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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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ToiseOfChoice

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Why do you think that is?

Also, Mewtwo had a really bad combination of attributes. It's like a bad Dhalsim without the zoning aspects.
Balance? Variety? Take your pick. Most of the characters in Smash are originally pretty fast, it's more believable to make the bigger guys slow/strong rather than the little ones. I like heavyweights so I'm not complaining, even if I'd prefer Samus moved nearly as fast as she does in her own games.

And I always figured Mewtwo was supposed to end up not too different from Dedede, a heavyweight with good recovery but fewer killing moves than someone like Ganon or Ike.



edit: this moderator business is lame, I can't vandalize Pieman's posts or anything
 

Big-Cat

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I haven't been on the boards all day. WTF is this ****?
 

RavenMist

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For SSB4, I'm thinking 1-2 more sonic characters, pit might get cut, and maybe KH. (Sora or Roxas) <_< Don't know if they're smash material though.
Oh dear god no as much as i love sonic chars/not really
theyre third party characters so is KH
pit is a OMGWTF character liek ice climbers,G&W,ROB likely he's staying in
I'll be ****ed if sora or roxas makes it in
not likely though
 

ElPanandero

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I'm not a moderator. ('_' )

EDIT: Oh wait, I am....wait, it says I'm a Smash Champion up there. Oh well, I guess my super moderator powers just kicked in now.

Also EP, while everyone cane have their own opinions, sometimes opinions can be wrong. :embarrass
Like you (and everyone else >.>) liking galaxy?
 

Cyn

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For SSB4, I'm thinking 1-2 more sonic characters.............
IF they add any sonic characters (which they probably shouldn't), it should only be 1 (not 2), and it should only either be between Tails or the Doc, since they are the most senior characters to the series, and still obviously well known in the series
 

Pieman0920

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...I was only a moderator for one post, wasn't I... ;-;

Anyways, I don't know much of anything about the Sonic series, but I always sort of thought that Knuckles would be the most likely seccond addition. =/
 

ElPanandero

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Basically Tails and Knuckles are the main suppor (with tails having slight eniority (by one game I believe)) while Eggman is the standard archenem, though he'd be awful in Smash.
 

Big-Cat

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His light weight is attributed to his psychic abilities that you were complaining were not displayed. Honestly, while Shadow Ball isn't psychic, and neither is Disable (to my surprise) his other two specials were psychic moves, and there really shouldn't be any complaining that his psychic abilities were underplayed. Also while he did have to fight physically, he did so with the aid of psychic powers, and quite frankly with Smash you have to fight physically anyways. While his moveset could potentially be improved so that he isn't dead last in the tiers, it does represent the character well enough in regards to portraying him as a telekenisis user.
Wait, what? How does psychic abilities equal light weight?

Arguably, Mewtwo didn't use any psychic attacks since he would've had Ness' or Zelda's attack special effects instead of this dark/ghost like color he had in his attacks if he had used pyschic attacks. The only exceptions to this was his Teleport and his utterly useless Confusion attack.

There's nothing wrong with him using physical attacks, but it's annoying that he uses Dark-like and tail related attacks for the most part which is just so weird.

Anyway, what the heck is going on with this forum?
 

Pieman0920

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Wait, what? How does psychic abilities equal light weight?

Arguably, Mewtwo didn't use any psychic attacks since he would've had Ness' or Zelda's attack special effects instead of this dark/ghost like color he had in his attacks if he had used pyschic attacks. The only exceptions to this was his Teleport and his utterly useless Confusion attack.

There's nothing wrong with him using physical attacks, but it's annoying that he uses Dark-like and tail related attacks for the most part which is just so weird.

Anyway, what the heck is going on with this forum?
Telekinesis. Moving things with your mind. He was moving himself half the time through that. Look at how he runs for instance. He's using his mind to move.

And psychic abilities are vague due to the fact that they don't quite exist. They don't need to manifest as fire or electricity quite frankly. The fact that they were quite dark though makes total sense given his portrayal in the movies and the fact that he's final boss (per say) in R/B/Y. In reality they always struck me as sort of cosmic like instead of dark really. As for the tail....he's got a friggen tail. Why wouldn't he use it?
 

