[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[flyinfilipino]

Can I just point out that I much preferred Melee's music to Brawl's? I know that's not your main point but I felt I had to counter that "fan's enjoy Brawl's music" claim of yours.

Yeah, well.

At least a lot of Melee's songs are in Brawl (limited to certain stages, but yeah, at least it's there)! The only thing I was miffed about was the lack of Fourside's theme.

 

[BirthNote]

I think these dialogue things should be NOWHERE near the length of Snake's codecs or the Starfox crew's conversations. They should only be a sentence or two, about as quick as "The fight is on!" and far between each other. That way, we don't hear a 12 minute speech or words constantly thrown back and forth. The things Mario says should relate to the corresponding fighter he's facing. Imagine him saying "So long, King Bowser!" as he Star KOs the Koopa's last life.

I think the dialogue should be light in length, because I don't want to care about their discussion (which it shouldn't be) more than their fight. A few opponent-specific phrases are good.

 

[Shorts]

I agree with BirthNote, but also characters who actually don't use/know language should have some sort of something. Like I said, maybe an unique intro or something? Like maybe when there is a one on one match with pokemon the PKMN text box comes up and says something clever. Like "A Wild Pokemon has appeared!". Or when you when a Pokemon KO's another it makes a fainting noise? Just a thought. Have you thought about unique taunts? I saw something like this on the SSBF2 character expansion forums. This Luigi's mansion ghost character had a unique intro whenever Luigi, King Boo, and another character were battling them. Like maybe when Sheik is battling Link they both can taunt using Ocarina/Harp.

As for the Brawl vs. Melee Music discussion I think Brawl's music kind of blew Melee's out of the water. More of a selection, and it had some of Melee's music too. It was a lot of (Non SMRPG) fanservice. Which is always a plus. It's one of the things I wish I had when I'm playing Melee.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Yeah, but I think Kuma was suggesting it during battles.

Oh, those would be fine, technically we have that already with Grey Fox and Snake. As long as they aren't being forced in like "Peach should tell Ganon to stop being a meanie a-har-har" then it's fine.

And no offense Shortie, but those are pretty bad.



@Ryuu: If someone's arguing that Melee's soundtrack is better than Brawl's, I assume they're either talking about original stuff (menu theme and whatnot) or original remixes that debuted in Melee. I'd agree with the former, I never cared for the Brawl theme.

 

[ryuu seika]

At least a lot of Melee's songs are in Brawl (limited to certain stages, but yeah, at least it's there)! The only thing I was miffed about was the lack of Fourside's theme.

Yes but they just don't feel the same. Plus, where is Melee's Gourmet Race?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Green Greens?

 

[ryuu seika]

I don't think so. Is that where they put the very different Brawl version of Gourmet Race?

 

[Supermario12]

What about team Taunts?, like if Mario and Luigi are on the same team they have a Taunt were they Interact with each other.

 

[Arcadenik]

No, that's a bad idea. Think about it... if I am playing as Mario and you are playing as Luigi and we are in a team... and when you do a taunt, you are forcing me to stop fighting and taunt along with you... leaving myself vulnerable to attacks. No, it should be for victory scenes after the match ends.

 

[Shorts]

. No, it should be for victory scenes after the match ends.

I second this Idea. Though the whole topic that was being discussed was sort of talking about "In-Game" stuff. I don't think this really counts as that.

 

[pass the syrup]

What if Youtube becomes a character in the next game. Neutral B is the Charlie Bite, Down B is Choclate Rain, Side Smash would be a FailBlog bike crash, Down Smash is "Which seat should I take?" which stuns opponents with confusion, Side B is the David After Dentist roar, Dash Attack could be a Rick Roll, various A attacks could be like and dislike buttons, Up B would be going viral, and the Final Smash could be Trolling Video Comments.

 

[Supermario12]

Has anyone ever thought about this for Link, Instead Of Taking out Bombs for his B Down special He can Take out the ocarina of time and Turn into Young Link? Young Link would be faster and quicker and Link would be Stronger and would have more weight.

