[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ScoobyCafe]

@Arcadenik

Which is why I said don't bother with the DOJO; keep the game under wraps. And you misunderstood me when I said follow up--by that I mean something in the vein of SSFII or SSFIV (more so IV, since it actually aims to fix many things all while implementing left-over stuff and introducing new stuff).

As for Tetra, she's kinda like Sheik when you think about it, being Zelda and all, except Tetra appeared in more than one game, so her appearing wouldn't be a big deal.

For Krystal, staff or no staff?

For staff:

*Moveset*

Actually wanted one without the staff, but I don't mind either way.

Hmm. The thing with developing a moveset with her staff in mind is that she nor Fox hardly does anything with it, and what they CAN do others can already do, that is shoot fire and ice. Kinda why I think her staff should be reserved for some of her tilts and smashes.

Here's what I'm thinking about, tell me what you guys think:

Up: CloudRunner: Krystal hitches a ride on a Cloudrunner which jets toward a designated direction. Cloudrunner will harm you if you're in it's path.

Neutral: Gattling Gun: Krystal whips out her preferred weapon from Assault. A slow, yet very fast-firing gun capable of firing multiple lasers, but extremely inaccurate at a distance. The distance lasers travel in itself is rather fair.

Forward: Krazoa Warp: Krystal warps from one direction to the other. Ability derives from the Krazoa Shrine entrance warps in SF: Adventure.

Down: Barrier: Krystal creates a navy spherical shield around her that protects her from special attacks. In Assault, her special is x2 barrier possession due to her being rather frail compared to the other playable characters. Unlike reflector, barrier will absorb a la spellstones in SF: Adventure, and refract.

Final Smash: Nope, I got nothing.

I say something like this stays true to her appearances in Adventure an Assault. Quake I imagine being her down smash, just so you know.

 

[Dsull]

Actually wanted one without the staff, but I don't mind either way.

Hmm. The thing with developing a moveset with her staff in mind is that she nor Fox hardly does anything with it, and what they CAN do others can already do, that is shoot fire and ice. Kinda why I think her staff should be reserved for some of her tilts and smashes.

Here's what I'm thinking about, tell me what you guys think:

Up: CloudRunner: Krystal hitches a ride on a Cloudrunner which jets toward a designated direction. Cloudrunner will harm you if you're in it's path.

Neutral: Gattling Gun: Krystal whips out her preferred weapon from Assault. A slow, yet very fast-firing gun capable of firing multiple lasers, but extremely inaccurate at a distance. The distance lasers travel in itself is rather fair.

Forward: Krazoa Warp: Krystal warps from one direction to the other. Ability derives from the Krazoa Shrine entrance warps in SF: Adventure.

Down: Barrier: Krystal creates a navy spherical shield around her that protects her from special attacks. In Assault, her special is x2 barrier possession due to her being rather frail compared to the other playable characters. Unlike reflector, barrier will absorb a la spellstones in SF: Adventure, and refract.

Final Smash: Nope, I got nothing.

I say something like this stays true to her appearances in Adventure an Assault. Quake I imagine being her down smash, just so you know.

no offense but if she ends up without a staff and gets movesets like this, i'd be kinda pissed. These are very very similiar to the other 3, just making another variant. Good move ideas, but still similiar.
I like the one with the staff and agree. As for the Final Smash, i could see either 1) Krazoa spirit possesses Krystal, vastly improving her special abilities for a short time (basically the opposite of Wario's, where his are more focused on normal attacks) or 2) She cries out in Dino and a bunch of Dinosaurs appear to fight along side her.

I just woke up so leave me alone lol.

I would have liked for Toon Zelda in Brawl if she could transform into Tetra. I wouldn't like it if she transformed into Toon Sheik. But now that Spirit Tracks is out and Tetra is not coming back, is there any point for Toon Zelda to transform into Tetra now if she is added in SSB4? Tetra isn't topical anymore, you know?

Well, where did Pit come from? a NES game that sucked and we never saw a sequel to. If they can bring Pit back, i think we can see Tetra back.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fans are responsible for the deadlines, not strictly just Nintendo.

Oh yea, you know fans are the issue. Once they announce something fans will immediately be going GIVE IT TO US! even if its not close to being done.
For instance, Starcraft 2 by Blizzard, they announced that like 3 years ago and the initial release date was 2008. They havnt even released Beta yet. I've read on forums about SC2 that numerous people have been sending hate mail and such to blizzard because theyre refusing to "give us the game" (theres that phrase again).
And thats a PC game, a game thats easily patchable. This is a harddisc game, and sorta difficult to patch since not everyone has wifi in their house (and hardline wii is ********)

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I just woke up so leave me alone lol.

Nope.

You say the moves are good, yet would be pissed off? Okay.

