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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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SmashChu

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I think you're being close minded on the ideas he has. A personal smashball/super meter system isn't going to complicate things if it's implemented right. You're saying it would be a botch to the balance, but I can't see anything to show that the games have ever been all that balanced to begin with. I noticed right off the bat that Samus sucked and that Zamus was a heck of a lot better. If there's a reason for FS' needing an item, I'd like to know why. Chances are that you'll respond by saying how overpowered they are (yet some of them are underwhelming).

There is nothing wrong with added stuff as long as it's done right. Don't be too conservative about it. Keep an open mind.
Again, a meter system is to static and boring.

Also, I bolded the line because your obviously lost and confused and found your way here. A mater is conservative because every other fighting game does it.
Conservatism (Latin: conservare, to "save" or "preserve")[1] is a political attitude and philosophy which advocates institutions and traditional practices that have developed organically within a nation over a period of time.
A meter is traditional as other games have done it before. No game has done something like the Smash ball. You are being closed minded.

And no, Smash Bros is very well balanced in a 4 player setting (because, gasp, that is how they designed the game). Samus is a good character, but a defensive one. He is heavier and has better recovery skills. ZSS is offensive and is much lighter too. It's just how the characters play. They are both good.
 

Big-Cat

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Oh no, we are NOT starting this **** again. Haven't you gotten your fix this last week?
 

Blue-Lightning

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
8
New characters I would like to see:

- Isaac
- K. Rool
- Ridley
- Toad (with moveset inspired by New Super Mario Bros. Wii)
- Dixie
- Pacman
- Megaman
- Tails
- Knuckles
- Amy Rose (game needs another girl, as annoying as she is)

And if you don't want third party characters, keep it to yourself... this is my list and I want them in.
 

WoodyWiggins

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
445
Location
Cincinnati, OH
New characters I would like to see:

- Isaac
- K. Rool
- Ridley
- Toad (with moveset inspired by New Super Mario Bros. Wii)
- Dixie
- Pacman
- Megaman
- Tails
- Knuckles
- Amy Rose (game needs another girl, as annoying as she is)

And if you don't want third party characters, keep it to yourself... this is my list and I want them in.
Don't forget about Toad from Super Mario Bros. 2. I never really understood why Peach used Toad as a counter attack.
 

But-itzah-me!

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Messages
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Again, a meter system is to static and boring. I agree with this 100%. We are not talking about the static, 1 on 1 Teken fighting games here; we are talking about a game that has no single win strategy. In order to win, in essence, you must be able to play at a higher skill level than your opponent. Being as such, including a meter that you can easily fill over time would add an aspect that is an always present fallback strategy, making the game stale and repetitive. 'Smash meter' = baaaaad idea.

Also, I bolded the line because your obviously lost and confused and found your way here. A mater is conservative because every other fighting game does it.


A meter is traditional as other games have done it before. No game has done something like the Smash ball. You are being closed minded.

And no, Smash Bros is very well balanced in a 4 player setting (because, gasp, that is how they designed the game). Samus is a good character, but a defensive one. He is heavier and has better recovery skills. ZSS is offensive and is much lighter too. It's just how the characters play. They are both good. Thank you! All too often people forget that the SSB series was designed for 4 PLAYER PLAY. Only after the onset of melee did competitive play skyrocket, and when Brawl didn't produce anything close to the 1v1 competitiveness of melee, many SSB enthusiasts were upset. Although Brawl does have plenty of obvious gaps in potential between characters, you cannot look at the game based on a simple 1v1, no item match. The game as a whole was designed for so much more.
Comments in bold above.
 

Big-Cat

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@Kuma: You feel like reading?

@Blue Lightning Guy: If you're looking for more X chromosomes, you don't have to dip into 3rd parties. I can think of five off the top of my head, though you've already named one of them.
That was a good read, Toise. I enjoyed it. My problem with such an idea is that once you go to the minimum details and whatnot, what do you do if you decide to do a sequel? Adding stuff would be against the minimalist design, but you don't want the sequel to be the same thing again. At the same time, you add in too much stuff into a game and it might be deemed confusing unless it's done right, but the same can be applied to the opposite.