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Telekinesis. Moving things with your mind. He was moving himself half the time through that. Look at how he runs for instance. He's using his mind to move.

And psychic abilities are vague due to the fact that they don't quite exist. They don't need to manifest as fire or electricity quite frankly. The fact that they were quite dark though makes total sense given his portrayal in the movies and the fact that he's final boss (per say) in R/B/Y. In reality they always struck me as sort of cosmic like instead of dark really. As for the tail....he's got a friggen tail. Why wouldn't he use it?
I've always been aware of the telekinesis and whatnot, but you would figure that a Pokemon weighing 270 pounds would be significantly heavy and hard to K.O.

As for the dark effects, not really considering that his role in the movies is more of a misunderstood and confused character. Mewtwo was never truly evil like say Ridley. If Ganondorf didn't have the same effects for some of his attacks, it probably wouldn't have that dark connotation.

I'm fine with the use of the tail, but not for a large portion of his moves. It just seems uninspired is all.

Look here and you'll see that a number of attacks he had in Melee either used his tail or dark-like attacks. It'd be fine if this is what he did mostly in the Pokemon games, but that's not the case in reality.
 

Pieman0920

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I've always been aware of the telekinesis and whatnot, but you would figure that a Pokemon weighing 270 pounds would be significantly heavy and hard to K.O.

As for the dark effects, not really considering that his role in the movies is more of a misunderstood and confused character. Mewtwo was never truly evil like say Ridley. If Ganondorf didn't have the same effects for some of his attacks, it probably wouldn't have that dark connotation.

I'm fine with the use of the tail, but not for a large portion of his moves. It just seems uninspired is all.

Look here and you'll see that a number of attacks he had in Melee either used his tail or dark-like attacks. It'd be fine if this is what he did mostly in the Pokemon games, but that's not the case in reality.
He was still clearly lifting himself up with his mind half the time, gliding over the ground. It makes sense that he'd turn out to be light because of that.

Well aren't you assuming that Ganondorf has a dark effect instead of a psychic effect? :psycho:

But in all seriousness, they probably have the same effects for the sake of cutting costs.

Anyways, it actually is discribed in games (at the time) as a vicious Pokemon, and considering it doesn't matter if he is "misunderstood" or anything like that in the anime, because he still fought like that.

As for the tail, I still don't see what the problem is at all. He used it a lot sure, but that makes more sense tham him trying to throw a punch or a kick. For the most part he used his tail along with his psychic powers to propel him for the attacks, and the portrayal seems just fine really.
 

Starphoenix

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All this Mewtwo discussion is making me a sad panda, bad enough the Fourside Melee track was cut as well as the New Age Retro Hippie music. :(

So, just for fun. Lets assume in the next Smash we still have a Konami (Snake) and Sega (Sonic) character included as well as a Capcom (Megaman) and SquareEnix (random FF character). If you could choose music from other games associated to one of said companies, what would you choose?

I do not know much about Konami, vague with Sega, but in regards to Capcom and SquareEnix I know what I want. ;)

Sega - Electric Toothbrush (Jet Grind Radio): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgrEP7woep8

Capcom - Everyday Battle (Breath of Fire 3): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6ceQ8DG3U
Capcom - Ken's Theme (Street Fighter 2): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzHXP11WU6g

SE - Crono's Theme (Chrono Trigger): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87PYLs7gRRg
SE - Into The Thick Of It (Secret of Mana): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFKoFzNfQdA
 

Big-Cat

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Funny how you bring up Earthbound as I'm now getting into it. I've already rescued Paula.

EDIT: **** you auto save state from a long time ago. Now I'm back to where I was leveling up against Franky.

Anyway, for Capcom:

Ryu's Theme
Chun-Li's Theme
I'm so split between Ken's HD Remix theme or the metal version for the menu.
Guile's Theme (Freaking perfect for a Starfox level)
Cammy's Theme
Sakura's Theme
M. Bison's Theme
Juri's Theme (not available until SSFIV comes out)

Viewtiful Joe's Theme
Viewtiful World
I wish I could remember some other classics from Viewtiful Joe, but it's been so long.

