[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[mystery_dungeon]

@Arcakenik

Admittingly, I actually forgot about the RPGs. The thing is, Bowser was only a threat in the original Paper Mario and IIRC, Mario was only half Bowser's size in that game (before power up).

Super Mario RPG: He was only trying to get his castle back, even if it meant teaming up with Mario.

Paper Mario Thousand Year Door: His reputation is what scared everyone in Rogueport, even then, Mario was once again only half Bowser's size.

Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga: Bowser wasn't himself for almost the entire game.

Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time: Was absent for most of the game, and the screen time he DID have, ended up preventing the shroob invasion, as unintentional as that was.

Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story: Haven't played so I can't comment.

Super Paper Mario: While not an RPG, Bowser wasn't a threat. If he was, he didn't try hard enough. Mario was up to Bowser's head in this game.

 

[Big-Cat]

First-timers need the game to be slow and simple. You admit this yourself.

I didn't say this. Yeah, I'm saying that it's one way, but there's no tried and true method that will apply to everyone and everything. Depending on what you're learning for the first time, you will need to take it slowly and this often involves learning mechanics. If it's just slow and you're expected to figure it out, then it's pointless and frustrating for the player.

Brawl has a very excellent speed for newcomers because it's not too fast. It makes for a great default setting.

You want the default (the DEFAULT, mind you) to be faster on the grounds of "newcomers can deal with it," even though Brawl is pretty perfect where it is for beginners.

You have to remember though that Brawl and all the other Smash games have different difficulties. There's no real need to keep the speed slow (default or not) when the game is basically nice to beginners by just setting the difficulty to the easiest settings.

Why tamper with it? With a speed switch, the default is irrelevant for anyone capable of using the options menu (which is everyone who already knows how to play the game).

The only reason I could possibly understand is if you somehow think Brawl's speed is insulting to these people (which would mean you lack the perspective that these people do in regards to understanding what's happening on screen).

I don't think it's insulting to beginners at all , which in my opinion, you're being overly concerned about. I don't think you're giving beginners enough credit.

And if criticism of crappy ideas and theories counts as personal attacks, then I guess I've earned the title of "SSB4 Thread Douchebag." Oh well.

It doesn't help that you don't seem to say much regarding ideas other than keeping Smash as it is with no changes and saying any changes would be bad to the oh so precious casual audience. The only idea I've seen from you is to increase the number of players in the game, and you've never really tried to convince me since apparently it would take months of convincing which seems absurd in itself. Aside from that, there's your speed option that comes to mind.

I'll give it to you on the theories, but you should still respect what different people want. It's not like everyone's going to have the same opinion as you.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

And why do you guys still listen to Arcadenik? Here's a guy who lives in a world where Ridley isn't a very important Metroid character and the Duck Hunt Dog makes people happy.

Exactly the reason why I take notice whenever he posts, laughs are assured (<333 Arcadenik)

I don't see him as the main antagonist of the series. He is just a recurring boss character who worked under the main villain-of-the-game.

And this is where I laugh.

And I am going to bring it up again... he is too big compared to Samus. Well, you have to admit it. He is BIG. At least Bowser's huge size can easily be explained away canonically by Kamek's magic (YIDS, NSMBWii), Vibe Scepter's magic (SPP), or even Bowser's own body functions (M&L:BIS).

Sure, you could probably explain it using canonical references, but that doesn't matter in regards to Smash, since it isn't canon to the respective Nintendo franchises.

Not only that, but Bowser's size even changes not only from game to game but even within the same game. For example, people love to say Bowser was huge in Sunshine but they often forget that Bowser was suddenly normal size at the very ending where he told Bowser Jr. the truth about"Mama Peach".

*Gasp* So you mean he was big, and normal sized before, much like Ridley?

I think Sakurai handled Ridley (and Meta-Ridley) very well in Brawl.

Yup, and he'll handle him equally as well when he scales him down for SSB4.

How is Ridley more viable than Dark Samus, Sylux, etc.? Just say Ridley is more important than them and I would agree but more viable? How?

More viable as in more suitable or desirable.

And if programming Ridley would be a nightmare, why would the development team waste much time trying to make Ridley fit in Smash when they could have used that time for other popular characters who would not be a hassle to program into the game like Little Mac, Starfy, Isa from Sin & Punishment 2, the new protagonist from Golden Sun DS, or even Toad?

