Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Nidtendofreak]

It's in the official recommended SBR rules list.

Of course, tournaments can add or ban any stage they want. So it's about what your TO decides then the SBR.

 

[Hyesz]

Right, I'll just google that since nobody's read what I'm asking.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yes, I just did.

Some places have legal stages that the SBR says are banned (custom stages), and a lot of areas ban stages that the SBR says are legal (Pirate Ship). >_>

"Currently legal" doesn't really matter. It's "What your TO feels like" that matters.

 

[Hyesz]

Yeah but I don't really go to tourneys, I live in Scotland so I have no choice =(

Quote: It's in the official recommended SBR rules list.

Link me pl0x.

 

[bobson]

There's a list on the first page of this thread, man.

 

[deepseadiva]

Anyone fancy PM'n me the current list of what's legal and not?

Did it really take six posts to get this answered? I'm losing faith in you people.

 

[demonictoonlink]

In his defense, it was a pretty tough question

I am being sarcastic via the internet yet I don't exactly know how to express it. I hope this works.

 

[Linkshot]

I was trying to convert him into having a liberal stage list

But yeah. Usually a minimum of 5 starters (the 4 you listed are usually always there, then there are 5 that can get tossed in: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium (Melee)), but always an odd number so that Stage Striking is fair.

But, yes. Counterpicks are all about how whiny your community is feeling at the time. If your stage list isn't liked, you don't get a turnout. Simple as that.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Im guessing it would take too long to have all of those stages as neutrals and then just strike form there

Like 3 strikes, then 2, then 2, then pick from the last 2,

 

[Kinzer]

That doesn't work.

If you leave two neutrals to start on, then you're going to have to deal with disputes, because some characters have better advantages on different neutrals.

You always need to leave an odd number of stages so that there is no dispute on the stage that the first match is going to be played on with no questions asked.

 

[Hyesz]

There's a list on the first page of this thread, man.

Thanks.

Someone has the common sense to tell me that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Thanks.

Someone has the common sense to tell me that.

Why would we remember that's there? I don't even look at that page anymore, I'm always click the last page. >_> <_<

 

[Sucumbio]

can anyone explain how to abuse the rudder in pirate ship? I am using ganon for this test, btw. I just can't seem to figure it out. I go to the rudder, but if I try getting under it, I die, and if I just hug the rudder, I'm wide open. what am I missing? thanks in advance.

 

[fkacyan]

Did it really take six posts to get this answered? I'm losing faith in you people.

I don't understand why it's still common thought that readily-available information should be spoon-fed to people. If I asked my professor about a formula I should know for a test he'd laugh at me for not knowing; if I asked my boss about the basic tenants of my profession I'd be lucky if he didn't fire me.

That's all I have to say for now. Discussing stage legality with you people for me is like discussing abortion with pro-lifers.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't understand why it's still common thought that readily-available information should be spoon-fed to people. If I asked my professor about a formula I should know for a test he'd laugh at me for not knowing; if I asked my boss about the basic tenants of my profession I'd be lucky if he didn't fire me.

Your comparisons are fail. As a student and as an employee you're expected to know such basic things, especially after having some prior training.

This is a public internet forum. Noobs don't know anything. Be nice to them.

 

[fkacyan]

Your comparisons are fail. As a student and as an employee you're expected to know such basic things, especially after having some prior training.

This is a public internet forum. Noobs don't know anything. Be nice to them.

If you come in expecting to talk about something I would expect you to be able to read the first post, just as the mods would expect you to know the rules of the forum and wouldn't remove an infraction if you hadn't read them.

This feels so much like the raider vs. non-raider argument that it's disgusting.

 

[Kinzer]

...Is there nothing left about stages to discuss?

Has the issue of Final Destination being a counterpick been addressed in this thread before? I know there was a blog about it, but nothing here AFAIK.

...Somehow, a 7-stage starter list doesn't seem so bad if the community is willing to work with it...

 

[Linkshot]

I support a non-starter Final Destination, but I know veterans will never give up that stage :/

 

[fkacyan]

I support a non-starter Final Destination, but I know veterans will never give up that stage :/

Lylat and Yoshi's have to go before Final does.

