[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Paper Mario Master]

All I know is that I like Brawl far more compared to Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

With Toon Link, and especially with the Mario characters, I like Brawl's art style better, especially given that there can only be one graphics engine. Cel-shaded Link would look very akward, and to represent him properly, you'd have to get a whole different graphic system just for him. And I seriously think you are on the verge of nitpicking when it comes to the added details with the Mario characters, along with the fact that these parts could be given their proper movements in a beefed up system.

Care to explain why we have trophies from Wind Waker complete with cel-shading intact? Why we have trophies that are rips from other games with different graphics styles? From what I can tell, you can have more than artystle in the game. The biggest problem with this is that mix mashes don't always work well which is why Sakurai went for one style. If anything, SSB4 needs a better artstyle. Something like it's handled in the Sonic and KH games would be good references as Scooby has mentioned. Finally, every series would have to have different artstyles if we went the other route. Don't tell me that Twlight Princess and SMG have similar artstyles.

Now for those Mario characters. At the very most, they could've just kept the simple design for Peach in her games. There's a lot more work involved in animating a dress than overalls.

All I know is that I like Brawl far more compared to Melee.

How so?

 

[Pieman0920]

Care to explain why we have trophies from Wind Waker complete with cel-shading intact? Why we have trophies that are rips from other games with different graphics styles? From what I can tell, you can have more than artystle in the game. The biggest problem with this is that mix mashes don't always work well which is why Sakurai went for one style. If anything, SSB4 needs a better artstyle. Something like it's handled in the Sonic and KH games would be good references as Scooby has mentioned. Finally, every series would have to have different artstyles if we went the other route. Don't tell me that Twlight Princess and SMG have similar artstyles.

Now for those Mario characters. At the very most, they could've just kept the simple design for Peach in her games. There's a lot more work involved in animating a dress than overalls.

Hmm, looking into the process of Cel-Shading, I'll take back what I'm saying for the most part, but the models from the WW games really were simply ripped straight from the game. Still, I think the whole artstyle thing is something that just a few people, such as yourself, have a real problem with. Melee and Brawl's style works well for what it is, and I quite frankly fail to comprehend how a KH or Sonic style would really change it. If its brighter colors you want, then that's that, but trying to revert everyone back to exactly how they look in their original apperances isn't always the best thing to go with. Honestly, all the Mario characters look a lot better in Brawl, and even Melee, than they do in their NSMBWii artwork, though I guess some of the colors could be touched up if needed.

And as I said before, they will almost certainly have a more powerful system for SSB4 so they can get your dress details down, though I still think that's a very nit picky thing, especially when the alternative is to pretty much dumb it down.

 

[SmashChu]

Look, if you want to play with the big boys, you better come prepared, or at least be prepared knowing you're going to get your butt kicked due to inexperience. Unfortunately, not a lot of people realize this. In this case, don't go to a tournament expecting to win when you have people who know the game better than you are there.

You missed the point. The point was that Competitive players drive away the noncompetitive ones rather then bring them in. These players are too good and it prevents others from having fun. They don't need experience. They just want to play a **** game.

As for decreasing the gap, why does this remind me of socialism? The thing you want to focus on is the initial learning curve where you learn the basic controls. After that, you're on your own to find out the applications of every tool you have and the exploitations for them as well.
In my experience with SF and BlazBlue, the learning curves at the beginning weren't all that huge, new to me, but not huge. Then there's remembering particular combos and move applications. The same goes for Smash.

People don't dedicate themselves to a game.

I hate how your advocating learning curves. Getting into the game should be seamless, but if we are here talking about learning curves, then the experience is not seamless.

Also, BlazBlue and Street Fighter are examples of what NOT to do. They are not only Red Ocean games, but are also games that do poorly. Not shimmering examples of what games should be.

 

[Big-Cat]

You missed the point. The point was that Competitive players drive away the noncompetitive ones rather then bring them in. These players are too good and it prevents others from having fun. They don't need experience. They just want to play a **** game.

No, you missed the point. The noncompetitive players and new players should not tread into territory where they'll get slaughtered. Let the competitives play amongst themselves, let the others play amongst themselves. It's as simple as that. No one's forcing one to play the other.

People don't dedicate themselves to a game.

I hate how your advocating learning curves. Getting into the game should be seamless, but if we are here talking about learning curves, then the experience is not seamless.

Also, BlazBlue and Street Fighter are examples of what NOT to do. They are not only Red Ocean games, but are also games that do poorly. Not shimmering examples of what games should be.