She'll have her staff, her whole moveset just won't revolve around it. I'm trying to stay true to her appearances in other games, as I said before. Plus, being very similar to the other three is an overstatement, lest you actually believe a different Up special, neutral, and down special makes her similar.

As for you're final smash ideas, not really a fan of either. I'm sure she can have something a little more fitting.

 

[Big-Cat]

Nope.

You say the moves are good, yet would be pissed off? Okay.

She'll have her staff, her whole moveset just won't revolve around it. I'm trying to stay true to her appearances in other games, as I said before. Plus, being very similar to the other three is an overstatement, lest you actually believe a different Up special, neutral, and down special makes her similar.

As for you're final smash ideas, not really a fan of either. I'm sure she can have something a little more fitting.

I think I have something that might satisfy the both of you. Why not make the staff her specials and her weapons as Smashes? Snake has something like this already.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Hmm.

Honestly, I don't think Krystal should stray too far away from the play style Fox, Falco, and Wolf shares. She'd be different, no mistaking, but I don't want her ending up like Snake.

You wouldn't want her using her staff for standard attacks? I imagine she'd be able to do more with the staff that way. =/

 

[Big-Cat]

No, no, I want the staff for her attacks, but I suggested weapons for her Smash attacks as a compromise.

Anyway, why shouldn't she stray from the style the others have? Do you want the Starfox characters to be the shotos of Smash or what? All we need is Slippy and Peppy and you'd have the whole shoto - I mean Space Anthro team.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, where did Pit come from? a NES game that sucked and we never saw a sequel to. If they can bring Pit back, i think we can see Tetra back.

You know that is a different situation. Pit had two games.... one on the NES in 1987 and one on the original Game Boy in 1991. He is the protagonist of a dead series and adding Pit could help pique the fans' interest in Pit and his series... leading to a possible revival, which could be good for Nintendo. It worked wonders for Metroid, why not Kid Icarus? Then again, it didn't really help Ice Climber at all - no new games since their inclusion in Melee back in 2001 but it was a nice try.

Zelda is an ongoing series that never died. Why add a retro (and one-time) Zelda character if it isn't even going to revive the Zelda series since the series never died? Adding one-time Zelda characters are fine as long as they were from the most recent major Zelda games at the time the latest Smash game was being developed. Only Sheik in Melee fits this unique case and if Toon Sheik was really Tetra, she came very close in Brawl. But by the time SSB4 is annnounced, Tetra will become a retro Zelda character so what's the point of adding her? To try to get the fans interested in the Zelda series? Nope, that wouldn't work because the Zelda series never died. It is like adding Geno, a retro one-time Mario character, in SSB4 when his only role was more than 15 years ago (at the time SSB4 is announced and/or released).

 

[Dsull]

I think I have something that might satisfy the both of you. Why not make the staff her specials and her weapons as Smashes? Snake has something like this already.

i'd be down with that. Far as i can tell she doesnt have much physical physique anyway so it would be sorta fitting having her totally decked out in weapons.
Keep the SFAdventures costume as one of her skins tho

As for the pit thing, yea that makes sense. We'll see in the next year or so if they plan to try to revive it. Ice Climbers could have, myself and my friends all started playing that good ol' nes game again even tho we never even played Ice Climbers in brawl/melee lol just cuz it reminded us of them. I actually forgot that game was made by Nintendo till they popped up in Melee.
I kinda hope they revive either or both of them. Metroid/Mario is getting a little old, and Zelda is a good game but since it went 3D it got easy to solve the puzzles. Twilight....i didnt even get phased by its puzzles - even the water temple and the water temple in Ocarina of Time STILL baffles me. And unlike Metroid thats a game you cant make harder via difficulties cuz the main difficulty is patterns and riddles, not movements and aiming (i say this because Metroid Prime 3 was easy as crap on Normal but on Hyper Mode sheesh it took me almost an hour to beat the Ice guy whatever his name was)

 

[ScoobyCafe]

No, no, I want the staff for her attacks, but I suggested weapons for her Smash attacks as a compromise.

Anyway, why shouldn't she stray from the style the others have? Do you want the Starfox characters to be the shotos of Smash or what? All we need is Slippy and Peppy and you'd have the whole shoto - I mean Space Anthro team.

Well to be honest, I don't think I have an opinion on her using weapons for smash attacks, at the moment. I'd have to see a moveset for standard attacks before I say what I think would be appropriate for her.

As for Starfox characters being shotos, I don't necessarily mean that. They fight as if they use martial arts or something, and I think that's how Krystal should fight like also, but with a staff. I've seen folks who practice martial arts do crazy stuff with staffs and staff-like weapons, and I sorta want her to do the same.

