Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Kage Me]

It doesn't, really. Not with ROB. He can just jump up and fire a laser+gyro. You then have to approach to win.

Shield the laser, hold on to the gyro. Now he's down to just lasers, and those aren't spammable.

 

[Linkshot]

It's really hard to grab the gyro without getting hit by it.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

How about Pit? His arrows and his reflector certainly prevent him from being outcamped by ROB, right? Or am I wrong?

 

[Linkshot]

This argument proves it all. Corneria comes down to a camping match. It's just no fun if you're playing strictly to win.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Like all stages where there are very different regions, camping determines the outcome when each player insists upon his favorite region. It's not a big deal or a problem with the stage.

It's not like when you jump down there you instantly get caught in a wall infinite. Wall infinites are mostly easy to avoid and hard to set up; they aren't nearly as good as people like to make them sound.

 

[infomon]

Maybe I just don't get it... what's so broken about ROB forcing you to approach? Other characters could just hang out at the left side of the stage, forcing ROB to approach.

As Sonic, I can homing-attack "stall" under the left edge, above the megalaser. It's not really stalling; you can approach; I've just got a really beefy laser protecting me, and it seems difficult for ROB to shoot any projectile in safely. ROB will have to destroy the laser, or try to screw with Sonic's Homing-Attack enough that Sonic's trapped.... I'm not sure how well this tradeoff works for each of them. If the laser's destroyed, it still might be an advantageous situation for Sonic..... I'm not sure. It'd be a neat scenario to experiment though.

 

[yummynbeefy]

exactly what id ban and all though id also probably ban pictochat and pirate ship is on the boarder for me

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol shadowlink, ask infzy if I won't be hitting you

ShadowLink's a better Sonic than me, he might have more success.... but yeah I can't legitimately run away from buenob's ROB on hanenbow, lolllz.

NYAH!

l
but aside from that, even in your argument you validate my point... some characters are 100% not viable on that level... why then should that level be legal?

This can be said for CP's since they do not offer 100% viablity to some characters.
Rainbow cruise is bad for Oli and Diddy and a few other characters. its definitely good for Mk.

 

[buenob]

i would say that all the counterpicks definitely do not leave any character in a 100-0 matchup... even on RC olimar is a strong hitter with a large grab range... abusing the walkoffs and his aerial moves for cover will mean a good olimar will still hold his own... yeah it is very bad for him... but not un-winnable

as for the corneria level, if you as sonic were camping on the LHS, i would go up to the tip and camp up there, spamming fully charged tops // some lazers at you until you mess up... if you try to approach I would go down to the back, yeah I know sonic is fast but with the angled level I can cover your advance with my laser... you wouldn't ever graab my top, and as soon as I get the % advantage I could just go down and wait... _by no means does that garuntee me a win_ but it does prove that I can force the play there

 

[ShadowLink84]

i would say that all the counterpicks definitely do not leave any character in a 100-0 matchup... even on RC olimar is a strong hitter with a large grab range... abusing the walkoffs and his aerial moves for cover will mean a good olimar will still hold his own... yeah it is very bad for him... but not un-winnable

Yes so in what way does RO's camping cause a 100-0 matchup considering there are several characters capable of dealing with his campipng ability?

l
as for the corneria level, if you as sonic were camping on the LHS, i would go up to the tip and camp up there, spamming fully charged tops // some lazers at you until you mess up... if you try to approach I would go down to the back, yeah I know sonic is fast but with the angled level I can cover your advance with my laser... you wouldn't ever graab my top, and as soon as I get the % advantage I could just go down and wait... _by no means does that garuntee me a win_ but it does prove that I can force the play there

Id like to test things out before sying anythng

 

[infomon]

This can be said for CP's since they do not offer 100% viablity to some characters.

A character being 100% unviable is different than a character being 100% viable.

Yes so in what way does RO's camping cause a 100-0 matchup considering there are several characters capable of dealing with his campipng ability?

Having a 100:0 against one character doesn't mean there aren't others that are viable.

