Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Nidtendofreak]

Care to explain to me why Pirate Ship should be banned?

Perhaps I'm not seeing it.

It shouldn't be.

I made a topic a while ago proving you always have time to avoid obstacles unless the opponent forces you into them, and that you can't water plank the whole time due to the ship rising up out of the water frequently.

 

[Linkshot]

You get a percent lead and then jump into the water and camp for 8 minutes.

The water goes away, and then you aircamp the gravity.

The rock comes by, and then you GO UNDER THE ROCK.

It becomes Super Smash Bros Watersports.

 

[infomon]

Moronic and idiotic point? How is an entire area where you can't get hit a stupid point?

I was simply throwing that in. Random hazards are still random hazards, but it is still good to know what I said, so I said it.

edit: Oh, I get what you're saying now. I'm an idiot. xD

I was wrong.

Well, I don't understand what he was trying to say, so please explain
Thio? It's quite plausible that I'm both moronic and idiotic, myself


Re: Overswarm's rulelist
I am strongly in agreement with his stagelist, with the exception of the custom stages, at which I am outright appalled. The reason being that the Brawl community is a shrinking bubble; we have cut ourselves off from the outside world. Adding custom stages (as well as any other shinnannigans) removes the ability for newcomers to join a tournament and feel that they are on equal footing.

Edit: Linkshot, you still haven't convinced me that watercamping is overpowered. Against Sonic, at least.

 

[Linkshot]

If a strategy can only be beaten by select cast members, it should be deemed degenerate, because it forces picking up a new character.

 

[infomon]

If a strategy can only be beaten by select cast members, it should be deemed degenerate, because it forces picking up a new character.

Yes, and high-level tournament play has yet to demonstrate that this tactic is virtually undefeatable by even a majority of the cast.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You get a percent lead and then jump into the water and camp for 8 minutes.

And get killed by the water because you jump less and less high each time in the water, to the point the opponent can very easily spike you. Good job, you lost a stock. Only G&W really has a shot at this, and some things beat him. (Like Aether. SAFs > His Up B, spinning sword snags him, he gets spiked)

The water goes away, and then you aircamp the gravity.

And get eaten by any character with air attack with lingering frames as you won't be able to easily move away/ground yourself. lol Ike's Nair/Uair anyone? Ness's Nair/Fair?

The rock comes by, and then you GO UNDER THE ROCK.

Assuming the opponent isn't smart enough to get to the side of the rock first, or that the TO doesn't call you for stalling, yes.

It becomes Super Smash Bros Watersports.

lol no.

 

[infomon]

'sides, watersports are hawt.

 

[Linkshot]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh

You don't know water mechanics well.

The first jump is a full jump from the water. If you don't land on the stage, you shorthop from the water at a set height from then on.

Jumping out of the water prevents drowning.

You can UpB out of the water any time you please. (You have to Smash UpB)

It isn't stalling if I attack from under the floor, because certain characters have hitbox that go beneath the floor.

Not worthy of disqualification, and very degenerate (trust me, I counterpick everybody on this when it's legal. The matches are very degenerate and are pretty much just me being in the water and them forfeiting their stocks to me in frustration)

 

[bobson]

I've been water camped in a match on three separate occasions and I've defeated it soundly every single time (and twice I got a free stock on them by hitting them into the ship's bow). Ironically, one of the players who tried it against me was significantly better than me and trashed me onstage, but I still stomped him whenever he tried to camp in the water. I usually win in water engagements because I'm not the type of player that thinks "OH HE'S IN THE WATER I'LL SPIKE HIM" and jumps right into the ****, and most of the people I fight are.

I have yet to be convinced that there's some type of water metagame that's above me and that water camping is a strategy that works at all on players who approach intelligently. There's like half a second of lag when you get in the water which can't be avoided without landing back on stage. I don't see any way a tactic that causes you to repeatedly go into a state as vulnerable as that could be even approaching degenerate.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I heard the lesser jumping ability over time from someone else. I didn't test the water part and I'm rarely camping in the water when I CP that stage. My bad.