 

[ryuu seika]

No, that's a bad idea. Think about it... if I am playing as Mario and you are playing as Luigi and we are in a team... and when you do a taunt, you are forcing me to stop fighting and taunt along with you... leaving myself vulnerable to attacks.

Or, it could work like the Hand duo's clapping in that both players have to initiate a taunt within a few frames of eachother for it to happen.

 

[moshiman]

This is my personal roster

Mario: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Koopa Bros, Geno.
LoZ: Link, Zelda/Shiek, Ganondorf, Vaati.
Yoshi: Yoshi.
F-Zero: C.Falcon, Samurai Goroh.
Wario: Wario, Waluigi.
DK: Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong,King K. Rool.
Pokemon: Pikachu, Zoroark, Pokemon Trainer ( Black and White), Jigglypuff, Mewtwo.
Kirby: Kirby, Meta Knight, DDD.
Fire Emblem: Marth, Ike, Lyn.
Earthbound/Mother: Ness, Lucas.
Star Fox: Fox, Falco, Wolf.
Smaller Franchises: Mr Game & Watch, Ice Cimbers, Pit, Little Mac, Olimar/Louie.
Third Party: Sonic, Megaman, Snake.

Should be 42 characters alltogether.
Tell me your thoughts.

 

[ryuu seika]

Why the Koopa Bros.? Why no Mewtwo? What's the point of Waluigi?

 

[SmashChu]

SmashChu, for everything you don't like, you always say it "hurts sales". Can't you just say you don't like something instead of spewing business bull crap?

And I like Brawl's soundtrack more than Melee. More diversity.

Translation: WHAAAAAA, I don't like talking about business even though it influences everything with these games.

The thing you forget is that there are a lot of people that do not want to hear the characters talk. Their talking is going to be annoying and no one save for die hard Nintendo fans care. Let's also not forget that this idea came from a niche game.

Excess talking is annoying. Smash Brothers had it right by having the characters make grunts and sounds with a few phrases in there. One of the worst thing in Marvel vs Cacpom 3 is that the characters HAVE to always be talking. If you advance guard, they talk. You get up, they talk. You call in an assist, two of them talk. It's not fun; it's annoying. That is the last thing Smash needs.

 

[Big-Cat]

So if this dialogue idea came from a game that sold a lot, it must be worth doing because that dialogue was totally the cause for the sales?

Instead of worrying about sales, realize that we are all gamers here, not shareholders. We have our own likes, dislikes, etc., even if they don't agree with Nintendo's philosophy. All I'm saying is to stop dragging sales into everything and making faulty correlations with extremeties because it's hurting your argument.

You can argue accessibility, etc. all you like, but don't act like you speak for a crowd.

And the fact that you say the dialogue in MvC3 is one of the worst things about the game really says something. My biggest complaint with that game is X-Factor.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Translation: WHAAAAAA, I don't like talking about business even though it influences everything with these games.

The thing you forget is that there are a lot of people that do not want to hear the characters talk. Their talking is going to be annoying and no one save for die hard Nintendo fans care. Let's also not forget that this idea came from a niche game.

Yeah, you really are just stretching it. I bet Brawl sold significantly less copies because Captain Falcon yells "Come on!" before his Final Smash, hm? Away with character speech completely in Smash; that idea came from other fighting games, so it must be hurting sales! Hell, let's just make the whole game silent. Shouting while attacking comes from other fighting games; that's bad! Music playing during battles comes from other fighting games; that's bad! Sound effects come from other fighting games; that's bad! The only thing that matters is that the game is easy to play, so people will buy it.