Cornered
Cornered 2002
Cornered 2004
Cornered - Apollo Justice
Steel Samurai
Theme of Turnabout Sisters
Godot~Fragrance of Dark Coffee (Perfect for the Animal Crossing stage)

I'm afraid I can't touch on Megaman than what's been said before.
 

lordvaati

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wel, I know that one of the VJ songs is a remix of a Phoenix Wright song(Classroom Trial), if that helps.
 

Serph

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I've never quite understood the "Mewtwo is light because he's hovering" thing. It shouldn't make any difference to his weight.

The darkness on his attacks was probably just related to Shadow Ball. I think it'd be pretty cool if they were instead tipped with a kind of transparent "distortion" effect to show that his psychic powers were extending beyond his hand.

As far as the use of tail goes...I'm okay with it for a few attacks, but would a character known for having such terrifying psychic power really resort to direct physical attacks that often? Things like bair and dtilt were fine, but I think they should be a bit more creative with the others.
 

Pieman0920

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So how about that there Smash Boards, sure isn't crashing every hour, right?

Anyways, I don't know what there isn't to get in regards to him being lighter when he's hovering. He's lifting himself almost completely off the ground with his psychic powers. He's canceling out the effects of gravity. He's lighter.

And he does use psychic attack ina great deal of his moves. Look at all three of his Smashes, his neutral air, standard combo, and most of his throws (his down throw uses his tail, but its pretty freaky how he just completely twists his back 180 degrees) though I suppose there is a lot of physical moves in there. Still that's to be expected, since this is friggen Smash. Characters need to get close in to attack. The fact that he doesn't throw a single regular punch or kick is creative enough as it is.

EDIT: Oh yeah lordvaati, what's the name of the VJ song?
 

ElPanandero

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Well If Mewtwo can alter his weight by canceling out gravity, why can't he hyper fous it to make himself super heavy. The fact that he can conrtrol his weight with his power makes even less sense.
 

Pieman0920

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Why does that make less sense? Mewtwo should theoretically be able to make himself heavier (at the cost of hovering I suppose. Why would you crush yourself down when you can float yourself up?) but he doesn't display that ability in Smash for the same reason that every other character doesn't display an ability that they should theoretically have, aka the movesets and presentations of characters are limited to certain constraints. And at the very least, Mewtwo has an excuse for his character portrayal. Bowser actually can jump much higher than Mario, but that's not the case in Smash.
 

Big-Cat

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Why does that make less sense? Mewtwo should theoretically be able to make himself heavier (at the cost of hovering I suppose. Why would you crush yourself down when you can float yourself up?)
Not to get knocked out so easily I suppose.

but he doesn't display that ability in Smash for the same reason that every other character doesn't display an ability that they should theoretically have, aka the movesets and presentations of characters are limited to certain constraints. And at the very least, Mewtwo has an excuse for his character portrayal. Bowser actually can jump much higher than Mario, but that's not the case in Smash.
Add a high jump feature to characters like Samus and Bowser and he could, in theory, jump much higher than Mario. Note though that he has to use a lot of effort to jump that high when he does it. Notice in that in the Paper Mario games, Bowser isn't a very high jumper when he does so on the fly, IIRC.

Though yes, there are constraints, but there is clearly not enough creativity going on. I've presented a few times of how Lucas and Ness, both primarily assist characters in their games, could have special moves that match their original sources instead of the cop-outs we got already.
 

Serph

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So how about that there Smash Boards, sure isn't crashing every hour, right?

Anyways, I don't know what there isn't to get in regards to him being lighter when he's hovering. He's lifting himself almost completely off the ground with his psychic powers. He's canceling out the effects of gravity. He's lighter.

