[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Pieman0920]

I don't quite feel that poor sales preformance can close the book on a characters' chances due to the fact that Smash acts as a promotional tool very well. For instance, it worked wonders for Fire Emblem.

And Chrono, while I can easily guess what your reasons for most of those character cuts, I don't get why you put Lucas in there. Also I'd like to say that its unlikely that the majority of those guys got cut unless a real revamp happened.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

A Smash 4 would need a classic char. Mike jones, Takamaru, Balloon fighter. Someone nice and retro.

Ummm no...

 

[Shorts]

I think that the SSB series is at a point where they have to decide to either:

Go for numbers, trying to hit the 50-55 mark of charcters. This COULD work I think. If they were to focus on gameplay and balance. The problem with that is we may see less interesting game modes, and possibly less inovation in the series. It's pretty obvious that makking even a moderately balanced roster with 50 characters would be hard. So, they would HAVE to put a lot of focus and time into that. If they didn't and made another subspace mistake then we may have the most imbalanced roster ever. All in all, a big roster and good balance with possibly less innovations and new modes or trophies from scratch could be a decent game. But it could, and I think more likely, backfire and we could have Sakurai giving himself inadequate time to add a big roster and a big Single player mode. Which could leave us with a truely less then satisfactory game.

Going for Refinement. Keeping the roster around 40-45 could give a lot of time for balance, and some new modes. The problem is that we could see either a lot of cuts, or few newcomers. Both are going to be looked at as a bad thing. Just expect that from fans. But I think if they keep a smaller roster they could make a really exceptional game focused on multiplayer, but have a lot of GOOD collectables and FUN Single Player/other modes.

I suppose all of this really depends on if Sakurai takes up the project. I would NOT be all that suprised to see another creator take over. It seems that Sakurai is a tad tired of the series. That being said, if Miyamoto had his choice on the leader of the project, we may get someone more focused on the Multiplayer aspect. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. So really, before we can make truely adequate predictions, we need to know who is in charge.

I wouldn't mind seeing someone else take over. I think a fresh pair of eyes would do some good. You don't think Miyamoto is too busy do you?

Ummm no...

R.o.b. Game&Watch. Ice Climbers. Pit. It definitely could happen. And probably will happen.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I think that the SSB series is at a point where they have to decide to either:

Go for numbers, trying to hit the 50-55 mark of characters....

Going for Refinement....

I suppose all of this really depends on if Sakurai takes up the project. I wouldn't mind seeing someone else take over. I think a fresh pair of eyes would do some good. You don't think Miyamoto is too busy do you?

The next SSB, if Sakurai does develop it, will definitely go for refinement. Sakurai even said himself that he wants to avoid doing things such as simply "adding more characters to the roster" and things that basically "fatten up" the game. He'd probably spend more time on new game modes and bringing a new feel to the game than he would on amount of characters. I wouldn't expect much more than 45 characters, with more newcomers than cuts, if any cuts at all.

This brings up a good question: what do you guys think are the chances of Sakurai taking up the development of SSB4? Like Shortie said, Sakurai seems tired of the series, and he is further annoyed that people always expect sequels... basically, he's not fond of grinding out sequel after sequel. But at the same time, the main reason he gave in to the offer of taking up the development of Brawl was because he didn't want to see another developer take over his series. He was kind of pressured into taking it, and the only way I see him once again working on a Smash project is if he is pressured by a Nintendo executive to do so.

I don't know if I want to see him take it up, but at the same time I don't think I want him to hand it over. I hate it when new developers take up my favorite game series, because you never know what to expect. Sure, Brawl wasn't as satisfying as Melee (to me at least), but it didn't absolutely suck either. Sticking with Sakurai just feels safer, even if his priorities are a little screwed up. Who knows what could happen to the series if someone else takes over? It could turn out for the better, but it could also utterly ruin the series as we know it.

 

[Starphoenix]

See, to me, I cannot see how Smash Bros could really be ruined by another director at the helm? Don't get me wrong, there would be changes as far as priorities dictate. But Nintendo would never let it stray to far from the substance of what makes the game so popular. After all, even if Sakurai doesn't direct it Miyamoto will still be a part of the development team. Which isn't even to say Sakurai wouldn't have a hand in the development at that. Just not as director.

 

[Shorts]

See, to me, I cannot see how Smash Bros could really be ruined by another director at the helm? Don't get me wrong, there would be changes as far as priorities dictate. But Nintendo would never let it stray to far from the substance of what makes the game so popular. After all, even if Sakurai doesn't direct it Miyamoto will still be a part of the development team. Which isn't even to say Sakurai wouldn't have a hand in the development at that. Just not as director.

I agree with this. I feel like a new director could really bring a new light to the series. Besides, I'm sure Sakurai will have his hands in it in some way. And I like the idea of Miyamoto staying on board for the fourth project. He really seems like someone who could bring the game back from Brawl. Brawl is fun. This is true. But like we have discussed on here for the past week or so, Hidden Characters, SSE, lack of innovation in some areas, and general balance. With the reports coming out on Project Cafe, I can see a more competitive SSB4 being made. Miyamoto could be of great benefit to Smash4. There is a reason why he is put in charge of watching over/producing some of Nintendo's most cherished series.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Honestly, I don't see Sakurai being involved with Smash 4Ever (that's all I'll refer to it as) considering he was practically begged to make Brawl in the first place. After making Melee, he didn't even want to make Brawl. I doubt he'd make a fourth one, especially when now his studio is apparently focused solely on Kid Icarus.

With that said, if the rumors are correct and SSB4 will be around, maybe in playable, during E3 this year, it's likely that the game would have had to have started development in 2008-2009, which would place it during the development time of Kid Icarus: Uprising, so it makes no sense that Sakurai would be working on both.

