[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

Logic is boring. Watch, the newcomers in the next game are going to be

Toad
Dry Bones
Toadette
Tingle
Tom Nook
Nintendog
Lip
Caterpie
Haruka Amami
Miku Hatsune
Megaman

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Shortie

Even if Gold and his 2nd gen starters replace Red and his 1st gen starters in SSB4, you can always go back to Brawl if you want to play as Charizard again. This is one of the reasons why I am always saying "just remove Jigglypuff and let another Pokemon play", even if she is finally out, I could always go back to Brawl if I wanted to play as her again. That's why I don't mind removing/replacing characters. I really don't give a crap about the "O12" thing for the sake of the "O12".

 

[Big-Cat]

Big flaw in your logic: All Smash Bros. games have played differently (for better or worse). In the case of SSB4, some people might not even want to touch Brawl considering how divisive it is. Your idea is that the Smash games are like the yearly Madden titles (I think I'm over exaggerating here) when we all know that's not true.

People didn't go back to Melee because Mewtwo/Roy/whoever were in it. They went back because they didn't like Brawl.

 

[yoichX]

Well... people sent a pedtion to nintendo and it had all these fan drawing signtures ect. Then after awhile nintendo released some mother thing im guessing theres many fans for the super smash bros. series so what if we do the same! You never know inless you try!

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I really don't think any of the O12 will be removed. They are a source of nostalgia for Smashers who have been around from the beginning, and many smashers will actually appreciate that. I actually never liked Jigglypuff, but seeing her return is sort of a reminder that this is still the same game I've enjoyed for so many years, just beefed up a little bit. You know what I'm saying? It's that sense of nostalgia. Plus, she's first-gen, everyone's favorite generation.

The O12 have missed their chance of being cut. If they would have been cut, it would have been done in Melee (and possibly Brawl). Ness was nearly replaced by Lucas, but he remained. He was brought back in Brawl along with Lucas, and now the O12 is a nostalgic staple in the series.

I don't think any of them will EVER be cut.

Well... people sent a pedtion to nintendo and it had all these fan drawing signtures ect. Then after awhile nintendo released some mother thing im guessing theres many fans for the super smash bros. series so what if we do the same! You never know inless you try!

No need to rush Nintendo. Let Sakurai take his time. A new Smash will come out in the future, I'm almost 100% sure of it. We don't need to speed it up, it'll be better if we didn't.

 

[Shorts]

exactly, the last thing ssb needs is to be rushed!

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

...
And, what's so wrong with that?

Because Sakurai thinks in terms of actual movesets he has to design rather than the number of little faces on the character select screen that slot theories run on. You'd figure people would realize that when A) he always says 26 or 39 in regards to roster sizes and NEVER 25 or 35, and B) character select screens can be made in minutes, the actual characters take months.

Nevermind the fact that most people who believe in it tend to stretch what counts as a slot to fit their own ideas. It seems transformations only count when they're convenient. Same deal with DK/Wario/Yoshi characters counting as Mario characters (which isn't quite as ridiculous for Yoshi, but you're living in 1993 if you think DK and Wario count).

Even more ******** is the idea that the Zelda series is on par with Mario or Pokemon in any of the "factors" people assume go into series earning precious "slots." Or Star Fox compared to DK, Mother compared to F-Zero, etc.


Anyway, the main thing is that Sakurai doesn't have caps and quotas that limit how he picks characters. If he wants eight Pokemon and four Mario characters, he'll do it. He's not someone who forces characters in or out for the sake of symmetry.

 

[Shorts]

Because Sakurai thinks in terms of actual movesets he has to design rather than the number of little faces on the character select screen that slot theories run on. You'd figure people would realize that when A) he always says 26 or 39 in regards to roster sizes and NEVER 25 or 35, and B) character select screens can be made in minutes, the actual characters take months.

Nevermind the fact that most people who believe in it tend to stretch what counts as a slot to fit their own ideas. It seems transformations only count when they're convenient. Same deal with DK/Wario/Yoshi characters counting as Mario characters (which isn't quite as ridiculous for Yoshi, but you're living in 1993 if you think DK and Wario count).