The existence of characters that can deal with ROB's camping is irrelevant to whether or not Ganon gets 100:0'd (for example).

buenob: If the big Corneria laser is alive, ROB can't fire his laser or gyro at a LHS-camping Sonic without hovering in the way of the big laser. It's a risk you'd have to take; not to mention Sonic's own tricks. I actually don't see this situation working out in Sonic's favour; but it seems to suck for both parties, which makes it interesting

 

[buenob]

sonic under the front == stalling == immediate loss... as a decently intelligent player, I would wait for you to pop up to be 'not stalling' to hit you with everything i've got... also, if "stalling" isn't banned then I would wait for the lasers to fire, grab the edge and see what you do... if you continue to be predictable and do the homing attack, i would drop down and laser you, and then grab the edge again... rinse and repeat (or mix it up and go in for a NAIR/FAIR depending on the situation, I don't know I've never actually tried lol) until sonic dies

 

[infomon]

If ROB can hang out at the bottom-right, then Sonic can hang out at the bottom-left. It's not stalling if the opponent can approach, even if it's to their disadvantage.... right?

The Sonic HA-stall is so misunderstood There aren't many legal stages where this can actually be used to stall. Corneria might be one of the only ones, in fact, and that's if Sonic is stalling under the very bottom of the ship, and the opponent doesn't have PK thunder.

But yeah if you're hanging on the ledge, Sonic's homing attack might be.... funny.... you'd both have to practice this a bunch to learn how to work it properly.

I really wanna test this scenario, although it would require a good amount of time..... I suicide with HA a lot, but 90% of the time it's avoidable if I knew how to control it better.

..... even though there's not much to it, really like there's no tech-skill involved, just timing and spacing.

 

[Vorguen]

With most of the banned stages it is pretty clear as to why they are banned.. Some of the ones in the neutral/Counter and Counter/ban are a little bit more iffy. You guys should show your arguments for certain decisions, would help us understand them better.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I already compiled arguments for why Distant Planet, Jungle Japes, and Green Greens should, in my opinion, be counterpicks. I'm trying to put together a general document that TOs would find convincing that could protect some of these "at risk" stages that are probably stages people could be convinced about. You can find the arguments here.

Green Greens: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6389290&postcount=3650

Jungle Japes: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6333598&postcount=3553

Distant Planet: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6272743&postcount=3493

There was quite a bit of disagreement about Green Greens in the end; making a solid case for that stage that people actually find convincing is tricky. However, I think the Jungle Japes and Distant Planet cases worked out really well. Of course, if you have any suggestions for improvements on any arguments or just disagree with them on any random point, discussing that would be productive.

Anyway, speaking of discussing, why does everyone hate Onett? It's pretty obviously more fair than Green Hill Zone and Mario Circuit, but for some reason no one wants to allow it. I'm a pretty big Onett fan myself and have had nothing but good matches there with the cars being very useful in moderating wall abuse (and walls are better than walk-offs anyway...). I worry that Onett isn't an argument that can be won because so many people have an intense, irrational hatred of Onett (perhaps the same reason everyone randomly shows Ness and, to a lesser extent, Lucas no respect?). It's still an interesting stage though.

By the way about Corneria, I don't see why the lower area is so great for R.O.B.. I'd just join him down there, play with the ledge better than he can, and not make the idiotic mistake of standing right next to the wall so R.O.B. gets nothing out of that wall (though if he wants to stand there I'd be happy to exploit the situation). Also, Sonic homing stall under Corneria would basically be total nonsense; it's pretty silly to allow it given how completely unreasonable the area with the gun is for almost the entire cast. Maybe R.O.B. can fly and laser, but what does Ganon do? I'm pretty sure Ganon just loses to what is ultimately a pretty blatant stalling tactic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

A character being 100% unviable is different than a character being 100% viable.

Except no character is at a 100-0 disadvantage on that stage. and my point was that there are stil always other characters who do well.

Having a 100:0 against one character doesn't mean there aren't others that are viable.

The existence of characters that can deal with ROB's camping is irrelevant to whether or not Ganon gets 100:0'd (for example).

it doesn't matter if a character end up getting 100-0 on that map. if it were that the majority of the cast was having such an issue, then it is something to be concerned with.