Thus, I'm pretty sure that there will be a new developer, if this is the case. I would actually like that, to be honest. The Smash formula really isn't hard to screw up - it's just how the new developer looks at and decides what needs to be and what doesn't need to be. I'm sure any developed besides Sakurai, for example, would agree that tripping is ******** and needs to be removed, for example.

Nintendo will most likely give it to a first party developer, like:

-Retro Studios
-Intelligent Systems
-HAL Laboratory (I'm pretty sure Sakuraio has left it as much as Iwata has, so I don't know about this)
-One of the EAD groups (Comprehensive, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Tokyo)
-Nintendo SPD, NSD, STC, or SDD

I doubt anyone else would get it if Sora doesn't somehow maintain both Kid Icarus and Smash at the same time.

Also also, to level this out, King K. Rool and Ridley for Smash 4Ever playable characters!

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Yeah, I guess there really isn't much to worry about as long as Sakurai is still involved somehow, and Miyamoto being involved is always a plus too. It doesn't really matter to me who lead the development any more, as long as Sakurai has a hand... but if Sakurai does lead development, I truly hope he leaves behind some of his policies that are less desired by fans.

How about some activity in here? A new discussion seems to be in order. All of these rumors about SSB4 being revealed at this upcoming E3 (although I am still very skeptical of these rumors) has made me remember the pre-Brawl days, when everyone was rooting for their favorite characters and getting in bloody debates and posting rosters and the like. Aah, those were the days...

Who wants to post their "rosters?" Just for old times sake--they don't necessarily have to be "likely" as long as they're not utterly ridiculous (i.e. 70 characters, including anime characters, movie stars, mastur cheef, etc.). Here, I'll start:



MARIO
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Toad
Bowser
Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario

DONKEY KONG
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong/Dixie Kong
King K. Rool

LEGEND OF ZELDA
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Toon Zelda/Tetra

METROID
Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Ridley

YOSHI
Yoshi

KIRBY
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

STARFOX
Fox
Falco
Krystal
Wolf

POKEMON
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
Mewtwo
Zoroark

F-ZERO
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh

MOTHER/EARTHBOUND
Ness
Lucas

FIRE EMBLEM
Marth
Roy
Ike

WARIOWARE
Wario

PIKMIN
Olimar

NEW SERIES
Isaac
Ray Mk. III

RETRO SERIES
Ice Climbers
Pit
Balloon Fighter
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.
Little Mac

THIRD PARTY SERIES
Snake
Sonic
Megaman





So... there are 49 total slots on this roster. I was going for about 13 newcomer slots with this, considering that is around what we got for Melee and Brawl. Counting transformations, there are 16 newcomers. The only veteran that I cut was Lucario. The Yoshi series, Kirby Series, MOTHER series, WarioWare series, and Pikmin series did not recieve any additional characters. Although the Mario series has the most slots (6), The Mario series, Zelda series, and Pokemon series all appropriately have an equal amount of characters; 7 each.

Mewtwo and Roy also returned. I feel like Fire Emblem could use a third character, and because of the lack of Fire Emblem games in the pat years, I revived Roy because of his popularity gained from being in Melee. I brought back Mewtwo, because he is still a very popular character, especially because he was unjustly cut from the series. Also, I know Pit and Little Mac may not be considered "retro" anymore by most people, but I still consider them retro so I put them in the retro category.

If this was more realistic, there wouldn't be as many newcomers. I'd probably take out characters like Toad, Shadow Mario, Dixie Kong, Krystal, and possibly others.

So, whaddaya think?

 

[Kantrip]

I honestly wouldn't mind if Diddy got his bananas taken away for Dixie and the character was changed up a bit. In brawl it's cool and all, but if the next game follows any sort of pattern, mechanics will change and bananas may not fit with the physics of the game.
I like the roster, actually, and all that would be different for me is Shadow Mario, the Custom Robo, and Little Mac.
I would also add in the Cranky Kong and Animal Buddies character that gets in through my personal bias.

 

[Starphoenix]

I'm kind of burned out on roster speculation. To be blunt, I am not excited about discussing characters because there are so few to choose from now. Those characters that are likely have been brought up hundreds of times and thus doesn't make for an interesting topic. Only the mystery of possible third party characters excites me. As I still want my Megaman and Dragon Quest representation. Coincidentally Dragon Quest is more likely to be represented than Megaman at this point. lol

All I'm asking for is some music and a stage Nintendo. ;_;

 

[Sunnysunny]

Hell yea! I'd love me some dragon quest in smash bros. Just bought my first game of the series and i'm totally in love! Although, since the art is done by the doods that do DBZ i've been naming all my characters after DBZ ones. Hurr.

Oh crap I posted in this thread. My present as a lurker is terminated.
Mmm i'll post my thoughts in the morning and stuff. This is by far one of my favorite threads to read here btw. Keep up the kick *** speculation doods. :3

 

[Soldner Kei]

well, I am getting pretty excited about this, let's hope that it won't turn out into a nice fleat of crap

I think that with Brawl third parties characters there will be more this time, well, I hope... here's the roster that would make **** mah pants