 

[Shorts]

Well I agree with SmashChu solely on the idea that excessive talking is annoying. But I don't think that what we're aiming for would even be considered excessive? We have discussed custom intros, endings, kill quotes and taunts. None of these can qualify as excessive unless you troll your taunts but that is your own fault then. Not to mention no one has argued to have all four of these things show up, just one or two of them. Besides, there are plenty of characters who don't have the ability to talk, so unless we can decide what to do with those characters the idea is flawed. Lastly, it's safe to say that 90% of the users who post on a thread about a game that hasn't even had the luxury to be hinted at are, in fact, diehard fans.

 

[Kantrip]

I know some casuals who would buy the game regardless of if there was talking or not because they wouldn't research or look into it. They're not going to look on the back of the case at their local game shop and see "NOW WITH MORE SPEECH THAN EVER BEFORE!!!" because the game wouldn't say that. They would buy the game because they loved the previous smashes, and they would notice the increased dialogue, and regardless of their opinion of it, they already bought the game! Sales would not be hurt.

 

[moshiman]

As this is my personal roster I put in Waluigi and the koopa bros because they are my favourite characters from the mario series.

 

[ryuu seika]

@Crimson: Definitely agreed. Noone would know until they bought it.

@Moshiman: Seems fair, I was jut wondering if there was a reason.

While we're talking about dream rosters though, here's something stupid that would never happen:

Mario: Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Toad.
LoZ: Link, Mirror Link, Zelda/Shiek, Ganondorf (new version).
Yoshi: Yoshi, Heiho.
F-Zero: Captain Falcon, Phoenix, James McCloud.
Wario: nobody.
DK: Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, WizPig, TT.
Pokemon: Pichu, Mewtwo.
Kirby: Kirby, Meta Knight, Yarn Kirby.
Fire Emblem: Marth, Ike.
Earthbound/Mother: Ness.
Star Fox: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Leon.
Smaller Franchises: Mr Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Balloon Fighter, Dr. Kawashima.
Third Party: Sonic, Megaman, Lloyd, Banjo, Jack Frost, Billy Hatcher.
Fourth Party: Bob (from the TV series "Reboot")

 

[Kantrip]

Dr. Kawashima

I lol'd.

His final smash would be making you do a connect the dots puzzle and then showing you how you did it wrong.

 

[ryuu seika]

Lol! I was just going to have him as the master of the polygons...

 

[Kantrip]

Like your profile pic? Would he have master and crazy hand too?

 

[ryuu seika]

That was the idea.

 

[SmashChu]

So if this dialogue idea came from a game that sold a lot, it must be worth doing because that dialogue was totally the cause for the sales?

Instead of worrying about sales, realize that we are all gamers here, not shareholders. We have our own likes, dislikes, etc., even if they don't agree with Nintendo's philosophy. All I'm saying is to stop dragging sales into everything and making faulty correlations with extremeties because it's hurting your argument.

You can argue accessibility, etc. all you like, but don't act like you speak for a crowd.

And the fact that you say the dialogue in MvC3 is one of the worst things about the game really says something. My biggest complaint with that game is X-Factor.

Don't get me wrong, Marvel vs Capcom 3 is a terrible game. This is just one of the many problems with it.

What you are missing is this: People don't care if there is little banter between characters and it will just annoy people and they will turn it off. That is why it is a bad idea and why it was also a bad idea in MvC 3.

Yeah, you really are just stretching it. I bet Brawl sold significantly less copies because Captain Falcon yells "Come on!" before his Final Smash, hm? Away with character speech completely in Smash; that idea came from other fighting games, so it must be hurting sales! Hell, let's just make the whole game silent. Shouting while attacking comes from other fighting games; that's bad! Music playing during battles comes from other fighting games; that's bad! Sound effects come from other fighting games; that's bad! The only thing that matters is that the game is easy to play, so people will buy it.

Jokes on you, games didn't really get into sound until the NES. Atari games had no back ground music. Sound is not a selling point, although good music can make a game very memorable (Cheetahmen is a great example of this).

Otherwise, you don't understand. Like Kuma, you see one line of text and then ignore the rest. If you didn't, you would see that the reason it is bad is because it is going to be annoying for the player.