This article enlightened me as to see that the main idea behind Subtractive Design is to focus on the core aspects of the game. In a game like Smash, this would be the fighting and the other inherent aspects of it. With this in mind, we should remove C-Sticking and Random Tripping. Random Tripping adds serendipity into a game where skill and a little luck(ie the opponent(s) making a mistake) are the core aspects for any given match. C-Sticking, IMO, is an unnecessary feature and a handicap for execution.

Some of the mechanics that have been suggested like the air dash and reel-in air tethers are there for the air and anti-air aspects of the game. Not only that, but their uses are rather obvious: Air Dash is there to get in close for air combos and to get away, or even recovery; the reel-in air tether is primarily for those who have a hard time in the air and to discourage camping.

By the way, I wouldn't bring up NWD. After the Air Dash idea was brought up, I tossed NWD out of the window since I like this idea more.
 

SmashChu

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Oh no, we are NOT starting this **** again. Haven't you gotten your fix this last week?
No, because you keep saying stupid things. If you thought about what you said instead of just type garbled junk, we wouldn't have this problem.

Your post shows you don't know what conservative means, but you sure are ready to use it to judge others.

I skimmed though it, and is probably a good idea, but they weren't smart is using examples. Braid and Ico aren't very good examples as those aren't very successful games (and Braid is a horrible platforming game). Had they used items that were commercially successful, they really could have driven the point home.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Cape Cod, MA
That was a good read, Toise. I enjoyed it. My problem with such an idea is that once you go to the minimum details and whatnot, what do you do if you decide to do a sequel? Adding stuff would be against the minimalist design, but you don't want the sequel to be the same thing again. At the same time, you add in too much stuff into a game and it might be deemed confusing unless it's done right, but the same can be applied to the opposite.
Extra techniques aren't the only way to innovate gameplay. Context is usually what makes or breaks a game, so why not focus on that? The individual characters, stages, items, settings, number of players, all that jazz.

Compare NSMBWii to SMB3. Not very different in mechanics, but the context is completely different. Or better yet, compare NSMBWii to NSMBDS. The only people who feel those are too similar either haven't touched both games or wanted a new main theme.


I skimmed though it, and is probably a good idea, but they weren't smart is using examples. Braid and Ico aren't very good examples as those aren't very successful games (and Braid is a horrible platforming game). Had they used items that were commercially successful, they really could have driven the point home.
Since I don't feel like rewriting that article with more successful examples AND it got through to Kuma anyway, I'm sure it's fine for now. You personally already understand the whole thing since the short version is "get rid of all the doodads."

Though he really should've talked about the Wiimote, but oh well.
 

Big-Cat

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Extra techniques aren't the only way to innovate gameplay. Context is usually what makes or breaks a game, so why not focus on that? The individual characters, stages, items, settings, number of players, all that jazz.

Compare NSMBWii to SMB3. Not very different in mechanics, but the context is completely different. Or better yet, compare NSMBWii to NSMBDS. The only people who feel those are too similar either haven't touched both games or wanted a new main theme.
I see what you're getting at, but it's not like you can always just give it a new coat of paint and call it a day, but this is about the Mario games here, and to a lesser extent, Zelda. By the way, I still haven't gotten around to playing NSMBWii yet, but I intend to, and that's a promise. We can discuss that more all you want when I get the chance.

So in terms of Smash, it's a little vague for me, but would you mind providing some context examples? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.

Anyway, yes, adding stuff isn't the only way to innovate gameplay. However, I think "innovate" and other related words are used to much around here to the point that they've lost meaning. I'd prefer to say something like "a breath of fresh air" or "something creative" or "enhance" in certain contexts.

