Official Stage Legality Discussion

[nuro]

I don't think this is as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. Most of the stages in the game will be banned simply because they do not give both players a even chance of winning. I've seen people about to win get gimped by stages like Frigate costing them their tournament match. I wouldn't 90% of the stages to be on if I was in the grand finals of a major tournament. I know some stages can give major disadvantages to someone if they are unlucky. Tournaments are not supposed to be taken lightly. Tournaments are for serious competition not for random luck.

This is just my own version of what I think the stages should be. I'll put random brief explanations besides some of them. )

Neutral Stages:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Brawl Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium (Not perfect. Windmill and walls make it unbalanced. Not sure if it should be neutral but good stage overall.)

Counterpicks:
Halberd (stage hazards are not extremely difficult to avoid)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (stage hazards make this stage bad but they don't last for a long time before the stage changes back into a neutral.)
Pictochat (Stage hazards do not often give people random gimps
Delfino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

Between Banned and Counter: I don't think any of these stages should be counterpicks but I will say they are more balanced then the ones listed under banned.
-Luigi's Mansion (Its easy to camp the ceilings and have high percentage. It gives some characters too large of a chance of winning.)
-NorFair (The major unbalanced stage hazard is the 3 strips of lava that sprays from the background and kills at low percents. Other than that the hazards are easy to avoid once you understand how to avoid them. For instance the lava from the background you can simply shield. Great stage to get rid of D3's chaingrab though.)
-Hanenbow (The platforms are set up in a awkward position making it unbalanced. Besides that characters can camp/run away. Especially ROB. I like it to get rid of D3s chaingrab though. )
-Frigate Orpheon (One part cannot be tethered gimping certain characters. Stage hazards are sometimes impossible to avoid.)
-Distant Planet (the walk off on the left side can be camped causing stupid gimps)
-Castle Siege (the problem with this stage is the second part. D3 can chaingrab someone easily off of the stage. Of course the other person can just run away from D3 but that delays the match and tournaments need to be running faster since they are slow already.)

Banned Stages:
Bridge of Eldin
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar (Ceiling is unbalanced and Stage Hazards)
Shadow Moses Island (D3 infinite on the walls, walls make it unbalanced and it has walkoffs)
Port Town Aero Dive (stage hazards and parts have walkoffs)
Wariorware, Inc.
New Pork City
Summit (campy no teathers and stage hazards)
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple (campy and walls/ceilings make it unbalanced)
Melee Yoshi's Island
Jungle Japes (major gimps)
Big Blue
Green Hill Zone
Mario Circuit
Skyworld (too campy and ceilings make it unbalanced)
Onett (D3 Chaingrab bans this)
Green Greens (D3 Chaingrab bans this)
-Corneria (The wall is much more unbalanced now with the easier ability to camp and infinite off of it.)
Pirate ship

Ultimately, its up to the tournament host to decide though. I think with Brawl hosts will have different rules from each other. After all, the stage selection in Brawl is much more unique. It's probably best if there is variety in each tournaments rules.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

hEY WAIT about Shadow Moses Island..
You say D3 can infinite CG here.. but the walls break eventually. And besides that, there are platforms above where he can infinite you, so couldn't you escape there?? And all you have to do is fight on the bottom, not the top most platform, in order to use the platforms as a solution to the infinte--and if you do get caught on top, most characters are fast enough to void dedede long enough for you to press down on your control stick,, making your character go to the bottom most platform.

but then there was walk-offs...

edit: And oh come on don't ban Corneria :/

 

[Mic_128]

Well, tell that to my friend. I have to remind him of the water mechanic on water stages, and then I have to remind him that the water in Hanenbow isn't real water. It fools you into thinking that you'd be safe, and the well of common sense is drying up.

Your friend being- bluntly -stupid, is no reason for banning.

Norfair's problems are:
The design IS a problem, it is made of five platforms of roughly the same size, which means ground based characters have a hard time here (no escaping this one).

It gives arial characters an advantage. No reason to ban.

Brinstar was OK since there was a large platform at the bottom and there was only one source of the acid: from below. Norfair essentially took this idea and gave it steroids. Not only do you have to worry about problems form below, but also from the sides and the background.

Like Brinstar, the lava isn't 1hKO deadly, and if sensible can be easily avoided. No reason for Ban.

While the Lava wave is easy to avoid, people will try to prevent you from shielding in a real competitive environment.