 

[Dsull]

Well to be honest, I don't think I have an opinion on her using weapons for smash attacks, at the moment. I'd have to see a moveset for standard attacks before I say what I think would be appropriate for her.

As for Starfox characters being shotos, I don't necessarily mean that. They fight as if they use martial arts or something, and I think that's how Krystal should fight like also, but with a staff. I've seen folks who practice martial arts do crazy stuff with staffs and staff-like weapons, and I sorta want her to do the same.

I get it. How about this?
Lets use your Specials since i dont feel like cooping up my own with technology-biased attacks.

Up: CloudRunner: Krystal hitches a ride on a Cloudrunner which jets toward a designated direction. Cloudrunner will harm you if you're in it's path.

Neutral: Gattling Gun: Krystal whips out her preferred weapon from Assault. A slow, yet very fast-firing gun capable of firing multiple lasers, but extremely inaccurate at a distance. The distance lasers travel in itself is rather fair.

Forward: Krazoa Warp: Krystal warps from one direction to the other. Ability derives from the Krazoa Shrine entrance warps in SF: Adventure.

Down: Barrier: Krystal creates a navy spherical shield around her that protects her from special attacks. In Assault, her special is x2 barrier possession due to her being rather frail compared to the other playable characters. Unlike reflector, barrier will absorb a la spellstones in SF: Adventure, and refract.

And now normal attacks, via the staff. (Keep in mind the staff does shrink down and sits on her back when not in use, in case someone brings up "How the heck can she carry all that plus a staff?")

NeutA: Multistrike: Krystal strikes four times with her staff, each one getting slightly stronger than the last. The final hit will send her target soaring into the air.

FTilt: Pogo Kick: Krystal uses her Staff like a pogo and launches a powerful kick.

DTilt: Ground Sweep: Krystal sweeps the ground infront of her with her staff, tripping any foes a decent distance away (not sure what you'd use to govern distance so i'll say 3 characters away)

UTilt: Sky Strike: Krystal swings her staff at the air above her, preventing any aerial assaults (probably closely related to TL's upsmash, one hit wide swoop).

AirNeut: .........drawing a blank on this one heh.

AirFTilt: Double Strike: Krystal does a backflip, kicking once then following up with her staff.

AirDTilt: Hammerhead: Krystal swings the large, blunt end of her staff down sharply (Meteor strike). This attack has two hitboxes. The Meteor only takes effect if the end of the staff makes contact. If the rod part hits the enemy, only damage is delt. (Basically meaning this attack has a bit of range on it, but needs good timing/aiming to pull off right)

AirUTilt: Aerial Cyclone: Krystal spins her staff rapidly above her, catching any opponents to deal numerous, light-damaged attacks (think of Pit's).

AirBTilt: The Boot: Krystal kicks both feet backwards for one, sharp kick.

FSmash: Charged Strike: Krystal charges up her staff before dealing one single, intense blow (from one of Fox's SFA combos where the final hit charged the staff up)

DSmash: Ground Slam: Krystal again charges her staff, only this time thrusting it at the ground below her, dealing massive AoE damage to the targets around her.

USmash: Rocket Attack: Krystal flips her staff backwards before charging up her attack. When she releases it, the first hit knocks the opponent upward, then she rides the staff to pursue him/her and deliver a devastating kick.
(basically she hit them with the back end of the staff and while it was flipping around the energy took her up into the air)

FThrow: Krystal puts her foot on the target's chest, then backflips away. (Poor explanation sry)

DThrow: Krystal slams her opponent to the ground, then uses the charged up staff to deal a Ground Slam attack.

UThrow: Krystal falls onto her back and kicks the opponent straight up.

BThrow: Krystal snags the opponent with her staff and flails him/her backwards.



Comments?

EDIT: Oh yea, reason she doesnt have any punches is because 1) would be odd to have a large staff in your hand, and then throw a punch and 2) she's not that muscular, but im sure we all know how strong a girl's kick can be (ow....my nads...)

 

[jhon9x11]

Gimme, Tom Nook,Ridley and K.Rool.



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fashion games
dress up games
painting games

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Think about it. Punch-Out!, Sin and Punishment, NSMBWii, SMG 2, Other M, etc.

Golden Sun DS.

That is all.

ScoobyCafe, Sakurai did the Melee Dojo and it made fans hype for Melee. After they got the game, they were upset with the final roster. Sakurai did the same thing with Brawl and the results was the same anyway. It is really not Sakurai's fault the games weren't great. The games weren't great because it did not live up to our unrealistic expectations. The games themselves are actually great, it is just that it did not live up to what we had in mind. Brawl was a follow-up to Melee and SSB4 will be the follow-up to Brawl.

unrealistic expectations

Unrealistic =/= What other developers have proven to do: People very well have the right to be vocal. I however do not believe Melee was more touched up than Brawl despite Brawl having drugged up ideas. And no, I'm not just talking about Tripping.

