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Official Stage Legality Discussion

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CHAOSvsORDER

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Circle camping isn't a form of stalling - it's a separate type of degenerate strategy. It doesn't fall under that rule unfortunately.
"too big" is not a valid reason, but as Meno mentioned, circle camping is. You can circle camp with Fox while still occasionally firing lasers at the opponent, which means it's not stalling. :urg:
* Stalling is banned.


Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.
You sure? It doesn't make any distinction between attacking and not attacking. In fact, it specifically addresses attacking your opponent: '...is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is,' Before that rule was created, banning those stages was a pretty easy decision to make, but now that this vague rule exists, it can easily be applied to those stages I listed. In any case, Shadow Moses Island does not fall under the circle camping or running away applications of the stalling rule; it falls under the part about iCGs. Since a rule now exists to prevent that kind of stalling on Shadow Dedede Island, it should stand to reason that it can be made viable.
 

infomon

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There's a difference between using a chaingrab to stall the match, vs. the chaingrab being simply a degenerate strategy on that stage. Stalling is banned so you can't just D3 Dthrow chain them to 999%+ on Shadow Moses. So you could allow the stage. But D3's chaingrab is still (argued to be) degenerate on the stage; the entire competition reduces to getting a single grab, with which you'd take the opponent to 300% into a guaranteed KO.
 

arsenic41

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There's a difference between using a chaingrab to stall the match, vs. the chaingrab being simply a degenerate strategy on that stage. Stalling is banned so you can't just D3 Dthrow chain them to 999%+ on Shadow Moses. So you could allow the stage. But D3's chaingrab is still (argued to be) degenerate on the stage; the entire competition reduces to getting a single grab, with which you'd take the opponent to 300% into a guaranteed KO.
IC's anyone?

The way that I see it, if we allowed this ****. It won't be too much different from a good IC player, you WILL lose that stock. So you might as well do it with any other stage with a wall and just play the D3 like an IC player and DON'T GET GRABED!!!

or choose someone who D3 can't chaingrab.
 

deepseadiva

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The important difference is that Ice Climbers' infinite isn't stage specific.
 

arsenic41

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That is right...they can do it on any stage.

IC's for Ban tier.

EDIT: better yet, lets ban every stage.
 

infomon

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IC's anyone?

The way that I see it, if we allowed this ****. It won't be too much different from a good IC player, you WILL lose that stock. So you might as well do it with any other stage with a wall and just play the D3 like an IC player and DON'T GET GRABED!!!

or choose someone who D3 can't chaingrab.
Actually, this is why I think we banned these stages too preemptively; I haven't seen any videos of real matches where D3 simply dominated these stages. I'm sure it prolly wrecks a lot of matchups, but the fact that we don't have proof is what bugs me.
 

Sucumbio

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what about "play to win" ... heh heh heh.

This is -exactly- what has plagued me in this stage discussion, because a stage can be blamed for allowing cheap tactics like infinite chain grabs and circle camping (hitting a few times and RUNNING AWAY until the timer runs out.) Can you imagine if a world class boxer got a few good shots in thus technically scoring more points and then back-peddled the rest of the match? The f'ing CROWD would storm the ring and kill his *** dead.

No, stages should NOT be blamed for "allowing" these tactics. Tournaments... are allowing these tactics.

I know this much. If I ran a tournament each and every match -would- be carefully witnessed, refereed... and there would be immediate DQ for any chain grabbing over 100%, any circle camping (purposefully avoiding close combat) for more than 15 seconds or 2 passes depending on the stage.

In other words, you will stand and fight, or you will be DQ.

There is O reason to reward some 15 year old for being a smash champion because he got lucky with a few laser spams from his fox and then ducked the rest of the match.

Then again, of all the vids I've watched, i've yet to see true champions like M2K etc doing anything like this. Why? Cause they don't have to :) They can win on pure talent alone.
 

Tesh

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If it works, use ban it.



Why don't you guys just play on a custom stage with no ledges, no walkoffs, no circle camping, no ceilings, no walls, no drop through platforms, Ganondorf only.
 

bobson

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Randomness has no place in competition. Period, end of story.
Then you should not be playing Brawl competitively.

Reference: Delfino Plaza, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, Pokemon Stadium, any character with an ability determined by randomness such as Luigi, Peach, and Mr. Game & Watch, tripping, the fact that picking "random" is allowed, etc.
 

fkacyan

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Then you should not be playing Brawl competitively.