 

[Linkshot]

Yoshi's and Lylat are far less biased than FD.

 

[fkacyan]

Yoshi's and Lylat are far less biased than FD.

They have far more random elements than FD has.

If FD is heavily biased against your character, that's why you have two strikes.

 

[bobson]

They have far more random elements than FD has.

If FD is heavily biased against your character, that's why you have two strikes.

So? Brawl has tons of random elements.
If you're paranoid of randomness, that's why you have two strikes.

In a 7-stage starter list FD is fine, but for 5-stage starters it's easily the most biased and matchup-destroying of the bunch, although I'm not necessarily sure if another stage would be better in that respect.

 

[Linkshot]

You seem to be confusing "small attributes that appear once in a while" with "random bob-omb exploding on your head"

Small random elements don't make a stage worse; in fact, the variety makes it a better stage, due to it testing a player's adaptation.

 

[fkacyan]

So? Brawl has tons of random elements.
If you're paranoid of randomness, that's why you have two strikes.

In a 7-stage starter list FD is fine, but for 5-stage starters it's easily the most biased and matchup-destroying of the bunch, although I'm not necessarily sure if another stage would be better in that respect.

In my experience, Battlefield and Yoshi's do far more to break matchups.

If you're worried about projectile camping, platforms are actually exacerbators and not inhibitors.

due to it testing a player's adaptation.

Yes, the stage randomly tilting and killing you for recovering in the same method as always makes perfect sense in that regard - I was supposed to adapt and change the coding for my recovery move! Oh, and randomly getting saved after you've been gimped also shows adaptation - You adapted to a random event!

You seem to confuse fighting the stage with adaptation, but this isn't new to me.

 

[bobson]

In my experience, Battlefield and Yoshi's do far more to break matchups.

Well, considering your experience also lead you to believe that planking is broken on Norfair...

If you're worried about projectile camping, platforms are actually exacerbators and not inhibitors.

Right, I guess that's why Battlefield is Falco's best stage.
Projectile spam isn't the only thing wrong with FD; have you ever tried facing a Diddy Kong there, where he can control the entire stage with his bananas? A Dedede, where every grab is 30+%? Have you ever tried playing Ganondorf there, where you can do absolutely nothing against anyone?
There's a reason why this stage is always struck or banned in sets.

By the by, Lylat's tilting isn't random; it's determined by the background.
Cue argument that paying attention to the tilts is too much work.

 

[Linkshot]

Haha, that's something I need to really study but have been putting off. Maybe it's already subconscious knowledge, though.

 

[fkacyan]

Have you ever tried playing Ganondorf there, where you can do absolutely nothing against anyone?
There's a reason why this stage is always struck or banned in sets.

Ganon is irrelevant to discussion, because he's simply not viable. I've played far more sets post-strike on FD and Smashville than any of the other three stages; Lylat and Yoshi's are almost always the first two struck.

By the by, Lylat's tilting isn't random; it's determined by the background.
Cue argument that paying attention to the tilts is too much work.

Name one other neutral where you have to pay attention to something not in the foreground to be able to recover. Oh, and by the way, this is while trying to control when and by what you are hit so that you are still able to.

Right, I guess that's why Battlefield is Falco's best stage.
Projectile spam isn't the only thing wrong with FD; have you ever tried facing a Diddy Kong there, where he can control the entire stage with his bananas? A Dedede, where every grab is 30+%?

After playing several of the best Falco mains, I'd take them to FD over Battlefield, because you can actually approach them. Ignoring your lack of knowledge on that, as I can't expect you to have had nearly as much Falco experience as me...

Dedede CGs a select few characters, many of which he can get nearly that much percent on on any given of the five neutral stages. Diddy's stage control is almost equally good on Smashville, and on Yoshi's it's at least as good - With bananas he can force you to have almost no approach methods with smart banana placement while he camps peanuts under the platform.

Which state do you live in again? I want to check the character balance you guys have to see how it compares to NJ. Character balance in a region can make a huge difference as far as stage preferences.

 

[Linkshot]

...see how it compares to NJ.

This explains it. That's the most conservative state I've ever seen. Random is the devil to them, and they feel the need to slay it.

I will not listen to the New Jersey mentality, ever.