I was thinking more about the article and taking mechanics or other properties like lives is just one way to have Subtractive Design. There's also taking away unnecessary difficulty. I was happy to see that Brawl added the ability for you to grab the stage while your back was facing it, and to auto grab the stage with a tether attack. That made my life easier when I played the game because I could focus more on the fight and less about recovery precision.

@eltercerokoopa
I'm avoiding the conflict as much as I can; I even said it earlier. I care about the kittens too even though I like dogs more.

As for my top five locations (in no particular order):

1. Good Egg Galaxy
2. Phendera Drifts
3. Diamond City
4. Saturn Valley
5. Rogueport
 

ToiseOfChoice

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I see what you're getting at, but it's not like you can always just give it a new coat of paint and call it a day, but this is about the Mario games here, and to a lesser extent, Zelda. By the way, I still haven't gotten around to playing NSMBWii yet, but I intend to, and that's a promise. We can discuss that more all you want when I get the chance.

So in terms of Smash, it's a little vague for me, but would you mind providing some context examples? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.
It's a pretty engrossing concept, but I'll give it a shot.

The context is basically "how you play the game." That means which characters you and your opponents choose, how many players are there, how teams are arranged (if any), what the goal is (time/stock/etc.), what items can appear, how you interact with the stage, and some other stuff I don't feel like listing. But none of that matters if those things aren't being used.

To "focus on context" is essentially to "turn fat into muscle." That means less unused or unappreciated stuff and more ways to enjoy the overall game (which means not just the regular mulitplayer mode). Now that doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of stuff, though it does mean adjustments in some form. Take classic mode for example: most of this is pretty boring since it's just you vs. computer in a linear fashion. How would you make it more interesting? Throw in some co-op and make your opponents and objectives completely random.


Of course that means other aspects of the game need some mixing up too:

What if there were Pokeballs or ATs that pulled out bosses, and everyone had to team up for a minute to kill them or else you get "Mike Tyson wins!" on the results screen?

What if there was a stage based off of Super Mario Galaxy, where you can only KO by knocking someone directly away from the stage instead of at an angle?

What if there was a 4-player event where you had to do the entire Tourian sequence, complete with killing all the Metroids and Mother Brain?

What if you could have a 4v4 match on one of those huge stages? Imagine how intense that'd get, it'd feel more like a war rather than a duel.

And so on. The point being that rather than focusing on improving an already amazing hammer, focus on where the nail is. Or what you're nailing. Whatever. There's way more unexplored potential there.


I'm not sure if I explained that right, so lemme know if you want me to take another stab at it.


Anyway, yes, adding stuff isn't the only way to innovate gameplay. However, I think "innovate" and other related words are used to much around here to the point that they've lost meaning. I'd prefer to say something like "a breath of fresh air" or "something creative" or "enhance" in certain contexts.

I was thinking more about the article and taking mechanics or other properties like lives is just one way to have Subtractive Design. There's also taking away unnecessary difficulty. I was happy to see that Brawl added the ability for you to grab the stage while your back was facing it, and to auto grab the stage with a tether attack. That made my life easier when I played the game because I could focus more on the fight and less about recovery precision.
As long as we're both know what we're talking about, the words themselves don't matter too much.

Sorta off topic, but there was one thing I absolutely hate about Brawl's physics: the loss of running momentum when you become airborne. I can only think of one other game off the top of my head that shared that property (and that was only 1/4 of the time). Even real life doesn't work that way.
 
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...I'll stay out of this one

Stages:
Venus Lighthouse
Serenes Forest
Bowser's Castle
Ashnard's Throne room/Courtyard
Train level (I just want to play on a train, don't care its theme)

@Toise
Agreed on final point regarding momentum jumps. Nothing felt better in melee then full sprint-leap into neutral air with Young Link for an epic final kill
 

ToiseOfChoice

Smash Ace
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Cape Cod, MA
It's just really disorienting to play any game ever and then play a little Brawl.

