Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Shadow Light Master]

I was hoping for Big Blue, Rumble Falls, and Hanenbow to be legalized, as they are not broken. Unfortunately, the majority of the SBR didn't think that they should be. Also, on the Melee boards, I read a solid unban arguement for Temple, believe it or not. (the arguement only applies to teams, though.)

OK...

]Big Blue: "you're fighting the stage as much, if not more than your opponent", I disagree with that, as I think that you're only fighting the stage if you're both unfamiliar to the stage and not good at adapting. I almost never fight the stage, although I do make my opponent fight it a lot, that's by spiking. The only legit reason I can see is that you can't tech a Footstool-jump. As for low-damage kills banning stages, should we ban edge-hogging, edge-gaurding or spikes, Ike's F-smash? I don't think so, I also believe in trying to save a stage and not just going out and banning it. What's ban-worthy about Big Blue besides "distracting from gameplay" or "low-damage kills"? Neither of those are true ban-reasons in my oppinion.

There's a solid difference between low-damage kills because you can't recover once spiked (hell, you don't even really need to be spiked, a well-timed throw will suffice) and edge-hogging etc. Those things require greater skill to be preformed, and can be countered. Furthermore, they are not broken. If my opponent has 20%, and I use Pikachu to do a backthrow, making them bounce off the underside of an overhead car and die, that's broken. Your "adapting" argument is also flawed because the stage changes with nearly no warning. It's equivalent almost to the "adapt to items" argument.

Rumble Falls: "you're fighting the stage as much, if not more than your opponent", again, I don't find that a reasonable ban-arguement, as a little stage familiarity fixes that, in Melee should we ban Pokefloats? What about Rainbow Cruise? In my oppinion fd is a lot more broken than any of these, yet it made Starter and both Big Blue and Rumble Falls made ban (although I'll just strike it and use it as my global ban instead of crying out for it's ban). Another thing, Rumble Falls is not Icicle Mountain, and even if it was, it wouldn't be that bad.

The problem with Rumble Falls is the random "SPEED UP!"s and things like the stupid spiked which KO at low percents. Stuff like that is an unfair advantage, and also it's more fast paced than PokeFloats. Not to mention PokeFloats doesn't have any major obstructions, but Rumble Falls has a constant nuinsance in its ceiling. Icicle Mountain was a similar problem, and as such was banned. And Final Destination is nowhere near Rumble Falls level. Despite leaning heavily towards projectile users, it is nowhere near broken.

Hanenbow: "circle", I would agree if you couldn't jump up through every last one of the platforms, even 75m might not be that much of a problem. I'd unban Hanenbow in both singles and teams, and I'd test 75m some more (probably still banned in singles, not teams).

I'm sorry, but the fact that you said that 75m might not be a problem almost makes me want to disregard your post. You obviously have no idea how problematic the circle is. Ever tried to play Ganondorf VS Falco on Hanenbow? Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[Overswarm]

You guys realize you don't have to use our list verbatim, right? =P

Our list is basically a set of rules that can easily be tilted towards more liberal or more conservative. With the "starter/counter" and "counter/banned" lists, you can easily pick out the stages that have justifiable reasons to move to either category and create the tournament as you see fit.

If you want to add custom stages... go for it. Just know that it isn't approved by us or anyone else, so it is YOUR responsibility to make it fair.

 

[SLAYERCoLdKiLr]

Is Luigis Mansion Banned Yet

 

[fkacyan]

You guys realize you don't have to use our list verbatim, right? =P

Our list is basically a set of rules that can easily be tilted towards more liberal or more conservative. With the "starter/counter" and "counter/banned" lists, you can easily pick out the stages that have justifiable reasons to move to either category and create the tournament as you see fit.

If you want to add custom stages... go for it. Just know that it isn't approved by us or anyone else, so it is YOUR responsibility to make it fair.

And what if we take out stages that are set in one list? Are we banished to the shadow realm for that?

 

[fkacyan]

Brawl's edge-sweetspotting is way too easy for that to affect anybody.

Oh dear lord, sir, no. I'll get to recording replays of my friend's Falco's upB literally humping the edge and still not grabbing it.

 

[Overswarm]

This is meant to help TOs, not enforce our will. If you do something against this list, just know you are doing something against this list. That's about it.

This is a good stage list; it'll help new TOs greatly. If a more experienced TO says "well I believe..." and wants to change something, he can. He just does so knowing that it might be against the grain.