I know about Up B out of water. I do main Ike after all. It's how he sets up his water spiking so easily. :D

What it sounds like to me is that you're playing people that don't know how to handle the stage. That's their fault, not the stage's fault.

 

[Inferno3044]

Crazy **** happens on Pirate Ship. The water can hinder edgeguarding/gimps and really help other characters like Ike and ones with good spikes.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Crazy **** happens on Pirate Ship. The water can hinder edgeguarding/gimps and really help other characters like Ike and ones with good spikes.

I've seen an Ivy grab the ship's front with vine whip, swing down, and smash into the hull. :D

 

[san.]

Crazy **** happens on Pirate Ship. The water can hinder edgeguarding/gimps and really help other characters like Ike and ones with good spikes.

How much an advantage is this compared to other stages where characters get boosts?

Would you rather play an Ike on pirate ship or

diddy/ICs on FD? Or DK and falco on jungle japes? Just because it gives an advantage to a character, that doesn't really mean much of anything.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Just a question here about Pirate Ship: Is there any sort of pattern or anything to the bombs? Because I've been trying to find something on that and have seen nothing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just a question here about Pirate Ship: Is there any sort of pattern or anything to the bombs? Because I've been trying to find something on that and have seen nothing.

Give me a moment to dig up my old topic.

There was a rough pattern to the hazards and stuff like that.

EDIT: Can't find it, it was in either this topic or the old version of this topic apparently. ;_;

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Give me a moment to dig up my old topic.

There was a rough pattern to the hazards and stuff like that.

EDIT: Can't find it, it was in either this topic or the old version of this topic apparently. ;_;

;_; I'm curious because I plan on making an index to cover all stage mechanics to help people who need to get better at other stages since there's no other index for it. My opinion on it really depends on the bombs.

 

['V']

PLEEEEASE ban more stages... This is really ridiculous.

 

[Linkshot]

PLEEEEASE free more stages... This is really ridiculous.

Spoiler

Extreme ends of the spectrum. Neither is right. Only the grey area sees the light.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

;_; I'm curious because I plan on making an index to cover all stage mechanics to help people who need to get better at other stages since there's no other index for it. My opinion on it really depends on the bombs.

I'm sorry dude, but that thing is buried. Either that or it was in a topic that somehow got deleted.

PLEEEEASE ban more stages... This is really ridiculous.

lol scrub.

 

[Squall LeonHeart]

Can someone explain to me why is Corneia(sp) is banned? I just can't see anything wrong with it, except for the obvious hazards.

 

[infomon]

Ostensibly, because wall infinites make the bottom-right an unbeatable, degenerate camping spot, and overpowers some (?) characters.

Some people complain that the ceiling is "too low", as if that has anything to do with anything.

idk.

 

[Kinzer]

Why is Green Hill Zone banned?

Is it because of mean ol' D3's chaingrabbin'?

I don't even know why walk-offs are banned TBH, if it causes so much distress, can't people just pick a character D3 can't Chaingrab?

 

[Linkshot]

Banning one character is faster than banning multiple stages.

 

[infomon]

Banning one character is faster than banning multiple stages.

But has a much stronger impact on the community and the metagame.

Does D3 really ruin GHZ though?
probably in most matchups

idk I wouldn't mind trying it.

 

[Llumys]

Banning a character to make a few stages legal isn't worth the trade at all.

 

[Kinzer]

Why ban a character and not a technique?

Let' just say chaingrabbing was all that degenerating, why ban D3 when you can just get rid of the CG?

Also I am really curious about whether or not GHZ should be legal. I tend to host a tourney and unless something made it worthy of being banned, I'm keeping it legal.

 

[infomon]

Technique bans tend to be unenforceable.