Like every other hazard on every other Counterpick stage. No reason to ban.

 

[Charizard92]

Brinstar's acid can't be comboed into a ohko, it can even save you. Norfair, different story. The lava level is OK, but then you add a wall (that I never stopped saying is possible to combo into a KO at lower percentages), the spray (which many people complain is unpredictable, and it is), and the lava tsunami (the it-can-easily-be-dodged excuse didn't save Port town and it shouldn't save Norfair either). Why is this CP, it is not, there is nothing screaming CP, it is screaming ban, it is near CP according to you guys, but I don't see it.

 

[Oracle]

hEY WAIT about Shadow Moses Island..
You say D3 can infinite CG here.. but the walls break eventually. And besides that, there are platforms above where he can infinite you, so couldn't you escape there?? And all you have to do is fight on the bottom, not the top most platform, in order to use the platforms as a solution to the infinte--and if you do get caught on top, most characters are fast enough to void dedede long enough for you to press down on your control stick,, making your character go to the bottom most platform.

but then there was walk-offs...

edit: And oh come on don't ban Corneria :/

Even when the walls are gone there are still walk offs. This so called "platform" does not exist unless you break the bottom wall, and even then it is impossible to realistically stay on a small platform the entire match.

Corneria has a giant wall!!!! It's half the map!!!

To address Charizard:

Brinstar's acid can't be comboed into a ohko, it can even save you. Norfair, different story. The lava level is OK, but then you add a wall (that I never stopped saying is possible to combo into a KO at lower percentages)

That doesn't unfairly disadvantage one player over the other or make a sizeable random factor.

, the spray (which many people complain is unpredictable, and it is),

The spray is completely predictable. You have a few seconds of warning and the map is plenty large enough to move

and the lava tsunami (the it-can-easily-be-dodged excuse didn't save Port town and it shouldn't save Norfair either)

The lava tsunami is ridiculously easy to dodge, and since it comes from the z axis, you can't easily be hit into it. Even if you are so bad that you can't dodge it, there's a nice safe house for you to get to.

Why is this CP, it is not, there is nothing screaming CP, it is screaming ban, it is near CP according to you guys, but I don't see it.

All of the hazards are predictable and easy to see coming, and even then, don't give random advantages.

 

[Oracle]

double post my b

 

[MysticKenji]

(the it-can-easily-be-dodged excuse didn't save Port town and it shouldn't save Norfair either)

Except in the case of Norfair's lava wave, it's always true.
Port Town has various lengths of warning time.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, half of the stuff on Norair isn't enough to ban it, but what about the other half, the wall can be used for cheap and potentially lethal combos, and the spray is not very predictable.

 

[MysticKenji]

the wall can be used for cheap and potentially lethal combos,

Name a few.

and the spray is not very predictable.

What's not predictable about a ****ING GIANT burst of lava?
Go to a different platfrorm.

 

[Charizard92]

At around 60% damage or so, a Dthrow by a certain tiny turtle Pokemon can KO from the top by hitting a lava wall. Not much, the spray is kinda large, and will engulf more than one platform (like one and two halves of the nearby platforms), it isn't easy to avoid. Not to mention that sometimes, more than one spray can occur at a time, greatly decreasing the amount of land there. It appears with no warning and is harder to avoid than it seems, namely since more than one fountain can hit the stage at a time.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Because they aren't neutral. Some characters get advantages, and CP's are a way to counter that.

Now what do you think about my 2nd idea of putting all the neutrals and CP's on random like a double blind stage pick?

Also if they are not neutral, then why do we call them that? (and don't say because you can kill from all sides, and no stage hazards. I know that lolx.)

 

[Charizard92]

^ A: what do you mean about the second statement? If it's why are stages neutral, the no-hazard or free-to-KO-everywhere Idea is false (otherwise Temple would be neutral [shudders]) a neutral stage is supposed to be the most fair (or as fair as humanly possible), while Banned stages contain either:
A: An object that is easily exploited (ex large size and walls)
B: Something that makes a KO, accidental or cheap, very easy to do (Port Town and New Pork, for example)
C: Makes fighting your opponent harder than it should (ex. fighting the stage more than your opponent, or making hitting your opponent near impossible [I'm pretty sure Norfair fills out the first one, the second goes to large stages)
D: Disorienting hazards (lets just call this Mt. Coronet, or [if you don't get the reference] the stage with the blue and pink Dino like deities along with that thing with the annoying flying razors)

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

^ A: what do you mean about the second statement? If it's why are stages neutral, the no-hazard or free-to-KO-everywhere Idea is false (otherwise Temple would be neutral [shudders]) a neutral stage is supposed to be the most fair (or as fair as humanly possible)

So is most fair (or as fair as humanly possible) mean that characters can't have an advantage or what?