Do you realize that learning curves are existent in EVERYTHING? There's no such thing as no learning curve. When you started to play Smash, there was a learning curve. When you learn to play another game, there's a learning curve. When you learn a sport, there's a learning curve. Getting into something seamlessly is impossible. Even having extensive knowledge of any sport isn't going to mean there will be a seamless transition in a sports videogame.

What you're suggesting is flat out impossible unless it was genetically programmed in every single human being.

BlazBlue and Street Fighter are examples of easy to learn, hard to master. I figured out while playing for the first time that BlazBlue's normal attacks functioned like Super Smash Bros. Thus, I learned the basic controls. It's my decision alone to decide whether I go ahead and learn the combos and such. Anyway, these games seem to be successful enough that they're getting sequels.

And finally, not everyone dedicates themselves to a game. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of competitive players have personal affairs to attend to, have jobs, relationships, etc. They aren't basement dwellers.

@Pieman
You're looking at this strictly from the position that realistic graphics = better. That's not always the case. Do you want something like this:

Or would you go with what they have in the main Mario games?

What I'm talking here, ultimately, is to see a better blend of the various artstyles in Smash. Kingdom Hearts managed to combine the iconic Disney characters and the Final Fantasy characters in a way that doesn't clash (except for Zack) with either series or looks weird.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

You missed the point. The point was that Competitive players drive away the noncompetitive ones rather then bring them in. These players are too good and it prevents others from having fun. They don't need experience. They just want to play a **** game.

Where is this huge interaction between the factions taking place exactly? I never had to play a competitive player unless I went out of my way to find one. It's not like they are hustlers ont he corners, they play on their own time, in their own places, that a casual player would have to make a point to go to.

That's like saying there shouldn't be professional sports because if I went against Lebron in a pick-up game down at the courts he would beat me, so I shouldn't even play basketball anymore, right?

 

[waterfall6464]

All right, I got some ideas on how to improve the garbage that is Brawl's online mode.

1. Add a Rival system like in metroid prime hunters and Mario kart DS. After a match has ended, you can pick players you liked as 'rivals'.

If they did the same to you, you have both added each other to your Rivals, list which can be acessed on the same page as 'with friends' and 'with anyone'.

On this list you can see whether they are online or not, and if they are you can challenge them for a battle.


2. Add a one vs one mode.
I can't believe they don't have this in Brawl, I bet many would appriciate this.


3. Being able to have a five letter name over your head in with anyone matches.
Even nintendo's other games like Mario kart wii and Mario strikers charged have this and more.


4. Maybe a no items switch so you only search for others with this enabled before a match.

This one is mostly wishful thinking and probably won't happen, but hey, one can dream right?

 

[Pieman0920]

@Kuma

What does that hyper realistic Mario have to do with anything? I could post a bunch of brightly colored blocks and spheres in the shape of Mario and say that that's what would happen if you kept up your prefered graphic style, but we all know that won't happen. The level of detail comes in shades, and that doesn't mean that it has to be like the picture you posted. The mix of detail, yet retention of the old style, that Melee/Brawl has is something I really do prefer over the overly simplified look of NSMB's art, though I will level that some color issues may be there.

And the current style that Melee and Brawl had is one where everyone is in and doesn't clash, so I really don't understand your complaint. If you want characters to look simplified and more brightly colored, then that's something to ask for, but saying they aren't already conformed to a non-clashing style is pretty out there.

 

[Fatmanonice]

:falls through the ceiling:

Smash Bros should never become photo-realistic. I like how they've done this up until now when it comes to graphics in each installment. With Brawl, all the characters looked like they belonged together and nobody looked genuinely out of place (er... except maybe Snake) but to have all those characters together was "believable" in how it wasn't hard to picture a world where all those characters interacted. For example, look at Mario. He keeps his cartoony qualities but his overalls have a lot of detail and his gloves are a little gray in color from age. The same goes for Yoshi in how, lo and behold, he still looks like a cutsey dinosaur but his shoes look like they've faded with time and use.

 

[GodlyOwnage]

I was thinkin for 2nd gen would be maybe Tyranitar? Not many big powerful Pokemon on the roster.

Meowth, sorry I'ma hafta say I don't like him. But we don't need a HG/SS rep if they get a good enough stage I think. Mewtwo is a must for me. Deoxys seems like it would be cool. But I'm not sure if it should use all forms or just attack...So... Pikachu Jiggs PT Lucario Mewtwo Deoxys...or Tyranitar for me. Do you think Pokemon is deserving of 6?

Edit: @ Chef, Yeah he seems like the perfect 3rd gen. And would make for an epic match for Mewtwo. And I'd also look forward to a Mewtwo-Lucario match along with others against Mewtwo.