He'd make fans happy, kinda what Smash is all about.

 

[Arcadenik]

You are correct, Pieman. Size isn't an issue in the slightest when it comes to one Nintendo character from one series standing next to another Nintendo character from another series. But when you put a resized Ridley next to Samus, then it doesn't look right. Ridley standing next to Mario. So what? Ridley standing next to Olimar. No big deal. Ridley standing next to Samus. Wait, he is way bigger than her.

So what if Ridley shows up again and again to torment Samus? Big deal, Mother Brain and Dark Samus have done that, too. So what if Ridley was the one who killed Samus's parents? It was bound to happen anyway, what with the whole raid happening and Samus's mother pushing Samus out of the way only to get caught in the blast. I don't think Samus even knew it was Ridley who killed her parents until many years later when they met again and he told her about it. Ridley isn't even the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command, the ruling body of the Space Pirates. And besides, wasn't the whole thing mentioned only in the manga and not in the games?

@ ScoobyCafe

Yeah, but Ridley is not the only character who would make fans happy. There are many other popular characters who would make fans happy.

And the only time Ridley was Samus's size was in the original Metroid and even that was retconned in Zero Mission where he has always been too big compared to Samus.

 

[Pieman0920]

You are correct, Pieman. Size isn't an issue in the slightest when it comes to one Nintendo character from one series standing next to another Nintendo character from another series. But when you put a resized Ridley next to Samus, then it doesn't look right. Ridley standing next to Mario. So what? Ridley standing next to Olimar. No big deal. Ridley standing next to Samus. Wait, he is way bigger than her.

So what if Ridley shows up again and again to torment Samus? Big deal, Mother Brain and Dark Samus have done that, too. So what if Ridley was the one who killed Samus's parents? It was bound to happen anyway, what with the whole raid happening and Samus's mother pushing Samus out of the way only to get caught in the blast. I don't think Samus even knew it was Ridley who killed her parents until many years later when they met again and he told her about it. Ridley isn't even the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command, the ruling body of the Spirate Pirates. And besides, wasn't the whole thing mentioned only in the manga and not in the games?

Poookeeeemoon. Pokemon! Pokymanz. Why do you ignore this? This series has very clearly defined sizes for its characters in game that it clearly breaks in Smash. Look how big Pikachu is compared to the trainer. That Pikachu is supposed to be 1'04". Now look at Mewtwo or Charizard, who are 6'07" and 5'07" and see how they look in comparison to Pikachu. Even in inter series issues, size means nothing for Smash Bros.

Inevitable or not, or if Samus knew or not, that doesn't change the fact that Ridley did it. There wouldn't even be a blast anyways if it wasn't for him and his pirates. And Ridley is the leader of the Space Pirates. Its been established multiple times in the recent games. If he's killed, that's not going to put his whole organization out of commision though. And I'm not sure what you're saying was only stated in the manga (which is canon) but if it was Ridley's killing of Samus' parents, that was shown in Fusion, and was mentioned in his Brawl trophy quite clearly.

 

[Big-Cat]

So what if Ridley shows up again and again to torment Samus? Big deal, Mother Brain and Dark Samus have done that, too. So what if Ridley was the one who killed Samus's parents? It was bound to happen anyway, what with the whole raid happening and Samus's mother pushing Samus out of the way only to get caught in the blast. I don't think Samus even knew it was Ridley who killed her parents until many years later when they met again and he told her about it. Ridley isn't even the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command, the ruling body of the Space Pirates. And besides, wasn't the whole thing mentioned only in the manga and not in the games?

First off, Samus knew who Ridley was when she saw him again. The only thing she learned from meeting him again is that he ate her mother's corpse. Second, the manga is canon; I'm willing to bet that a lot of the stuff from the manga will be referred to in Other M.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Yeah, but Ridley is not the only character who would make fans happy. There are many other popular characters who would make fans happy.

And Ridley happens to be one of them, one who is highly asked for.

And the only time Ridley was Samus's size was in the original Metroid and even that was retconned in Zero Mission where he has always been too big compared to Samus.