Nintendo:
Mario Bros:
-Mario-Luigi-Bowser-Peach-Wario-Waluigi
Donkey Kong:
-DK
-Diddy Kong and Trixie Kong (as one character, just like it was supposed to be in brawl)
The Legend of Zelda:
-Link (just one Link is enough)-Zelda/Sheik-Ganondorf
-Skyward Sword(or the pale guy in the trailer, a new character representing the series would be kickass)
Star Fox:
-Fox-Falco-Wolf
-Panther/Crystal(I really don't care about other spacie)
Metroid:
-Samus Aran
-Zero Suit Samus(a must in HD )
-Young Samus(this one would be cool too, but I don't think so)
-Ridley-Adam Malkovich
Kid Ikarus:
-Pit
-Palutena(well, another girl won't hurt the game right?)
Pikmin:
-Olimar(well, let's not drop out this guy, still I hate him)
F-zero:
-Captaing F*CKING Falcon(moves will be shown)
-Samurai Goroh
Kirby:
-Kirby-Metaknight-King Dedede
Fire Emblem:
-Marth-Roy-Ike
-Lyn(yay more girls)
Pokemon:
-Pikachu-PK trainer (Chikorita, Quillava, Feraligatr)
-Jigglypuff-Mewtwo (no moar furries lol)
Other Stuff:
-G&W-ROB(but I would scrap it right away)-Issac-Little Mac-Ice Climbers-Custom Robo
-*insert someone here*

now the third parties

Capcom:
-Megaman-Sonic
-Ryu (SF4 for 3DS it's a good excuse lol)
-Chris Redfield(RE: Revelations, but I'd rather want Jill lol)
Konami:
-Snake-Grayfox
-Simon Belmont(my dream would come true, or Trevor if you want, just put a freaking Belmont in the game)
Square:
-Warrior of Light(Since FF1 was for the NES )
-Chrono
Ubisoft:
-Travis Touchdown()

anyway, I'll see how many I got wrong later lol

 

[M@v]

I wont go into roster speculation and stuff, but these are my most wanted:
Most wanted 3rd party:
Zero-MegamanX/Megaman Zero series

Most wanted 1st party:
Geno-Super Mario RPG

Most wanted interesting idea:
Midna pair with wolf link. It would work as one character. Make a good moveset and the character would be awesome(Ex. Midna's energy arm thing is their grab/tether).

 

[Jaklub]

Capcom:
-Sonic

Seriously.
What is this.

 

[Pieman0920]

Looking at Spyder's list (which is strange, given how it takes out Lucario, but puts back Roy and Mewtwo and keeps Ike) I do have to voice my opinion that Zoroark probably isn't the type to get a "Lucario-like" spot, by which I mean a spot based around it being popular at the time, and having a movie. Instead, I think Victini has got that spot covered as of now. While I can't be sure of this, since it also factors into when Smash 4 starts, if the game hasn't even begun yet, or is extremely early in development, yet will come out within 2 or so years, then that's the Pokemon that would fill that type of role.

Also, I'd like to point out that Toon Zelda probably wouldn't transform into Tetra at this point, but rather into a Phantom from Spriit Tracks. While I know Tetra has shown up more, and was in one of the main console games to boot, I'd think the fact that Zelda had a much larger and active role in Spirit Tracks, combined with the fact that Tetra doesn't really do anything while the Phantom with Zelda's spirit in it does, would make its odds a bit better.

Edit: Oh yeah, why do people keep suggesting that Bowser Jr. get a Shadow Mario transformation? Seems pretty pointless to me.

 

[augustoflores]

Seriously.
What is this.

I lol'd at this.

anyways, i don't really like dragon quest i mean the only game i played of DQ/DW is Dragon Quest VIII. It is on the PS2 only, right? a-anyways, anyways, i abhor the idea of using Slime to fight with (as well as any form of chocobo and chocobo-riding).

is there any playable character in the DQ universe that can be viewed as the symbol of Dragon Quest? i seriously don't care if you can play as slime in mario sports mix or that dumb board game, there is no way we are having a slime in smash ever.
so, can anyone come up with one playable character that fits the bill? and i doubt that "Hero" is viable, we have magical starsign characters named "Hero" and "Heroine" and we aren't getting them... although their games are rather suckish and maybe obscure.

i have a tendency to ramble on.... sorry.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Coincidentally Dragon Quest is more likely to be represented than Megaman at this point. lol

Hm, what makes you say that? I've been under the impression for quite a while that Megaman was and still is the most likely third party character to be represented in a future Smash. My reasoning involves the same logic behind why Sonic was chosen... his immense popularity. Megaman's popularity is right up there close to where Sonic's once was. That simple fact alone is enough to get him in over any Dragon Quest character.

I have never played Dragon Quest... in fact I've heard very little of it outside of the fact that Slime appears as a character in Mario Sports Mix. Hopefully your reasoning isn't based off of that fact alone, though, as this simple appearance isn't nearly enough to compete with Megaman's mega popularity, at least the way I see it... maybe I'm missing something.

Looking at Spyder's list (which is strange, given how it takes out Lucario, but puts back Roy and Mewtwo and keeps Ike) I do have to voice my opinion that Zoroark probably isn't the type to get a "Lucario-like" spot, by which I mean a spot based around it being popular at the time, and having a movie. Instead, I think Victini has got that spot covered as of now. While I can't be sure of this, since it also factors into when Smash 4 starts, if the game hasn't even begun yet, or is extremely early in development, yet will come out within 2 or so years, then that's the Pokemon that would fill that type of role.

Also, I'd like to point out that Toon Zelda probably wouldn't transform into Tetra at this point, but rather into a Phantom from Spriit Tracks. While I know Tetra has shown up more, and was in one of the main console games to boot, I'd think the fact that Zelda had a much larger and active role in Spirit Tracks, combined with the fact that Tetra doesn't really do anything while the Phantom with Zelda's spirit in it does, would make its odds a bit better.

Edit: Oh yeah, why do people keep suggesting that Bowser Jr. get a Shadow Mario transformation? Seems pretty pointless to me.

Yeah, that's probably true about Victini. Only time will tell I guess, and there is definitely a good chance that we'll see a Pokemon from later generations instead of any from the current generaton. I just based my roster off what we have to work with right now, and more of what I would choose rather than what is considered most likely (although I do believe that most of my choices were up there in the neighborhood of "likely").

You're also probably right about Toon Zelda. I just haven't followed the Legend of Zelda as much in recent years, and Toon Zelda/Tetra has always been my pick. I just decided to stick with what I know there.