Even more ******** is the idea that the Zelda series is on par with Mario or Pokemon in any of the "factors" people assume go into series earning precious "slots." Or Star Fox compared to DK, Mother compared to F-Zero, etc.


Anyway, the main thing is that Sakurai doesn't have caps and quotas that limit how he picks characters. If he wants eight Pokemon and four Mario characters, he'll do it. He's not someone who forces characters in or out for the sake of symmetry.

Well toise, if nintendo says they want 5 mario, 5 loz and 5 pkmn, sakurai does it! or he is as good as gone. Do you think sakurai is rude enough to favor one company over others? No, he isnt. if he gave mario 4 slots and pkmn 8 im sure nintendo would step in. After all nintendo stepped in and added sonic when sakurai wasnt even gonna add him in the first place.

Its simple math toise, nintendo>sakurai

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Except that won't happen because:

1. Nintendo has complete faith in Sakurai's decisions, ESPECIALLY regarding characters. Iwata basically said "Snake and Sonic are okay because Sakurai is cool with it."
2. They didn't care that there were 6 (almost 7) Pokemon to 4 Mario characters in Brawl. Turns out Nintendo doesn't obsess over characters like the fans do, they've got to deal with all the other content in the game as well.


And I don't know why people think Nintendo "stepped in" and added Sonic, considering it was Sakurai's idea to have 3rd party characters and Sega was responsible for asking Sakurai about him.

 

[SmashChu]

exactly, the last thing ssb needs is to be rushed!

Being rushed isn't a bad thing because of art from adversity. I do think that you do a better job when you have fewer resources and time. Had Sakurai had infinitely more time, he might have made bad modes or added uninteresting characters.

 

[Shorts]

Except that won't happen because:

1. Nintendo has complete faith in Sakurai's decisions, ESPECIALLY regarding characters. Iwata basically said "Snake and Sonic are okay because Sakurai is cool with it."
2. They didn't care that there were 6 (almost 7) Pokemon to 4 Mario characters in Brawl. Turns out Nintendo doesn't obsess over characters like the fans do, they've got to deal with all the other content in the game as well.


And I don't know why people think Nintendo "stepped in" and added Sonic, considering it was Sakurai's idea to have 3rd party characters and Sega was responsible for asking Sakurai about him.

Well who was it then? Nintendo or Sakurai?

But im sure nintendo would not play favorites to the extent were speaking of. And if nintendo doesnt by chance like something sakurai is doing, im sure they would keep him in check.

@ Smashchu, maybe if Sakurai wasnt rushed we might actually have a REAL ganondorf, have toon link be not soo much a clone of link. And maybe, JUST maybe we would have a few more characters?
True, time is money, and i have written some of my best papers in one night. BUT give me a week and ill have that paper the picture perfect essay!

 

[yoichX]

Right now i don't think there are any ideas for ssb4 so sending a pedtion to say "hey were your fans can't wait for more!" Our something mabey he dosen't even know people our waiting for the next game!

 

[Big-Cat]

Being rushed isn't a bad thing because of art from adversity. I do think that you do a better job when you have fewer resources and time. Had Sakurai had infinitely more time, he might have made bad modes or added uninteresting characters.

Subspace Emissary (in hindsight), Chronicle, and Masterpieces say hi.

As you said, a time limit can prevent crappy ideas from coming into fruition, but it can prevent good ones and other aspects important to the game like balancing and glitch testing.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Subspace Emissary (in hindsight)

No SSE is awful; You can put hours and hours of work into it and it can still stink. Heck, we don't even know how much work Sakurai put into chronicles and masterpieces.

Anyways for my opinion I've basically reduced my posting in this thread because this thread has turned into running around in circles. I come in and you guys are debating pokemon...

again

And you know what? I suggest instead we start doing something actually different If we're going to keep discussing characters. Why not an in-depth analysis on each series? Why not instead of debating the characters themselves, we debate what matters for them to get a "Slot"? Why not debate over how to make the roster more broad over series?

There's so much else we could be doing instead of pointing out the dead obvious 700 times because someone disagrees/is confused. Granted what I said is a huge overstretchment, but why not something else with characters? There's some topics to start with. Go.

crazy character list

Add Nack the Weasel in it. Time to get obscure!