I think what Cafe's trying to say is that Sakurai should've opened his mouth along with the others about brawl until they were sure that they had the time to put it at a "Complete" Status. You know, keeping it under wraps, like Golden Sun DS, S&P2, Golden Sun DS, Other M, Golden Sun DS, SMG2, oh and did I mention Golden Sun DS?

Of course, being the type of game Smash is, it can never truly be complete. Even If we got a roster that was complete in Sakurai's eyes, Series being complete, and all fan Appealers that were, well, considered "Plausible" There'd still be something people would find and whatnot. Even outside of that, there's simply so much that can be done. I had a post somewhere on things that weren't the roster, and that even successfully proved it.

 

[n88]

@Arcadenik

Tetra could get in if Toon Zelda gets in for the same reason Sheik is in Brawl; She's stapled to Zelda. Plus, do we know for certain we're never going to see Tetra again? Zelda games are not made in anything even resembling chronological order.

 

[DekuBoy]

Gimme, Tom Nook,Ridley and K.Rool.



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fashion games
dress up games
painting games

I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

So we're discussing Krystal then? Groovy. Did anyone hear what Miyamoto said about a new StarFox game? It was something like 'I'm a big fan of the Starfox games and we're trying to make them as fun as possible'. E3 anyone?

 

[Dsull]

I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

So we're discussing Krystal then? Groovy. Did anyone hear what Miyamoto said about a new StarFox game? It was something like 'I'm a big fan of the Starfox games and we're trying to make them as fun as possible'. E3 anyone?

i am interested..... i havent heard anything bout an SF wii yet

 

[Pieman0920]

Okay I'm back and...hmm, Toise didn't even respond. That's good. I only need to go through Koopa's argument then.

The player doesn't get the general idea of a RPG from having said RPG's characters in a fighting game. It just doesn't make any real sense. Actually given that you don't actually play as Porky, and rather just fight him, Brawl covered its bases fairly well in those regards. Plus given the more descriptive nature of RPGs, if you want people to have a better sense of it, it would probably best to include more trophies and what not. (Though I understand that for Brawl that didn't really happen, since Sakurai's team got lazy there)

Why would we need to think outside the box for this type of thing? Its really quite simple. Popular or unique characters are the ones that get into Smash. Some times there are a few curve balls (Like Wolf) or characters that aren't really that popular or unique but are there to represent a different series (Pit, ROB) If you go by the quote you applauded Toise for, you're still barking up the wrong tree in terms of series completion, and what you should be pushing is the fact that Porky could have his own spider-mech moveset or something (Though I would rather see a Tron Bonne style moveset go to Andy or someone else from AW)

I'm aware of Wario Land (though he technically didn't start that series out in his standard costume, but whatever) but he was still the next Mario character in line even without his two series.

And its just so weird that you don't recognize that your series completion idea is the exact same thing as "Villains and Females" though more geared to villains. For you, what has consistently been lacking in unfinished series? Villains for the most part (and some females). Now the reason this is the same as asking for more villains and females is because you're not choosing the villains because they bring anything new or because they have unqiue personalities or any of that other jazz. You're saying the villains should get in because they are part of a series that isn't "complete" in your eyes. Its only wanting them because you want the series to simply have more rather than thinking about what others actually want or what would be better to expand the Nintendo brand. There will be expansion to series, no doubt about that, but the characters that do get added in will be ones that people have been requesting or ones that can help promote newer games. The characters who make no sense and come out of left field are almost certainly going to be from neither of these, but rather from new brands. (With the possible exception of a another Wolf)

And for the thing you said after I gave my response to Toise....

If you read through there again, you'll note that its really not as bad as it seems. The bottom and top tiers of Nintendo franchies correlate very well, and there are three major issues with the middle tier that can easily be explained. First off is that the DK series was intended to have three characters in the form of Dixie (who probably would have worked like Zelda/Shiek but both would be on the same screen like the ICs) Thus it would have been tied with Kirby and thus been in the metaphorical second tier of character representation. Of course this didn't happen due to technical reasons, so it only registers as two. The second main problem in the list are the Yoshi and Wario series, but this can easily be explaind by the fact that both are simply extensions of the Mario series, especially in Yoshi's case. It could also be worth noting there that the Wario series that Sakurai seems to recognize is the WW series, which would reduce the sales number if it were to stand on its own. Lastly, the third problem in there is F-Zero and Metroid, who we all know just don't have the right type of characters to be playable (or at least its very difficult to add new characters to both series)

EDIT: On the subject of Tetra, I would think at this point any chances she could have had have been shot in the foot. While I haven't played it yet, in Spirit Tracks, doesn't Zelda turn into a living suit of armor (hurr durr FMA) or something along those lines? If Sakurai really does go back to his Toon Zelda idea instead of Tingle, wouldn't it make much more sense to use the much more combat oriented armor rather than non-combative Tetra? Plus its more topical.

