Official Stage Legality Discussion

[MysticKenji]

But the thing is, all those things save the windmill were in Melee as well, yet there it was a starter stage.

And in Melee the wall didn't reward you as much for abusing it.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

And in Melee the wall didn't reward you as much for abusing it.

You can only abuse it if you camp there so play keep away - especially if you have a projectile

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

List is out http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

and I'd like a few people to note that they are not called neutrals so stop calling them that and using them as bases for arguments.

edit: or you can look at the post under this one.

This is other topic talks about the reasoning behind these choices though and how close the in between stages where to being starters, counter picks, or banned. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187736

 

[deepseadiva]

Well that was sooner than expected. Here's the official list:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Counter/Banned
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

Compare it to our final list:

Singles:
Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Lylat Cruise Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl Recommended: Random Starter

Brinstar Recommended:Counterpick
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick
Green GreensRecommended: Counterpick
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
Onett Recommended: Counterpick
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Counterpick
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island Melee Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick

Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned
Norfair Recommended: Banned
75 m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Banned
Corneria Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Banned
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Banned
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned
Summit Recommended: Banned
Temple Recommended: Banned
WarioWare, Inc. Recommended: Banned

I'll just take this opportunity to make a smug face to all the Jungle Japes disbelievers.
Though Corneria, Hanenbow, and Mario Circuit have surprising placement.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Halberd was actually closer to a random starter than a counter pick that surprised me to.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187736 That thread has has the votes and the stages that where left in between have some pretty interesting results

 

[Snail]

Aw, they banned SMI. I love that stage... Oh well, I'm glad they got rid of Hanenbow too.

They're giving us the choice to cp or ban certain stages. Since most TO's will be conservative... I guess it's okay o_o Though I'd rather seen a definite ban on Skyworld and Port Town.

 

[AlexX]

Aw, they got rid of Hanenbow... Looks like I'm going to have to find another favorite counterpick stage whenever I'm Ike.

Glad Norfair is a CP, though. That's going to be an ideal CP when I'm playing Olimar.

 

[Charizard92]

We got an official list now? I'll go edit my thread.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

thats...not an official list,it it were, a BRoomer would post it.

 

[Snail]

thats...not an official list,it it were, a BRoomer would post it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

Read moar.

 

[cjrocker]

thats...not an official list,it it were, a BRoomer would post it.

Really now? Everyone, including BRoomers, are confirming the list as official. There's not much reason to deny it.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

Read moar.

i though they would post the stage list in a sticky in stage discussion,ha

so i guess stage discussion is pretty much done with then

 

[Snail]

i though they would post the stage list in a sticky in stage discussion,ha

so i guess stage discussion is pretty much done with then

Yep ^^ We had a good time, guys.

 

[Charizard92]

Amasing, I won and lost at the same time when it came to PS1 and Norfair. If you recall, When I started posting here, I was a major advocate of PS1 being neutral, and Norfair being banned. Later, I was an advocate for Borderlining PS1 but Norfair stayed. I gave up on PS1 but not on Norfair. Surprise, PS1 is Borderline (YAY!) and Norfair is legal (what the ****), so I won and lost at the same time, weird isn't it?

 

[Serris]

I figured Hanenbow would be legal in doubles. Lylat Cruise's position at borderline starter surprises me.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Lylat Cruise's position at borderline starter surprises me.

In what way? I personally don't have any gripes with the stage, but a lot of people complain about the tilting sides messing up recoveries (spacies for example.)
I'd probably agree on it's placing.

 

[Serris]

In what way? I personally don't have any gripes with the stage, but a lot of people complain about the tilting sides messing up recoveries (spacies for example.)
I'd probably agree on it's placing.

Lylat Cruise's edges aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. And the tilting isn't too significant, but I can see why people would have problems with it.

The only thing I've really encountered with the stage is the problem with re-timing jumps because of the tilting. But, even then, not too bad.