 

[fkacyan]

This is meant to help TOs, not enforce our will. If you do something against this list, just know you are doing something against this list. That's about it.

This is a good stage list; it'll help new TOs greatly. If a more experienced TO says "well I believe..." and wants to change something, he can. He just does so knowing that it might be against the grain.

K, thanks for the info.

I'm going to try and get some new videos up for a few of the stages I believe shouldn't be legal... I'll work on bothering my friends to help so I actually have people who can DI.

 

[AlexX]

Ever tried to play Ganondorf VS Falco on Hanenbow? Yeah, that's what I thought.

I've played Ike vs fast people at Hanenbow. There's really only 3 places they can be at any time, and the fact they're on one means they only have two they can head to. If you're heading towards them from one of the remaining two, you have a good chance of catching them before they reach their destination (or at least it is from my experiences... obviously it's not the best evidence around, but it's something).

 

[x After Dawn x]

Oh dear lord, sir, no. I'll get to recording replays of my friend's Falco's upB literally humping the edge and still not grabbing it.

I was talking about side B, not up B. But once you put it that way, even if you get stuck under the stage and can't grab the edge, it's the player's fault for going under there anyway.

The stage list is based on the assumptions that the person playing the stage knows the quirks and patterns of the stage and that they meet a minimum skill level needed to play in proper tournaments. If they don't, then the problem lies in the player, not the stage.

 

[fkacyan]

I was talking about side B, not up B. But once you put it that way, even if you get stuck under the stage and can't grab the edge, it's the player's fault for going under there anyway.

The stage list is based on the assumptions that the person playing the stage knows the quirks and patterns of the stage and that they meet a minimum skill level needed to play in proper tournaments. If they don't, then the problem lies in the player, not the stage.

... No.

I mean, Falco's upB is pressing against the side of the edge, and not grabbing it, i.e. conditions under which he should be able to grab it.

 

[x After Dawn x]

... No.

I mean, Falco's upB is pressing against the side of the edge, and not grabbing it, i.e. conditions under which he should be able to grab it.

It auto-sweetspots at an edge...unless you're talking about that glitch where you sometimes go to grab an edge and it doesn't, but gives you your jumps back? If you're talking about that, then that's a poor reason because it rarely happens and if it does, you get your jumps back to grab the edge again.

 

[Overswarm]

It auto-sweetspots at an edge...unless you're talking about that glitch where you sometimes go to grab an edge and it doesn't, but gives you your jumps back? If you're talking about that, then that's a poor reason because it rarely happens and if it does, you get your jumps back to grab the edge again.

No, it really doesn't auto-sweet spot like you say it does. You can literally be hugging hte edge and it won't grab until the end of the animation or you are right on top of the ledge. Just something to do with his up+b.

 

[fkacyan]

No, it really doesn't auto-sweet spot like you say it does. You can literally be hugging hte edge and it won't grab until the end of the animation or you are right on top of the ledge. Just something to do with his up+b.

Ah, but if the stage doesn't like you, you won't grab it even at the end of the animation.

 

[MysticKenji]

This thing affects Fox, too...but not Wolf for some reason o_O

(at least as far as I can tell)

 

[x After Dawn x]

No, it really doesn't auto-sweet spot like you say it does. You can literally be hugging hte edge and it won't grab until the end of the animation or you are right on top of the ledge. Just something to do with his up+b.

It auto-sweetspots, it just doesn't have a big sweetspot range while the animation is in effect, if that's what you mean.

 

[megamanexev3]

I've got a question, are stages like Eldin, that stage in Melee that looks like Super Mario World (With the spinning blocks) and Shadow Moses Island banned? Because people can can chain grab **** there.

 

[fkacyan]

I've got a question, are stages like Eldin, that stage in Melee that looks like Super Mario World (With the spinning blocks) and Shadow Moses Island banned? Because people can can chain grab **** there.

You could check the SBR Stage List linked in the announcements on every forum.

... Just an idea.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Any stage with walk-offs should be banned, megaman. Most characters can camp on the edges and stall, or they can chaingrab others off of them, or Diddy can banana lock them off of it.

 

[Mic_128]

Except that the SBR took that into consideration. To be honest the general consensus is, if it's that broken, win some tournaments with it, win some funds and abuse it so it becomes noticeable that it needs looking at, because the stages that do have walkoffs that are legal are fine.

