Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Daimonster]

That's why I ask why can't we just play on just the neutral stages only?

Good point, I fancy this idea but tournaments with advanced slob picks do not work this way.

In addition, Final Destination is a good *advantageous stage to some characters such as snake and falco. Falco can use his strictly linear projectile on this stage to great effect and snake has a great time controlling space on this stage. Metaknight has a better suitable advantage on battlefield than he does on any of the other neutrals. The landing lag on platforms give him ample opportunity to punish on stage recovery with shuttle loops and nairs. Also, he has a great startup position on the left and right platforms for starting tornado. He cannot be punished if player attacks opponent away from the platform and decides to recover back onto the platform without using a highly effective tornado punisher i.e d3's u.tilt.

If there was a neutral similar to lylat (mix BF and SV); that stage could possibly be the most balanced stage. A stage with yoshi island type ground, spread out evenly platforms (BF) and the stage did not tilt (curses lylat) then that stage would cover lots of positioning balances. Battlefield from melee comes to mind with perhaps a wider base floor.

Counterpick stage options do not need to be taken out because the previous winner should have the advantage of not only being capable of winning the game a 2nd go around; but also be able to counterpick as well if he/she were to lose.

What I hate about the counterpick list at the moment is that some players will purposefully go to a stage that attacks him or his opponent at random in order to cause rediculous deaths. If I were to counterpick a stage, my conditions of a good stage would not be how often a pirate ship can hit my opponent, lazers from corneria, claws and blasts from halberd or any battle affecting nuisances. To any degree, why do players like halberd if delfino and frigate orpheon have the same properties? If you wanna go under the stage and abuse your strong aerial game, then go to delfino. If you want a lowered base floor with a SH distance platform then go to frigate orpheon.

 

[Daimonster]

people are over reacting about the hazards, and advantages, they are just more things adding to the fact that the stages are CP.

This is not an over reaction. Sometimes the camera angle, zoom or however it works does not allow you to react to background stage attackings. These obstacles effect the fight enough to which each character pays more attention to avoiding the stage than their opponents characters.

 

[Xona]

i agree that we should try and save stages if possible. if two moves make that level banned then we should ban those moves instead.

Agreed, or those 2 moves can simply be banned on that stage but nowhere else. Banning walls and walk-offs because of Dedede Chain-Grabbing is like banning stages because of Wobbling. If we did that in Melee, the first stage that would be banned is fd. On a liberal scale, that is probbably it. But on a conservative scale, every stage but Icicle Mountain, Big Blue, Rainbow Cruise, Poke Floats and maybe Brinstar Depths would be banned.

Back to Brawl, Dedede Chain-Grabbing is still not as broken as Ice Climbers Chain-Grabbing if either is broken. Dedede Chain-Grabbing always works on Samus, Bowser, and 3 others if executed perfectly. There are still 12 characters Dedede Chain-Grabbing never works on. Ice Climber's infinite Chain-Grabbing and Ice-Block-Infinite work on everyone except Ice Climbers. They do only work when you have both Ice Climbers, but Popo and Nana don't edge-hog eachother. The only 2 ways out are KO'ing Nana, and "Don't get grabbed". "Don't get grabbed" doesn't work on fd, and bridge of eldin because they're. If we say "don't get grabbed", yet we ban stages because of said tactic, then we don't truly believe in "don't get grabbed". If Dedede CG'ing is single-handedly enough to ban stages with walls and walk-offs, then Ice Climber Chain-grabbing is enough on a conservative scale to ban every stage in the game except Rumble Falls, Big Blue, Norfair, and Rainbow Cruise. It would definitely be enough to ban fd and bridge of eldin (which I refuse to capitalize). That's why Dedede Chain-Grabbing shouldn't ban stages, because Ice Climbers Chain-Grabs would then ban almost every stage. "Don't get grabbed" would save only those 4 stages and maybe a few others.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Agreed, or those 2 moves can simply be banned on that stage but nowhere else. Banning walls and walk-offs because of Dedede Chain-Grabbing is like banning stages because of Wobbling. If we did that in Melee, the first stage that would be banned is fd. On a liberal scale, that is probbably it. But on a conservative scale, every stage but Icicle Mountain, Big Blue, Rainbow Cruise, Poke Floats and maybe Brinstar Depths would be banned.