Reference: Delfino Plaza, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, Pokemon Stadium, any character with an ability determined by randomness such as Luigi, Peach, and Mr. Game & Watch, tripping, the fact that picking "random" is allowed, etc.
Your extensively literal interpretations of what I say are so infuriating I actually would like to slap you in an effort to make you realize how dumb what you just said was.

Obviously there will ALWAYS be random elements in a given tourney, from the people around you to your physical condition to whether or not a meteor falls through the roof and hits your setup at the climax of the match. The idea is ti minimize randomness that will affect a match. The random elements in FDelfino, Yoshi's, Lylat, Castle, Brinstar, Frigate, and Stadium are not so gamebreaking or unpredictable that you can't properly deal with them or take them into account when choosing the stage. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that I can get hit and, while still in hitstun, have a hazard appear under me and and kill me.

Peach, Luigi, and GnW are all dumb for their randomness. That being said, just because some parts of the game are stupidly random doesn't mean we say "**** it, let's just allow all of it!"

tl;dr : Argumentum ad antiquitatem
 

bobson

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The random elements in FDelfino, Yoshi's, Lylat, Castle, Brinstar, Frigate, and Stadium are not so gamebreaking or unpredictable that you can't properly deal with them or take them into account when choosing the stage.
True! Pictochat is also this way, and that's why it's a fine stage.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that I can get hit and, while still in hitstun, have a hazard appear under me and and kill me.
Yes. That is why you do not get hit when the stage is about to transform.
 

Kinzer

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Ban Brawl. There's tripping.

Oh wait...now how do we play?
Obviously we go back to Melee.

...Son.

tl;dr : This post contains awesome.
Especially the part where it said Peach and G&W are ridiculous. Luigi I may disagree because nobody pays attention to him, but there is nothing I can say on the matter of Pictochat's legalty.

My opinion on it:

I really don't care whether it's banned or not. I'd love to have it around because Sonic is a beast on this stage, what with his speed and the only other stage that's not YI:B where iSDR can be done at will (ignoring hazards and temporary walls), and it really helps because I can try to combat gay with some ridiculous things from my sleeve; but you know I'm so used to being gayed with Sonic in general that this loss doesn't hurt, and it's not detrimental to the point where I can't go without this stage.
 

Linkshot

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As I mentioned in Atlantic North's Bawwwww thread, PictoChat and Japes are on timers.

If the stage is about to transform, I will know. If you want to hit me into something, I will run away and wait for the transformation to occur. If you think you can trade hits with me and gain the upper hand, I will gladly hit you into a spawning hazard.

tl;dr: Watch the clock.
 

deepseadiva

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The one thing I do get confused about is the whole "hitstun" part about being over a hazard.

Brawl doesn't have hitstun. Why are you people terrified about this happening? xD
 

fkacyan

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The one thing I do get confused about is the whole "hitstun" part about being over a hazard.

Brawl doesn't have hitstun. Why are you people terrified about this happening? xD
There's hitstun, just not much of it.

If you really think there isn't hitstun, play against characters with electric attacks.
 

Linkshot

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"Oh no I airdodged and became vulnerable over a hazard CLEARLY HITSTUN"

How about DI-ing away from the hazard's hitboxes? v.v

We also need more Rumble Falls testing (at the moment I am neutral. The chokepoint can get really nasty, and chunky characters have lots of trouble where the row of spikes is; although this could be considered a CP against them, then)

EDIT: Thio, that's hitlag; when everybody involved can't move. Hitstun is losing control during knockback.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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There is really nothing wrong with a little randomness in a competitive game. For instance, I would argue that random spawn points (a la Brawl) are way better design than controller port spawn points (a la Melee and Smash 64). Peach's turnips provide interesting gameplay that can really only be achieved by randomness (basically, if she only pulls a few, odds are she gets only minor good things, but if left alone and allowed to pull a ton, she is likely to get a bomb or beam sword which is extremely good for her). I feel several of the stages are similar to this, and that includes PictoChat in my book. Sure, the drawing is random (within certain limits that every player should know). However, unless you are just ignorant to the stage (and therefore don't try to work with the drawing mechanics, instead working "against" them) or deliberately try to put yourself in positions where bad things can happen, the odds of you actually losing a match to a random "surprise" are astronomical, in the league of tripping into Ike's fsmash on last stock or falling through solid ground on the handful of stages it has been documented to occur on. In any case, I've never seen any serious match dictated by any of that since, like I said, the odds are really just astronomical. I mean, yeah, excessive randomness can produce undesirable results, but randomness is no inherent evil. You just have to look at the sort of effects particular random elements have.