 

[Shorts]

@thirdkoopa -off subject but is your name based off the "koopa kids" from the mario party series?

okay, if any series is deserving of another "slot" it F-Zero, granted im not the hugest fan of f-Zero but captain falcon has smashed long enough for a second slot.

Now, what about yoshi? His series getting another slot is likely to me, and could bring our next wtf character.

 

[ElPanandero]

@Trekoops

I highly doubt we'll mange to instill any sort of order into this place, I'm all for it, but I doubt it will happen (espically when a random non regular posts something completely random and/or stupid that sends everyone into a downspiral[Ridely iz t000 BigZ])

 

[Arcadenik]

Subspace Emissary (in hindsight), Chronicle, and Masterpieces say hi.

As you said, a time limit can prevent crappy ideas from coming into fruition, but it can prevent good ones and other aspects important to the game like balancing and glitch testing.

Ironic, isn't it? You love Melee and it was rushed. You hate Brawl and it was not rushed (it was even delayed twice).

 

[Arcadenik]

Because Sakurai thinks in terms of actual movesets he has to design rather than the number of little faces on the character select screen that slot theories run on. You'd figure people would realize that when A) he always says 26 or 39 in regards to roster sizes and NEVER 25 or 35, and B) character select screens can be made in minutes, the actual characters take months.

Nevermind the fact that most people who believe in it tend to stretch what counts as a slot to fit their own ideas. It seems transformations only count when they're convenient. Same deal with DK/Wario/Yoshi characters counting as Mario characters (which isn't quite as ridiculous for Yoshi, but you're living in 1993 if you think DK and Wario count).

Even more ******** is the idea that the Zelda series is on par with Mario or Pokemon in any of the "factors" people assume go into series earning precious "slots." Or Star Fox compared to DK, Mother compared to F-Zero, etc.


Anyway, the main thing is that Sakurai doesn't have caps and quotas that limit how he picks characters. If he wants eight Pokemon and four Mario characters, he'll do it. He's not someone who forces characters in or out for the sake of symmetry.

Let us assume that Sakurai is going to put in 8 Pokemon characters and 4 Mario characters... if he cares about slots, would he do it like this?

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser

5. Pikachu
6. Red (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
7. Gold (Chikorita, Quilava, Feraligatr)
8. 5th gen Pokemon

If he doesn't care about slots, would he do it like this?

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser

5. Pikachu
6. Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
7. Lucario
8. Jigglypuff
9. Mewtwo
10. 5th gen Pokemon

 

[Big-Cat]

Ironic, isn't it? You love Melee and it was rushed. You hate Brawl and it was not rushed (it was even delayed twice).

Who said I love Melee over Brawl? They both have their flaws. Besides, Melee was a fluke and everyone knows it.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Arcadenik: If you're a slot believer, it could be anything like this:


Mario....Luigi...Peach..Bowser
Pikachu..Red(3)..Jiggs..Lucario
________________________________________

Mario....Luigi...Peach..Bowser
Pikachu..Red(3)..Jiggs..Gold(3)
________________________________________

Mario....Luigi...Peach..Bowser...Yoshi
Pikachu..Red(3)..Jiggs..Gold(3)..Lucario
________________________________________

Mario....Luigi.....Peach....Bowser
Yoshi....Wario
Pikachu..Squirtle..Ivysaur..Charizard
Jiggs....Lucario
________________________________________

Mario....Luigi.....Peach....Bowser
Yoshi....Wario.....DK.......Diddy
Pikachu..Squirtle..Ivysaur..Charizard
Jiggs....Lucario...Mewtwo...Pichu


...and so on. Basically, any "pattern" can be assembled if you change the meaning of what defines a slot for Series A and Series B. Of course that's largely limited to defining transformations and spinoff characters, but it's been used for clones too (mostly to explain Melee or Wolf). And then they have to decide on some arbitrary number for how many slots each series gets.

Of course the main problem is that nobody agrees with anyone else's assessment. That and sometimes you get people with some horrible inconsistencies ("PT is one, but Zelda and Samus are two each"). Or they constantly change their definitions, whatever works to fit their current post.