You know if they would implement differnt looks for the pokemon in your team it would take out alot of these things. for instance.

I select pokemon trainer, i then choose charizard, when i change his costume to that of another pokemon lets say, salaemence, now im playing what seems to be a new pokemon but really he has the same moves. Then again it would probably be too much work for them to make different looking animations for the same move for each different pokemon but its just a though.

I don't believe anyone has posted it...but i would really love to see Eevee in smash brothers. His down B could be to where a random stone (or rock for glaceon and leafeon) drops out the sky and if you catch it you evolve (would play the evolving theme from pokemon but animation wouldn't last long. it would be kinda funny) but anyway you would evolve into the pokemon of the stone you picked up. Flareon, Vaporeaon etc. they could all have the same moves but different special attacks for each of them. I would play him every day @_@

hell the only reason i bought the last pokemon game is because it had two move eevee-lutions in it. personally i think the pokemon games are dead since they too lazy to come up with any more.

 

[Big-Cat]

And the current style that Melee and Brawl had is one where everyone is in and doesn't clash, so I really don't understand your complaint. If you want characters to look simplified and more brightly colored, then that's something to ask for, but saying they aren't already conformed to a non-clashing style is pretty out there.

For the most part, I just want more vibrant colors over the washed out look in Brawl. Simplifying is a very strong word here. Look at the graphics between Super Mario 64 and Sunshine. That's the graphics I would like to see with in terms of color for the Mario characters, and the realism added is okay with me. It just needs to be better handled. As I've said several times, the details on Peach's dress look weird to me when animated. If they had the time and stuff to add all the animations instead of it looking painted on, I'd be happy. Otherwise, if they know they can't do it, then just go with the less detailed design (this just means remove the dress details, the overall look remains the same except there).


On an unrelated note, why do Peach and Zelda have easy upskirts and don't have the white stuff on the inside of their skirts? I always found this weird considering that the other games don't really let this happen often. Not only that, but it's weird to see Peach with granny panties.

 

[SmashChu]

No, you missed the point. The noncompetitive players and new players should not tread into territory where they'll get slaughtered. Let the competitives play amongst themselves, let the others play amongst themselves. It's as simple as that. No one's forcing one to play the other.

No, let's go back to my original post.

Competitive players don't play the same as noncompetitive ones and can even drive the noncompetitive ones away from the game. It's hard to keep playing when your weak at the game and you keep losing. Game that are too competitive make too big of a gap and drive them away, but competitive players want this gap, so decline sets in.

The bold is what you should focus on. Your claim was a strong competitive community can drive up sales. My claim is it can drive down sales. The game will be too hard, and the other players too good (ever heard of online).

Do you realize that learning curves are existent in EVERYTHING? There's no such thing as no learning curve. When you started to play Smash, there was a learning curve. When you learn to play another game, there's a learning curve. When you learn a sport, there's a learning curve. Getting into something seamlessly is impossible. Even having extensive knowledge of any sport isn't going to mean there will be a seamless transition in a sports videogame.

The point was you somehow accept these as facts of life,. and as a good thing. These are barriers keeping customers away.

And finally, not everyone dedicates themselves to a game. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of competitive players have personal affairs to attend to, have jobs, relationships, etc. They aren't basement dwellers.

WRONG. Japanese Street Fighter players can spend almost 5 hours a day playing the game. This is why they win.

BlazBlue and Street Fighter are examples of easy to learn, hard to master. I figured out while playing for the first time that BlazBlue's normal attacks functioned like Super Smash Bros. Thus, I learned the basic controls. It's my decision alone to decide whether I go ahead and learn the combos and such. Anyway, these games seem to be successful enough that they're getting sequels.

If they are so easy to get into, why are they doing so poorly? This is not the facts as they are, this is the facts as you think they are.

 

[Big-Cat]

The bold is what you should focus on. Your claim was a strong competitive community can drive up sales. My claim is it can drive down sales. The game will be too hard, and the other players too good (ever heard of online).

Don't give me that bull crap. Is the concept of "Easy to learn, hard to master" that difficult for you to grasp? As for online, as I've said before; you don't know who you're facing; prepare for the worst. Besides, there are games that give you the option to search for opponents with the same skill level as you (based on win rates).

The point was you somehow accept these as facts of life,. and as a good thing. These are barriers keeping customers away.

I don't know about you, but I value the rewards I get from hard work; I consider learning curves as a fact of life. It's not the most favored, but it's still there. As for keeping customers away, do you have proof for this? At most, you're just saying that customers are too lazy to learn anything.