Back to Brawl, Dedede Chain-Grabbing is still not as broken as Ice Climbers Chain-Grabbing if either is broken. Dedede Chain-Grabbing always works on Samus, Bowser, and 3 others if executed perfectly.

idk if you hadnt noticed but,neither are broken,they can be DI'd out of(marth espcially)

and "Don't get grabbed". "Don't get grabbed" doesn't work on fd, and bridge of eldin because they're. If we say "don't get grabbed", yet we ban stages because of said tactic, then we don't truly believe in "don't get grabbed". If Dedede CG'ing is single-handedly enough to ban stages with walls and walk-offs, then Ice Climber Chain-grabbing is enough on a conservative scale to ban every stage in the game except Rumble Falls, Big Blue, Norfair, and Rainbow Cruise. It would definitely be enough to ban fd and bridge of eldin (which I refuse to capitalize). That's why Dedede Chain-Grabbing shouldn't ban stages, because Ice Climbers Chain-Grabs would then ban almost every stage. "Don't get grabbed" would save only those 4 stages and maybe a few others.

how does it not work on FD,you're ovbiously missing the key concept of not getting grabbed,alot of character outrange ICs,and others just have to SPACE theirselves,DDDs CG is not the olny reason to ban walkoffs and walls,some chars. have a jab infinite on walls and anyone can just camp at the edge of a walkoff.

 

[Daimonster]

snip

There is no reason to ban a move in a characters moveset. A player should not be told that he or she cannot use x or y moves. If anything, a limit to x amount of CG should be implemented. However, this discussion is not about CG's more so than it is about stages.

Certain stages deserve a ban simply because of platform placement. Take Shadow Moses for example; the stage cries for you to CG with d3 or trap characters against the walls with numerous characters d.tilts. The main reason for this stage being banned is that the stage itself promotes one specific strategy. This strategy devolves the fighting into one or 2 aspects which make the game extensively simple.

Saving more and more stages for /emphasis Tournament play is redundant. I'll give a quick breakdown as to why certain stages deserve a ban for abusive strategic purposes. These stages are ones that I believe you (some posters) wish to save.

Distant planet: the slope on the far left can be camped which stands near the KO side wall. Similar to green hill zone and yoshis story (melee), this sit here and camp is an abusive method of koing.
___***yes i knocked out GHZ and YS (melee) with distant planet

Halberd: The stage targets a player which forces him to approach his opponent or edgehog himself. This is a definite hazard which places said target in a disadvantageous position. The stage is similar to lylat but attacks the players ever so often.

Pirate Ship: Once again, camera angles sometime prevent the ability to see bomb shots coming. Water camping is also extremely abusive with characters that have strong knockback aerials.

I can go on and on about other stages but without extensive testing...My arguments are strictly preferring how I believe the game should be played and not extreme game abusive tactics. Pokemon stadium 2 for example would be a nice counterpick stage, but the stage conditions discourage approach options. This could be a liable reason for a counterpick stage, but until further testing...my opinion is biased against Pokemon stadium 2.

 

[Oracle]

Agreed, or those 2 moves can simply be banned on that stage but nowhere else. Banning walls and walk-offs because of Dedede Chain-Grabbing is like banning stages because of Wobbling. If we did that in Melee, the first stage that would be banned is fd. On a liberal scale, that is probbably it. But on a conservative scale, every stage but Icicle Mountain, Big Blue, Rainbow Cruise, Poke Floats and maybe Brinstar Depths would be banned.