 

[bobson]

Paying attention to the tilts is too much work!

Hi, welcome to Smash. Sometimes you have to pay attention to things that aren't immediately apparent.

After playing several of the best Falco mains, I'd take them to FD over Battlefield, because you can actually approach them. Ignoring your lack of knowledge on that, as I can't expect you to have had nearly as much Falco experience as me...

As I think further about this, you are right. I concede this point.

Dedede CGs a select few characters, many of which he can get nearly that much percent on on any given of the five neutral stages. Diddy's stage control is almost equally good on Smashville, and on Yoshi's it's at least as good - With bananas he can force you to have almost no approach methods with smart banana placement while he camps peanuts under the platform.

Oh yeah, he CGs a "select few" characters, like Metaknight has the advantage on a "select few" characters. In addition to the average CG damage being greater on FD than any other starter except perhaps Smashville, FD offers you absolutely no means of avoiding the grab in the first place, where every other starter has at least one platform.
Diddy's stage control on SV is indeed "almost" as good, but you're still left with some space to yourself, unlike on FD. I'm not seeing how Diddy can use peanut camping to prevent any approach on Yoshi's for characters who aren't Ganondorf. Even Bowser can get past this.

Which state do you live in again? I want to check the character balance you guys have to see how it compares to NJ. Character balance in a region can make a huge difference as far as stage preferences.

Oklahoma, but I often travel or play online whenever I want some actual competition as I live in the middle of nowhere and have to travel over half the state to get to any tournament here anyway. (cue LOL ONLINE??-esque counterpoint) My experience is hardly specific to my state.

Why do you even bother coming in this thread if you live in NJ? You guys are going to have your little paradise of heterosexual-stages-only regardless of if God himself comes down and calls you scrubs.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

Out of curiousity, so I don't make another couple paragraphs defending reasonings for a stage that are already defended, may I ask why Corneria is banned, and why Rainbow Cruise is allowed? Just asking, if someone would answer.

 

[fkacyan]

This explains it. That's the most conservative state I've ever seen. Random is the devil to them, and they feel the need to slay it.

I will not listen to the New Jersey mentality, ever.

In other words, any viewpoint other than your own is wrong and even if I gave perfect evidence as to why you were wrong, you would still ignore it?

We have a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking random occurences: When we put money into something we don't want something outside of every party's control making us lose that money.

Ignoring a very powerful region on the basis of their mindset being different is stupid, especially when the stagelist isn't dictated but rather voted on. If you choose to simply ignore opposing viewpoints, you should expect the same to happen to you.

 

[fkacyan]

Hi, welcome to Smash. Sometimes you have to pay attention to things that aren't immediately apparent.

When did I say that it was too much work? I never did; I just argued that it wasn't characteristic of a neutral stage, which you haven't disproven.

I'm not seeing how Diddy can use peanut camping to prevent any approach on Yoshi's for characters who aren't Ganondorf. Even Bowser can get past this.

Image forthcoming.

Out of curiousity, so I don't make another couple paragraphs defending reasonings for a stage that are already defended, may I ask why Corneria is banned, and why Rainbow Cruise is allowed? Just asking, if someone would answer.

Corneria has a wall. I actually think RC should be banned, but I haven't talked to the other hosts in NJ enough to come to a decision about this. We've been on the hedge for a while.

 

[bobson]

Out of curiousity, so I don't make another couple paragraphs defending reasonings for a stage that are already defended, may I ask why Corneria is banned, and why Rainbow Cruise is allowed? Just asking, if someone would answer.

The main argument for Corneria being banned is that fighting against camping behind the fin from the likes of G&W and Metaknight who have wall "infinites," setups into those wall infinites, a handful of kill moves that will ruin you off the small blastlines on the right side, and a grand ol' time keeping you out of there in the first place is simply too much to handle (not to mention G&W's bucket BS on top of it). I say it's beatable in enough matchups to be allowed, but it's a debatable point.

Rainbow Cruise is allowed because it's popular to allow it. By typical conservative mindsets it should be banned.

When did I say that it was too much work? I never did; I just argued that it wasn't characteristic of a neutral stage, which you haven't disproven.