WRONG. Japanese Street Fighter players can spend almost 5 hours a day playing the game. This is why they win.

So can an American player playing Halo or any other game. They win because they practice and put the time in to do so. As such, their dedication should be rewarded in the form that they're better skilled at the game.

If they are so easy to get into, why are they doing so poorly? This is not the facts as they are, this is the facts as you think they are.

We've been down this road before and you still haven't learned, have you? Heck, other people have gone down this road with you. There are so many factors regarding sales, but you keep looking at one and making an extreme conclusion. I can list five factors off the top of my head.

1. Fighting games are not as popular as they were in the early 90's.
2. Gamers these days prefer realistic graphics. Street Fighter and especially BlazBlue do not go this route.
3. There's a misconception that you have to learn long strings of combos to just know what you're doing.
4. The audience on the 360 consists primarily of people who play FPS games. I can't comment on the PS3, but I'm willing to bet it's in a similar boat where fighting games are not the most popular genre.
5. People think they will get their butt kicked and are too scared to go out of their comfort zone.

Oh, and more thing. Street Fighter IV was the fourth most downloaded game off of BitTorrent with 800,000 downloads. Combine this with the pre-existing numbers, you're somewhere between 3.5-4 million in sales. That's almost half of Melee's sales.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

A little late here.... but... The reason I like Brawl's graphics compared to Melee is that it just looked better. They juist improve from game to game. Like the first reveal of Brawl where they where Melee form and then changed. And of course the N64 was square. But I don't want it to TOO "good" (real looking) keep the video game feel to it

 

[Big-Cat]

A little late here.... but... The reason I like Brawl's graphics compared to Melee is that it just looked better. They juist improve from game to game. Like the first reveal of Brawl where they where Melee form and then changed. And of course the N64 was square. But I don't want it to TOO "good" (real looking) keep the video game feel to it

Oh, I thought you talking about the games overall. Graphics should be no contest. Again, you guys need to get this out of your head: Realistic graphics aren't the only good graphics.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Of course graphically/technically, Brawl looks miles better than Melee, but artistically, it definitely isn't my cup of tea by any means. It suffers from what a lot of next-gen games suffer from nowadays--that horrible dingy look.

I'm fine with characters and so forth having SOME realistic detail in Smash, but not to the point where it mimics Twilight Princess or whatever entirely, dirty look and all. Look at Ratchet and Clank:

http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/887461/ratchet--clank-future-a-crack-in-time/images/ratchet-and-clank-future-a-crack-in-time-20090910050329782.html
http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/887461/ratchet--clank-future-a-crack-in-time/images/ratchet-and-clank-future-a-crack-in-time-20090827114157754.html
http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/887461/ratchet--clank-future-a-crack-in-time/images/ratchet-and-clank-future-a-crack-in-time-20090723033906199.html

Cartoony, comicy, expressive, loads of charm--this is the direction Smash should be heading for.

 

[SmashChu]

Don't give me that bull crap. Is the concept of "Easy to learn, hard to master" that difficult for you to grasp? As for online, as I've said before; you don't know who you're facing; prepare for the worst. Besides, there are games that give you the option to search for opponents with the same skill level as you (based on win rates).

Kuma, you're insane.

None of what you posted related to my comment. It's hard to try and explain anything to you because of how discombobulated you are. How is anything I said related to something being "Easy to learn, hard to master." I said that competitive communities drive down sales, but now you make a claim that they are "easy to learn." There is no game beign discussed here, let alone no example of a game. You see how these are the facts as you think they are.

Also, you offer now solution to online and how this may drive away players. Obviously, you're OK with that.

We've been down this road before and you still haven't learned, have you? Heck, other people have gone down this road with you. There are so many factors regarding sales, but you keep looking at one and making an extreme conclusion. I can list five factors off the top of my head.

And every time they lose. I've been bombarded with weak arguments left and right. It's really how long I want to go toe to toe with misconceptions, poor reasoning, fallacies and a lack of any evidence to support a claim.

The problem here is your examples are poor and inconsistent. Allow me to show you.

1. Fighting games are not as popular as they were in the early 90's.

Then why does Smash Bros beat out every other fighting game, even ones from the 90s.

2. Gamers these days prefer realistic graphics. Street Fighter and especially BlazBlue do not go this route.

Mario Kart Wii, Wii Sports and New Super Mario Bros Wii don't go this route either, yet they sell better then most "realistic" graphics games.

3. There's a misconception that you have to learn long strings of combos to just know what you're doing.

Misconceptions have some truth in them.