Back to Brawl, Dedede Chain-Grabbing is still not as broken as Ice Climbers Chain-Grabbing if either is broken. Dedede Chain-Grabbing always works on Samus, Bowser, and 3 others if executed perfectly. There are still 12 characters Dedede Chain-Grabbing never works on. Ice Climber's infinite Chain-Grabbing and Ice-Block-Infinite work on everyone except Ice Climbers. They do only work when you have both Ice Climbers, but Popo and Nana don't edge-hog eachother. The only 2 ways out are KO'ing Nana, and "Don't get grabbed". "Don't get grabbed" doesn't work on fd, and bridge of eldin because they're. If we say "don't get grabbed", yet we ban stages because of said tactic, then we don't truly believe in "don't get grabbed". If Dedede CG'ing is single-handedly enough to ban stages with walls and walk-offs, then Ice Climber Chain-grabbing is enough on a conservative scale to ban every stage in the game except Rumble Falls, Big Blue, Norfair, and Rainbow Cruise. It would definitely be enough to ban fd and bridge of eldin (which I refuse to capitalize). That's why Dedede Chain-Grabbing shouldn't ban stages, because Ice Climbers Chain-Grabs would then ban almost every stage. "Don't get grabbed" would save only those 4 stages and maybe a few others.

We banned wobbling because it is inescapable on every stage and incredibly easy to perform. Even on the moving stages it could be used to rack up damage. IC chain grabs work on every stage, but are difficult to perform, therefore, we cannot ban stages based on the IC chaingrab.
Walls and walkoffs are banned because it is easier to ban a stage then a tactic, because we would have to have a TO at every match at a tourney, watching for a limit on chaingrabs, and even then, what would a correct punishment be? A stock loss? Loss of match?
All because of one technique. Stage-banning is much simpler and effective.

 

[LSDX]

If anything Falco's chain is the worst in terms of chaining due to the above average damage in the grab damage. One chain down Final Destinatio can rack up at least 50%, and that's without applying the jabs.

This goes back to my idea that Delfino should be banned and not counterpick due to three of it's areas consisting of Wall-Offs.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Hey guys, I'm back from a 3-week hiatus / vacation. What'd I miss?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Hey guys, I'm back from a 3-week hiatus / vacation. What'd I miss?

not much,just nub walls of text and ppl trying to ban CGs again : (

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

not much,just nub walls of text and ppl trying to ban CGs again : (

XD yup! now tell them all to leave!

 

[Mic_128]

That's why I ask why can't we just play on just the neutral stages only?

Because they aren't neutral. Some characters get advantages, and CP's are a way to counter that.

What I hate about the counterpick list at the moment is that some players will purposefully go to a stage that attacks him or his opponent at random in order to cause rediculous deaths. If I were to counterpick a stage, my conditions of a good stage would not be how often a pirate ship can hit my opponent, lazers from corneria, claws and blasts from halberd or any battle affecting nuisances.

the thing you have to remember, is that this isn't your traditional fighting game. Platforms, walls, double jumps, so it's not suprising that the wide variety of stage setups are also desired. and if one happens to have a small chance of doing a little damage which can be dodged fairly easy, then why not, we keep it. If the hazard is too much of a disruption, whether in the type, size or deadlyness of it (Sky Pillar) then it's removed.

To any degree, why do players like halberd if delfino and frigate orpheon have the same properties? If you wanna go under the stage and abuse your strong aerial game, then go to delfino. If you want a lowered base floor with a SH distance platform then go to frigate orpheon.

And what if you want both?

 

[Daimonster]

And what if you want both?

Some stages have hazards that can potentially ruin a players match. For example, when all the bombs are cleared on green greens, a player may f.air at his opponent and risks hitting a bomb falling from the sky. This doesn't happen often, but often enough against a player who can infinite you into the blocks which resets the # of blocks falling from the sky. These encounters are in numerous counterpick stages that detract from actual fighting your opponent and more so dealing with the stage itself.