And he does use psychic attack ina great deal of his moves. Look at all three of his Smashes, his neutral air, standard combo, and most of his throws (his down throw uses his tail, but its pretty freaky how he just completely twists his back 180 degrees) though I suppose there is a lot of physical moves in there. Still that's to be expected, since this is friggen Smash. Characters need to get close in to attack. The fact that he doesn't throw a single regular punch or kick is creative enough as it is.

EDIT: Oh yeah lordvaati, what's the name of the VJ song?
He may be lifting himself off the ground when running and jumping, but why would he keep it up when being launched? Kill the telekinesis and let gravity do its thing. Considering how large a target Mewtwo is I just felt it was a needless technicality.

The problem with the tail attacks is that they simply aren't "explosive" enough for a character of Mewtwo's power. Most of them look and sound extremely weak. Lucas is supposed to be a powerful character, and that fact is reflected even in his standard A moves.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have used the tail at all, just that it should be used less. I want to see more tilts and aerials that look as powerful as his smashes.

I also have no issues with his throws (although forward should be much stronger). I'd even go as far to say they're the most epic throws in Smash history.
 

ElPanandero

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He may be lifting himself off the ground when running and jumping, but why would he keep it up when being launched? Kill the telekinesis and let gravity do its thing. Considering how large a target Mewtwo is I just felt it was a needless technicality.

The problem with the tail attacks is that they simply aren't "explosive" enough for a character of Mewtwo's power. Most of them look and sound extremely weak. Lucas is supposed to be a powerful character, and that fact is reflected even in his standard A moves.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have used the tail at all, just that it should be used less. I want to see more tilts and aerials that look as powerful as his smashes.

I also have no issues with his throws (although forward should be much stronger). I'd even go as far to say they're the most epic throws in Smash history.
This.

10Char
 

Pieman0920

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Screwing around with his weight would have just been needlesly complicated, not to mention, somewhat unbalanced (Though I guess Mewtwo could have used the help) You kind of have to pick one or the other really, and they went with the light, floating approach, which is probably a better representation of the character anyways.

As for the tail attacks, this is seriously just nit picking for no good reason. In most cases he uses psychic powers in conjunction with the tail swipes, which is pretty much the same as what Lucas does. It honestly doesn't make that much sense to me that you can be okay with his moveset's portrayal of a psychic but not Mewtwo's. Heck, the comment about having tilts and air attacks looking like Smashes is pretty much a no go as it is, since generally Smash attacks are meant to be powerful (looking) and for Mewtwo they are (As I said, this applies to looks)
 

Big-Cat

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Screwing around with his weight would have just been needlesly complicated, not to mention, somewhat unbalanced (Though I guess Mewtwo could have used the help) You kind of have to pick one or the other really, and they went with the light, floating approach, which is probably a better representation of the character anyways.
We've already been shown that light and floaty is a bad combination with both Zelda and Mewtwo. Besides, how the hell would increasing his weight complicate things? It's not like Mewtwo is making himself lighter as he floats so his weight is still the same. It's not a good representation of his character either. It's not like he's the size of Mew which would be where it'd make sense. He's 270 pounds. He should weigh quite a bit.

As for the tail attacks, this is seriously just nit picking for no good reason. In most cases he uses psychic powers in conjunction with the tail swipes, which is pretty much the same as what Lucas does. It honestly doesn't make that much sense to me that you can be okay with his moveset's portrayal of a psychic but not Mewtwo's. Heck, the comment about having tilts and air attacks looking like Smashes is pretty much a no go as it is, since generally Smash attacks are meant to be powerful (looking) and for Mewtwo they are (As I said, this applies to looks)
At least Lucas' tilts and such actually look impressive, like he looks worth playing. Mewtwo's don't look all that enticing.

Anyway, I'll post up those movesets, but this time completely different from the past ones.