4. The audience on the 360 consists primarily of people who play FPS games. I can't comment on the PS3, but I'm willing to bet it's in a similar boat where fighting games are not the most popular genre.

Yet they have far more fighting games then the Wii, and the Wii has the best selling fighting game. Why can't these games do well? Also, there were no amazing platformers on the Wii. Heck, platformers were almost a dead genre, and here comes New Super Mario Wii. There is no consistency with your statement.

5. People think they will get their butt kicked and are too scared to go out of their comfort zone.

HMMMMM I wonder why.

See how none of your statements correlate with solving the actual problem. These are just bean counter answers, not solutions to a greater problem. This is why I have posed some of these questions. Your thinking is in the old axiom and I propose new ideas foreign to you. So far, you have not seen the problem, despite the fact it is there.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Oh, I thought you talking about the games overall. Graphics should be no contest. Again, you guys need to get this out of your head: Realistic graphics aren't the only good graphics.

Good graphics depend. They aren't only realistic. That game Okami didn't look realistic but the graphics were great. They do just need to have everyone in a similar art style. So we can't really have a cel-shaded Link. But he shouldn't look like the other Link (Zelda Wii I guess) Maybe Toon Link could be a little closer to the way he looks in WW but not too close. Understand?

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Man, you two should get married, with you proposing, Chu. Argue way to **** much over the same stuff; doesn't that get monotonous?

Good graphics depend. They aren't only realistic. That game Okami didn't look realistic but the graphics were great. They do just need to have everyone in a similar art style. So we can't really have a cel-shaded Link. But he shouldn't look like the other Link (Zelda Wii I guess) Maybe Toon Link could be a little closer to the way he looks in WW but not too close. Understand?

Toon Link could get away with his Cel look if everyone else gets the R&C treatment I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[DekuBoy]

I love the graphics, except for the horrible diluted colours. Nintendo has always used vibrant, colourful character designs and I want it to be as vibrant as Melee was. Saying that, Melee had some odd graphical faults.

Ness and Pikachu were fat. Ganondorf was hugely unexpressive. (IMO) DK looked like a mis-shaped Muppet. Well, that was actually just a little rant.

My point is: If you're gonna design characters to fit in with each other you need borderlines. You have to change details without losing the characters look, and appeal. You can't make Snake look cartooney to fit in with Mario, but you can't make Mario look realistic either. You just have to make Mario look more detailed and serious.

 

[Big-Cat]

Man, you two should get married, with you proposing, Chu. Argue way to **** much over the same stuff; doesn't that get monotonous?

You don't think I'm tired of it? I was hoping to have a civil discussion with Toise, but he had to butt his head in.

I wonder why I come here still. Is it for the sake of argument?

Back on the artstyle thing. Ness is fat in his game and the look for him and Melee is pretty similar to his original art aside from that Ness in MOTHER 2 is portrayed with longer limbs.

Again, I agree that we have to have that balance and it's not easy. Snake actually screwed up the style to some degree due to him being the only one from a series that primarily uses realistic graphics (Prime series not withstanding).

 

[ScoobyCafe]

My point is: If you're gonna design characters to fit in with each other you need borderlines. You have to change details without losing the characters look, and appeal. You can't make Snake look cartooney to fit in with Mario, but you can't make Mario look realistic either. You just have to make Mario look more detailed and serious.

Definitely not; I think you guys have this preconception because Brawl already did it. Had it made Snake a bit more comicy, practically none of you would being saying or thinking this; don't delude yourselves.

Kingdom Hearts did the opposite, and look how well that turned out.

You don't think I'm tired of it? I was hoping to have a civil discussion with Toise, but he had to butt his head in.

I wonder why I come here still. Is it for the sake of argument?

Ignore him from here on out, since it's blantaly evident to me that he's always going to harass you whenever you bring anything pertaining competition, like a fanatic stalking a female celeb.

 

[SmashChu]

You don't think I'm tired of it? I was hoping to have a civil discussion with Toise, but he had to butt his head in.

I wonder why I come here still. Is it for the sake of argument?

The reason I butt my head in is becuase of some of the stuff you say. Example:

Maybe so, but remember that it's the competitive community that keeps the game alive. At one point, the noncompetitive players will move onto something else. I mean, I got tired of Mario Kart Wii after a while and moved on to something else. Nintendo can use this community as a means of free advertising or they could even milk it by sponsoring tournaments and getting a share of the tournament fees.

There is no reason to think that is true.
There is a reason to think it is false.

There is a negative correlation with size of the competitive community vs the marginal sales of a game.

This is what I mean by the facts as you think they are. If you had thought about your statement, and then tried to see if the facts match your hypothesis, you'd see that the facts contradict what you are saying.