I thought it was at least fair ground....also I understand the banned stages but if someone is struggling with a CP hazard then opponent is always using it to their advantage IMO (I also understand that's the point I was just saying lolx)

 

[Charizard92]

^that is kinda my problem with Norfair. You have to not only attack your opponent, you have to survive the stage as well. Multitasking, if you ask any expert, is more problematic in practically everything. To explain try rubbing your belly while patting your head (or did i get it backwards). See how hard it is to do, try fighting someone while being pelted with something in real life (like on reality television). The second one is essentially Norfair, on a less lethal scale, which, should cause problems, because you are either hitting your opponent or trying not to get a face full of lava, and if you don't focus on both at the same time (when the hazards activate), you either get hit by lava or your opponent, which loses it's fun fast (unless you are on drugs, which I don't recomend).

 

[Oracle]

So is most fair (or as fair as humanly possible) mean that characters can't have an advantage or what?

I thought it was at least fair ground....also I understand the banned stages but if someone is struggling with a CP hazard then opponent is always using it to their advantage IMO (I also understand that's the point I was just saying lolx)

Neutral give the least amount of advantages to people. It's impossible to completely eliminate advantages, so this is as good as it gets.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

^that is kinda my problem with Norfair. You have to not only attack your opponent, you have to survive the stage as well. Multitasking, if you ask any expert, is more problematic in practically everything. To explain try rubbing your belly while patting your head (or did i get it backwards). See how hard it is to do, try fighting someone while being pelted with something in real life (like on reality television). The second one is essentially Norfair, on a less lethal scale, which, should cause problems, because you are either hitting your opponent or trying not to get a face full of lava, and if you don't focus on both at the same time (when the hazards activate), you either get hit by lava or your opponent, which loses it's fun fast (unless you are on drugs, which I don't recomend).

The first one is easy, but the 2nd is kinda difficult....some people are better at mutitasking than others.

I'm not a fan of norfair only because of the small ground but I play like 80% of the characters anyway so it's no sweat , you can actually use the lava to your advantage.

Neutral give the least amount of advantages to people. It's impossible to completely eliminate advantages, so this is as good as it gets.

And we can't play just those because we need CP to counter the characters that do have advantages right?

 

[Charizard92]

That is a problem, and that can turn stages CP as is, but when combined with the tiny platforms, that, I can't let stand.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

That is a problem, and that can turn stages CP as is, but when combined with the tiny platforms, that, I can't let stand.

From what I know, Norfair is only a CP in doubles so I really can't complain on that note.

 

[MysticKenji]

At around 60% damage or so, a Dthrow by a certain tiny turtle Pokemon can KO from the top by hitting a lava wall.

DI prevents this.

It appears with no warning

The background lava spurt is your warning.

 

[Charizard92]

A what? look, I've tried to find the bubbles when the fish appears in summit and couldn't find it, so if I don't know what you are talking about and/or don't see it, that would be an obvious problem, because if I can't see it, who else can't see it too?

 

[Mic_128]

The lava level is OK, but then you add a wall (that I never stopped saying is possible to combo into a KO at lower percentages)

The lava blasts you sideways, not upwards, not diagonally up, sideways.

And if you get juggled against it, learn to air-dodge better, as it's a valid tactic.

the spray (which many people complain is unpredictable, and it is)

Bright Pink lava spurts from the background which is a dull brown/grey? If you can't see that coming and get out of the way (or shield) then you deserve to be hit. Yes, the hitboxes can be a bit odd, but play on it a few times and you get used to it.

and the lava tsunami (the it-can-easily-be-dodged excuse didn't save Port town and it shouldn't save Norfair either).

The it-can-easily-be-dodged excuse should NEVER have been used for Port town, mainly because the cars ARENT easily dodged. It's fightingfightingfightingomgcarsdead where as this it's fightingfightingscreensdarkenedbiglavawaveinthebackgroundhaveabout5secstobepreparedaaaandavoided for Norfair.