And people like the idea of Bowser JR./Shadow Mario because it means another transforming character, and because it will make Bowser Jr. more unique as opposed to his father, which will the decrease the chances of him being a near complete clone of Bowser. Also, I did it because it gives the Mario series seven characters, which is equal to Pokemon and Zelda on my roster. Now as much as I'd like to see Bowser JR. with a Shadow Mario transformation, I know full well that it isn't as likely anymore. Shadow Mario debuted nearly a decade ago, and hasn't been seen since. Bowser Jr. alone is more likely right now.

 

[Pieman0920]

And people like the idea of Bowser JR./Shadow Mario because it means another transforming character, and because it will make Bowser Jr. more unique as opposed to his father, which will the decrease the chances of him being a near complete clone of Bowser. Also, I did it because it gives the Mario series seven characters, which is equal to Pokemon and Zelda on my roster. Now as much as I'd like to see Bowser JR. with a Shadow Mario transformation, I know full well that it isn't as likely anymore. Shadow Mario debuted nearly a decade ago, and hasn't been seen since. Bowser Jr. alone is more likely right now.

The problem with that line of thought is that while you're worried about Bowser Jr. seeming too much like Bowser, you neglect the fact that Shadow Mario would be too much like Mario. While you could make the argument that he could use the paintbrush, the better idea in my mind is to just give that to Bowser Jr to use, and be done with it. If you only give it to Shadow Mario, you're likely just going to have a Bowser Jr. that is basically like Bowser (and possibly Squirtle in terms of Squirtle's Side-B move) and then the somewhat unique Shadow Mario with the paintbrush. Thus, its probably better to cut out the middleman here and just give Bowser Jr. the paintbrush to make him more unique.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

The problem with that line of thought is that while you're worried about Bowser Jr. seeming too much like Bowser, you neglect the fact that Shadow Mario would be too much like Mario. While you could make the argument that he could use the paintbrush, the better idea in my mind is to just give that to Bowser Jr to use, and be done with it. If you only give it to Shadow Mario, you're likely just going to have a Bowser Jr. that is basically like Bowser (and possibly Squirtle in terms of Squirtle's Side-B move) and then the somewhat unique Shadow Mario with the paintbrush. Thus, its probably better to cut out the middleman here and just give Bowser Jr. the paintbrush to make him more unique.

If Bowser Jr. ever appeared in a future Smash, what you just explained is what I'd expect to happen (if he doesn't get clonified). But remember, my roster was based more on what I'd do if I was in the position to develop SSB4. A lot of it seems pretty likely to me, besides minor things like, of course, Shadow Mario.

When it comes to roster speculation, movesets aren't the thing to discuss. I'm sure people expected that if Ike were to appear in Brawl, he'd be a clone of Marth, and if Toon Link were to appear in Brawl, he'd have an original moveset. People also expected Ganondorf to get a completely decloned (or at least more luigified) moveset. None of that happened though. Thats why I often leave movesets alone and stick to characters.

I'd like to think that Bowser Jr. will make the cut for SSB4 with Shadow Mario as his transformation, both with original movesets. But since the likelihood of Shadow Mario actually appearing as Bowser Jr.'s transformation is rather low, and since he is on my roster anyway, might as well imagine that both will have different movesets. Besides, its more characters without pushing the limit!

 

[Starphoenix]

anyways, i don't really like dragon quest i mean the only game i played of DQ/DW is Dragon Quest VIII. It is on the PS2 only, right? a-anyways, anyways, i abhor the idea of using Slime to fight with (as well as any form of chocobo and chocobo-riding).

is there any playable character in the DQ universe that can be viewed as the symbol of Dragon Quest? i seriously don't care if you can play as slime in mario sports mix or that dumb board game, there is no way we are having a slime in smash ever.
so, can anyone come up with one playable character that fits the bill? and i doubt that "Hero" is viable, we have magical starsign characters named "Hero" and "Heroine" and we aren't getting them... although their games are rather suckish and maybe obscure.

i have a tendency to ramble on.... sorry.

Well I'll have to disagree with you on the Slime bit... But anyways to answer your question there are stand out protagonists. Problem is most of them don't have names. lol

However, Erdrick is the most popular and widely known amongst the series. Being the basis of Dragon Quest I-III.

Just watch this
http://youtu.be/1Hx4VhbEdBY

Hm, what makes you say that? I've been under the impression for quite a while that Megaman was and still is the most likely third party character to be represented in a future Smash. My reasoning involves the same logic behind why Sonic was chosen... his immense popularity. Megaman's popularity is right up there close to where Sonic's once was. That simple fact alone is enough to get him in over any Dragon Quest character.

I have never played Dragon Quest... in fact I've heard very little of it outside of the fact that Slime appears as a character in Mario Sports Mix. Hopefully your reasoning isn't based off of that fact alone, though, as this simple appearance isn't nearly enough to compete with Megaman's mega popularity, at least the way I see it... maybe I'm missing something.

Anyone who knows me knows I have been a big proponent of the Dragon Quest series appearing in Smash Bros for awhile now.

My reasoning is based upon many different points that I have elaborated on several occasions. So I'm going to take the lazy way out this time and condense them into bullet points. If I NEED to explain them further I shall:

1: The popularity of Dragon Quest in Japan is unparalleled and massive. In a market where the industry has been in a slump this franchise continues to sell well.

2: Nintendo has had a hand in localizing the past two games (and in the near future 3) overseas. Pledging support to help establish the series overseas. Which has proven effective due to Dragon Quest XI making Nintendo's million seller list.

3: Continuing on from point 2 what better marketing tool for a series has Nintendo had other then Super Smash Bros? Fire Emblems emergence in the West has much to do with Melee's introduction of Marth and Roy. SquareEnix, likely, wouldn't be hesitant in allowing this if such a deal were in the works.