This is what I mentioned in the other post. The claims you made do not correlate with the facts as they are. "Fighting games were big in the 90s, not today." But Smash is a fighting game that was made in the 2000s. So, your claim does not match with the evidence.

The problem is you see things in a Red Ocean. You see fighting games as competing with one another. Toise and I see things in the Blue Ocean.

Street Fighter games since Street Fighter 2 has had to compete against other fighting games. So you could say the genre has turned into a red ocean of a sort.

Smash Brothers was a fighting game that did everything differently and attracted a very different audience. You could, perhaps, say that Smash Brothers was a ‘Blue Ocean’ type of game in a genre saturated with Street Fighter 2 clones.

Blue Ocean Strategy is about challenging what is done in an industry and trying to find new waters with new customers. Your thinking is competitions, fighting over the same consumers. To see Smash Bros. success and where Street Fighter can be born anew, you have to think in new terms.

 

[Big-Cat]

Ignore him from here on out, since it's blantaly evident to me that he's always going to harass you whenever you bring anything pertaining competition, like a fanatic stalking a female celeb.

Probably for the best. If I'm going to have someone to argue with, it'll be Toise. At least he gives me good stuff to read.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

^ Good. You two tend to bring up some good stuff whenever you debate with him, hence the minimalism stuff. =)

The reason I butt my head in is becuase of some of the stuff you say.

Chu, how many times are you going to quote the guy just to say the same stuff, over-and-over again? Didn't you make your point crystal clear the first time around?--I can't be the only one noticing this pattern.

Chu: *Stalks*
Kuma: Discuss topic at hand
Chu: *Waits*
Kuma: Competit--
Chu: *POUNCE!*

Every. single. time.

 

[Big-Cat]

So anyway, do you guys have any ideas for new bonus modes? I would be happy just to see stuff like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish as they were before.

How about a stealth stage? It'd be like capture the flag where you have an opponent with the same objective.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

You don't think I'm tired of it? I was hoping to have a civil discussion with Toise, but he had to butt his head in.

Out of fairness, the only major difference between me and Chu is that I tend to be less hostile about it and make fewer typos. The general message is still the same.


I actually lost track of what was being discussed, but the things I wanted to point out were:

1. The competitive community doesn't mean much to Smash (we're talking less than 1% of the fanbase), although hanging around here long enough might give you the opposite impression. Focusing on them means alienating everyone else.

2. The next game will not surpass Brawl if the major focus of its changes are in gameplay. This is because most people think in terms of content over gameplay (IE characters over ATs) and the general engine is rather ideal where it is anyway.


At any rate, I've got a lot of work to do so I don't have as much time to do the back-and-forth anymore. If you really want good stuff to read, pick up a good book.

 

[SmashChu]

Chu, how many times are you going to quote the guy just to say the same stuff, over-and-over again? Didn't you make your point crystal clear the first time around?--I can't be the only one noticing this pattern.

Chu: *Stalks*
Kuma: Discuss topic at hand
Chu: *Waits*
Kuma: Competit--
Chu: *POUNCE!*

Every. single. time.

The problem is that I have to say it 1000 times. I've said stuff, and Kuma ignores it. This is why he still makes the same fallacies over and over.

I tend to jump out when something seems wrong. Like before, Kuma says "A strong competitive community keeps the game alive, but games with strong competitive communities don't have strong sales, usually having weak sales. So I come in to point out the error.

 

[§leepy God]

So anyway, do you guys have any ideas for new bonus modes? I would be happy just to see stuff like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish as they were before.

How about a stealth stage? It'd be like capture the flag where you have an opponent with the same objective.

♪ Sounds challenging and well thought out, it would be even more challenging with traps. x_x †

♪ They also should return Coin Launcher since that was a very fun way to get trophies. †

 

[Big-Cat]

1. The competitive community doesn't mean much to Smash (we're talking less than 1% of the fanbase), although hanging around here long enough might give you the opposite impression. Focusing on them means alienating everyone else.

Being here hasn't really affected my perception. It's really more of my personal values than anything else. Anyway, one of the reason why I'm advocating for some attention to the competitive community is to provide long-term satisfaction which is what games with competitive communities have the benefit of. In other words, I'm wanting to see more replay value in the versus mode. The competitive aspect gives you a mountain to climb, if you so choose to pursue it. However, be mindful that this consist of mastering the execution to perform quick, but lethal moves and exploiting your tools.

I know you're all about options. I'm just wanting the competitive option to be present as well, but not in the form of speed settings, physics settings, etc. I believe there's another way to break in new players than a slower speed. Of course, what works will vary from person to person.