If I ever ran a tournament, I'd put this on Starter.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think most people will since the stage strike system requires an odd number. Plus people could always strike that stage when they are picking there starter.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

How do Lylat Cruises' stages mess up the Fox gang's recoveries? (honest question not looking to be flamed/not flaming)

 

[Mic_128]

Something about how you could do say, forward b and the stage tilts away or something. I never really got that argument, but that's just me.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Ah i see.. well it doesn't really tilt all that much does it? Wolf's forward B doesn't have any problem with it slightly (barely) tilting, and the other two spacies can use the up special to guide where they go, same for Wolf, so I don't really see the problem..

 

[zeldanerd143]

jungle beat stage defintly out

 

[Overswarm]

The stage discussion really isn't over guys, just FYI. We're going to come back to this over time, and basically once a year we're going to do a revamp of the rule list. More importantly, we will be editing the list if need be. That means if someone finds a way to totally break a certain stage or we get new information, we may end up doing surgery on the list to get rid of one. We may also add a stage in the future, but that it is highly unlikely.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

wait is the official list out??

 

[jyuuberu]

The stage logic: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187736

Entire ruleset: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

 

[cjrocker]

wait is the official list out??

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187736
Yes.

 

[Skyflyer]

Brinstar and Norfair should be banned.

 

[Guilhe]

The stage discussion really isn't over guys, just FYI. We're going to come back to this over time, and basically once a year we're going to do a revamp of the rule list. More importantly, we will be editing the list if need be. That means if someone finds a way to totally break a certain stage or we get new information, we may end up doing surgery on the list to get rid of one. We may also add a stage in the future, but that it is highly unlikely.

That’s sad Overswarm… I’ve had high hopes for Rumble Falls being legalized as a counterpick. The scrolling speed, even when quickened, is fine in my opinion. If it were slower, major hazards like the spikes and walk-off sections would be active for too long making this stage much more dangerous at competitive play.

 

[Overswarm]

That’s sad Overswarm… I’ve had high hopes for Rumble Falls being legalized as a counterpick. The scrolling speed, even when quickened, is fine in my opinion. If it were slower, major hazards like the spikes and walk-off sections would be active for too long making this stage much more dangerous at competitive play.

I personally argued for it being a counterpick as well, but the majority o the SBR thought otherwise.

 

[Charizard92]

Overswarm, I have a question on the wireless thing. Do they apply to gamecube wireless controllers, wiimotes & classics, or a combination of the above?

 

[Overswarm]

Does what apply?

 

[Charizard92]

Well that was fast. OK, on the notes, you said that wireless controllers should be discouraged (for reasons you should know), but not outright banned. Does this apply to the Wii controlers (Wiimote, nunchuk [I just call it the nunchuk controller because it's faster than Wiimote+nunchuk] and classic controllers), the wireless gamecube controller, or both?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

in a way,it does apply because its wireless.but with the wiimotes its encoruaged for players to take out their batteries to save power and keep out interference.

 

[Charizard92]

Thank you, so Wiimotes are partially discouraged, but there are systems in place to keep them in check.

 

[deepseadiva]

The stage discussion really isn't over guys, just FYI. We're going to come back to this over time, and basically once a year we're going to do a revamp of the rule list. More importantly, we will be editing the list if need be. That means if someone finds a way to totally break a certain stage or we get new information, we may end up doing surgery on the list to get rid of one. We may also add a stage in the future, but that it is highly unlikely.

Ah, so this is how this works. Good to know these aren't in stone...
I do not enjoy practicing on Port Town Aero Drive and Mario Circuit.

 

[AlexX]

I do not enjoy practicing on Port Town Aero Drive and Mario Circuit.

Port Town I can understand, but the cars aren't any trouble at all in Mario Circut.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Something about how you could do say, forward b and the stage tilts away or something. I never really got that argument, but that's just me.

Brawl's edge-sweetspotting is way too easy for that to affect anybody.