In short, I can deal with certain stages and their ambiguities. However, I would prefer playing a fighter that allows me to focus on my opponent without stage set distractions. Until then, I'll have to deal with players who insist on playing these stages.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Why are stages that promote chain grabbing banned? I know every one here now probably hates me for saying this but... Maybe Dedede was given that awesome chaingrabbing potential... to use it?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Why are stages that promote chain grabbing banned? I know every one here now probably hates me for saying this but... Maybe Dedede was given that awesome chaingrabbing potential... to use it?

yes,he should be allowed to use it,BUT...not abuse it,the walls are his abuse and if we takes those away his abuse is gone and his CG is not so bad,this also applys to IC

 

[Daimonster]

Why are stages that promote chain grabbing banned?

I give up.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Well couldn't you just ban the use of it so much on walls? Instead of throwing away the whole level... Or just get rid of it's potential to be neutral, and enable it as a counterpick. Counterpicks are suppose to give certain characters an advantage right? Well walls for Dedede would be an advantage...

 

[Mic_128]

The problem with limiting chaingrabs is where do you stop it? X number of throws? XXX% damage? Do we need a referee at each wii standing there counting just incase it happens? And what if someone accidently miscalculates and throws just one extra time, or the throw makes the percent go over the limit? Chain grabs aren't banned, but infinite ones that you can't get out of are.

For example, when all the bombs are cleared on green greens, a player may f.air at his opponent and risks hitting a bomb falling from the sky. This doesn't happen often, but often enough against a player who can infinite you into the blocks which resets the # of blocks falling from the sky.

If there aren't any blocks, don't perform aerials when going over where they spawn. It'd be like complaining that DK on 75M can appear and hit you when you're standing in front of him.

However, I would prefer playing a fighter that allows me to focus on my opponent without stage set distractions.

And that's a fine outlook. Just make sure you at least practice on the other stages, so when someone counterpicks you there you don't just fail due to lack of practice on them.

 

[Oracle]

Well couldn't you just ban the use of it so much on walls? Instead of throwing away the whole level... Or just get rid of it's potential to be neutral, and enable it as a counterpick. Counterpicks are suppose to give certain characters an advantage right? Well walls for Dedede would be an advantage...

It gives him a huge advantage over everyone else, and basically gives him the match. Even dedede's who suck have auto win on shadow moses and bridge of elden.

Also, welcome back, Dawn.

 

[Xona]

idk if you hadnt noticed but,neither are broken,they can be DI'd out of(marth espcially)


how does it not work on FD,you're ovbiously missing the key concept of not getting grabbed,alot of character outrange ICs,and others just have to SPACE theirselves,DDDs CG is not the olny reason to ban walkoffs and walls,some chars. have a jab infinite on walls and anyone can just camp at the edge of a walkoff.

I'm specificly stating that Dedede Chain-Grabs shouldn't ban stages, there are 12 who can always escape it and there are 5 who can never escape it. Stage banning is just as wrong as tactic banning. I'm saying that realisticly you will get grabbed, especially on fd. fd is completely flat, not a single platform for Bowser to use against a CG'er. Fox's waveshine banned stages, "don't get shined". Walk-off camping, approach but "don't get grabbed". If we really believed in "don't get grabbed", then we wouldn't ban walk-offs.
There's a new invention called shield-grabbing. If your opponent (Ice Climbers) even has a slight lead (stage is fd), then you (Ike) have to approach, he shield-grabs, BAM! You just got grab-infinited. If there were platforms, you could escape the initial grab, but there aren't. The Ice Climber Chain-Grab I'm refering to is the one where each Ice Climbers alternates between grabs, the other one grabs the second the first one throws, only Ice Climbers can escape this one.
I'm not saying it should be banned, it's just that on the same scale as banning stages because they gimp tether-recoveries, Dedede Chain-Grabbing should be banned. The Ice Climbers have one that's even worse. You're forgetting something, we've banned stages because of wall-infinites and shine-infinites. I could easily say, "don't get shined", "or don't get pushed into a wall", just as you say "don't get grabbed". Also, tripping, I dash away from a grab, the random trip happens, he or she dash-grabs, I just lost a stock from sheer bad luck. Is that fair at all? We have to do something about tripping before we ban stages.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

We can't do ay thing about tripping though!