2. The next game will not surpass Brawl if the major focus of its changes are in gameplay. This is because most people think in terms of content over gameplay (IE characters over ATs) and the general engine is rather ideal where it is anyway.

Yet Super Smash Bros. is a videogame. Gameplay has to be top priority. The amount of content should be after that. As for people looking at everything in terms of content, that's a sad truth since it can encourage laziness among developers to just go ahead and add more of the same stuff.

At any rate, I've got a lot of work to do so I don't have as much time to do the back-and-forth anymore. If you really want good stuff to read, pick up a good book.

I need to see if this at my college. It probably won't, but I'd like to save the $25 dollars it would cost me to buy it.

♪ Sounds challenging and well thought out, it would be even more challenging with traps. x_x †

♪ They also should return Coin Launcher since that was a very fun way to get trophies. †

Well, for traps, I was thinking of explosives and hair wires that be hardly detected. Along with that, there would be cyphers and enemies around the place. The only problem with this whole setup is that it'd be difficult to have world records like the other modes assuming that the level is never quite the same each time. Another thing I was thinking of is having just a single player version as well. Having a CPU opponent isn't always that fun.

As for the coin launcher, it was okay at first, but it got so boring after a while. It felt like an RPG grind. I can't recall how many times I got the same trophy over and over. Getting rarer trophies was a pain.

BURAKKU ROKKU SHUUTAA....

 

[SmashChu]

I need to see if this at my college. It probably won't, but I'd like to save the $25 dollars it would cost me to buy it.

I highly recommend it. it's a good read. Also, a guy named Malstrom wrote a lot about Blue Ocean Strategy with the video game industry. Check 'em out.

Also, you playing though New Super Mario Bros Wii?

 

[DekuBoy]

Definitely not; I think you guys have this preconception because Brawl already did it. Had it made Snake a bit more comicy, practically none of you would being saying or thinking this; don't delude yourselves.

No, I'm saying that's what they DID in Brawl. Not what should be done. I hate games taking themselves too seriously.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Deku: Oh, my bad. At least we're in agreement, here. Also, have you heard of Dream Mix TV: World Fighters?

@SmashChu: "The problem is that I have to say it 1000 times," no you don't, once is good enough. If he chooses to ignore, just leave him be. You can't spout whatever over and over again and hope for a different result. It's annoying.

Anywho, come on, I know you're capable of bringing some stuff to the table here. I know you got a lot of flak for coming up with an auto-recovery idea, but I'd like to hear some more of that--ideas-- to discuss, and not the bull**** I have to sniff and subject my eyes to whenever competition is brought up.

And about New Super Mario Bros Wii, SSB4 needs the zoom in/zoom out camera for adventure mode; that thing is magic. =)

So anyway, do you guys have any ideas for new bonus modes? I would be happy just to see stuff like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish as they were before.

How about a stealth stage? It'd be like capture the flag where you have an opponent with the same objective.

Current modes need more meat on them; they're kinda bare bones. Some obstacles, co-op, versus, and all that good stuff for RttF would be nice.

I was thinking about having some sort of scavenge mode for SSB4. After playing L4D2, and looking at "The Great Cave Offensive" in Kirby Super Star, I think it could be fun. 1-2 players trying to find treasure, while opposing 1-2 players send all kinds of stuff on them.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

So anyway, do you guys have any ideas for new bonus modes? I would be happy just to see stuff like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish as they were before.

How about a stealth stage? It'd be like capture the flag where you have an opponent with the same objective.

I had an idea for this but can't remember it. One thing though, Adventure Mode AND Story Mode (Adventure Mode would probably be the Story Mode and there would be a different name for this) It's like Melee's in a way. And then a boss at the end (Don't know how that would work or who it would be) but it would be nice. And this way there could be Smash Trophies again. I liked those. I don't remember most of the descriptions though so I don't know what they'd be for this. And also we'd get a reward for completing it and it would be shorter than Story/Adventure Mode.

Also I liked the Great Maze (I think) in Melee Adventure Mode. There could be a Maze Mode similar to that but a different maze for each character or series.

 

[Big-Cat]

Also I liked the Great Maze (I think) in Melee Adventure Mode. There could be a Maze Mode similar to that but a different maze for each character or series.

There was a Great Maze in Melee? The only thing I can recall that was like was the Zelda level in Adventure Mode.

However, I would like to see a Metroidvania Adventure Mode like Scooby suggested a while back. The problem with Brawl' Great Maze was that it was a recycle of everything you already did.