I think I'll just use real words from now on >.>

You have HUGE warning, and it still wont kill you until you're on a respectable percent, whereas PT can kill on as low as 30%

Now what do you think about my 2nd idea of putting all the neutrals and CP's on random like a double blind stage pick?

Yay I randomly got a SECOND stage that favors my opponent yay.

Horrible idea, sorry.

Also if they are not neutral, then why do we call them that? (and don't say because you can kill from all sides, and no stage hazards. I know that lolx.)

We don't call them Neutral, haven't for ages. They're called 'Starter' now.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Sorry, but Norfair is a banned stage in my mind no doubt. There is way too much lava that bombards you through out the game which causes a slow down in play as players shift their focus to dodging the lava. A stage hazard can only interfere with the game so much, and Norfair crosses that line.

The stage also has stalling issues apparently (even if it doesn't, it has too many problems to be legal).

 

[Skyflyer]

Yoshi's Island should be counter pick

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I want to ask a question, if there weren't D3's CG, where would the stages with walls/walf offs would be?

 

[Tyser]

What is the counterpick list that most people in the world are using now? I need to fix the counterpick list on my tournament thread. Help please.

 

[Sunstar]

I want to ask a question, if there weren't D3's CG, where would the stages with walls/walf offs would be?

i think that they would be banned, too... there is not only DDDs chaingrab i think... some characters may lock others with there aaa... until they have about 80%-90%
that is also unfair

 

[Gygados]

I belive the following stages should be banned;

Mushroomy Kingdom:
It does scroll at a leisurely pace, but a minority of the time is spent avoiding the left. World 1-2 is just way overcrowded, and you can be Koed easily at the top.

Rumble falls:
Like someone said earlier, you concentrate too much on moving than fighting, and those spikes are evil!

Norfair:
There seems to be a lot of controversy on this one, so I'll pass judgement.

Skyworld:
Simply by destroying the floor can you kill an opponent with a tether-based recovery, like Ivysaur. The ceiling makes this stage unfair, too.

Flat World 2:
Constantly changing platforms make this stage hard to battle on. And just look at that "Zoo" level.

WarioWare:
Changes the stage itself and even giving characters advantages like invincibility are far too much to ignore.

75m and Mario Bros.
75m because of the annoying ladders and very little space to actually battle (and it's huge), and Mario Bros. because it slices up the rules of Smash, and then feeds it to the dog.

Distant Planet:
I can't think of anything othet than the speedy water on the left, so I'll leave this one to you

New Pork City:
It's far too big. You could just run away constantly.

Electroplankton:
You can't have a proper fight, and it's too big. Very few arguments here.

Green Hill Zone and Shadow Moses:
I'll leave this one to you, but I thing the loop and high walls could alter play.

Port Town:
No edges on the main platform, Ivysaur and Olimar are dead. The racers are just evil. Same as Mute City in SSBM.

Spear Pillar:
This awesome stage alters PHYSICS, for heaven's sake! Look at Palkia and dare to argue.

Temple, Jungle Japes, and Big Blue, same as Melee.


And there you have it. That was my report from the scene.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Yay I randomly got a SECOND stage that favors my opponent yay.

Horrible idea, sorry.

But, you could say the same thing about a player who is good on any stage with the CP rules.

So IMO it's kind of the same thing - except it's random, and there is no GUARANTEE that you will get a stage your opponent is good at.

Plus - if everyone knows the stages and practices them like there supposed to there really can't be any complaining.
[That has said that before lolx.]

play on it a few times and you get used to it.

 

[Charizard92]

On Chaingrabing: While Dedede's chain grab see,s a reasonable Idea to ban walls and walk offs, this is not enough for most people to ban or CP a stage. Lets take Pokemon Stadium 1 for example. There was an avid war several pages ago about whether or not it was neutral. I was for neutral at that time. The most common argument against PS1 is that the windmill causes problems. This was not enough for me to reconsider and I typically debunked this theory, until a couple of people have told me that the windmill isn't a problem, but the walls on the fire and rock stages were really bad, not to mention that alone, the rock stage would be an outright ban. That is how I accepted PS1 being CP. Same thing applies, strong advocates for, oh I don't know, Delfino plaza's neutrality, won't accept one character's chain grabbing as an excuse. Here is a more reasonable explanation on why to ban walk offs.

THEY MAKE IT EASIER TO KO SOMEBODY THAN NORMAL!

and walls?