4: It is in Nintendo's interest to keep Dragon Quest a "Nintendo centered" series and indeed has been. Out of the ten main games and spin offs only two (VII and VIII) were for other consoles. Though nothing every truly hurts them they do lose a little by not having the latest Final Fantasy installment. This is why Nintendo continues to push the series as much as they do.

5: On it's own merits Dragon Quest would bring something interesting to a sequel. Imagine fighting in a floating castle in the clouds with dramatic orchestrated music in the background. Though more subjective that is a fun idea.

6: As far as my comment on Megaman. I believe once Keiji Inafune left Capcom Megaman's chances slimmed. Inafune made several comments in favor of Megaman appearing in a game one day. He was in a position were if he truly wanted to could have pushed it. With him gone uncertainty surrounds the other managers on whether they favor or even think about Smash Bros. With Nintendo handling the Dragon Quest more closely I just think as it stands now it would be an easier deal at this point.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Anyone who knows me knows I have been a big proponent of the Dragon Quest series appearing in Smash Bros for awhile now.

My reasoning is based upon many different points that I have elaborated on several occasions. So I'm going to take the lazy way out this time and condense them into bullet points. If I NEED to explain them further I shall:

1: The popularity of Dragon Quest in Japan is unparalleled and massive. In a market where the industry has been in a slump this franchise continues to sell well.

2: Nintendo has had a hand in localizing the past two games (and in the near future 3) overseas. Pledging support to help establish the series overseas. Which has proven effective due to Dragon Quest XI making Nintendo's million seller list.

3: Continuing on from point 2 what better marketing tool for a series has Nintendo had other then Super Smash Bros? Fire Emblems emergence in the West has much to do with Melee's introduction of Marth and Roy. SquareEnix, likely, wouldn't be hesitant in allowing this if such a deal were in the works.

4: It is in Nintendo's interest to keep Dragon Quest a "Nintendo centered" series and indeed has been. Out of the ten main games and spin offs only two (VII and VIII) were for other consoles. Though nothing every truly hurts them they do lose a little by not having the latest Final Fantasy installment. This is why Nintendo continues to push the series as much as they do.

5: On it's own merits Dragon Quest would bring something interesting to a sequel. Imagine fighting in a floating castle in the clouds with dramatic orchestrated music in the background. Though more subjective that is a fun idea.

6: As far as my comment on Megaman. I believe once Keiji Inafune left Capcom Megaman's chances slimmed. Inafune made several comments in favor of Megaman appearing in a game one day. He was in a position were if he truly wanted to could have pushed it. With him gone uncertainty surrounds the other managers on whether they favor or even think about Smash Bros. With Nintendo handling the Dragon Quest more closely I just think as it stands now it would be an easier deal at this point.

Sorry that this is a very long read.... I tend to type on and on forever and never stop, just to get a few points across.

Yeah, I figured you were a pretty big supporter of some Dragon Quest representation. Just try not to let your own bias get in the way of proper reasoning and logic.

It is true that the Dragon Quest series is pretty popular in Japan, and it has been for a while. And since the series was brought overseas, it has sold very well. Still, most of that popularity and most of those sales come from Japan. I feel like right now, the series is a bit obscure to western markets (I have certainly never heard of it outside of Slime appearing in Mario Sports Mix), and while you might believe that it doesn't matter, it actually does quite a lot.

Some people use the logic that X character or X series is very popular in Japan, so the chances of it getting playable representation is increased. I don't believe in this reasoning at all. In fact, it seems like a much more sensible marketing approach to include characters that are known WORLDWIDE, and are also popular worldwide, then to include characters from Japan simply because they are more popular in Japan.

Of course, there are a couple examples of Japanese series and characters appearing in Smash and usually benefiting greatly from it. One obvious example is Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem's appearance in Melee greatly helped promote it, but it's inclusion seems to be more simply based on Sakurai's own bias. This is also true for Lucas from the MOTHER series. MOTHER 3 was only released in Japan, but Lucas' inclusion was mostly due to Sakurai's bias and love for the series. Obviously, there aren't two MOTHER characters in the game because of their "iconic status with Nintendo." I have two sources where I could have possibly discovered this information pertaining Sakurai's bias and I can post them if you wish, and if you haven't seen them before (I'm sure most people here have). If the information can't be found in either of those sources, I don't know what you can do other than take my word for it I guess.

So worldwide popularity AND familiarity is pretty important. Megaman is both very popular around the world and also very well known, or at least recognizable, to many gamers. Dragon Quest, although more popular than Megaman in Japan (based on sales) is a more obscure series to the western market, despite the couple games that were sold worldwide. Lastly, Megaman's popularity among Smash fans in general is much greater than Dragon Quest's popularity.

Let's not forget that not only is Dragon Quest more obscure to western markets and much more popular in Japan, but it is also a third party series. We know that Sakurai sees these characters as "guest characters," and he knows that some people resent the fact that third party characters appeared in this Nintendo fighting series, so introducing more third party characters and series isn't something he would consider easy. Snake got in because of a special request from his developer, and I'm sure that played its part in promoting Brawl to fans who would otherwise not care for the game. Sonic got in because of popularity alone, and I can definitely see that happening with Megaman.

Lastly, I don't think that Capcom's (or whoever is in charge of Megaman) thoughts differ much from Inafune's. I don't see why they would be reluctant to offer Megaman or allow his inclusion, especially since Smash works great as a promotional tool. While that would greatly help Dragon Quest, I don't see why Megaman would be reluctant to accept some promotion as well.

The bottom line is, Megaman is more popular worldwide and with Smash fans in general and he is more familiar to western markets AS WELL AS the Japanese market. His popularity puts him close to the same position Sonic was in before Brawl and even before Melee, and this plus the fact that he is easily recognizable around the world makes him much more likely than any Dragon Quest character. Remember, they are both third parties, so that already wounds their chances a bit.