Also, added the list of stages to page 1.

 

[Mmac]

I don't think Yoshi's Island Melee was banned because nobody can Chaingrab up the hill for a easy kill, or it's extremely hard to do

Distant Planet's Pellets makes it so that Chaingrabbers have a harder time camping and forcing people to fight on the slant, plus the Rain can make it unusable most of the time.

The only one I could see being a problem is Green Hill Zone, which I don't know how it didn't make the Counterpick/Banned section in the firstplace

 

[AlexX]

I don't think Yoshi's Island Melee was banned because nobody can Chaingrab up the hill for a easy kill, or it's extremely hard to do

Actually, I believe it was banned because characters like Fox could upsmash opponents to death at 40% there. The walk-off was a contributing factor, but not the main reason.

I'm going to try and get some new videos up for a few of the stages I believe shouldn't be legal... I'll work on bothering my friends to help so I actually have people who can DI.

In the interest of keeping this topic alive, which stages do you think shouldn't be legal despite the SBR's opinions?

 

[Charizard92]

really, since distaste was eliminated as a factor, I have absolutely nothing to say here. Oh, and if you are wondering why walk offs are a problem, two reasons:

A: chaingrabbing: Back in Melee, the only character who can use a walk off as a tool for a zero to death combo was Fox, and not very well. In Brawl, Chaingrabbing is the new waveshining (or whatever it is called), and multiple character do have a chaingrab (the most prominent is Dedede), which is much easier to perform.

B: Easier KO potential: It is bad enough when one character can 0 to death with something, but when all can use it as a cheap way to kill someone, that can't stand. Even in Melee (I think, I'm not a hard core Melee fan) it was much easier to throw someone into the boundary than hit them over an open chasm. Brawl is the same. It takes less time, energy, and damage dealt to KO someone with a walk off, which I noticed from the start.

 

[Mic_128]

A: chaingrabbing: Back in Melee, the only character who can use a walk off as a tool for a zero to death combo was Fox, and not very well.

If a Fox could waveshine, he could 0-kill anyone on any walkoff. In Brawl more can chaingrab, but only about half, and less can be done infinitively.

B: Easier KO potential: It is bad enough when one character can 0 to death with something, but when all can use it as a cheap way to kill someone, that can't stand. Even in Melee (I think, I'm not a hard core Melee fan) it was much easier to throw someone into the boundary than hit them over an open chasm. Brawl is the same. It takes less time, energy, and damage dealt to KO someone with a walk off, which I noticed from the start.

If someone camps the edge, it's a risk that you could jump and knock them off the edge too. Like OS said earlier, it's a high risk high reward gamble, and one that is not used at high levels of play.

 

[Charizard92]

Cheap KO techniques, even if they aren't used in high level play, still serve as a problem.

 

[Mic_128]

Even if that problem never occurs?

Race car drivers could drive across the middle of the racetrack. It could be a probllem, but is never seen in high levels of play.

Just learn to adapt and deal with it on the odd chance you run into it.

 

[Charizard92]

Remember Port Town. There were two arguments that ultimately determined it's legality.
1: despite how powerful the cars are, they are easy to avoid
2: despite how easy to avoid it is, they are still overpowered.

Same thing. It may never occur in a match (if at all), but the risk is there. Banworthy I doubt, but definitely not legal.

 

[Mic_128]

Remember Port Town. There were two arguments that ultimately determined it's legality.
1: despite how powerful the cars are, they are easy to avoid
2: despite how easy to avoid it is, they are still overpowered.

Except that

1. they aren't easy to avoid. they come from nowhere and don't have any clearly defined areas where they can and can't come from.

2. It covers the entire stage, whereas walkoffs are only at a very small part of the stages, and if someone wants to be stupidly risky and do it, then go for it.

If it's broken, abuse it and win tournaments with it and show us unavoidable proof they're broken.

 

[Skywalker]

In response to Mic (I can't quote)

Do refs monitor matches for foul play or abuse at tourneys? Assuming there are dedicated refs, it's virtually impossible to game the "system" like that.

Don't do research or demonstrations at tournaments... it just ruins the competitive environment.

(No, I don't professionally smash)

 

[Mic_128]

Do refs monitor matches for foul play or abuse at tourneys? Assuming there are dedicated refs, it's virtually impossible to game the "system" like that.