Anyways the pokemon stadiums shouldn't be banned for walls, because the walls simply aren't permanent. It gives chain grabbers and such an advantage but only for a certain amount of time, which is why they would be prime counter-picks.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Can We Stop Talking About Chaingrabing!?
START A CONVERSATION ABOUT SOMTHING RELATED TO THIS THREAD!

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Can We Stop Talking About Chaingrabing!?
START A CONVERSATION ABOUT SOMTHING RELATED TO THIS THREAD!

yesplz

10stagebans

so how about haenbow?CP?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I personnaly hate hanenbow... but its a stage where chaingrabbing can never take place... in fact, i dont think infinates of any kind work here(xsept 4 IC CG, lulz)
are there enogh ledges? for tether recoverers?

 

[Sunstar]

i agree: i hate hanebow too... the whole look of the stage... i do not like it... the music... everything... the way how you fight threre... it is a pity that there is no reason for a banning TT

but pit with his f-special on a leaf... looks quite funny xD

 

[Oracle]

I think that hannenbrow should be CP just because there isn't anything wrong with it aside from the half-loop. It's a good CP against Toon Link and CGers

Also: CHAIN GRABBING WILL NEVER BE BANNED.
GIVE UP.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, Hanenbow is unlikely to be CP material. I made this thread to check which stages people just plain hate, which are more likely to be banned stages. It is still in it's infancy so you can say what stages you hate, just as long as they are not neutral (as they would be in the opposite end). Here's a link:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185681

 

[Retro Gaming]

Why is Norfair on the banned list? Didn't we discredit the only videos against it, not to mention the theory it can be used to permanently stall has yet to be proven in a tournament setting?

I just want to know more about Norfair, can someone give me the details?

 

[Serris]

Yeah, Hanenbow is unlikely to be CP material. I made this thread to check which stages people just plain hate, which are more likely to be banned stages. It is still in it's infancy so you can say what stages you hate, just as long as they are not neutral (as they would be in the opposite end). Here's a link:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185681

Just because you hate a stage doesn't mean it's banned. There are more reasons to Counterpick Hanenbow than there are to ban it.

The only things against it right now is the potential for stalling and promoting camping.

 

[Charizard92]

Hanenbow has several problems:
1: Hanenbow lacks an actual floor
2: the leaves get in the way every time you hit them.
3: The moving ledges doesn't exactly do wonders
4: the water fools too often, I can't count how many times someone has died because a leaf got out of reach and they failed to realize that the water is fake.

Norfair, is my most hated stage, here's why:
1: the platforms are too small, clearly aerial game is favored.
2: The stage design allows characters like Meta Knight or ZSS to stall for a very long time.
3: Norfair's hazard is essentially take the hazard from previous stages (rising lava) and give it steroids, I have personally used the walls to KO earlier (and with Squirtle's dthrow, Retro, you should know what I'm talking about), the fountain is unpredictable, and it is a frenzy to try to get your opponent to get hit by the tsunami (yes, I know you can shield, but somebody can easily make you vulnerable one way or another. Not very fun.

 

[smashbro29]

Question: Isn't there a list for singles yet?
Another Question:Might this be doubles we're discussing?

 

[AlexX]

Hanenbow has several problems:
1: Hanenbow lacks an actual floor

What are you talking about? The 3 leaves on the lowest part of the stage are the floor, but the excessive platforms make it good for characters that have strong airgames.

2: the leaves get in the way every time you hit them.

Makes for good CP material, as it stops projectile abusers.

3: The moving ledges doesn't exactly do wonders

What moving ledges? If you mean the leaves changing angle when you hit them, see above.

4: the water fools too often, I can't count how many times someone has died because a leaf got out of reach and they failed to realize that the water is fake.

Sucks to be them. If you've played the stage even ONCE you should know the water isn't swimmable, so anyone who falls for that deserves to lose a stock.

1: the platforms are too small, clearly aerial game is favored.

That's what makes it a good CP.

2: The stage design allows characters like Meta Knight or ZSS to stall for a very long time.

We have yet to be provided with legitimate proof of this.