It is true that Lylat is the only starter where you have to pay a slightly larger amount of attention to recover properly. It's also true that Smashville is the only starter where you have to pay attention to a sliding platform, and that Battlefield is the only starter where a platform game is dominant, and that FD is the only starter where a platform game plays no role, etc.

It's only a point against Lylat if you're arguing that it takes too much effort to pull off in a normal match. Otherwise it's just something that's there.

 

[fkacyan]

OK, so, looking at this, the red parts are where bananas could potentially be, the blue are is where Diddy hangs out, and the green areas are the opponent and his movement arc around where Diddy is (Ignore the bottom bit of that ellipses under Diddy's area). Now, assuming you are a character with no projectile to camp back effectively at Diddy, Diddy is standing with one banana in the red zone between him and the green zone you are in, and one banana in his hand. He is firing peanuts at you. Describe a situation where the majority of characters can get around this stage control mechanism.

The problem, is, there isn't. Diddy has effective control mechanisms on all neutral stages due to the way the platforms (or lack thereof) function. By using Diddy as an example to condemn FD you use him as an example to condemn most neutrals on the basis that high tier characters do REALLY well on these stages.

As for Lylat, the issue isn't paying attention to it as much as paying attention to a background to be hit in a specific manner so as the stage itself does not gimp you. At that point you are fighting the stage and the opponent, which no other neutral requires you to do.

 

[Linkshot]

I know what to do.

Wait for the platform to tilt. Use Shy Guys as meatshields. GRAB THE TOSSED BANANA.

And it's that New Jersey is extremely radical. Oh no, a random element. WHY ARE YOU PLAYING BRAWL?

If you want nothing random, Smash is not for you.

64 has a hazard on every stage.

Melee has Phantom Hits.

Brawl has tripping.

Suck. It. Up. And. Adapt.

How about, y'know, using the random when you need it? Yoshi's randomness won't hurt you at all unless you 100% choose to ignore that the Ghosts can spawn. You have to BE READY.

Stages do **** in Smash Bros. If that's not what you like, DON'T PLAY IT.

It's a package deal. You get Percents, Knockback, and Blastzones, which are extremely fresh for fighting games, and then you get stage influence.

You can't simply remove the influence. It will always be there.

I didn't see Fountain of Dreams banned in Melee because a platform could rise and mess up your SHFFL. So stop complaining about Yoshi's.

TL;DR: Smash is different than what you want it to be.

 

[deepseadiva]

If you come in expecting to talk about something I would expect you to be able to read the first post, just as the mods would expect you to know the rules of the forum and wouldn't remove an infraction if you hadn't read them.

Got me there I suppose.

But still, better to move on and answer the simple question, rather than a page of "lol n00b" - which helps no one.

This explains it. That's the most conservative state I've ever seen. Random is the devil to them, and they feel the need to slay it.

I will not listen to the New Jersey mentality, ever.

This was a sarcastic post right?

Yea... let's fight ignorance with ignorance!

We have a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking random occurences: When we put money into something we don't want something outside of every party's control making us lose that money.

This is true.

It's also unfortunate you're playing this very random game with money on the line.

I completely agree with the NJ standpoint that "randomness has no place in competition" - as should every logical person. Where the rift begins is the misunderstanding that it means "all randomness has no place in competition", which isn't true. It means "randomness that cannot reasonably be dealt with has no place in competition."

Yoshi's random ghost is reasonable in that it appears in only two exact locations.

Peach's random items are reasonable in that they're rare enough to be negligible overall.

Pictochat is reasonable in that the random hazards appear at predictable times at predictable locations.

Randomness is as much a part of this game as Meta Knight is. You can't remove it unless it's unreasonable to deal with, and regardless as unpopular as it may be, that's the game. Disagreement with this suggests picking something else up.

At that point you are fighting the stage and the opponent, which no other neutral requires you to do.

This phrase is going to drive me crazy.

There are different levels of how much you're "fighting the stage", but in my opinion FD's "nothing between you and a dozen lazers but the length of a football field" hazard and Smashville's hazard of a "moving explosive delivery platform" are equal to, if not worse then Lylat's "aim an inch higher to recover" tilting ledges.