Not caring about slots would indeed be your second list. There's a very clear difference in Pokemon vs. Mario there, but if we were to assign some sort of "value" for the two series outside of the context of Smash, no one would rate Mario a 4 to Pokemon's 6 or 8. One would then assume it's the characters themselves that Sakurai is interested in rather than the series they hail from (although he has admitted that he tries to avoid overdoing the more popular series, there's no specific limit). That'd explain all the Star Fox.

I should mention that my first response was towards the assumption that Sakurai is REQUIRED to choose between Mewtwo, Lucario, and a Gen 5 (or 6!) for the next game. He has no obligations or restrictions, he can add all three of them if he wants. Or none of them, whichever. And it has no bearing on whether or not characters like Toad or Bowser Jr. get in the game either way.

 

[Pieman0920]

I never quite understand why people always put the Chronicle and Masterpieces as things that Sakurai could have been using his time better on...wait, that sentence is weird.

The point is, both of those modes probably had very little effort put into them because of what they were, so while you could chalk them up as pointless modes, the fact is, is if they were not added in, there wouldn't have been anything that would have hypothetically replaced them. Perhaps if the team that worked on Brawl didn't put in SSE, we could have a new character or two, but the same can't be said with the Chronicle or Masterpieces, even for a single stage, I bet.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not caring about slots would indeed be your second list. There's a very clear difference in Pokemon vs. Mario there, but if we were to assign some sort of "value" for the two series outside of the context of Smash, no one would rate Mario a 4 to Pokemon's 6 or 8. One would then assume it's the characters themselves that Sakurai is interested in rather than the series they hail from (although he has admitted that he tries to avoid overdoing the more popular series, there's no specific limit). That'd explain all the Star Fox.

This. A thousand times this.

I never quite understand why people always put the Chronicle and Masterpieces as things that Sakurai could have been using his time better on...wait, that sentence is weird.

The point is, both of those modes probably had very little effort put into them because of what they were, so while you could chalk them up as pointless modes, the fact is, is if they were not added in, there wouldn't have been anything that would have hypothetically replaced them. Perhaps if the team that worked on Brawl didn't put in SSE, we could have a new character or two, but the same can't be said with the Chronicle or Masterpieces, even for a single stage, I bet.

You can tell that they put significant time in the SSE what with Sakurai wanting a larger single player (which could've been done with less work had he put in rankings and whatnot). The fact that the game is double layered just for the cutscenes could be considered evidence to this. I think we would've gotten more than just one or two characters. Heck, we might not have gotten more characters. It's not just about the characters, you know.

Like I said before, the time spent working on those modes, even the two you just mentioned, could be used to fix the subtle aspects of the game. It's not like characters are just magically balanced and glitchless.

 

[DekuBoy]

If Jiggs is out the fan backlash would be monumental. Imagine Mewtwo but times 100. I just want interesting characters to play as, the more obscure the better.

 

[Pieman0920]

Like I said before, the time spent working on those modes, even the two you just mentioned, could be used to fix the subtle aspects of the game. It's not like characters are just magically balanced and glitchless.

How much time do you actually think Chronicles or those demos actually took? SSE aside, do you honestly think anything meaningful could have actually been accomplished in whatever amount of time those things took to be added in?

 

[DekuBoy]

Well, the masterpieces are just useless. No one uses them.

 

[Pieman0920]

I'm not saying they aren't, but the amount of time put into them was probably incredibly small, and thus there's really not much point in complaining that the time could have been used for something different.

 

[yoichX]

More Charcters! (Not in any Order)
Claus
Porkey
Pokemon Trainer 2
Glactic Pokemon Trainer
Roy
Mewtwo
Pichu
Dr. Mario
Paper Mario
Paper Peach
Paper Luigi
Paper Bowser
Toon Zelda
Kunckles
Tails
Shadow
Sliver
Celbi??
More Fire embral...
Boo
Birdo
Toon Gandorf??
More Metal Gear..