 

[Drakar]

well falcos lazer lock is perfect for FD

 

[Pink murder]

Why is the bridge banned?
Oh.. well there is that big monkey that drops a huge barrel of explosives in the middle of the fight :/
Well that sucks >.>
I personally enjoy the bridge.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's more about the Bridge of Eldin being a huge walk-off without even any platforms to protect you and being a very campy stage due to the size. The stage is also pretty bad with Falco and Pit around because they can spam across the entire thing. It's a relatively inoffensive counterpick and should be legal in doubles, but in singles it just gets pretty dumb.

 

[Pink murder]

Ahhhh
so thats it...
well that clears up alot, thanks ^^

 

[infomon]

Except no character is at a 100-0 disadvantage on that stage. and my point was that there are stil always other characters who do well.

(...)

it doesn't matter if a character end up getting 100-0 on that map. if it were that the majority of the cast was having such an issue, then it is something to be concerned with.

huh? I'm not trying to debate with you, I just want to understand your argument.... If a stage 100:0's a character (ie. that character is totally unviable), in your opinion does that make the stage ban-worthy? If yes, then what if the stage only causes a 100:0 in some matchups; how many would it take?

If a stage makes one character 100:0 some of the cast, does that make the stage ban-worthy? How many people would a character need to 100:0 for it to pass the threshold?

I think that might clear things up, if you could answer those. I can't answer them, I'm really not sure

 

[ShadowLink84]

huh? I'm not trying to debate with you, I just want to understand your argument.... If a stage 100:0's a character (ie. that character is totally unviable), in your opinion does that make the stage ban-worthy? If yes, then what if the stage only causes a 100:0 in some matchups; how many would it take?

If a stage makes one character 100:0 some of the cast, does that make the stage ban-worthy? How many people would a character need to 100:0 for it to pass the threshold?

I think that might clear things up, if you could answer those. I can't answer them, I'm really not sure

Sorry I usually answer things late at night so my thoughts don't come out as I intend them.

If a stage makes only one character 100:0 then it isn't ban worthy. Simply because it would mean that the stage hurts only one character and isn't hurting the gameplay involved overall.

If it were that one character gets 100:0 on everyone else on a stage, it is ban worthy.
For example Fox or Sonic on hyrule. Hit the opponent once, run away, win.
This is most rare but it does happen considering Shadow Moses Island.

if a strategy r character becomes so very dominant that it falls down to "play this character/strategy or lose" then the stage should be banned.

Or if a stage creates a major disturbance in gameplay. i.e. Aero Port Drive.


Am I clearer?

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Only Change I want is that Yoshi's Island (Melee) move to counter/banned. It't too easy to die in that stage at a low percent most of the time. ☆

 

[infomon]

Thanks ShadowLink, that's fine. I think I agree about the 100:0's..... I guess my next question then is, how many characters need to get 0'd by a stage for it to be ban-worthy? I mean, if a stage knocks out half the cast from viability (as has been argued for Big Blue: "no ground approach, ground-based characters insta-fail"), is that ban-worthy? What if it's only 5 characters (the 5 that get standing-infinited by DeDeDe)?

Or if a stage creates a major disturbance in gameplay. i.e. Aero Port Drive.

Aaah, there's the hard part. 100:0's can be reasonably verified and acknowledged.... but what constitutes a "major disturbance in gameplay", and why is that unfair? (ie. some characters were arguably designed to be able to deal with them easier than others, and that's part of the balance of the game.)

These are questions for everyone, not just you

 

[Vorguen]

☆ Only Change I want is that Yoshi's Island (Melee) move to counter/banned. It't too easy to die in that stage at a low percent most of the time. ☆

I don't know if it necessarily should be banned but it's true that it is extremely annoying. General distaste is not a good reason to ban a stage, I'd say it's only a good reason to keep it in counterpick.

 

[Linkshot]

It's easy for D3 to chaingrab off the right side, I hear.

I agree with Infzy. The characters were designed to excel. Sudden Death was implemented to STOP the circle camping strategy. As such, how about a general rule that if no stocks have been lost, Sudden Death counts?