Then again, I can think of two games where you travel faster by constantly jumping since you move faster in the air than you do on ground.
 

n88

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Poll Update!

-335 Votes

-I have received an Other vote for Isaac.
*Facepalm*

-Also, Louie is (Surprise) the only character to have no votes, again.

-Megaman and Lil' Mac leading the charge this time around, with Mewtwo and Ridley trailing just behind.
 

Big-Cat

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It's a pretty engrossing concept, but I'll give it a shot.

The context is basically "how you play the game." That means which characters you and your opponents choose, how many players are there, how teams are arranged (if any), what the goal is (time/stock/etc.), what items can appear, how you interact with the stage, and some other stuff I don't feel like listing. But none of that matters if those things aren't being used.

To "focus on context" is essentially to "turn fat into muscle." That means less unused or unappreciated stuff and more ways to enjoy the overall game (which means not just the regular mulitplayer mode). Now that doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of stuff, though it does mean adjustments in some form. Take classic mode for example: most of this is pretty boring since it's just you vs. computer in a linear fashion. How would you make it more interesting? Throw in some co-op and make your opponents and objectives completely random.
Okay, I see what you're saying. For classic mode, making it more like Melee's where it was random aside from some fixed placements would spice things up a little bit. Of course, there's always bringing back personal BTT stages, race to the finish, and finally board the platforms which I've missed for years. Maybe a boss battle before fighting the hands; it'd be kinda like the rival fights in other fighters.

I'll respond to some of your suggestions.

Of course that means other aspects of the game need some mixing up too:

What if there were Pokeballs or ATs that pulled out bosses, and everyone had to team up for a minute to kill them or else you get "Mike Tyson wins!" on the results screen?
Sounds like fun, but I'd like to see the ability to turn off the bosses in the item selection.

What if there was a stage based off of Super Mario Galaxy, where you can only KO by knocking someone directly away from the stage instead of at an angle?
Sounds interesting, but I think a SMG stage would have its own gravity which should make things fun if it's not too hazardous like Spear Pillar.

What if there was a 4-player event where you had to do the entire Tourian sequence, complete with killing all the Metroids and Mother Brain?
Sounds like something for the next adventure mode. Speaking of which, what do you think of each level in that being a semi-extraction of the levels into Smash. The first Mario level in Melee and this are the kind of things I have in mind. In a sense, it's like The Great Nintendo World Tour.

What if you could have a 4v4 match on one of those huge stages? Imagine how intense that'd get, it'd feel more like a war rather than a duel.
I assume that this could only happen online. I don't see Nintendo, even though they've always loved multiplayer, adding four additional gameslots to their consoles. It could happen, but I wouldn't count on it. I think we're better off thinking about this in terms of doubles.

Other than that, sounds like Team Fortress 2 Meets Brawl which sounds like fun. BONK!
And so on. The point being that rather than focusing on improving an already amazing hammer, focus on where the nail is. Or what you're nailing. Whatever. There's way more unexplored potential there.
Indeed, there's a lot of potential to be tapped. For characters, they can give Samus a morph ball mode, Mario the ability to switch B moves (in game), etc.

Sorta off topic, but there was one thing I absolutely hate about Brawl's physics: the loss of running momentum when you become airborne. I can only think of one other game off the top of my head that shared that property (and that was only 1/4 of the time). Even real life doesn't work that way.
I can't recall that happening to me, but I'll take your word on it (Brawl doesn't want to work for me anymore.). I think putting back in the momentum could be fun and perhaps downright evil when you jump up and do an even stronger version of your next attack or something, I don't know.

I'm surprised that we're in this so far, and we're not clawing at each other's throats. Sounds like we've settled down since the last time.
 

DQP

Smash Ace
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Messages
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top ten wanted stages:

Bowser's Castle
Artifact Temple
Palace of Shadow
Lou's Inferno (Best Guitar Hero stage I can think of)
Comet Observatory
Phendrana Drifts
Mt. Battle (Pokemon Colosseum)
Toad Town
Phaaze
Castle Bleck

sorry for all the paper mario and metroid prime stage ideas... i'm a big fan of those two series...
 