PictoChat's randomness is actually positive in another way though. PictoChat is a transforming stage, and it randomly transitions between 27 drawings with the "clear" form in-between each one. Obviously each drawing is in many ways a stage of its own, and the character advantages on each and every one are going to be different. This means the stage has an unpredictable character advantage, but the average character advantage over a match is pretty much guaranteed to be extremely tame. The way the order is random even prevents camping for your best forms from being a good idea since you have no guarantee they're coming so most forms are worth fighting as aggressively on as you do in general. All together, that is way better for fairness than the static character advantages that static stages give. It's also why PictoChat is a truly petty force on any stage list it appears on as anything but a starter. As a counterpick, there is no reason to pick PictoChat other than having a very strong personal synergy with the stage or advanced knowledge your opponent hates the stage (one of my favorite reasons to pick a stage). PictoChat is so exceptionally fair; why would you waste your counterpick on it when on essentially any stage list and matchup you are working with is going to have several stages more skewed in your favor? PictoChat is always legal around here, and it almost never gets picked. When it does, it's generally pretty tame, and even if random events favor one player a bit in a particular game, it's usually very obvious that them picking a better CP would have helped them even more.

As per circling being solved by subjective rules against running, the easiest answer is that any ruleset that requires matches to have the constant monitor of referees is defective by design. I am radical I suppose in thinking most (all I've seen) physical sports are terribly designed games for, among other reasons, the emphasis they place on skirting the rules in just such a way so the referee doesn't cry foul and can have their entire results plausibly changed by a biased referee. In a smash tournament, you could be intensely hated by the TO and every member of the tournament staff at any tournament and still win with only petty disadvantages against you (just don't be late for games and don't try to sneak stuff like IDC that others can get away with a little). Given that it's pretty much impossible for people not to be biased when asked to judge anything anyway, I think avoiding referees as much as possible should be one of our highest goals in making rules. Not to mention the fact that having a staff constantly monitoring every game is adding a ton of workload to a tournament staff to the point that you can't expect volunteers. You have to pay for that sort of thing, and no one wants that money coming out of the pot.

There's also the fact that run-away is a completely legitimate tactic in Brawl just as much as any other fighter, and it's flat out scrubby to punish it to try to force people into other styles such as rush-down or keep-away (that is, camping without moving much yourself). Why is "standing and fighting" better than "running and gunning"? The game doesn't suggest a way to play; the natural approach is to let everyone do whatever they want and favor that which the game declares the winner in the end (via the results screen). We regrettably have to make some rules to ensure there's some real gameplay, but we should strive to make as few as possible and have those be as non-intrusive as possible. Banning a few stages that are, by and large, terrible for a lot of reasons (the loop is really only the beginning of Temple's problems) is a lot less intrusive than dictating tactics. You also end up with flat out bizarre situations. Falco in general is going to like to run away and shoot lasers. It's just a good tactic with him on every stage. If you ban running away too much on loop stages, you end up making loop stages bad for Falco... when if he played on them like he plays on other stages they would be his best stages (against characters that can't run from him effectively). Extreme non-intuitive rule implications are another thing we should probably avoid just for sanity's sake if nothing else.

I mostly agree that walls are overrated in terms of being "broken", especially the walls on Corneria and Onett that have a lot of natural features in the stage that make them not really that exploitable. Shadow Moses Island is terrible for a lot of reasons (if you are smart here, you are practically unkillable in some matchups, like half the cast vs Sonic, as an example); I don't think it's a good representative of walls and definitely shouldn't be held as a model of how fair they are. To anyone who wants to pursue this further, I can really only wish you luck.
 

Kinzer

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...What you say? Somebody set us up the bomb?

Your first question is not clear, and if you're going to tell people "I can think for myself", then what the Hell are you doing asking for a reply in the first place?
 

fkacyan

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...What you say? Somebody set us up the bomb?