So in other words, just ignore the fact that he was slightly bigger than Samus before, which is frankly enough reason for him to be scaled down to that size again. Okay.

You are correct, Pieman. Size isn't an issue in the slightest when it comes to one Nintendo character from one series standing next to another Nintendo character from another series. But when you put a resized Ridley next to Samus, then it doesn't look right. Ridley standing next to Mario. So what? Ridley standing next to Olimar. No big deal. Ridley standing next to Samus. Wait, he is way bigger than her.

And he still would be bigger, just not gargantuan.

So what if Ridley shows up again and again to torment Samus? Big deal, Mother Brain and Dark Samus have done that, too. So what if Ridley was the one who killed Samus's parents? It was bound to happen anyway, what with the whole raid happening and Samus's mother pushing Samus out of the way only to get caught in the blast. I don't think Samus even knew it was Ridley who killed her parents until many years later when they met again and he told her about it. Ridley isn't even the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command, the ruling body of the Spirate Pirates. And besides, wasn't the whole thing mentioned only in the manga and not in the games?

Kinda shock how you don't see the importance of Ridley raiding the planet and killing Samus's parents. I mean, if he didn't do so, Samus probably wouldn't be what she is today. Fact is, Ridley is closely tied to her becoming a bounty hunter.

And since the manga is canon anyway, it doesn't really matter if it appears in the game or not.

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't remember Ridley killing Samus's parents in Fusion. All I know is that Ridley is 100% dead due to being frozen in ice and then infected with the X (the X always kills its host) before he was destroyed by Samus. Ridley is not the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command along with Mother Brain.

Yeah, sure, and Kaptain K. Rool is King K. Rool's brother and Dark Samus is 100% exact copy of Samus except color because the trophies said so.

About Pokemon, there are always exceptions, huh? The resizings were not too extreme compared to Ridley and Samus. Also, it is known that Pokemon of the same species come in varying sizes, not just in one size. Resizing is okay as long as it is subtle and not too extreme.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't remember Ridley killing Samus's parents in Fusion. All I know is that Ridley is 100% dead due to being frozen in ice and then infected with the X (the X always kills its host) before he was destroyed by Samus. Ridley is not the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command along with Mother Brain.

He doesn't kill them in Fusion, but at least one of the Japanese endings show scenes from the raid. Also, we don't know if Ridley is dead or not. That body is, but considering that Metroid is sci-fi, his memories may be backed up somewhere and the space pirates are currently creating a new body for him using stored DNA.

As for his leadership status, it's kinda vague. All we know is that Ridley was the head of the raid.

 

[Arcadenik]

When was the last time Ridley was slightly bigger than Samus? More than 20 years ago. Ever since his second appearance (Super Metroid), he has been consistently portrayed as a very large dragon. And ever since the franchise was revived in 2002 after an eight-year hiatus, Ridley has been growing bigger and bigger with each new game. That's why he is that big in Other M now. If Ridley gets added in SSB4, which version do you think will get in? The old NES version or the new Other M version? My money is on the Other M version.

Yes, Ridley is one of the most wanted characters. Why do people act like if Sakurai added 12 newcomers who are the most wanted characters but did not add Ridley, the game would be the worst game ever? They got 12 other most wanted characters to play with.

You are right, ScoobyCafe, I don't see the importance of Ridley raiding and killing Samus's parents. From what I read on Wikitroid, the Chozo gave her the training and the Power Suit so she could survive on Zebes, not for the purposes of bounty hunting or to exact revenge on Ridley and the Space Pirates. The only reason the Chozo brought her in is because Ridley and the Space Pirates (yes, Ridley wasn't acting alone) killed everybody except Samus and they did not want to leave Samus alone and stranded in the wild. All this tells me is that Ridley made Samus an orphan and the Chozo adopted her and turned her into the way she is now.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

When was the last time Ridley was slightly bigger than Samus? More than 20 years ago. Ever since his second appearance (Super Metroid), he has been consistently portrayed as a very large dragon. And ever since the franchise was revived in 2002 after an eight-year hiatus, Ridley has been growing bigger and bigger with each new game. That's why he is that big in Other M now. If Ridley gets added in SSB4, which version do you think will get in? The old NES version or the new Other M version? My money is on the Other M version.