Arcadenik

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Arcadenik
Tripping can stay in SSB4 but they occur only when you slip on Banana Peels and when you try to wavedash.

Oh, and N88, I don't see the poll results that say 335 votes. All I see are percentages?
 

n88

Smash Lord
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Messages
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@Arcadenik

Really? I might have accidentally made it so people other than myself can't see it. Check back tomorrow.

As for stages, I would love to see Tick-Tock Clock and a really epic Aether stage that shhifted between Light and Dark Aether.
 
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@Kuma
Regarding the world tour idea

The only roblem I see is where games don;t have a translatable setup like pokemon and even moreso, Mother and Fire Emblem, among others.
 

Big-Cat

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@Kuma
Regarding the world tour idea

The only roblem I see is where games don;t have a translatable setup like pokemon and even moreso, Mother and Fire Emblem, among others.
I didn't think of that. If that's the case, then things would, unfortunately, be completely different.
 

n88

Smash Lord
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Messages
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As for Classic mode, how does this sound?

Battle 1) 1 v 1 (vs. One of the O12)
Battle 2) 2 v 2
Battle 3) v Mini-Boss
Battle 4) 2 v Giant character
Battle 5) 1 v 2
Battle 6) v Team ______
Battle 7) v Boss relating to PC's series
Battle 8) v Giant character
Battle 9) v Metal ______
Battle 10) v Master Hand (+ Crazy Hand if difficulty, stock conditions are met)
 

ToiseOfChoice

Smash Ace
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Messages
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I wasn't actually expecting you to respond to the suggestions (they all pretty much came off the top of my head), but I need to burn a little more time before I get back to shoveling:

[Boss AT/Pokeballs] How would that work exactly? Sounds like fun, but I'd like to see the ability to turn off the bosses in the item selection.
Think of them as regular ATs/Pokeballs that

A) have health (so you can damage them),
B) attack anyone (including the guy who summoned them), and
C) have enough of a presence that you can't ignore them (to encourage everyone to actually kill them ASAP).

So it'd be like if Duon just plopped down in the middle of Final Destination and you had to do something about it. Bonus points if they're technically capable of winning the match.

And yeah, an AT/Pokeball switch is one of those things I'd really like to see regardless.


[SMG stage] Sounds interesting, but I think a SMG stage would have its own gravity which should make things fun if it's not too hazardous like Spear Pillar.
Sure, I don't really care either way. I just think putting people in orbit is totally sweet.


[Tourian as an event] Sounds like something for the next adventure mode. Speaking of which, what do you think of each level in that being a semi-extraction of the levels into Smash. The first Mario level in Melee and this are the kind of things I have in mind. In a sense, it's like The Great Nintendo World Tour.
Pretty sure that's what everyone wanted SSE to be, so yes. 5000% of this.


[8P Smash] I assume that this could only happen online. I don't see Nintendo, even though they've always loved multiplayer, adding four additional gameslots. It could happen, but I wouldn't count on it.

Other than that, sounds like Team Fortress 2 Meets Brawl which sounds like fun. BONK!
Considering physical slots are already technically gone (and assuming they'd either drop GC controllers or make them wireless like the classic controller), I don't see how eight controllers are a big deal. Even if it wouldn't happen, four players locally vs. CPU or online players is still better than limiting it to four players only.

And I did have FPS in mind when I thought of that, actually.


Indeed, there's a lot of potential to be tapped. For characters, they can give Samus a morph ball mode, Mario the ability to switch B moves (in game), etc.
While I don't support those two ideas specifically, you get the idea, so all is good.


I'm surprised that we're in this so far, and we're not clawing at each other's throats. Sounds like we've settled down since the last time.
I like to think of myself as a total prick, but I can't be a jerk if there's nothing to be mean about.