 

[rockem7]

More Charcters! (Not in any Order)
Claus
Porkey
Pokemon Trainer 2
Glactic Pokemon Trainer
Roy
Mewtwo
Pichu
Dr. Mario
Paper Mario
Paper Peach
Paper Luigi
Paper Bowser
Toon Zelda
Kunckles
Tails
Shadow
Sliver
Celbi??
More Fire embral...
Boo
Birdo
Toon Gandorf??
More Metal Gear..

Chances are, there won't be two more pokemon trainers thrown in. Also, I don't think they'd double the amount of Mario reps and add all of the paper forms. And...I know there are a lot of people who want them, but there most likely won't be another Sonic rep. If so, maybe one. And I think if Celebi would have made it in, he would have been in Melee. The most likely pokemon rep to make it in would be the new 5th gen guy everyone is talking about.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

More Charcters! (Not in any Order)
Claus
Porkey
Pokemon Trainer 2
Glactic Pokemon Trainer
Roy
Mewtwo
Pichu
Dr. Mario
Paper Mario
Paper Peach
Paper Luigi
Paper Bowser
Toon Zelda
Kunckles
Tails
Shadow
Sliver
Celbi??
More Fire embral...
Boo
Birdo
Toon Gandorf??
More Metal Gear..

Uh oh, we've got another case of Sonic fanboyism and Mario over-representation! I don't think these are ever going to end...


-First of all, the chances of a new MOTHER (EarthBound) rep is extremely low, if there even is one. The series is dead, and there really is no hope for a comeback, and therefore, no hope for anymore representation.

-Woah, slow down on the Pokemon. If we get another Pokemon Trainer, it will most definitely replace the current one. Chances of Mewtwo returning is rather unlikely, while Pichu's chances are zip. If Celebi would have gotten in, it would have been in Melee. and the almost guaranteed new rep is the face of the fifth-generation, which has yet to be revealed.

-Oooooh boy we've got ourselves quite a Paper Mario fan here! Seriously, why would paper versions of the characters appear in the game along side the real versions, plus characters with no chance like Birdo and Boo? Dr. Mario most definitely will not return either.

-Toon Ganondorf? No...

-We will most likely see more Fire Emblem, but sorry, not Roy...

-OKAY PEOPLE, HERE IS TH THING ABOUT THIRD PARTIES! Don't expect more than one rep for each third-party series. While we have seen Third-Party characters, this remains a Nintendo game, and adding more Third parties from the same series just takes up space that could be used by actual Nintendo stars that deserve a spot. No Tails, or Knuckles, or Silver or Shaodw or Gray Fox or anybody. It won't happen. There is a chance of seeing a new Third-party series from an un-represented third-party developer though. This spot will most likely go to Megaman from CAPCOM as he is recognizable, immensely popular, and his creator has stated that he would willingly allow him to be put into a Smash game. I can find the proof if anybody seriously needs it, which I doubt.



I honestly don't see a sinlge logical character on that list. Hope I have shed some light though.

 

[yoichX]

Well... im not a fan boy i don't even know that much about other games other then!
Zelda
Mario
Kirby
Earthbound...(Kinda)
Pokemon

Second there were just ideas......

Third !
Somebody from no more heros wants to put travis in the game!

As for toon gandorf.... HE WOULD PWN! (Even though i wouldn't play him)

Yes Mother is dead but..... It dosen't mean there can't be any more charcters!

Yes it would be wired if paper mario people came in... but why not???

More Charcters!
Kunckle Joe
Walugi
Bowser Jr

 

[rockem7]

I personally would like to see Bowser Jr., but other than that, I don't think the other two would make it in. And yeah, Megaman is the most likely Third Party Rep for SSB4. Other than that, there won't be many/any more third parties added in. The next Fire Emblem Rep is likely to be any new lord that comes in between now and the release of the game, or a lord that has his/her popularity shoot up due to a remake.

 

[Shorts]

I personally would like to see Bowser Jr., but other than that, I don't think the other two would make it in. And yeah, Megaman is the most likely Third Party Rep for SSB4. Other than that, there won't be many/any more third parties added in. The next Fire Emblem Rep is likely to be any new lord that comes in between now and the release of the game, or a lord that has his/her popularity shoot up due to a remake.