There was someone who had a large marketing firm that said "Sweat the small stuff." he used Papa Johns a ts an example. They focus on every single ingredient and where it comes from. What I'm saying is that small things matter A LOT. There have been many a game that have failed to meet success because of small things that held it back, despite being a good game. You will be surprised about what people care about.

 

[Kantrip]

You're comparing Papa Johns to smash. When you eat pizza, you eat what you want. Why should you care where the mushrooms came from if you don't get mushrooms on your pizza? It follows that you also shouldn't care that the speech is in the game if you can turn it off and have it not affect you whatsoever.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Jokes on you, games didn't really get into sound until the NES. Atari games had no back ground music. Sound is not a selling point, although good music can make a game very memorable (Cheetahmen is a great example of this).

Otherwise, you don't understand. Like Kuma, you see one line of text and then ignore the rest. If you didn't, you would see that the reason it is bad is because it is going to be annoying for the player.

There was someone who had a large marketing firm that said "Sweat the small stuff." he used Papa Johns a ts an example. They focus on every single ingredient and where it comes from. What I'm saying is that small things matter A LOT. There have been many a game that have failed to meet success because of small things that held it back, despite being a good game. You will be surprised about what people care about.

Oh, right. I disagree with you, so I must be ignoring the rest of your posts.

The truth is, we haven't even defined this in-game banter at all, but you've already convinced yourself that it will inevitably be intrusive and obnoxious, and further, that all these "small things" are bad because you associate them with other games. No, these things don't necessarily have to be bad. You just want them to be because you're trying to prove a point, and it's really not working. It's not inherently a good thing either but, if well-executed, can only enhance the experience of the game.

 

[Rychu]

I think it's pretty obvious SmshChu is just biased against any other fighting game and isn't open to change

 

[SmashChu]

Oh, right. I disagree with you, so I must be ignoring the rest of your posts.

Here is the part you missed:

Their talking is going to be annoying and no one save for die hard Nintendo fans care. Let's also not forget that this idea came from a niche game.

Excess talking is annoying.

Yeah, that snippet there. None of what you posted was even relevant. Games have sold without background music. Games sold without VA.

The truth is, we haven't even defined this in-game banter at all, but you've already convinced yourself that it will inevitably be intrusive and obnoxious, and further, that all these "small things" are bad because you associate them with other games. No, these things don't necessarily have to be bad. You just want them to be because you're trying to prove a point, and it's really not working.

Doesn't matter. This banter will do nothing for the game. Consider this: We add the banter. Either A)People who would have already played and enjoyed the game like and the other people don't care or B)The people who would have played it any way may or may not like it while everyone else finds it a reason to turn down the volume.

Not sure if you know anything about Finance but we do not do something if the return is not worth the risk. VAs in video games are notorious for being annoying. People already find Pit's voice annoying. Think they'll be happy to have him not be able to shut up? There is no return here.

It's not inherently a good thing either but, if well-executed, can only enhance the experience of the game.

Not, it's just something people find "cool." That is irrelevant because it doesn't make the game any more fun, it does make it more accessible, and it doesn't add any more features in the game. People are not going to rave over "more talking."

The way to advance the game is to actual put GAME behind it. More characters is adding to the game. Balance is adding to the game. Accessibility is adding to the game. This is just something that could go horribly wrong.

 

[Shorts]

SmashChu, why do you keep bringing up the whole only die hard nintendo fans will appreciate the talking? That's just not true. Even a mild nintendo fan will get a Mario/Bowser reference. And honestly, we are ALL die hard nintendo fans. That's why were here. You have no idea how much talking will go on because instead of listening to our ideas and looking at the end result of our brainstorming you just try to say it wont work (Because you're psychic and can read our minds.)because *insert rand sales fact here*. You didn't let the conversation finish, therefore you have no idea how much talking would have gone down.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

if well-executed

Just curious, how many of you guys actually expect most of these to sound good?