Ness strikes me as a character that wants the opponent within his range due to his PK Fire and his small size. We've also seen that he's good with some close range moves like his FAir. Here's a special moveset that compliments his normals:

B: PK Flash
Pretty much the same as before, but better control so it has the freedom of Din's Fire. Low damage, but significant hitstun.
Side B: PK Rockin
The same as PK Fire, just a different look.
Up B: PK Teleport
Works like Mewtwo's teleport for the first part of the attack. However, the second part functions like a slingshot. For example, if you PK Teleport Ness to the right, he'll come out from the right launching himself towards the opposite direction. This attack, as to be expected, is not as strong as PK Thunder Cannon, but still works as a solid combo finisher.
Down B: PK Magnet
Unlike its current use as a projectile absorber, this move acts more like a magnet. When using this move, Ness can pull in non-blocking opponents to him from both front and behind, but this applies to characters on the ground and he cannot pull in characters that are in PK Rockin so as to prevent an infinite. When the move is complete, Ness has a couple of seconds to follow it up with another move, particularly PK Rockin.

Final Smash: PK Rockin Omega
Ness creates a large explosion of PK Rockin that can kill very easily at 70%+

Lucas, unlike Ness, doesn't want the fight brought to him. He would rather get into the fight himself when the opponent's off guarded.

B: Salt Water Gun
A chargeable projectile, this move has no knockback, but the salt in the gun leaves the opponent with hitstun. If the move is done in the right place at the right time, this move lets Lucas get in and start attacking.
Side B: PK Love
Like Ness' PK Rockin, this move is just a different look for Lucas' PK Fire. This used to keep the opponent away from Lucas.
Up B: Hinawa's Pigeons
Hinawa's mesenger pigeons raise Lucas up in a similar fashion to Snake's Cypher
Down B: PK Ground
Remember C. Viper from that one video I posted a while back? Basically that. Used as a combo set up.

Final Smash: PK Love Omega
Pretty much Ryu's Hadouken related Supers and Ultra. This move hits its opponent multiple times before a final, high knockback hit.

What do you guys think?
 

Serph

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As for the tail attacks, this is seriously just nit picking for no good reason. In most cases he uses psychic powers in conjunction with the tail swipes, which is pretty much the same as what Lucas does. It honestly doesn't make that much sense to me that you can be okay with his moveset's portrayal of a psychic but not Mewtwo's. Heck, the comment about having tilts and air attacks looking like Smashes is pretty much a no go as it is, since generally Smash attacks are meant to be powerful (looking) and for Mewtwo they are (As I said, this applies to looks)
Again, they just don't look powerful enough for a character as strong as Mewtwo, and are even accompanied by very weak-sounding effects. Here we have a character who uses his power with such ease that he glides around the battlefield and doesn't even handle items directly, yet the best he can do with his tilts and 3/5 aerials is whip his tail around a bit?
 

augustoflores

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i think ness' move change is good...
and as for mewtwo...
i think it would be a good idea to give him a float ability like peach or give him a glide ability faster than meta-knight after a 1 second start glide then he gets to his full speed. i dislike disable so i am giving him psycho blast... play King of Fighters XI and fight the final boss, he will do a pink flash attack when you run close to him, multiple hits... i will make hypnosis a longer reach, by one more sparkle star thingy.
Shadowball is rapid firable like megaman's megabuster.

what do you think? (you bunch of *******s, kidding :p)
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Man, you people and your unnecessary character changes.

If you guys really want Mewtwo's tail attacks to seem stronger/more psychic, just add sparkles or whatever. Works for other characters at least.
 

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Well, Toise, why don't you present some necessary character changes? Come to think of it, when was the last time you presented an idea for a character or gameplay change and not criticizing other people's ideas or discussing potential new characters?

As for sparkles and whatnot, it still doesn't change that Mewtwo doesn't have all that enticing of a moveset, to me at least.
 

Shorts

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Mewtwo's moveset in general was boring, both to look at and to play as. Unless they plan to rejuvinate mewtwos true monster power supply and give him the moves he deserves i definitely say keep him out.

Personally I dont see any characters that need a drastic moveset change, however i think some need little changes here and there. Lucas could get some of his own moves, and Wolf could scrap that crappier version of Fox and falcos dash move. Truely though, Ganondorf needs to get new moves. Sakurai, just own up to the fact that you missed a "clone character" and fix him in ssb4.
 