You're not getting it.

It does not matter when, how, or why he was that size before. What matters is that he was that size, and should be enough reason for him to become that size again. This isn't rocket science, and I'm not advocating for NES Ridley, specifically. The Other M version of Ridley could very well be in SSB4, but scaled-down.

Yes, Ridley is one of the most wanted characters. Why do people act like if Sakurai added 12 newcomers who are the most wanted characters but did not add Ridley, the game would be the worst game ever? They got 12 other most wanted characters to play with.

Ridley is highly requested, perhaps more so than the 12 you're talking about. So yes, people are naturally going to be upset if they don't see him, and Smash isn't about making people upset, no?

You are right, ScoobyCafe, I don't see the importance of Ridley raiding and killing Samus's parents. From what I read on Wikitroid, the Chozo gave her the training and the Power Suit so she could survive on Zebes, not for the purposes of bounty hunting or to exact revenge on Ridley and the Space Pirates.

The only reason the Chozo brought her in is because Ridley and the Space Pirates (yes, Ridley wasn't acting alone) killed everybody except Samus and they did not want to leave Samus alone and stranded in the wild. All this tells me is that Ridley made Samus an orphan and the Chozo adopted her and turned her into the way she is now.

And you seriously don't see how Ridley's actions were important?

Hilarious.

 

[SmashChu]

And if programming Ridley would be a nightmare, why would the development team waste much time trying to make Ridley fit in Smash when they could have used that time for other popular characters who would not be a hassle to program into the game like Little Mac, Starfy, Isa from Sin & Punishment 2, the new protagonist from Golden Sun DS, or even Toad?

http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/14281713/tatsunoko-vs-capcom-ultimate-all-stars/videos/tatvcap_trl_ptx_40a_113009.html

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't remember Ridley killing Samus's parents in Fusion. All I know is that Ridley is 100% dead due to being frozen in ice and then infected with the X (the X always kills its host) before he was destroyed by Samus. Ridley is not the leader of the Space Pirates. He is just a member of the High Command along with Mother Brain.

Yeah, sure, and Kaptain K. Rool is King K. Rool's brother and Dark Samus is 100% exact copy of Samus except color because the trophies said so.

About Pokemon, there are always exceptions, huh? The resizings were not too extreme compared to Ridley and Samus. Also, it is known that Pokemon of the same species come in varying sizes, not just in one size. Resizing is okay as long as it is subtle and not too extreme.

Really now, while certain trophies have errors (The K.Rool one is true if you're in Japan. That's how their localization team translated it out) it doesn't change a fact that is actually true. And plus, if that's what Sakurai thinks, then that's what Sakurai thinks.

And Charizard is over four times Pikachu's height. Mewtwo even more so. For instance look at this picture here.

Mewtwo was certainly a lot smaller, or Pikachu was a lot bigger back in Melee, hmm? Heck back in Melee's opening, we saw a scaled down Ridley that would work just fine really.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ ScoobyCafe

I can't see Other M Ridley suddenly scaled down happening, not especially after seeing him that big and holding Samus's whole body with just one hand in Other M.

Well, of course, people are naturally going to be upset about their precious Ridley not invited to join the most elite of the elite Nintendo characters in The Game. Only if Ridley was playable in Smash would he be finally honored with the coveted title "Nintendo All-Star". In spite of many years of people crying for Diddy Kong, Wario, Charizard, Sonic, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Pit, Olimar, and in few years of people crying for Ike and Lucario, Sakurai gave them those characters and it was not enough and why? Because people always want MOAR. Oh noes!!! Where is Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Isaac, Lyn, Little Mac, Mewtwo, King K. Rool, Ridley, Geno, and Mega Man?!? (see, they don't only want Ridley, they want other characters, too) Even if they get their precious Ridley in Smash, they will still find some reason to be upset about the roster. This is one of the reasons why I am beginning to think Smash fans hate Smash more than the casual fans do.

Ridley's actions just caused Samus to be an orphan and stranded on Zebes. Are you saying that these actions are the reason Samus became a bounty hunter? If you meant the chain of events Ridley started led Samus to become a bounty hunter, then yes, Ridley's actions were important. But really, the Chozo were the ones who turned Samus into a bounty hunter, not Ridley.