EDIT X2: Arcadenik, you really don't get what I've been saying at all. Older franchises will likely be dictated by popularity and topicality, while new oddball characters will likely come from new series. I expect and endorse a variety of new, unused series, getting into Smash 4, instead of overemphasis on pre-existing franchises.

 

[Dsull]

i dont think i can remember a single Yoshi game that didnt have Mario in it at some point, so yea i agree his series are extensions. Wario...i forget which was his FIRST appearance game but i know he was a villain in one of the marios. Again agreeing with the extension theory.

That aside, theyre still very unique and different characters. If they never brought Wario Ware to the world, i bet Wario wouldnt be in brawl because before then he was just a fatter, meaner Mario with an attitude.

EDIT: Oh and btw, Kuma/Scooby where are ya dang it i wanna goto bed but i want to hear a response from you two lol.

 

[Pieman0920]

Yoshi's Story didn't have Mario if I recall, though it did have Bowser. Wario's first apperance was in Super Mario Land 2, though it didn't take any time at all for him to branch off into his own series. (Which is quite surprising thinking about it. People must have loved him)

And if WW didn't exist, Wario still would have probably gotten in because he was one of the most requested characters that didn't get into Melee, and he still had the Wario Land games.

 

[Dsull]

Yoshi's Story didn't have Mario if I recall, though it did have Bowser. Wario's first apperance was in Super Mario Land 2, though it didn't take any time at all for him to branch off into his own series. (Which is quite surprising thinking about it. People must have loved him)

And if WW didn't exist, Wario still would have probably gotten in because he was one of the most requested characters that didn't get into Melee, and he still had the Wario Land games.

1st) Ahhh right SML2 for the GB i remember now. He stole mario's castle hehe.
I never played Yoshi's Story because my N64 took a dump on me before i even knew it existed, and Gamecube was coming out so i didnt bother getting a new one. I have an N64 emulator but ive yet to find a rom of Yoshi's Story that works.
I dont even remember the true name for it, but one of my favorite Wario games from the past was for Visual Boy (the red lines thing), but that system went down the tubes due to the eye issue. I think they had like 20ish games and it died lol. Only game i remember the name of is Mario Crash (miss that one too).

2nd) true he had Land games to go from, but like i said he was just a meaner mario for the longest time. Bet if they based him off the Land series his specials would involve throwing his shoulder around or headbutting.
Actually that wouldnt even be close to a Mario clone, disregard my statement lol.

 

[AppleCore]

Dragon Ball Z. That is all.

 

[Pieman0920]

If you want Dragon Ball Z in a Smash game, go look at Battle Stadium D.O.N. Other than that, there's no way DBZ (or any other anime, comic, or cartoon franchise) is getting into Smash.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Finally have a [somewhat] solid idea for the standard moves Krystal would use. All kicks and staff attacks; she'd be the Litchi (Blazblue) of Smash Bros., to a degree. With that in mind... Dsull, your moveset is okay, but...

NeutA: Multistrike

FTilt: Pogo Kick

UTilt: Sky Strike

AirFTilt: Double Strike

AirDTilt: Hammerhead

AirUTilt: Aerial Cyclone

AirBTilt: The Boot

FThrow

DThrow

UThrow

BThrow

These can change.

Given the fact that she can shrink her staff when not it use, I'd say she should have a different neutral A. Slap, elbow, knee strike is what I'm thinking about--weak attacks, but that's the point of neutral A attacks.

For F-tilt, your suggestion seems better suited as dash attack. U-tilt, I imagine her pointing the staff downward, then bringing it upward in an arch quickly.

For F-air, look at the move Litchi does here--I suggest Krystal do something similar.

Can't write a moveset now 'cause I'm about to head out, but I'll make sure I make one for you folks later. Meantime, try to come up with a K. Rool moveset.

 

[Pieman0920]

My memory of Star Fox Adventures is rusty, but are the attacks being suggested here based around any of the melee attacks there? That's probably where the main source of her attacks would come from, since it wasn't all just magical abilities that Fox could do. (Then again, I do notice that there are some refferences to it in there, so that's good)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

handy links to big posts

Now I remember why I didn't like debating with you. You come up with theories that mostly build on "this makes sense at face value" rather than fact-checking and solving discrepancies. Plus the part where you ignore some incredibly obvious stuff.

I honestly don't know how to respond to what you say without repeating myself. So I'll sum up or something.