Not that it particularly matters when the dialogue in almost any Nintendo game is flat-out terrible anyway, but I'm curious to see what kind of expectations you guys have for such a feature.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Here is the part you missed:

To which I responded with:

The truth is, we haven't even defined this in-game banter at all, but you've already convinced yourself that it will inevitably be intrusive and obnoxious, and further, that all these "small things" are bad because you associate them with other games. No, these things don't necessarily have to be bad. You just want them to be because you're trying to prove a point, and it's really not working.

Doesn't matter. This banter will do nothing for the game. Consider this: We add the banter. Either A)People who would have already played and enjoyed the game like and the other people don't care or B)The people who would have played it any way may or may not like it while everyone else finds it a reason to turn down the volume.

Or C) it could be implemented in a tasteful fashion that enhances the gameplay experience, but like all the other content in the game. You're being pessimistic, which is fine, and I would accept that, but you keep trying to attribute it to other factors like "Oh, it'll be done like it's done in other games that suck! Look at the sales!"

Not, it's just something people find "cool." That is irrelevant because it doesn't make the game any more fun, it does make it more accessible, and it doesn't add any more features in the game. People are not going to rave over "more talking."

You don't like the idea, we get it. But it could be done well. Wouldn't you trust Sakurai and friends to flesh out their game in the best way possible? Certain design decisions have to be made with each new game as well, otherwise, Brawl would still look and sound just like the 64 version. And that wouldn't be appealing to customers.

So seriously, do you get our argument here? If you think that this extra dialogue thing could potentially be executed poorly, others think it could be executed well, and we could all just agree to disagree.


@Toise: Honestly, I think the Star Fox special victory poses are cool enough, and if we could fit in more little snippets like that, I'd be happy. But that's just me.

 

[BirthNote]

About Pit's voice, who heard him speak in his 3DS trailer? Its definitely an improvement because its not so high-pitched. What do you all think of his 'new' voice?

And like I said before about dialogue, it should be light and rare. We shouldn't hear them speak as much as fighters do in MvC.

Plus, did people complain about Wolf's taunt or Ness, Lucas and the Trainer naming their Specials and Final Smash? What about the Mario Finale? ZS Samus's taunts? Snake's intro or Grey Fox's comments? How about 'Come on!', 'Nice Try!' or 'Don't try me.'? I know most people didn't complain about hearing 'Falcon Punch' and 'Show me your moves' because those have become memes.

My point is that there's talking already in Smash. Its increased in each game in different ways, but not many (if there are any) are unhappy about this because its not getting in the way. This dialogue idea won't get in the way either because its not meant to be heard every 3 seconds or as long as a codec. It can be 1 or 2 quick specific phrases said on a strictly occasional basis. Like, as frequent as you hear Pit utter 'I'm done for...'

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Well, I WAS disapointed that the Mario characters talk LESS than they normally do.

Red M didn't even shout his typical phrases other than "Lets'a Go!"

Also, I kinda wanted Meta Knight to be voiced by Eric Stuart and King Dedede to be voiced by Ted Lewis, respectively.

 

[Neontiger94]

This is my first time joining smashboards, although I used to play brawl seriously.
The only reason i made this account is for this thread. I have been a smasher since 2000, and I have lurked the thread for about two months

Now we are in April 2011. 3 years since brawl's release and almost a full decade since Melee.
I ask how long do you think till we get a glimpse of the next smash

also do any of you guys think it's already in secret development?

 

[Big-Cat]

If it's secretly development, I don't see them doing anything more than creating the design documents, describing in detail what's to be put in the game's code. For Pokemon Black and White, the first two years of development was just that and the coding was another year or two.

 

[Supermario12]

I kinda find it annoying when a charater talks to much. Sometimes i wish Pit would just shut the hell up.

 

[Kantrip]

I'm personally one of those players who picks Pit just to annoy my friends with his voice so....