I have a feeling we will see more than just one third party character, its free advertisement, possibly new fans coming into the third parties series and im sure SEGA and Konami arent the only companies who have noticed ssb has a MASSIVE and obsessive fan base. I expect 2-3.
Megaman
Travis Touchdown
Bomberman

And YES, bomberman does plenty more than just throw bombs. He was in a fighting/cross-over game in japan called dream mix! World fighters. He has an array of bombs, multiple spin-off games that could be rerfrenced, and has melee moves just like the rest of the smashers. And hes crossed over with wario already, Bomber for ssb4 ^.^

 

[yoichX]

Cool! Bomber!!

 

[Pieman0920]

Ew, I'd really rather not have Bomber Man. Plus, he's technically a Konami character isn't he? If we're going to get another Konami character, make it Simon Belmont.

 

[yoichX]

so there will be more third parties?

 

[Gallowglass]

Well... im not a fan boy i don't even know that much about other games other then!
Zelda
Mario
Kirby
Earthbound...(Kinda)
Pokemon

Second there were just ideas......

Third !
Somebody from no more heros wants to put travis in the game!

As for toon gandorf.... HE WOULD PWN! (Even though i wouldn't play him)

Yes Mother is dead but..... It dosen't mean there can't be any more charcters!

Yes it would be wired if paper mario people came in... but why not???

More Charcters!
Kunckle Joe
Walugi
Bowser Jr

Okay a few corrections.

Travis Touchdown? Not only is he another sword swinger but all his moves were pretty much blood and gore (or ended that way). If any sword weilder is going to be put in it's Samurai Goroh.

Toon Ganondorf is dead. The audtopsy read he died from a stab to the face and drowned soon after.

Mother isn't big enough franchise to have more characters. I'm surprise Lucas and Ness got in.


On another note if we have
Zelda
Pit
Megaman
and Simon Belmont

Why don't we just put Captain N the Gamemaster and have the whole team?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Ew, I'd really rather not have Bomber Man. Plus, he's technically a Konami character isn't he? If we're going to get another Konami character, make it Simon Belmont.

This. Not because Simon is way cooler than Bomberman, but because it's pretty unlikely that Konami would push for something from one of their subsidiaries over their other famous character-based series.

 

[Shorts]

Ew, I'd really rather not have Bomber Man. Plus, he's technically a Konami character isn't he? If we're going to get another Konami character, make it Simon Belmont.

I just read that, yeah Hudson is owned by konami, still the white bomber isnt out of the realm of possability. Hudson makes the mario party games, not konami, and on the wiki pags for bomberman, it says nothing about konami. Suggesting hes 100% hudson, making him not another konami rep. i mean for christ sake if you go to hudsons website HES ON THE ENTRANCE SCREEN! a big bomber! He has a chance, and hes my fave, im a die hard fan i guess

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@thirdkoopa -off subject but is your name based off the "koopa kids" from the mario party series?

Nope, It's actually from "Koops" But instead of Thirdkoops, I decided to just put Koopa in there. The third has nothing to do with anything really; I just thought it'd be neat and I grew on it as an internet name.

slot earning theory

Focus on the characters themselves, not the pretty number to the series. However Yoshi and F-Zero could very well have new characters.

@Trekoops

I highly doubt we'll mange to instill any sort of order into this place, I'm all for it, but I doubt it will happen (espically when a random non regular posts something completely random and/or stupid that sends everyone into a downspiral[Ridely iz t000 BigZ])

For a second I thought this was Shino but whatever.

Anyways It's not for order but rather not running around in the same stupid circles all the time; I'd be posting here a lot more If that happened. I mean If more people are with us I'd be very glad to help out this thread kinda like I use to (Oh fun)

I honestly don't see a sinlge logical character on that list. Hope I have shed some light though.

Claus, Pokey, Roy, and Mewtwo are very logical choices to there perspective series in terms of importance, regardless of chances (Which the debates can go on for hours) To say they aren't would be ridiculous.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Koops: Bored? Go write your thoughts on the chances for the following characters:

Takamaru
Andy (or someone else from Nintendo Wars)
Chibi-Robo
Starfy
Mii
Wiibo
The best Final Fantasy character ever:

Spoiler

Galuf!