Current modes need more meat on them; they're kinda bare bones. Some obstacles, co-op, versus, and all that good stuff for RttF would be nice.

When I said "as they were before" I was referring to the Target and Platform modes. RttF was bare bones back then. Obstacles would be nice along with getting rid of the countdown timer since it was only possible to get all the way with a few characters within the time limit.

@SmashChu
I've heard of this guy, and he seems to be rather controversial. I'll read one of the articles and see what I think.

I did get NSMB Wii. I'm enjoying it.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

There was a Great Maze in Melee? The only thing I can recall that was like was the Zelda level in Adventure Mode.

However, I would like to see a Metroidvania Adventure Mode like Scooby suggested a while back. The problem with Brawl' Great Maze was that it was a recycle of everything you already did.

Yeah, the Zelda level is what I meant. Have a maze designed resembling a little a place from each game series (or one for each character, I don't know) like the Zelda maze thing was (was it based off of something?). And you'd be teasted on how fast you got to the end (and like the Zelda one there would be fake finishes in which you'd hafta fight yourself). This would open up new interesting ways to unlock characters/stuff.

I didn't like too much how the Great Maze was just a recycle. But really I don't know what else they could have done.

 

[DekuBoy]

@Deku: Oh, my bad. At least we're in agreement, here. Also, have you heard of Dream Mix TV: World Fighters?

@SmashChu: "The problem is that I have to say it 1000 times," no you don't, once is good enough. If he chooses to ignore, just leave him be. You can't spout whatever over and over again and hope for a different result. It's annoying.

Anywho, come on, I know you're capable of bringing some stuff to the table here. I know you got a lot of flak for coming up with an auto-recovery idea, but I'd like to hear some more of that--ideas-- to discuss, and not the bull**** I have to sniff and subject my eyes to whenever competition is brought up.

And about New Super Mario Bros Wii, SSB4 needs the zoom in/zoom out camera for adventure mode; that thing is magic. =)



Current modes need more meat on them; they're kinda bare bones. Some obstacles, co-op, versus, and all that good stuff for RttF would be nice.

I was thinking about having some sort of scavenge mode for SSB4. After playing L4D2, and looking at "The Great Cave Offensive" in Kirby Super Star, I think it could be fun. 1-2 players trying to find treasure, while opposing 1-2 players send all kinds of stuff on them.

Yes, I have. Optimus Prime vs Bomberman am I right?

 

[Pieman0920]

For the most part, I just want more vibrant colors over the washed out look in Brawl. Simplifying is a very strong word here. Look at the graphics between Super Mario 64 and Sunshine. That's the graphics I would like to see with in terms of color for the Mario characters, and the realism added is okay with me. It just needs to be better handled. As I've said several times, the details on Peach's dress look weird to me when animated. If they had the time and stuff to add all the animations instead of it looking painted on, I'd be happy. Otherwise, if they know they can't do it, then just go with the less detailed design (this just means remove the dress details, the overall look remains the same except there).


On an unrelated note, why do Peach and Zelda have easy upskirts and don't have the white stuff on the inside of their skirts? I always found this weird considering that the other games don't really let this happen often. Not only that, but it's weird to see Peach with granny panties.

While I don't particularly mind the colors in Brawl, I can tell that they are a bit less vibrant than usual, so its not something I really oppose for SSB4. Again though, I think the details on Peach's dress really is a fairly small thing to complain about, and that it can probably be fixed with the stronger engine that will most likely be used in the new system. Even if they don't though, I just don't understand getting rid of it, sicne it really does look better than the very plain standard design.

As for the skit thing, idunno. Maybe its a Japanese thing.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Kuma: All three are bare bones, though. A lot more could be done with those modes. As for RttF, they should make it like some kind of Ninja Warrior type mode. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I want just that; a 3-4 stage obstacle course.

Yes, I have. Optimus Prime vs Bomberman am I right?

Yup.

Just wanted to point out how art-wise, it handled the crossover aspect relatively well without resorting to making all the characters look one way 'cause Simon Belmont or Tyson was in the game.

Anyway, I want smash to go back that expressive, comic book style it had in 64:

I'll always point to Ratchet & Clank: Crank in Time whenever someone ask me how SSB4 should look like, because it has that comicy feel which instantly reminds me of SSB64: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trDZcBShFl0

Brawl--this filtered, Twilight Princess, real is brown type nonsense is something I really don't like. At all.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Scooby
Other than Link's eyes and Fox looking slightly effeminate in that picture, the art style was nice. Not the best in the world, but a good one nonetheless.

You have any suggestions for improvements in Targets and Platforms? Maybe a stage maker for these?