@Shino: It's possible to replicate the feel of a series in a different genre through some of the basic concepts. Content aside, I'd expect Mother to be rather linear with some puzzle elements and Fire Emblem to be entirely about cutting through swarms of enemies in a multi-pathed level.
 

Thirdkoopa

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As for Classic mode, how does this sound?

Battle 1) 1 v 1 (vs. One of the O12)
Battle 2) 2 v 2
Battle 3) v Mini-Boss
Battle 4) 2 v Giant character
Battle 5) 1 v 2
Battle 6) v Team ______
Battle 7) v Boss relating to PC's series
Battle 8) v Giant character
Battle 9) v Metal ______
Battle 10) v Master Hand (+ Crazy Hand if difficulty, stock conditions are met)
Metal _____ (Character you're facing) would be better.

Other then that, I'm liking it.

edit: 2, 3, and 4 player classic mode as well plz.

So it'd be like if Duon just plopped down in the middle of Final Destination and you had to do something about it. Bonus points if they're technically capable of winning the match.
"LOOK GUYS I GOT AN AT"
"OHSHOOT BOSS"
*A few minutes later*
"THIS GAME'S WINNER IS...PENNINGTON"
"EXCUSE ME WTF MY GOD MAN THIS IS SO WEIRD"

Also dang. Thinking outside the box. These ideas are great. It'd make bosses more than just story characters.
 

n88

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Messages
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Actually, that does sound pretty awesome. Might throw that in there. Also, I was trying to figure out a boss/mini-boss list. I'm thinking that there would be multiple mini-bosses per series, but only one normal boss. For example, Mario might have Petey Pirahna as a mini-boss, while Luigi would fight King Boo. But they would both fight Giga Bowser for their main boss.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
625
@Toise,

I suppose that is possible, now let's test your wits (sorta, I just want your insight) regarding: pokemon, G&W, Zleda (or how it would be different than the suggested Mother concept). That's more or less it...

Boss AT's
I'd prefer series signifigant bosses, but otherwise, I'm for it. As long as it isn't Duon or someone else annoyingly difficult.

Though we could finally see a "The winner is....Ridley"

ooo sore spot.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Pokemon: Either the same as Mother (linear, some light puzzles) or a multi-man boss (which was what Melee did anyway)
Zelda: Maze-like levels similar to Zelda II or a sequential boss (which was what Melee did anyway)
G&W: Either completing tasks from G&W with Smash physics (grab the gold from the octopus, bounce to safety, lots of timing stuff) or running through a gauntlet of G&W themed levels (which would basically be Flat Zone actively trying to kill you)

Got any more brain busters?
Rizzuto's not a word, he's a baseball player
 

Blue-Lightning

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
8
Sonic the Hedgehog Series Mini-bosses

- Perfect Chaos
- Dr. Robotnik / Eggman
- Mecha Sonic

Sonic the Hedgehog Series Boss

- Doomsday Machine
 

Big-Cat

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I wasn't actually expecting you to respond to the suggestions (they all pretty much came off the top of my head), but I need to burn a little more time before I get back to shoveling:
That's the benefit of Louisiana, we don't have to worry about snow all that often, but there are floods....

Considering physical slots are already technically gone (and assuming they'd either drop GC controllers or make them wireless like the classic controller), I don't see how eight controllers are a big deal. Even if it wouldn't happen, four players locally vs. CPU or online players is still better than limiting it to four players only.
I suppose it's possible for the consoles to support it, but I can imagine it being a nightmare if developers were to stupidly put in split-screen eight player modes.

I like to think of myself as a total prick, but I can't be a jerk if there's nothing to be mean about.
I think it's the spirit of Christmas.
 

Blue-Lightning

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Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
8
I love the Boss Ball idea! It should be a ball with a crown in the middle and four sections. When player 1 hits the ball, the top left should light up... player two, top right... etc. Once all the sections are lit, the ball should summon a boss. If it was a rare item (appearing once every 10 games or so), it would be awesome. Should only summon a boss for a character on the screen.