See what I'm saying? REALLY SORRY for the huge post!!!

 

[Shorts]

Fine, I'll bite. Characters for Competitive Oriented Smash. I tried to pack in roster suprises/fan service.

Super Mario Series:
Mario (Doc. As alt)
Luigi
Peach (Diasy/Rosalina Alt. color /Alt Costume Sports)
Bowser
Bowser Jr. (NSMBW/Paintbrush Moveset)
Yoshi
Wario (Smoothe Moves alt. costume)

DK:
Donkey Kong
Diddy/Dixie Tag Team (Play like IC's, but can slap out for one another w/ unique moves)

Legend Of Zelda:
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link (PH/WW/ST Moveset)
Vaati

Kirby:
Kirby (Yarn Costume)
Meta Knight (Nerfed enough, still a beast though)
King DeDeDe

Pokemon:
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer Ethan(Lyra/Silver as Alternate costumes) (Fer/Bay/Cyn)
Deoxys
Victini

Star Fox
Fox (Falco as a perfect Clone. Used instead of Alt. Costume)
Wolf
Krystal (Gatlin/Explosives/Staff)

Fire Emblem:
Marth
Ike
Caeda (Oriented to play with Primarly Staff/Lancing moves)

EarthBound:
Ness
Lucas (Claus color)

Metroid
Samus/ZSS (Dark Samus alt. color)
Ridley

Kid Icarus
Pit (Moveset Oriented Towards Uprising)
Medusa

Other Series
Captain Falcon
Olimar
R.O.B
Game&Watch
Little Mac
Isaac
Ashley Robbins (Trace Memory)
Sabure Prince (For the Frog the Bell tolls)
Mii characters (Small/Medium/Large characters all have different movesets)

3rd Party:
Sonic
Geno/Black Mage (I know some HATE Geno)
Megaman
Bomberman

That's a total of 47 characters. If we need to cut, this is the order of the characters cute:
Ashley
Sabure Prince
Bomberman
Clones/Costumes
Doexys
Vaati
Bowser Jr.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

The bottom line is, Megaman is more popular worldwide and with Smash fans in general and he is more familiar to western markets AS WELL AS the Japanese market.

Sadly, Capcom of Japan doesn't seem to think so.

 

[Starphoenix]

See what I'm saying? REALLY SORRY for the huge post!!!

I do. I very much agree with you. You seem more hung up on my comment about Dragon Quest in comparison to Megaman more than anything. When really it's just a statement I was kind of just throwing out there, kind of an off hand joke.

Yes Megaman does not have the disadvantage that Dragon Quest does when it comes the worldwide appeal. The reason I feel Dragon Quest has the chance it does is because of the fact you stated previously. It isn't very familiar in the West. That's why, whether a character or simply a stage, I think it could happen. Nintendo and SquareEnix have been/are collaborating on expanding the "goo-niverse" into the West (in the interest of both companies). That is what Iwata comitted to, and so Nintendo has been publishing the recent titles overseas with moderate success. With that, as I stated previously, Nintendo has no better marketing tool than Super Smash Bros.

Then I know it leads to the next question, "would Nintendo really go through the trouble of adding a third party franchise for the sake of advertisement/business deal?" No, they wouldn't. While things I have stated are reasons I suspect it could happen does not equate to saying it will or that it is even likely. What I am saying is out of the third party franchises being tossed around it is more likely than any other beyond Megaman. While the fanbase in Japan doesn't set in stone any certainties it isn't to be dismissed either. It still has a following overseas, that has been expanding a little, just not in comparison to Megaman. Obviously.

Also, fun note about Sakurai, he did a joint interview with the producer of Dragon Quest IX awhile back. They talked Kirby, Super Smash Bros, and Dragon Quest.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Now I know they might not make another one, but I heard a lot of different ideas (good & absolutely stupid) of who should be in the next game. I believe they shouldn't add more than 8 new fighters and here are some of my picks:
+King K. Rool (Donkey Kong Country)
+Geno (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
+Banjo & Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie)
+Tails (Sonic the Hedgehog)
+Black Shadow (F-Zero)
-Maybe List
+Bomberman (Bomberman)
+Simon (Castlevania)

 

[augustoflores]

Now I know they might not make another one, but I heard a lot of different ideas (good & absolutely stupid) of who should be in the next game. I believe they shouldn't add more than 8 new fighters and here are some of my picks:
+King K. Rool (Donkey Kong Country)
+Geno (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
+Banjo & Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie)
+Tails (Sonic the Hedgehog)
+Black Shadow (F-Zero)
-Maybe List
+Bomberman (Bomberman)
+Simon (Castlevania)

uuuummmm... im not sure what was said... in my mind, the sentence could either meant those are 8 new fighters they shouldn't add or "here are some of my picks" to be in the next smash.

obviously you have seen some pretty stupid roster picks as evidenced by your words, and if these are ones you would want in the next game then you are not allowed to have Banjo-Kazooie, so i can only insinuate that this list is some that are stupid choices.

I agree with B-K and Tails as completely ********, the rest are, meh, either have them or don't, not really gonna rile the community with backlash.

maan, you only put in 7 characters!... okay, i will add for you... Waluigi, there, the most ******** character put in a fan roster. you're welcome.

 

[Gatlin]

Don't be so harsh about it, he simply made a list of characters he would like to see. Doesn't matter if in fact these characters will be in the next Smash or not.

 

[Jaklub]

Fine, I'll bite. Characters for Competitive Oriented Smash. I tried to pack in roster suprises/fan service.

I still wonder why many people think Smash 4 will be better than Brawl in terms of competitiveness.

Somebody give me a link that would prove that Smash 4 would be more aimed for competitive playing.