I'm not sure what you mean here. You mean do they have a ref there to prevent walkoff abuse? There shouldn't be, because it's a legal move. My point is, that if walkoffs are such a broken element, proove they are broken. Not by beating someone in one friendly match, because that doesn't proove anything.
If walkoffs are so horrible, go out and show us how broken they are by winning a tournament by doing so.

Don't do research or demonstrations at tournaments... it just ruins the competitive environment.

If someone thinks something should be banned because it's abusable and ruins the competitive environment, when it has never actually happened, unless they actually do it and show that yes, it is indeed horrible and should be banned, there is nothing to base it on.

It's like me claiming that wearing rubber boots in a running race is a cheap and unfair tactic and should be banned, despite no one ever winning races when wearing rubber boots.

 

[Charizard92]

Except that

1. they aren't easy to avoid. they come from nowhere and don't have any clearly defined areas where they can and can't come from.

2. It covers the entire stage, whereas walkoffs are only at a very small part of the stages, and if someone wants to be stupidly risky and do it, then go for it.

If it's broken, abuse it and win tournaments with it and show us unavoidable proof they're broken.

Well, that was the argument among those who were for Counterpicking the stage. I wasn't, so this wasn't my thinking.

Murphy's law! Remember Murphy's law. (did I spell it correctly? Basically, anything that can happen will).

 

[fkacyan]

Well, that was the argument among those who were for Counterpicking the stage. I wasn't, so this wasn't my thinking.

Murphy's law! Remember Murphy's law. (did I spell it correctly? Basically, anything that can happen will).

By Murphy's Law, we should ban every stage because people can infinite stall on them!

Yeah, that's not evidence to ban something. Concrete proof > Theory.

 

[Charizard92]

Fine! I'll stop now. Now will ya stop nagging me after every post I post?

 

[fkacyan]

Fine! I'll stop now. Now will ya stop nagging me after every post I post?

I'm sorry we felt the need to actually debate what you were saying so as to come to a better overall understanding. I'll make sure I want to remain ignorant next time.

 

[Charizard92]

OK... well, thanks for that (tiny voice). I got a bit annoyed with this, that's all. Guess I have some leftover anger from the Norfair debate (Why I need it I don't know, Anger isn't a good weapon).

 

[The Milk Monster]

Basically, everything Mic said in his posts make sense.
Ref's usually don't monitor for things like that if they monitor at all, they monitor for things such as stalling, in Melee's case, illegal glitches and such, and things of that nature.

Walk off's, are a cheap move no doubt, and doing it to win a whole tournament would be a pretty low blow, but like Mic said, you'd need solid proof to prove it shouldn't be allowed. Winning friendlies with it will just rise *****ing amongst friends, but doing it in a tourney to win will shine some light on the situation and maybe make it illegal, it'd probably have to be a reoccuring issue.

 

[The Milk Monster]

And I just noticed what Thio was saying.
Every stage can have someone who can infinate on them, some stages are more abundant in those characters, so that would bump them down on the legality list.

For instance, Battlefield and Final D, one example, it's not nessicarily an infinate, but DK can cargo grab you, and if you don't break out of the throw, he'll jump off, turn around, throw you against the side, instant spike, and if you recover, there comes a toadstool, but those courses are still random.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, lets go to a course like Corneria. There are a good handful of characters who can do some sort of infinite against the back wing, and that was what kicked it down to Banned, If I remember correctly.

Some courses speak for themselves on the ban list, some are open for debate for their own reasons.

 

[BrawlerAidan]

Can anyone give me tell me?
When i do The great maze or what ever it is, i complete it and once iv done it, it still flashes at the map but all the stages iv done have a flag on it.

 

[BrawlerHarrison]

Look who it is XDD

Anyway, when a level has a flag over it, it means not all of the places and stuff have been searched, or when you collect that weird glowing face thing.
When its flashing it means you have done it fully.

 

[fkacyan]

This is not single player discussion.

 

[AlexX]

On the opposite end of the spectrum, lets go to a course like Corneria. There are a good handful of characters who can do some sort of infinite against the back wing, and that was what kicked it down to Banned, If I remember correctly.

Actually, Corneria appears to be a clear counterpick on the official list under the idea that if someone were to attempt to camp near the wing to try and knock the opponent against the wall, they place themselves dangerously close to the blast zone if the opponent manages to smack them upon approach.