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He is not a clone. He plays nothing at all like Falcon, at all, period. Everyone needs to stopin complaining about how out of chaarcters and Evil Jacked Wizrd being magical and jacked is. here isn't anything wrong with what he does.
 

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I still say giving him another moveset he can switch in and out of (that uses a trident for you, Shino) would be the thing to satisfy everyone. Aside from him sucking beyond redemption in vBrawl, I'm okay with his current moveset, but would still like to see another moveset available as well.

Heck, maybe it was planned for all we know considering he has his sword taunt, but let's not get into theories again.
 

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Well I guess making second moveset would be OK, but creating a unique moveset could be used to make an entirely new character. It's always better to make new things than to fix ones that aren't broken.
 

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I see where you're coming from. Still, it would be a good addition as people have been wanting this/him using his sword for quite some time. It's not like it's something rarely brought up like the PK moves for Ness and Lucas, although that one might have to do with the small MOTHER fanbase in the West..
 

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Hey, go ahead, take your time. I have a dentist and doctor's appointment Thursday and Friday and it's Spring Break so I'm just taking it easy.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Well, Toise, why don't you present some necessary character changes? Come to think of it, when was the last time you presented an idea for a character or gameplay change and not criticizing other people's ideas or discussing potential new characters?

As for sparkles and whatnot, it still doesn't change that Mewtwo doesn't have all that enticing of a moveset, to me at least.
What does it matter if I don't present any changes myself? And I never post necessary character changes because I feel there aren't any. Emphasis on necessary.

You like coming up with radical changes that few others find interesting. You also usually ask for opinions on them, so what's the problem with me criticizing them again?


As for Mewtwo, increasing the power of his tail attacks and giving them a more impressive animation/sound should be enough of a "fix" for his standard attacks. Compare Falcon's stomp to Ganon's, or even Link's sword hits to Ike's for just the sounds.
 

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What does it matter if I don't present any changes myself? And I never post necessary character changes because I feel there aren't any. Emphasis on necessary.

You like coming up with radical changes that few others find interesting. You also usually ask for opinions on them, so what's the problem with me criticizing them again?
There's nothing wrong with criticizing my ideas. In fact, I appreciate any criticism. It should help once I get to my Videogame Design class when I'm a senior.

Still, I feel that if you're to be going about critiquing ideas, you should present your own ideas be it that they are additions, removals, returns, or expansions that enhance the overall gameplay experience. It makes for a more enjoyable discussion instead of one person presenting one thing and expecting reception and doing this ad infinitum.

Remember the discussions we had when you or I presented Sirlin articles? Those are the kind of discussions I'd like to have.
 

Starphoenix

How Long Have I Been Asleep?
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I see where you're coming from. Still, it would be a good addition as people have been wanting this/him using his sword for quite some time. It's not like it's something rarely brought up like the PK moves for Ness and Lucas, although that one might have to do with the small MOTHER fanbase in the West..
I still do not understand what was so difficult in making PK Rockin' Ness' Final Smash? Instead we get PK Starstorm and some half-baked explanation on how Poo taught him to develop the power. Heck, THEY aren't even convinced of their own story!

This attack appeared in the MOTHER series, but it was Poo, not Ness, who wielded it. Perhaps Poo taught Ness the secret of the attack for use in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.
Really Sakurai?
 

Serph

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As for Mewtwo, increasing the power of his tail attacks and giving them a more impressive animation/sound should be enough of a "fix" for his standard attacks. Compare Falcon's stomp to Ganon's, or even Link's sword hits to Ike's for just the sounds.
The power and effects are pretty much spot on for those sort of attacks, though. That's the point. There's nothing wrong with the way the tail attacks were handled - there's just too many of them.

As for Ganondorf...I think it's too late to make wholesale changes now. The fact that he was ever made a clone in the first place is a disgrace, but having not fully "decloned" him for Brawl Sakurai has shown that he has no interest in giving him a completely unique moveset. We should maybe expect one or two new A moves or animation tweaks, but nothing more.
 
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