Pieman: "Sakurai goes for popular characters/series first, using sales charts as a reference."
Toise: "Here's a comparison of sales to characters; only 4 out of 12 series match up."
Pieman: "4 out of 12 is a good enough ratio to justify what I just said."
Toise: "How's 33% good enough? The roster would look completely different under your theory."
Pieman: "None of the characters you suggested count, by the way."
Toise: "Despite all of them being clearly important and popular within their own series, and some of them being among the most popular in ANY series?"
Pieman: "Yes. They all have small factors against including them sooner rather than later (except Wario, I can't explain that)."
Toise: "Despite the fact that they're being excluded in favor of obscure characters with the same faults?"

Ignore the part where I kinda painted you as something of a strawman and just focus on the yellow. That's the sentence I'd expand on in a lot more detail if I wasn't already convinced not to bother. I really can't comprehend why you'd so strongly defend such a flimsy theory.


Anyway, let's backtrack a bit. Aside from showing that Sakurai doesn't care about sales for the most part, the other two points I wanted to make are:

1. Sakurai cares about "the balance of series representation." Most people feel Brawl doesn't do a good job with this, so one would assume:
(A) he decided this sometime between finalizing Brawl's roster and February 22nd, 2008,
(B) his definition of "balance" is rather broad compared to what most people would figure, or
(C) he's lying.
I'd like to believe the first, but I'd have to look into my Sakurai files for evidence towards either one of these and I don't have time for that in today's post.

2. Sakurai has no problems adding obscure characters IF he deems them likable enough. This should be obvious by now since every obscure character we've gotten (and we've gotten plenty of them) has been accepted by the fans, yet a number of you still complain about the popularity factor for a number of suggested characters (mostly in regards to series you aren't familiar with or assume no one else is, new or old).

 

[Pieman0920]

The general framework of the idea that popularity is the key is still there. As I've said before, its not the only thing that guides the decision making, but its quite clear that even with your data that it is giving the more popular series more representation, medium level series less represenation, and unknown series little to no representation. In the medium group you do have some wonky stuff going on there, and I must concede that in series like this you can't leave everything up to popularity, especially since certain series simply don't have the characters or certain series are tied to other series. Thus while the hypothesis may have falts in it, the sales data does back it up. =/

And I'm not quite sure what you're asking there. I've admitted that there's more to popularity, especially in the sense that if you only used that as a factor, the more obscure series wouldn't get coverage at all, but that still doesn't change the proportions. The disclusion of Mewtwo seems to imply that Sakurai has given caps to how much a series can have, and if those weren't there, who knows what would happen.

The thing is with Sakurai's paraphrased statements there is that there is admission that the series which have the most characters are the ones that are most popular. It also implies that he caps the popular series so that others have a shot. Capping the popular series though doesn't disprove that popular series get more, it just proves that popular series can't have everything.

Spoiler

ROB was never fully accepted.

And obscure characters (unless clones, though that was more of a Melee thing) are generally from unestablished series, not ones that have already been established.

Spoiler

(Thinking about it, you probably weren't around for the start of this debate which was over Porky and Claus, so I'm not sure if you completely understand the context of everything here, but it was essentially me saying that Porky and certainly Claus don't make sense as new additions due to the fact that since Mother won't get a new game for various reasons, and the series is fairly unknown on the whole. To that end Koopa has been saying that since he believes that they will get in anyways he believes each series will be "balanced" by Sakurai and so Mother will get its villains, though quite frankly even if that was true it only needs one and hence Porky due to showing up in two games, but Claus is always mentioned in there for some reason, which I suspect is Koopa's favoring of him more despite his circumstances, but in any case, I said that for already existing series are dominated for the most part by popularity which lead to this and thus you must understand that retro and brand new series are exempt from my views as they are simply expanding Nintendo's history as long as they are sticking with the main character rather than the supporting ones. )

Maybe you shouldn't bother reading that....

In any case, the point I'm trying to drive in here is that I believe popularity is a factor for well known or already established series, but new ones that don't have any characters at all are a different story.

 

[Terrador14]

A mounted unit would be epic win. THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES - persay, dash damage. Now THAT would be epic.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Wall of Text

See: This is why I didn't bother explaining why I think all series that can should be at a "Complete" Form. If you actually payed attention, you know very well that I think Mother may not even get those supporting characters Not due to anything about the series itself, but rather It's status between Static or Evolving

Furthermore, all you're barking up is all this stuff about my opinions on completion. If you want to see a moveset for Pokey and Claus, I will gladly make one. I have a LOT Of material chalked up for Claus and a good deal for Pokey. As said, I'll gladly make one for a character If I like them enough, which is why I've been to work on the Bowser Jr moveset and the K. Rool moveset.

Now then: We're discussing sales charts; Not Mother. Only 33% Is right. Sure, there's some "Contradictions" In some cases, but you have to admit It's surely not one of the way bigger factors. Especially when Sakurai has never used Sales.