3: Norfair's hazard is essentially take the hazard from previous stages (rising lava) and give it steroids, I have personally used the walls to KO earlier (and with Squirtle's dthrow, Retro, you should know what I'm talking about), the fountain is unpredictable, and it is a frenzy to try to get your opponent to get hit by the tsunami (yes, I know you can shield, but somebody can easily make you vulnerable one way or another. Not very fun.

The hazards are easy to avoid. I don't think I've ever managed to KO a half-decent opponent with them, and vice-versa.

 

[Charizard92]

Hanenbow is similar to New Pork City when I was talking about actual floor. There is a Floor, but it is more gap than floor. There are more places to fall through than stand safely.

OK, you got me.

When the bottom leaves move, the edges move, not to mention that the tip of the bottom are the only ledges, it is possible to go through the middle and still fail to hit land.

Well, tell that to my friend. I have to remind him of the water mechanic on water stages, and then I have to remind him that the water in Hanenbow isn't real water. It fools you into thinking that you'd be safe, and the well of common sense is drying up.

Yes

Yeah

This is my beef. I can't seem to get why you still cling to the "it's-avoidable" excuse.It doesn't matter that they are avoidable, it matters since it can hurt, real bad, not to mention that it is possible to link a throw into a lava wall into some more pain. It is really painful. Norfair, is not meant to be legal since it's no fair (pun)

 

[wWw Dazwa]

The water being fake on Hanenbow is not a valid reason AT ALL to ban the stage.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, so the water is one too many. People just hate it, I have no Idea why I'm still trying to ban it. CP if you like. Norfair, you are not getting away with this one.

 

[Serris]

OK, so the water is one too many. People just hate it, I have no Idea why I'm still trying to ban it. CP if you like. Norfair, you are not getting away with this one.

Unfortunately, you have no say in what people get away with. It's all up to the Back Room, in the end.

Norfair is largely considered to be a counterpick stage because of its layout. It's basic, but it's got hazards. The lava is considered to be a minimal hazard. The wave is very easily dodged. The geysers, while unpredictable, are still relatively easy to avoid. Walls and the varying level of lava can be an issue, but it's minor.

Norfair as counterpick? Probably a 70% chance.

 

[Xona]

We banned wobbling because it is inescapable on every stage and incredibly easy to perform. Even on the moving stages it could be used to rack up damage. IC chain grabs work on every stage, but are difficult to perform, therefore, we cannot ban stages based on the IC chaingrab.
Walls and walkoffs are banned because it is easier to ban a stage then a tactic, because we would have to have a TO at every match at a tourney, watching for a limit on chaingrabs, and even then, what would a correct punishment be? A stock loss? Loss of match?
All because of one technique. Stage-banning is much simpler and effective.

I was refering to the fact that you can realistcly avoid getting grabbed on moving stages such as Icicle Mountain. Wobbling doesn't work very well at all on moving stages because you can't realistically grab them if they any idea of what they're doing, you just banned it to save fd.
Also, the Ice Climbers have a CG in Brawl that isn't escapable by anyone but Ice Climbers. Excessive stage banning is wrong unless it's a specialized tournament scene. The Ice Climber's new CG is just as broken as wobbling, it's just harder to do, which is irrelevant.
We ban stage-humping and rising pound when used to stall. We could just ban 80% of stages instead, but we didn't, nor should we.

 

[Charizard92]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojeRtj9GyUY

This was posted in this thread some time ago, and it explains in better detail than What I can how Norfair and Hanenbow are horrible stages.

Norfair's problems are:
The design IS a problem, it is made of five platforms of roughly the same size, which means ground based characters have a hard time here (no escaping this one). Brinstar was OK since there was a large platform at the bottom and there was only one source of the acid: from below. Norfair essentially took this idea and gave it steroids. Not only do you have to worry about problems form below, but also from the sides and the background. While the Lava wave is easy to avoid, people will try to prevent you from shielding in a real competitive environment. Not very CP in my opinion.