Now I'm going to take this is another direction for a bit. Let's assume that the good stuff we've been talking about is in... how do we want the character changed so that they're balanced. I'll take Jigglypuff first:

Additions:
Super Smash - Deep Sleep: Puts all opponents in its range to sleep for 6 seconds, allowing them to take any damage, but they cannot be knocked back.

Air Grab - Jigglypuff grabs the opponent, then quickly inflates, knocking them to the side. 8% damage. This is a terrific edge guard.


Changes:
Puff Up is no longer quite so large and requires Jigglpuff to trap an opponent on the edge more than in Brawl.

Down Special is no longer Rest, but is instead Sing. Up Special is now Adore. Rest is removed. Adore causes Jigglypuff to do a cute dance move for 2 seconds, causing her to be invincible during this time. At the end she smiles and waves her "arms" for 1 second yelling "Jigglypuff" and becoming highly vulnerable. If in mid-air Jigglypuff stays in place for the duration of the move. Can only be performed once in air until Jiggly touches the ground again.

Sing now covers double the area as before and opponents sleep at least until Jigglypuff stops singing. The move can be blocked with a shield.

Forward Aerial is now a Sideways Spinning Drill Kick, exactly like the down aerial, but now in a forward direction.

Up Smash now causes Jigglypuff to quickly inflate and pop like a balloon, sending knockback in all directions.

Rollout no longer passes over a ledge. Once Jigglypuff reaches a ledge with Rollout, the move reacts as if Jigglypuff has hit a wall. This prevents most self destructs in this move.


Reasons:
The goal is simply to make Jigglypuff much better... in Brawl it is an extremely weak character whose only real strenghts are its aerial abilities and its rollout knockback. The changes implemented here make Jiggly an amazing edge guarder (air grab knocks sideways, combined with its unparalleled air time). Additionally, Adore makes Jigglypuff a difficult aerial KO since it basically cannot be edgeguarded with this move. A more powerful Sing move gives Jigglypuff a more reliable way to rack up damage on opponents, although when an opponent is at lower percentages the move will still not give time for a Rollout. Finally, the Super Smash is an excellent damage sponge, as it allows Jigglypuff to do decent damage in a few seconds or try to time a Rollout just right to hit the opponent as it wakes up for knockback damage.

Summary:
Jigglypuff becomes the owner of the aerial game, having the best recovery and a terrific defense against edgeguarding. Additionally, Jigglypuff can wreak havoc with her air throw, causing most characters to try to dodge her when coming back on the stage (exceptions are those with an Air Tether). Jigglypuff's very weak normal attacks are made up for by its ability to set up attacks with Sing. Most Puff users will probably go for its Super Smash rather than its Final (except against slower characters) since the Final forces Jiggly to be ont he ground to be effective.
 

Blue-Lightning

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
8
As for Classic mode, how does this sound?

Battle 1) 1 v 1 (vs. One of the O12)
Battle 2) 2 v 2
Battle 3) v Mini-Boss
Battle 4) 2 v Giant character
Battle 5) 1 v 2
Battle 6) v Team ______
Battle 7) v Boss relating to PC's series
Battle 8) v Giant character
Battle 9) v Metal ______
Battle 10) v Master Hand (+ Crazy Hand if difficulty, stock conditions are met)
I really like this idea, though I would make 8 be EITHER Giant or Metal ______. Make Battle 9 be 1 v 3 and the 3 be part of the same series. Examples:

- Mario, Luigi, Bowser
- Peach, Toad,
- Sonic, Tails, Knuckles
- Wolf, Falco, Fox
- Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Lucario
- Link, Zelda, Ganondorf
- Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede

I would also change Battle 7 to be another mini-boss, and have Battle 10 be a battle against the character's main boss. Have an 11th battle that is versus Hand. So...:

Battle 1) 1 v 1 (vs. One of the O12)
Battle 2) 2 v 2
Battle 3) v Mini-Boss
Battle 4) 2 v Giant character
Battle 5) 1 v 2
Battle 6) v Team ______
Battle 7) v Mini-Boss
Battle 8) v Giant or Metal character
Battle 9) v ________ Series
Battle 10) v Main Boss
Battle 11) v Master Hand (or Crazy if conditions met)
 

n88

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Messages
1,537
@Blue Lightning

Good call on the Giant or Metal, but I think the current number of bosses is fine. Also, I think I'd leave the 1 v 3 as open-ended. Requiring all the characters to be from one series would cut down on variety a bit too much, as it would eliminate all characters from series with less than 3 characters (Most of the roster). Howsabout this?

Battle 1) 1 v 1 (vs. One of the O12)
Battle 2) 2 v 2
Battle 3) v Mini-Boss
Battle 4) 2 v Giant character
Battle 5) 1 v 2
Battle 6) v Team ______
Battle 7) v Boss relating to PC's series
Battle 8) 1 v 3
Battle 9) v Metal or Giant [Player Character]
Battle 10) v Master Hand (+ Crazy Hand if difficulty, stock conditions are met)
 

Blue-Lightning

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
8
Thought I would do another SSBIV character mod list:

Yoshi

Additions:
Super Smash - Super Dragon: It was Yoshi's Final Smash in SSBB, but in SBIV it is his Super Smash. In SBIV, Super Dragon can take damage just like a normal Yoshi and can receive knockback damage. Yoshi also maintains his normal moves in this mode with a few exceptions. Super Dragon can maintain constant flight (jumps) using the jump button and shoots fireballs when regular attack is pressed. Fireballs can be aimed up, down, left, and right. Special is still Egg Lay, with the only difference being that the eggs are golden and cannot be maneuvered by the captured player. Fireballs do 14% damage and strong knockback. Firebreath in this move is removed. Super Dragon Yoshi is much heavier than regular Yoshi (almost as heavy as Metal Yoshi). Duration is 20 seconds.

Final Smash - Family of Yoshis: Two eggs drop from the sky in a short cinematic. They hatch two new Yoshis which become allies of the Final Smasher. These two Yoshis last for the duration of the match, or until they are KO'ed. They are extremely light, however. As long as the Yoshis exist, they are considered a continuing Final Smash, meaning all other Final Smashes are effectively blocked.

Air Tether - The best Air Thether in the game, Yoshi grabs the opponent with his tongue, puts them in his mouth, and then spits them out straight down in a very strong Meteor Smash. The knockback on this means that opponents can be spiked at moderate levels. Damage - 5%, additional 12% if the opponent hits the ground.

Changes:

Egg Roll is no longer helpless in mid-air and can be canceled at any time using the Special button.

Yoshi's standing grab animation is nearly twice as fast as in SSBB.

Yoshi's Roll Dodge is now 31 frames.

Reasons:
The idea is to make Yoshi a more powerful character through his Super and Final Smashes. Yoshi's Super Smash is potentially one of the most powerful in the game, giving a good Yoshi player the opportunity to wrack up major damage. Since Super Dragon is no longer invincible, however, players will probably press a Super Dragon trying to do as much damage as possible. The Final Smash is not the most powerful FS in the game by far, but it does block the opponent from using a Final Smash for as long as the Yoshis are on the stage. And as long as the Yoshis are on the stage, the opponent has something to worry about other than the player. Finally, the ultimate air tether in the game belongs to Yoshi, allowing him the difficult opportunity of slamming another character out off the stage via edge guarding.

Summary:
Yoshi becomes a character who continues to be weak as in Brawl, but whose Super Smash allows him to recover. Although Yoshi gains an extremely powerful aerial attack with his air tether, his wonky air mechanics make it more difficult to use than other air tethers. Matching the rest of his very unique playstyle, Yoshi's Final Smash is quite unique and a good tactic for blocking other players from a Final Smash.
 
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