Furthermore to add onto that; Here's the thing: Sakurai's opinion is the huge thing around here. Not yours, Not mine, Not some mystical forest creature. If he's stated nothing about Sales yet has stated many other things on his character Critera, what does this say?

Sure, It may mean something to sales charts, but as I was trying with posts, It doesn't shoe***** in or out characters. Infact, Kuma even said it. The main thing about each character when you bring it down to It's simplest form is:
1)What Sakurai Thinks
2)How easy they are to program.

And as said, until you bring some actual proof, there's nothing you have that extremely makes sales charts influencing.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

TTK
Sorry but I'm going to pull the random card.

Remember when we were discussing the iclusion of another Sega character outside of the Sonic series? I didn't think too much of it because I couldn't think of many at the time. I was looking at some of the characters that I wanted (megaman, bomberman, rayman) another 'man' character came to mind.

As far as I know, that game was pretty popular, I can't really say that Sega has any major ties to Nintendo on this one (besides VC, Sony and Microsoft have it in their DL section too) I'm just throwing out some characters that I haven't seen others put out.

I don't mean to be random, I really want to be more involved in the discussions taking place, but that would require that I have time to think about it, which I don't (Due to Finals Week). Don't mind me.

Spoiler

Lol another random thing: I wonder if we will hit 2010 pages by new years

 

[SmashChu]

And it still wouldn't justify why someone like Wario or King Dedede (who have always been very popular) took so long to be playable over the likes of Ness and Marth (who were pretty much made through Smash).

I'd like to add a point of information.

Dedede may have been planned for Melee, but got scrapped for the clones. In Melee, the plan was to have 20 characters (the character select screen suggest this before you start unlocking clones. However, some though the roster was too small, so instead of adding the 20th character, they added 6 model swap characters. The reason it is Dedede is because, after 64, Sakurai said he wanted to add Bowser, Mewtwo and Dedede, but he couldn't. Bowser and Mewtwo were in Melee, but not Dedede. Also, event match 51 had you fight three villains. Without Ganondorf, who would you have fought?

 

[Dsull]

Finally have a [somewhat] solid idea for the standard moves Krystal would use. All kicks and staff attacks; she'd be the Litchi (Blazblue) of Smash Bros., to a degree. With that in mind... Dsull, your moveset is okay, but...



These can change.

Given the fact that she can shrink her staff when not it use, I'd say she should have a different neutral A. Slap, elbow, knee strike is what I'm thinking about--weak attacks, but that's the point of neutral A attacks.

For F-tilt, your suggestion seems better suited as dash attack. U-tilt, I imagine her pointing the staff downward, then bringing it upward in an arch quickly.

For F-air, look at the move Litchi does here--I suggest Krystal do something similar.

Can't write a moveset now 'cause I'm about to head out, but I'll make sure I make one for you folks later. Meantime, try to come up with a K. Rool moveset.

yea i just whipped mine up on the spot. You're right the FTilt seems better suited as a dash now that i think about it.
The neutA attack combo sounds like a good one too. More of a stunning, multihitter rather than damage. I was going for damage because all of my characters neutA i use as damage buildup or to knock someone around (Lucario, Bowser, and Wario).

The video was messed up for me for more than half of it but i think the attack you're referring to is when she thrusts the staff straight out. (also, what game is that?). Unless i was totally looking at the wrong movements, i like mine better on this one.

Not like it really matters in the end. Unless Sakurai actually knows/looks at this forum/thread, none of this will come to be.
Still fun to debate tho lol

 

[n88]

@SmashChu

Very possible, although we have no real way of knowing. The third villain could have been Wario, though, or that event match may have been designed after the final roster was created.

Also, poll is seriously lacking in votage. I realize most of the thread's regulars have probably already voted, but if you haven't..DO ETT NAO! \/

 

[Dsull]

Bowser and Mewtwo were in Melee, but not Dedede. Also, event match 51 had you fight three villains. Without Ganondorf, who would you have fought?

what about DK? originally he was a villain and was never officially deemed a hero. All the games where he was the main character was in his own world, void of any Mario character.

 

[SmashChu]

@SmashChu

Very possible, although we have no real way of knowing. The third villain could have been Wario, though, or that event match may have been designed after the final roster was created.

This is true, but that's why it's just a theory.

Oh, and another thing to add to it though: Sakurai mentioned with Meta-Knight they he put other people's characters in before his. Perhaps he planned Dedede in Melee, but sacrificed him for the clones.

Also, poll is seriously lacking in votage. I realize most of the thread's regulars have probably already voted, but if you haven't..DO ETT NAO! \/

Like I've said before, just migrate it to other places on the internet.