 

[Kantrip]

I still wonder why many people think Smash 4 will be better than Brawl in terms of competitiveness.

Somebody give me a link that would prove that Smash 4 would be more aimed for competitive playing.

Here you are.

 

[Shorts]

I still wonder why many people think Smash 4 will be better than Brawl in terms of competitiveness.

Somebody give me a link that would prove that Smash 4 would be more aimed for competitive playing.

Besides these small things:
1. Project Cafe is rumored to be oriented more towards Hardcore gamers
2. Sakurai may very well not be working on the project if it is truely showing at E3,
3. Sakurai was the one who wanted it casualized
4. Sakurai made the gameplay the way he did despite objections from Miyamoto

Other then these realitively small things, we have no proof. I do think the game will be more like Melee, or at least nothing like Brawl, because of the feedback Nintendo must have gotten from the Hardcore fans. Like I said, Brawl2 would be a big mistake and if the game was to get even more casualized I honestly wouldn't buy it.

So really, I used an educated process to come to my conclusion, not purely "wishful thinking". Which is something a lot of new posters could try to do.


Edit: And whoever brought up the "80% of brawl was developing SSE" quote originally should give me a link. I want to know if this is true.

 

[Jaklub]

Besides these small things:
1. Project Cafe is rumored to be oriented more towards Hardcore gamers
2. Sakurai may very well not be working on the project if it is truely showing at E3,
3. Sakurai was the one who wanted it casualized
4. Sakurai made the gameplay the way he did despite objections from Miyamoto

Other then these realitively small things, we have no proof. I do think the game will be more like Melee, or at least nothing like Brawl, because of the feedback Nintendo must have gotten from the Hardcore fans. Like I said, Brawl2 would be a big mistake and if the game was to get even more casualized I honestly wouldn't buy it.

So really, I used an educated process to come to my conclusion, not purely "wishful thinking". Which is something a lot of new posters could try to do.


Edit: And whoever brought up the "80% of brawl was developing SSE" quote originally should give me a link. I want to know if this is true.

Nintendo 3DS had to be purposely more oriented at hardcore gamers as well, but then NGP appeared out of nowhere. The sad fact is that many of so called hardcore gamers are graphics *****s as well. If Project Cafe will really be more aimed towards hardcores, Nintendo will have not only to reach PS3 level, but kick it's ***. Which probably won't happen.
But, Nintendo 3DS is out for a short time, we'll see as time passes by.

 

[Shorts]

Nintendo 3DS had to be purposely more oriented at hardcore gamers as well, but then NGP appeared out of nowhere. The sad fact is that many of so called hardcore gamers are graphics *****s as well. If Project Cafe will really be more aimed towards hardcores, Nintendo will have not only to reach PS3 level, but kick it's ***. Which probably won't happen.
But, Nintendo 3DS is out for a short time, we'll see as time passes by.

Well, I think if you are a Nintendo fan and a Hardcore gamer you don't exactly think graphics are #1 priority. In fact, any hardcore gamer should really undertsand this concept: No matter how pretty a game is, if it sucks it sucks. The hardcore fans weren't at all complaining about brawl's graphics, it was more towards gameplay. Brawl is really pretty. Besides rumors are floating around that Project Cafe will be extensively more powerful then Xbox 360 and PS3.

 

[ryuu seika]

Here's a thought: Rare stuff is allowed to appear on Nintendo handhelds.
It's still a bit farfetched to put things mildly but Banjo could make an appearance if smash 4 is on the 3DS.

 

[Big-Cat]

Besides these small things:
1. Project Cafe is rumored to be oriented more towards Hardcore gamers
2. Sakurai may very well not be working on the project if it is truely showing at E3,
3. Sakurai was the one who wanted it casualized
4. Sakurai made the gameplay the way he did despite objections from Miyamoto

Other then these realitively small things, we have no proof. I do think the game will be more like Melee, or at least nothing like Brawl, because of the feedback Nintendo must have gotten from the Hardcore fans. Like I said, Brawl2 would be a big mistake and if the game was to get even more casualized I honestly wouldn't buy it.

So really, I used an educated process to come to my conclusion, not purely "wishful thinking". Which is something a lot of new posters could try to do.


Edit: And whoever brought up the "80% of brawl was developing SSE" quote originally should give me a link. I want to know if this is true.

As I've said before, I honestly believe Sakurai has his thought process on designing backwards. As I said in another thread, Sakurai thinks the best thing that'll appeal to a lot of people is what I call competitive socialism. He effectively wants all skill irrelevant. He wants it where someone who's played a game for two years can easily be beaten by someone who's only played the game for two days.

I honestly hope that Street Fighter IV and the fighting games coming out following it and Miyamoto's philosophy will convince him otherwise. Considering his office has arcade sticks, there is hope.

For those of you who think Nintendo shouldn't listen to the core gamers: Remember that it's the core gamers that are far more likely to stick around than casual gamers. In fact, Nintendo has stated several times that the casual market is unstable.

I've tried to find the article that says he spent 60%(not 80%) working on online and the SSE in the past, but to no avail.

 

[Jaklub]

For those of you who think Nintendo shouldn't listen to the core gamers: Remember that it's the core gamers that are far more likely to stick around than casual gamers. In fact, Nintendo has stated several times that the casual market is unstable.

I feel like it's towards me.
Nintendo does know that casual market is unstable, but I don't think 180 degree turn with Project Cafe will happen.

 

[BirthNote]

Did I miss the Bowser Jr. discussion? If not, here's my 2 cents.

If Jr. did get in, he could get SOME of his moves from his siblings. There's a good amount of Koopaling attacks that can come from Super Mario Bros. 3 all the way up to New Super Mario Bros. Wii as well as attacks of his own. You fight Bowser Jr. plenty of times in NSMB DS, so shell-based attacks may not be an issue. Also, I was thinking that he could use HIS (not Bowser's) Koopa Clown Car as an Up Special in which he hovers for a short time.