But there's a deeper reason that I don't like them. I never want to be in a situation where we go into a brawl match, but anything I might happen to do within it would disqualify me. I mean, I'm here to play the game, not play the game while being consciously of how my actions might violate some tangential set of human-applied rules. In particular, I'd like that no accident with my controller should be able to disqualify me. I'd rather ban the stage than have the risk of violating constraints which aren't actually a part of the game.

Outright stalling, as far as I know, can only be done by a handful of situations, and requires a conscious effort to pull off (it must be intentional), for a long period of time. Chaingrabs, on the other hand, are a natural part of fighting; telling a D3 that he must input a dash in-between grabs, for example, puts a real constraint on the types of mistakes one is allowed to make while playing, which I think is dumb.

SO yeah, if D3's CG is truly degenerate on GHZ, then I'd rather see the stage go than an attempt to ban the technique.

Even if you were going to try to ban the tech -- what exactly would you do? No chaingrabbing, or just no chaingrabbing off the side? What exactly constitutes a chaingrab, and which inputs are prevented to stop it? Would such a rule prevent legitimate, non-banworthy tactics from being used as well? It's generally a very tricky matter.

 

[Linkshot]

Rather than "just a few", if you ban D3, about a full quarter of Brawl's stage list becomes available.

Also, yeah. Banning a technique is harder than banning a character. I mean, the announce will yell out "KING DEE DEE DEE", but he won't yell out "CHAIN GRAB!", so it won't be noticed.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Why not just have certain stages banned when D3's in a match? <_<

 

[Linkshot]

I choose D3.

Suddenly a starter has disappeared and we can no longer stage strike.

 

[Sucumbio]

banning a character to make a stage viable isn't an option.
banning a technique to make a stage viable isn't an option.
banning a stage to make a character or technique viable is the current option.
is it the only option?

 

[Kinzer]

Stuff.

Yeah, your right.

banning a character to make a stage viable isn't an option.
banning a technique to make a stage viable isn't an option.
banning a stage to make a character or technique viable is the current option.
is it the only option?

No, we don't ban stages to make a character viable.

We ban a stage to prevent overcentralization of a character/abuse of stage hazards.

Also I would just, really love it if somebody, anybody, would please get back to me about my question, nobody has directly answered me.

 

[Linkshot]

We did answer, Kinzer.

You can't ban a technique because it's as flawed as the illegality of pirating.

If it's not noticed, the people get away with it and suddenly the entire tournament is corrupted.

 

[Kinzer]

Okay. I understand that.

Now about Green Hill Zone being a legal stage as the metagame stands now... Yes/No?

 

[Linkshot]

Nope. Two degenerate strategies:

Camp at checkpoint
Chaingrab off side.

 

[bobson]

That's the thing, though: with both of those strategies in place all the time, they tend to cancel eachother out. You won't be able to spam CGs effectively if the checkpoint keeps interrupting them, and camping isn't exactly an optimal strategy when you're immediately at risk of losing a stock when the checkpoint goes away. Adding the fact that many non-Dedede characters can get around checkpoint camping with ease and that Dedede himself is particularly vulnerable to it leads me to believe that this stage isn't so much broken as it just has a weird dynamic and forces you to play differently than on other stages.

But, either way, there isn't enough high-level play on the stage to know.

 

[buenob]

the checkpoint camping is rediculous, but the perma CG is just too much...

also, we technically do ban levels to make characers viable, since circle camping is only an issue because some chars are faster than others (technically)... realistically, we are banning levels to make certain characters not completely overpowered...

/observation

 

[Linkshot]

We ban New Pork City to make sure Sonic isn't viable.

Wat

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

We ban New Pork City to make sure Sonic isn't viable.

Wat

lol New Pork City is banned probably of multiple reasons. For one, it's immense size means stalling can be done by pretty much the whole cast. It also has a few areas where infinites can be accessed at during any part of the stage unlike Delfino or Caste Seige where they only show up for a limited time. New Pork City also has a couple of areas where one can, in theory, live forever with good DI and teching skills.

 

[Linkshot]

(I was making a joke that Sonic's only viable winning tactic is circle camping)