 

[Linkshot]

Eh, I was in that PictoChat thread and I kinda lost it against them. I looked at the legal list and frowned.

 

[bobson]

Describe a situation where the majority of characters can get around this stage control mechanism.

I was trying to place myself in this situation mentally to get a hold on how difficult it would be to deal with but I had trouble with it because my answer to it with every single character I'm decent with was along the lines of "I shoot fireballs, gg diddy." With further thought, I found out that over half the cast has at least one projectile that they just start casually tossing in without risk and ruin the whole thing, so there's your majority there. For characters without, it's relatively difficult to get past, but it's no laser wall or planking Metaknight. Peanuts as a pressure projectile are less than great as they can be destroyed with literally anything as well as be caught and thrown back at you, so if Diddy doesn't have a percent/stock advantage you can just chill and kill his peanuts until he leaves, and it's quasi-feasible to just try and throw them back at him if he does have an advantage. Characters with good aerial mobility can just maneuver around to the other side and start counterattacking before Diddy gets his banana there. Mindgames are always there. At worst, it's always possible to just run up and grab the banana, and the situation is dealt with until Diddy gets it back.

On FD, the situation is different. It's not so much a positional advantage that Diddy can set up for himself as it is an intrinsic advantage thats always present during the match, and that's present less on other stages by the simple fact that there are more levels for the bananas to land on. Even if he just leaves bananas on the stage without thinking, they still present a threat to the opponent, and with a single step on them he can start some random-*** bananagens that continue over the whole stage.

I'm not really sure why I'm arguing this. I support a 7-stage starter list, in which FD would be present anyway, and I'm not really sure without experimentation that Halberd or PS1 would be "less gay" as a starter in its place in a 5-stage list anyway.

As for Lylat, the issue isn't paying attention to it as much as paying attention to a background to be hit in a specific manner so as the stage itself does not gimp you. At that point you are fighting the stage and the opponent, which no other neutral requires you to do.

I only pointed out the background affecting the tilt to address the issue of its randomness; you don't have to pay attention to it at all, but you can if you're super-paranoid. If the stage is moving slightly upwards, you aim slightly higher. If the stage is moving slightly downwards, you aim slightly lower. Anyone with eyes and basic pattern recognition should be able to do this without extra effort. It's really not an issue with the stage at all.

 

[Sucumbio]

can anyone explain how to abuse the rudder in pirate ship? I am using ganon for this test, btw. I just can't seem to figure it out. I go to the rudder, but if I try getting under it, I die, and if I just hug the rudder, I'm wide open. what am I missing? thanks in advance.

anyone?

Reason I ask is cause you all ran sunshade off with your usual circular logic and it's a darn shame cause he'd almost cracked you *******s.

 

[fkacyan]

There are different levels of how much you're "fighting the stage", but in my opinion FD's "nothing between you and a dozen lazers but the length of a football field" hazard and Smashville's hazard of a "moving explosive delivery platform" are equal to, if not worse then Lylat's "aim an inch higher to recover" tilting ledges

Battlefield is a MUCH BETTER projectile camping stage than FD. If there are platforms, you have literally no viable option of approach, because the camper is shielded by the platforms above him from incoming attacks.

EDIT: Have you never seen Lylat break linear recoveries? You can literally be riding the edge and not grab it because the stage is in the process of tilting, even if you aim for it.

Peanuts as a pressure projectile are less than great as they can be destroyed with literally anything as well as be caught and thrown back at you, so if Diddy doesn't have a percent/stock advantage you can just chill and kill his peanuts until he leaves, and it's quasi-feasible to just try and throw them back at him if he does have an advantage

The pressure exists in that the second you take a laggy attack, rechucked peanut, etc to hit him for camping he has the banana in his hand to force you into a slip combo.

The entire basis of my original post is that FD is less biased to a lot of matchups than FD, and that a three-starter would certainly not include Yoshi's or Lylat over FD. I've never seen a match start on Lylat or Yoshi's before, and this combined with my personal experience leads me to say what I'm saying. I think on the 14th at CdKB I'll look at as many set beginnings as I can and look at the strike order; that said, I like the five-stage strike system, because looking at what your opponent strikes can be very telling as to what kinds of stages he dislikes playing on.