Another idea is to have him use his paintbrush. Its unique, however I don't think Shadow Mario should be involved. In Sunshine, Bowser Jr. didn't use the brush to transform--he used a black and dark blue kerchief with a drawing of Mario's moustache. Bowser Jr. no longer wears this, but his paintbrush is still used from time to time.

So, my idea for Bowser's 8th child is for him to use his siblings' attacks as well as his own, his Clown Car, and paintbrush. However, there's a "Bowser Clone" risk. Hopefully the height/weight/size differences between Bowser and Jr. can prevent this. The clones and semiclones usually share the same height and physique of the originals. Young and Toon Link CAN contradict that statement, but you have to keep in mind that the Links are the same person, while Bowser and Jr. aren't. If that's not valid to some, keep in mind that TLink has some different moves to compensate for his shape. He never kicks.

I will continue this later.

 

[Big-Cat]

I feel like it's towards me.
Nintendo does know that casual market is unstable, but I don't think 180 degree turn with Project Cafe will happen.

I think they'll be going for a balance this go around. The big problem with the Wii is that there weren't enough core titles and bridge titles around to get casuals to become permanent customers which is what Nintendo wanted.

And I think if they were to ensure Smash remained accessible, even with a revamp, I think it'll be more so in the execution area than anywhere else. For example, we have two jump buttons. Make one for light, and another for heavy jumps instead of having to get the timing down.

 

[SinisterB]

Here's a thought: Rare stuff is allowed to appear on Nintendo handhelds.
It's still a bit farfetched to put things mildly but Banjo could make an appearance if smash 4 is on the 3DS.

I'm leaning more towards Conker. He just seems so perfect for Smash and he has like, 100001 possibilities for a moveset. CFD could be a possible 3DS title, so i'm hoping he has potential.

Dat frying pan.

Did I miss the Bowser Jr. discussion? If not, here's my 2 cents.

If Jr. did get in, he could get SOME of his moves from his siblings. There's a good amount of Koopaling attacks that can come from Super Mario Bros. 3 all the way up to New Super Mario Bros. Wii as well as attacks of his own. You fight Bowser Jr. plenty of times in NSMB DS, so shell-based attacks may not be an issue. Also, I was thinking that he could use HIS (not Bowser's) Koopa Clown Car as an Up Special in which he hovers for a short time.

Another idea is to have him use his paintbrush. Its unique, however I don't think Shadow Mario should be involved. In Sunshine, Bowser Jr. didn't use the brush to transform--he used a black and dark blue kerchief with a drawing of Mario's moustache. Bowser Jr. no longer wears this, but his paintbrush is still used from time to time.

So, my idea for Bowser's 8th child is for him to use his siblings' attacks as well as his own, his Clown Car, and paintbrush. However, there's a "Bowser Clone" risk. Hopefully the height/weight/size differences between Bowser and Jr. can prevent this. The clones and semiclones usually share the same height and physique of the originals. Young and Toon Link CAN contradict that statement, but you have to keep in mind that the Links are the same person, while Bowser and Jr. aren't. If that's not valid to some, keep in mind that TLink has some different moves to compensate for his shape. He never kicks.

I will continue this later.

I'm a big supporter of Bowser Jr in the next Smash (assuming there is a Smash4). You gave some perfect examples of why he won't be a clone. I wouldn't mind if he had firebreath anyways.

I have a good feeling about this next smash, for some reason. Project Cafe in itself is a good concept, and it seems like Nintendo might actually follow up. They're bringing controllers back, at least.

Miyamoto for prez.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I do. I very much agree with you....

Yes Megaman does not have the disadvantage that Dragon Quest does when it comes the worldwide appeal. The reason I feel Dragon Quest has the chance it does is because of the fact you stated previously. It isn't very familiar in the West. That's why, whether a character or simply a stage, I think it could happen. Nintendo and SquareEnix have been/are collaborating on expanding the "goo-niverse" into the West (in the interest of both companies). That is what Iwata comitted to, and so Nintendo has been publishing the recent titles overseas with moderate success. With that, as I stated previously, Nintendo has no better marketing tool than Super Smash Bros.....

Also, fun note about Sakurai, he did a joint interview with the producer of Dragon Quest IX awhile back. They talked Kirby, Super Smash Bros, and Dragon Quest.

Ah, understood. See, while Smash obviously works wonders as a promotional tool, I hate the idea of it being USED simply as that. I see Smash as a "best of Nintendo" series that combines the most iconic characters, locations, items, and other elements into one single game. I mean, that's what it is, besides characters and things present in the game because of Sakurai's own bias. If it was used as a promotional tool, it wouldn't really be a "best of" series anymore. It'd contain too many obscure and lesser known franchises that Nintendo or some third party developer is trying to promote, and that shouldn't happen to a game like Smash.

And that interview sounds quite interesting, I'll have to check that out myself.

I think they'll be going for a balance this go around. The big problem with the Wii is that there weren't enough core titles and bridge titles around to get casuals to become permanent customers which is what Nintendo wanted.

Agreed with this statement. I find it very unlikely that Nintendo will abandon (or at least trail away from) their casual mindset... As much as I hate to admit it, it's obviously worked out pretty well for them. But I'm sure they have realized that they can't completely abandon core gamers, and so I feel like we'll see more balance.

It's just Smash I'm worried about. You'd think that it'd be oriented toward competitive gamers, but with Sakurai at the wheel, that seems pretty unlikely. Who knows, maybe Sakurai will change his ways, or maybe we'll get a new developer. Only time will tell, and hopefully we'll find out in a month.

 

[Big-Cat]

Guys, for the first time in forever, we don't have the page glitch!