 

[Oracle]

Hanenbow has several problems:
1: Hanenbow lacks an actual floorSo? It benefits characters who use more aerial combat
2: the leaves get in the way every time you hit them.That doesn't affect the match very much, other than potentially stopping projectiles.
3: The moving ledges doesn't exactly do wonders It's still possible to grab them often. The only problem that i see is someone with a linear recovery, like fox, trying to grab the ledges while the other character moves them by hitting them.
4: the water fools too often, I can't count how many times someone has died because a leaf got out of reach and they failed to realize that the water is fake.That doesn't matter, it's the player's fault for not knowing that.

Norfair, is my most hated stage, here's why:
1: the platforms are too small, clearly aerial game is favored.Hence the purpose of a counterpick.
2: The stage design allows characters like Meta Knight or ZSS to stall for a very long time.That would be the main issue.
3: Norfair's hazard is essentially take the hazard from previous stages (rising lava) and give it steroids, I have personally used the walls to KO earlier (and with Squirtle's dthrow, Retro, you should know what I'm talking about), the fountain is unpredictable, and it is a frenzy to try to get your opponent to get hit by the tsunami (yes, I know you can shield, but somebody can easily make you vulnerable one way or another. Not very fun.

And that's all I have to say about that.

I was refering to the fact that you can realistcly avoid getting grabbed on moving stages such as Icicle Mountain. Wobbling doesn't work very well at all on moving stages because you can't realistically grab them if they any idea of what they're doing, you just banned it to save fd.
Also, the Ice Climbers have a CG in Brawl that isn't escapable by anyone but Ice Climbers. Excessive stage banning is wrong unless it's a specialized tournament scene. The Ice Climber's new CG is just as broken as wobbling, it's just harder to do, which is irrelevant.
We ban stage-humping and rising pound when used to stall. We could just ban 80% of stages instead, but we didn't, nor should we.

You can "realistically" grab them on icicle mountain, and rack up the damage, unless the other player runs around to stall, which would probably be punished by a TO. Besides, banning all but 3 stages would eliminate all of the good CP's, the ice climbers' playability would basically die, and the metagame would devolve to the 2-3 characters that did well on the 3 stages. The IC's chain grab is a part of their metagame, just accept it and learn to space yourself.
STAGE HUMPING AND RISING POUND STALL WORK ALMOST EVERYWHERE!! DIDN'T I JUST EXPLAIN THAT?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojeRtj9GyUY

This was posted in this thread some time ago, and it explains in better detail than What I can how Norfair and Hanenbow are horrible stages.

Norfair's problems are:
The design IS a problem, it is made of five platforms of roughly the same size, which means ground based characters have a hard time here (no escaping this one). Brinstar was OK since there was a large platform at the bottom and there was only one source of the acid: from below. Norfair essentially took this idea and gave it steroids. Not only do you have to worry about problems form below, but also from the sides and the background. While the Lava wave is easy to avoid, people will try to prevent you from shielding in a real competitive environment. Not very CP in my opinion.

most of these only make it a cp more

 

[AlexX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojeRtj9GyUY

This was posted in this thread some time ago, and it explains in better detail than What I can how Norfair and Hanenbow are horrible stages.

Most of the things described in that video are reasons to CP the stage, not to mention wrong on some parts (such as where they claim you have to get in the capsule in order to avoid dying).

The design IS a problem, it is made of five platforms of roughly the same size, which means ground based characters have a hard time here (no escaping this one).

Where have we been trying to escape that? That's the WHOLE REASON we're trying to make it a CP: benefit those with strong airgames and tether recoveries.

Brinstar was OK since there was a large platform at the bottom and there was only one source of the acid: from below. Norfair essentially took this idea and gave it steroids. Not only do you have to worry about problems form below, but also from the sides and the background. While the Lava wave is easy to avoid[...]

So you admit the lava is avoidable.

[...]people will try to prevent you from shielding in a real competitive environment.

You can't force someone to not shield without putting yourself at risk, so forcing someone to be hit by the lava isn't a reliable strategy. If you rely on the lava for damage and KOs, you're going to lose.