is a stage that has enough wiggly room to allow degenerate tactics to slip by.

Not all Wiis will have the unrestricted camera hack and if they do not then the person water camping could simply make the claim that he or she is swimming back up after being struck down by a foes attack. The camera if unhacked wont be able to move to a proper position to show the person stalling under the rudder and you will be forced to unpause to display the scene. If you unpause they can simply hold right then float up as if their story is legitimate.

Or on the flipside lets say a person is struck down into the water and just happens to catch the lip of the rudder. The other player pauses it immediately then calls a TO over to get the person struck down DQ'd. The TO then can simply ignore the persons story that they were hit down and just happened to get stuck and ban the innocent player.

Pirate Ship allows cheating and unbeatable stall which may or may not be stopped by a bias TO. If Pirate Ship was banned altogether then the TO's power to make false charges will be reduced and the game will become both more fair and just.

 

[Linkshot]

Or, y'know, there doesn't need to be a DQ because you pause right away, get the TO to stop them, and then no stalling occurred.

 

[sunshade]

Or, y'know, there doesn't need to be a DQ because you pause right away, get the TO to stop them, and then no stalling occurred.

Unless a TO sits down and watches the match from start to finish the majority of the match will go unsupervised. Even if you call over a TO and they come look and don't throw out a DQ they chances are will have some other match to watch, a fight to enter themselves, or people to organize and will probably walk away after hearing or not hearing you out. After the TO leaves your opponent can then continue to rudder stall and depending on the TO's patience may cause him to think that you are badgering him or trying to falsely incriminate your opponent by calling out stalling again.

Over all I like the stage Pirate Ship however I think it allows to much room to cheat and an opportunist will not pass up the chance to abuse an unbeatable tactic. If money is not on the line I could see competitive battles occurring on this stage however as soon as money is place on the line the stages gray areas will be abused.

 

[bobson]

You pointed out why we have to ban stages that suffer from circle stalling due to TO bias but you did not write in the possible ways a TO can be biased if someone is using the rudder to stall.

Lets say you are fighting a friend of the TO and you are not on good grounds with the TO to begin with. You call out "Hey! This dude's stalling!" and the TO begins to walkover. Before the TO even gets a chance to view the match he will see two things, you and his friend. So the TO nonchalantly strolls over to the screen but just before he gets there or while he is just getting there your foe moves out from under the rudder but stays in the water and the TO continues on to ask what the issue is and because the TO is bias he asks his friend first. The friend says "I am fighting in the water and he is calling it stalling" and the TO then says to you "water camping is not stall learn to play" you respond to this with "he was placing himself under the rudder and just waiting there" the TO then says (regardless of weather or not he knows stalling under the rudder is possible) "you cannot get under the ship, if you go under it you die instantly" then walks off. The match continues on and you lose the match due to it timing out and the friend calls the TO over to check the screen just to make sure the match is recorded as his win.

If you're at a tournament where this could happen you're at a bad tournament. This is totally irrelevant. I mean, they could do this with any rule. Does that mean we ban every stage where Metaknight's IDC is capable of stalling? Should we ban every stage with walls on the sides so Jigglypuff can't stall with rising Pound? What if your opponent pauses and interrupts your chaingrab or combo all the time but gets away with it because the TO never sees it? What if he loses, but reports it as a win, and the TO believes his friend over you? Should we just ban tournaments entirely, then? This is a really stupid situation that should never, ever happen at a good tournament, and it's no argument to ban an entire stage because a TO might be irresponsible enough to allow it to happen.

Circle stalling is ambiguous by its very nature. There's no clear point between "obviously circle stalling" and "just running away" that a TO can look at to determine whether it's DQ-worthy or not, especially considering how defensive Brawl is. Rudder stalling is not. At the very worst, a TO can simply watch the match, and your opponent cannot rudder stall anymore.

 

[Hyesz]

Anyone fancy PM'n me the current list of what's legal and not?

I've spent too long on scrubby sites that only play FD, SV, Yoshis and BF with no CP.

kthnx.

 

[Linkshot]

Anyone fancy PM'n me the current list of what's legal and not?

I've spent too long on scrubby sites that only play FD, SV, Yoshis and BF with no CP.

kthnx.

Everything is legal until you find an unbeatable tactic.

kthx.

 

[Hyesz]

I never did see a pro play on Mario Bros. or 75m.
Any ideas why? /sarcasm

I just asked nicely for a list of what's currently legal neutrals and CPs.
No need to get arrogant now.