 

[Pieman0920]

Finals are upon me, so big ol' posting isn't exactly easy right now, but I've got some time right now. :V

@Koopa

Its status is dead. Its not going to really get anything. The series is technically akin to FE/Pokemon, due to changing leads and overall setting in each game, but the problem is that its not going to happen any more now that the series has ended. Now given your logic for series I guess that does bring up the question of how exactly new characters should be added, but going along the rational for FE and Pokemon, one would assume that the correct course would be to represent that game that hasn't been represented, ie, Mother 1, which would disclude both Porky and MM from there. Of course given that the star of the series is in fact 99% the same as Ness, only having different name/baseball cap pointed in a different way, this becomes troublesome if you think that the series should advance, but that brings it to where my stance is in that the series simply shouldn't advance. Other series will have new characters or their characters will have new roles. There will also be brand new series or older retro series that need a first character to represent them in the first place. Now why in the world should a dead series that already has two characters representing it be given a new character? It just makes no sense.

And I don't care about movesets. Basically any character can have a moveset, though some are more inclined to it that others. As far as Porky and the MM are concerened, I have no doubt that they could be given a moveset, but that's not the point. The only positive benefit I can see with either of their movesets would be that Porky could have a moveset while inside of a mech, which would be something that no other character has done. The con to this in my eyes though is that the same thing can be done with a AW character, which would be better as far as I'm concerned because it would represent a well known and new franchise.

Its only 33% if you only go by what Toise sees, and also disclude the bottom tier of Nintendo franchises. Thus you're only counting the middle and the top. Now the thing here is that Mother and Fire Emblem actually are in the spots that they should just about be, so that's 6 out of 12 and thus 50%. Star Fox is also about borderline and I'd say its about right as well, especially when you consider the double clone-ish ness of its situation. Add in the fact that the DK series was supposed to have 3, but had to have one cut, and also count the fact that the Yoshi series just really doesn't have many (or any) non Mario series characters, and you have 9/12, aka 75%. Thus you're left off with the two series that really don't have many characters at all to go with, and if you factor that in, you've got about one series that sort of breaks the trend with Wario, which is akin to the Yoshi series in certain ways, but since it has its own characters, I won't count it in there.

And what exactly is he stating about Character criteria that contradicts the fact that he gives more popular series more reprentation. The article that Toise posted basically states that he does, but that he has to cap it off so that other series can get in their too. As I said in my reply to Toise, that's not something that disproves the idea that popular series get more, its just disproves that they get everything. Also given that the popular series really have gotten more than less popular series, I think that any words that Sakurai says are overtaken by his actions.

 

[Masterchef1123]

I've got three words.
"Bring Roy BACK"
Also some other character suggestions if you may.

Grandpa Kong
Dixie Kong
Edward from Fire Emblem
Pichu and Riachu

 

[Masterchef1123]

I've got three words.
"Bring Roy BACK"
Also some other character suggestions if you may.

Grandpa Kong
Dixie Kong
Edward from Fire Emblem
Pichu
Riachu

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

I'd love to see some peeps from Tales of Symphonia. One of the most underrated games evar!

Lloyd - definitely.
Genis/Raine, same character, like Zelda/Sheik. Alone they'd be worthless... this is a "probably not", though, as their "fighting" styles would be very difficult to put in SSB
Sheena - no... I just can't see her being a viable character.
Presea - Big yes! She'd be a very interesting character... Lightweight with an excellent ground game, but probably crap aerials and recovery... Interesting...
Regal - Yes, another very interesting character. I can see him working pretty well.
Kratos/Zelos - Nah, they're both rather boring, and we already have enough sword fighters.
Mithos - Maybe???????? Probably not though, for the same reasons Genis wouldn't work out...

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

I've got three words.
"Bring Roy BACK"
Also some other character suggestions if you may.

Grandpa Kong
Dixie Kong
Edward from Fire Emblem
Pichu
Riachu

They'd have to seriously bump Pichu up, lol.

Dixie Kong = Diddy Kong?...
Diddy Kong already basically has a Dixie Kong outfit anyways.

Raichu - That would be pretty cool, although I'd rather see Mewtwo come back.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I like double posts....

Since most of the above posts are highly improbable, I will just point out that Dixie is not Diddy.

 

[Masterchef1123]

Sorry I'd delete it but don't know how :|
Also I have another idea of a thing called 'Sky Battle'
It be in like special brawl.
Basically you fall to your doom, but you have infinte jumps and your recovery doesn't leave you vunerable,
and of course grabs don't work

___________
@Jinxkatrina8
Pichu would still be pretty fun.
A fast lightweight with some serious offensive techniques
And Dixie Kong would be a lot different considering
she has a different feel
Besides it be like saying
Mario = Luigi