 

[infomon]

No, sudden death is not compatible with competitive play:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=km7yGPEfglU

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thanks ShadowLink, that's fine. I think I agree about the 100:0's..... I guess my next question then is, how many characters need to get 0'd by a stage for it to be ban-worthy? I mean, if a stage knocks out half the cast from viability (as has been argued for Big Blue: "no ground approach, ground-based characters insta-fail"), is that ban-worthy? What if it's only 5 characters (the 5 that get standing-infinited by DeDeDe)?

Like I said if its only 5 out of a cast of 35, its not ban worthy since you have plenty of options and aren't forced to use this character or strategy or risk losing.

I would say anything greater than 50%.
Mainly since its the most objective thing possible number wise because anytihng over 50% would be a majority.

Aaah, there's the hard part. 100:0's can be reasonably verified and acknowledged.... but what constitutes a "major disturbance in gameplay", and why is that unfair? (ie. some characters were arguably designed to be able to deal with them easier than others, and that's part of the balance of the game.)

These are questions for everyone, not just you

A major disturbance would be something like Big blue or Aero port drive.
Meawnhile tinhgs like pokefloats or RC is okay.
of course such cases must be tested but if the stage's behavior becomes the main priority in a battle, it is definitely a warning flag.

 

[Kage Me]

No, sudden death is not compatible with competitive play:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=km7yGPEfglU

So don't taunt =p

Anyway, isn't there a rule about deliberately avoiding combat? My, what was it called again...? Oh right, stalling.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Randomly falling bombs are Codswallop. It could just blow up on you when you are recovering from a move's lag, after an air dodge, and many other situations where you can't do anything about getting hit. Those falling bombs actually FORCE you to ledge stall. Breaking stock ties by percentages is better for many purposes.

 

[Linkshot]

Then instead, a rule that if both people are still on their first stock by the end of the match, it counts as a loss for the competitor that was clearly running away. If they manage to take a stock off, then they should go for it.

 

[Milky]

i think the list is pretty good. i hate the stages that you can kill with spikes and the only way to be killed is off the top or sides.

 

[Linkshot]

So...you hate...all stages?

 

[The Milk Monster]

i think the list is pretty good. i hate the stages that you can kill with spikes and the only way to be killed is off the top or sides.

Yeah so basically you're saying you hate all stages.
Which stages do you like?

 

[xDD-Master]

Put in cant instead of can i think ^^

He hates Stages in which you cant spike ^^

 

[Linkshot]

Ah. That makes more sense. I can tolerate any stage that doesn't give blatant advantages to a single strategy.

 

[Crackle]

PokeStad2: Air Form Why on earth is that tournament legal? It's boringly slow, that should be good enough reason to get rid of it.

Yoshi's Island (Pipes): I'm okay with this, but I don't see why a slanted walk-off part of any stage is legal.

Random Question: Milk!! do you know what RPC is by any chance?

 

[Kage Me]

PokeStad2: Air Form Why on earth is that tournament legal? It's boringly slow, that should be good enough reason to get rid of it.

Same reason the walk-off on Delfino Plaza is legal.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

PokeStad2: Air Form Why on earth is that tournament legal? It's boringly slow, that should be good enough reason to get rid of it.

Yoshi's Island (Pipes): I'm okay with this, but I don't see why a slanted walk-off part of any stage is legal.

Random Question: Milk!! do you know what RPC is by any chance?

No, boringly slow is NOT a reason to get rid of any stage, but if it bugs you so much just use a plunging down aerial. It's really not hard to use the wind to take the offensive; loads of characters have things that work very well in the wind.

As per the slanted walk-off, just don't let King Dedede walk you off it. It's actually not that hard. Why shouldn't it be legal? It's not actually that exploitable overall.

 

[Mattsy]

I play a decent Yoshi player all the time who counterpicks Pokemon Stadium 2 just for the air form to KO me off the top.

It's infuriating. Plus many of the other forms just make fighting difficult and are crazily advantageous if you're in the wrong place when they change--in the air with air form, at the sides with electric form.

It's definitely not worthy of being neutral. Counterpick at best, Counterpick/Banned preferably.