 

[deepseadiva]

Port Town I can understand, but the cars aren't any trouble at all in Mario Circut.

Of course they're not, but those walk-offs are probably the easiest to take advantage of in the entire game. I'm dumbfounded as to why they're on the "kinda counterpick" list. Thankfully most tournaments will ban it easy.

 

[R4ZE]

every stage in the game except FD and BF have some type of random occurance or fluctuation that lean the game somewhat towards luck rather than skill.

For example in yoshi's island the random platform pop ups, and the shy guys delaying what would have been killing blows.

Lylat and Smashville arent too bad as they r just somthing in a cycle that either player can clearly see. But i think if nothing else, yoshi's story/island/w.e should be atleast moved to a counter pick stage.

 

[Xona]

I was hoping for Big Blue, Rumble Falls, and Hanenbow to be legalized, as they are not broken. Unfortunately, the majority of the SBR didn't think that they should be. Also, on the Melee boards, I read a solid unban arguement for Temple, believe it or not. (the arguement only applies to teams, though.)

Big Blue: "you're fighting the stage as much, if not more than your opponent", I disagree with that, as I think that you're only fighting the stage if you're both unfamiliar to the stage and not good at adapting. I almost never fight the stage, although I do make my opponent fight it a lot, that's by spiking. The only legit reason I can see is that you can't tech a Footstool-jump. As for low-damage kills banning stages, should we ban edge-hogging, edge-gaurding or spikes, Ike's F-smash? I don't think so, I also believe in trying to save a stage and not just going out and banning it. What's ban-worthy about Big Blue besides "distracting from gameplay" or "low-damage kills"? Neither of those are true ban-reasons in my oppinion.

Rumble Falls: "you're fighting the stage as much, if not more than your opponent", again, I don't find that a reasonable ban-arguement, as a little stage familiarity fixes that, in Melee should we ban Pokefloats? What about Rainbow Cruise? In my oppinion fd is a lot more broken than any of these, yet it made Starter and both Big Blue and Rumble Falls made ban (although I'll just strike it and use it as my global ban instead of crying out for it's ban). Another thing, Rumble Falls is not Icicle Mountain, and even if it was, it wouldn't be that bad.

Hanenbow: "circle", I would agree if you couldn't jump up through every last one of the platforms, even 75m might not be that much of a problem. I'd unban Hanenbow in both singles and teams, and I'd test 75m some more (probably still banned in singles, not teams).

Also, what about Teams, Hanenbow is kind of unbanned in teams, but now Temple should be questioned in teams, yes I said Temple. This only applies to teams, as Temple's circle can be cut-off with good teamwork and skill. It won't work in singles. Even a team of Bowser and Ganondorf could beat 2 Sonics. Although I don't think it's very likely because Sonic probably owns both Bowser and Ganondorf everywhere (unless Gimpyfish is the Bowser). (I give credit to SOFT for the unban arguement of Temple, it's in this thread)

Also now that there's an official list, the legality of Custom Stages should come into question as legit CP's. If they aren't broken, Why not? But if they are, then there's a problem. We obviously can't have the SBR screen every one of them, that would take way too long. I'd like to see the SBR release a set of guidelines for custom stages, not to allow them outright, as otherwise I could easily pick Sonic and make a clone of Temple. Another problem is stage-familiarity, the limited-ness of Stage Builder kind of helps, but I'd say that the other player should be given some time to get familiar with the stage. Obviously not that much time, that could take too long. If the in-game customs were up for debate, only the Sample named "hole" could make the cut as far as I know. "Bath" has too much Wall-infinite-emphasis and only one tiny KO-zone out the bottom. The only other KO option is out the top. "Maze" has a circle, so in Singles, that's obvious, in Teams, the argument would be Wall-infinites and circle.

I'm still working on the SSBB Banned Stages Tournament Ruleset, it's not ready for a "beta-post".