THEY PROMOTE INFINITES, WHICH CAN BE PERFORMED BY MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER IN BRAWL!

now I'm done.

 

[Griffard]

I agree that Delfino should be a counterpick, due to the fact that every location has either walk offs, walls, or water, but I think that PS1 could really be either. The windmill doesn't alter much (if you show me a video i'll surely reconsider) and the walls are easy to avoid for the 20 or so seconds that the stage is in that transformation. I guess counterpick is acceptable, but neutral would be cool beans too

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

I agree that Delfino should be a counterpick, due to the fact that every location has either walk offs, walls, or water, but I think that PS1 could really be either. The windmill doesn't alter much (if you show me a video i'll surely reconsider) and the walls are easy to avoid for the 20 or so seconds that the stage is in that transformation. I guess counterpick is acceptable, but neutral would be cool beans too

Regardless, to keep the johning to a minimum I would put it as a counter pick. IMO

 

[AlexX]

Regardless, to keep the johning to a minimum I would put it as a counter pick. IMO

CP-ing a stage just to prevent johning is rediculous, because if someone is going to john they're going to do it. Won't matter whether the fight was at Final Destination or Pokemon Stadium 1.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

CP-ing a stage just to prevent johning is rediculous, because if someone is going to john they're going to do it. Won't matter whether the fight was at Final Destination or Pokemon Stadium 1.

True.

Seriously though, the only real complaints are the 2 wall sections and the non go through windmill - also the small camping promotion on the left side of the rock section.

I guess that's up you all lolx.

 

[Marionation_Gear]

Almost all of my random stages are banned....Pirate Ship, Norfair, Temple, Luigi's Mansion, Spear Pillar, Big Blue...I'm pathetic.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Almost all of my random stages are banned....Pirate Ship, Norfair, Temple, Luigi's Mansion, Spear Pillar, Big Blue...I'm pathetic.

No, because you at least listen and learn to what the competitive smash community offers to newbies, and this is what will (hopefully) make you a good player some day.

Just throwing this out there with chaingrabs; I don't know if anybody's thought of it yet, but IMO, chaingrabs with set knockback (release grabs, Dedede's grab, etc.) should be banned while others should be allowed.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

No, because you at least listen and learn to what the competitive smash community offers to newbies, and this is what will (hopefully) make you a good player some day.

Just throwing this out there with chaingrabs; I don't know if anybody's thought of it yet, but IMO, chaingrabs with set knockback (release grabs, Dedede's grab, etc.) should be banned while others should be allowed.

That can't happen with Dedede because you would have to ban him altogether.

Anyway, why is Hanenbow banned in several singles tournaments?

 

[Mic_128]

But, you could say the same thing about a player who is good on any stage with the CP rules.

So IMO it's kind of the same thing - except it's random, and there is no GUARANTEE that you will get a stage your opponent is good at.

Plus - if everyone knows the stages and practices them like there supposed to there really can't be any complaining.

My point is not that the stage favors the player but the character. For example, say I play against a ROB on Lylat as the first match as snake. Lylat's tilt can give rob a slight advantage with his projectiles. Now, I lose that match and now the random counter is Rainbow Cruise, which is a good Snake counter (bad aerial control) and I lose because of having a second random stage that favors my opponent.

The current system, each player takes turns 'striking' a starter stage each (this way you can remove ones you think favor your opponent, or you just dont want to play on while they do the same) and eventually come out to a stage that is 'fair' for both. Then the loser can pick a stage that gives them an advantage, and then if the first winner loses, then he can pick one to his advantage.

Overall, it's a fair system and works well.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

No, because you at least listen and learn to what the competitive smash community offers to newbies, and this is what will (hopefully) make you a good player some day.

Just throwing this out there with chaingrabs; I don't know if anybody's thought of it yet, but IMO, chaingrabs with set knockback (release grabs, Dedede's grab, etc.) should be banned while others should be allowed.

eww no,dont make yoshi's complain moar...

 

[AlexX]

Seriously though, the only real complaints are the 2 wall sections and the non go through windmill - also the small camping promotion on the left side of the rock section.

But the thing is, all those things save the windmill were in Melee as well, yet there it was a starter stage.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

But the thing is, all those things save the windmill were in Melee as well, yet there it was a starter stage.

True, I use it as a starter....I have no prob with the windmill.

[Bold] True. I think it should still be a starter because the terrain is not there long...lolz