Your first question is not clear, and if you're going to tell people "I can think for myself", then what the Hell are you doing asking for a reply in the first place?
Sep' '09. Nothing to see here.
 

Sucumbio

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You stop sets in your region for Olimar's ghost pikmin? Really? In my region, both this and the Olimar glitch are handled the same way. You keep playing, and if it makes you lose, tough. It's hard to see the solutions to somehow halt the match as practical. It seems more prudent to just deal with the exploding field being there and to play around it (it shouldn't be broken; it's just a non-moving hazard).
You play on when it glitches? Wow, I am surprised by this. Not cause of whether or not you can play around it, but... cause it's a glitch. But ok, what about the fall through glitch? When it costs an extra stock do you play on and tough if they can't 2 stock you? But uh yeah I dunno if I had money on a game and it glitched I'd be mad I lost but I guess going in knowing that's gonna be the case means I won't john about it but it just seems like a bad idea unless someone does test it like crazy and figure out a way to make it happen then it's a new dynamic to the stage and hell yeah even cooler (I am a proponent for this stage being legal and I love it cause it's just cool).

I just had another thought, you wouldn't have to redo the WHOLE set, if it glitched on say, 2 stocks down each, then restart and SD the correct times, twice each in this case, then go on with the match.
 

Lore

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-great post-

Good argument for Pictochat, but I would like to add one thing.

I can't exactly remember where to find the pic, but if you stay on the bottom left portion of the stage (Not exactly a half, that's why I need the pic) then nothing that pictochat spawns can harm you. That partially nullifies your camping argument, but it also means that the person on the right side is going to play a bit more aggressive than the campy one on the left. Not only that, but it makes the 'the hazards are too random, they kill you all the time' argument kinda useless. Just stay on the left, and you're pretty much safe.

Just copy and paste your post, add this, and then you'll have my opinion on this stage.
:p
 

fkacyan

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Good argument for Pictochat, but I would like to add one thing.

I can't exactly remember where to find the pic, but if you stay on the bottom left portion of the stage (Not exactly a half, that's why I need the pic) then nothing that pictochat spawns can harm you. That partially nullifies your camping argument, but it also means that the person on the right side is going to play a bit more aggressive than the campy one on the left. Not only that, but it makes the 'the hazards are too random, they kill you all the time' argument kinda useless. Just stay on the left, and you're pretty much safe.

Just copy and paste your post, add this, and then you'll have my opinion on this stage.
:p
This moronic and idiotic point about Pictochat has been debunked more times than I can count, and the logical reason for it in a fighting game with constant motion should be fairly obvious to anybody with a brain.

@ AA: Comparing random hazards to random starting positions is conflation and you know it is. =/
 

Lore

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This moronic and idiotic point about Pictochat has been debunked more times than I can count, and the logical reason for it in a fighting game with constant motion should be fairly obvious to anybody with a brain.

Moronic and idiotic point? How is an entire area where you can't get hit a stupid point?

I was simply throwing that in. Random hazards are still random hazards, but it is still good to know what I said, so I said it.


edit: Oh, I get what you're saying now. I'm an idiot. xD

I was wrong.
 

'V'

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I just have a quick question...

Does PS2's Ice Field increase the tripping rate? I have a feeling it does. It is ice after all.
 

deepseadiva

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I just have a quick question...

Does PS2's Ice Field increase the tripping rate? I have a feeling it does. It is ice after all.
It does.

On a different topic, have you guys seen the new Midwest Circuit rules written by Overswarm?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249283

This stuff is like, ultra-janky. Besides using custom stages, he's also requiring a minimum of counter-banned stages (and even Onett!). I really love the experimentation, and I applaud the leap forward, but I honestly have no idea what to think about the custom stages.

Sounds ridiculously fun though - I wish I lived in the Midwest...

Maybe I'll travel to one of the bigger ones. :bee:
 

Linkshot

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I sent a message to Overswarm about it since I'm the local Custom Stage Crafter and Stage Liberalist.

Yeah, I'm North Coast, but that doesn't stop file transfers XD
 

Nidtendofreak

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Dang, OS gimped the chances of Pirate Ship showing up. Most people will just pick JJs, OF, and RC. >_>

I have to give it to him though, that's a very unique set up of stage selection...
 

Kinzer

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Care to explain to me why Pirate Ship should be banned?

Perhaps I'm not seeing it.
 
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