@ Pieman

Well, I guess Mewtwo and Charizard were slightly scaled down a couple feet. It wasn't an extreme change. It was like that with Mario and Bowser, too. Bowser was scaled down a little bit but not too much.

About Ridley's scaled down size in Melee.... you have to remember that the Metroid series had only three games and was dead for 8 years at the time. Ridley was small in one game and big in another game. Ridley was pretty much a clean slate back in 2001 so it didn't matter what his size was. But ever since the series was revived in 2002, Ridley has been consistently portrayed as a very large character that he has been established as a gigantic character in recenet memory and that's why he is that big in Brawl now and will continue to be that big in the next Smash game after Metroid Other M comes out with a giant Ridley.

@ Smashchu

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is not the same as Smash. In the Capcom Vs. games, you only have to bring the opponent's HP down to 0 to beat them. In Smash, you have to knock the opponent off the stage to beat them. (didn't you just argue with Kuma about how it is a bad idea for Smash to be like Street Fighter?) Ridley is very huge and it would be like trying to KO Giga Bowser. At least Giga Bowser being playable was only temporary in Brawl. It is a whole another story to play as Giga Bowser permanently - that is only the beginning of the issues with Ridley. Give Giga Bowser a pair of wings (multiple jumps and gliding) and long range attacks (Ridley's long limbs and tail) and you end up with a broken character. These little issues add up to one big problem with Ridley. That's my issue with a playable Ridley and I think that is probably why Sakurai seemed to imply that programming Ridley would be a nightmare (maybe that's why Sakurai suggested Ridley could be a little bit slower than usual because that's how fast Giga Bowser and other large heavyweight characters usually are). Keep Ridley's size intact and you end up with a broken character. Shrink Ridley down and you are taking away one of his defining traits and he still is broken, albeit a bit less broken than a giant Ridley.

 

[gantrain05]

honestly Ridley probably deserved a spot in smash before Diddy Kong, Wario, Charizard, Sonic, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Pit, or Olimar, considering how popular the metroid series has been over the past 2 DECADES, but yeah, a 3rd party sonic, and old as balls not even having a new game in 20 years pit, totally should be in before ridley.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Alright Arcade while I don't necessarily support Ridley (or dis support him, does not matter in the least to me) your "brokenness" reason is quite flawed.

To balance out his range, speed, and multiple jumps/gliding with gimpable recovery, low priority, and being large has never been a boon in smash (Chaingrabs/infinites for the win >.>)

 

[Dsull]

i remember having a discussion like this with my brothers before Brawl came out, and we were running low on nintendo characters. I can only think of 3 that arent currently in the game that would work/nintendo hasnt said they will NOT use except as a mario-universe only game (Waluigi/Daisy)

However, since now we have Sega universes and ....no idea why but the Metal Gear universe, its safe to say they will add more chars from other companies.

Therefore, here is my list.

Nintendo Owned:
Krystal (If you dont know who that is, you dont know jack about Star Fox)
Vulpix (My favorite pokemon. Doubt it would happen but i can wish)
Bowser Jr (Hey, as of late, he's turned into his own character in his own special way)
Dark Samus (No this would not be a Samus ripoff. DSamus only LOOKED like Samus but didnt fight remotely like her)

NonNintendo Owned:
Knuckles or Tails (I doubt they would add both, but its obvious one will if they dont kick Sonic out)
Megaman (Capcom and Nintendo were holding hands for ages, there was even a rumor Nintendo was buying them out)
Leon (RE4. I gotta admit, i'd be afraid of a Snake wannabe if they added him)
Toejam and Earl (Remember them from Sega Gen? It'd probably be another Iceclimbers idea with the drone following you)

It all depends on what Nintendo's thoughts are about letting other characters in. If its only companies thats buddybuddy with nintendo, im short on ideas. If its anything that appeals, hell we might see Cloud show up haha.

 

[majora_787]

...I won't get involved. All I'll say is,

Will it stop the size argument **** if I just suggest that Ridley stay at normal size? And then, why not just scale everything and everyone else UP? Nobody will know the difference. Obviously.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Well Bowser and Olimar are at the higher and lower ends of the scale. Personally I feel that Pokemon should be the bigger indicator that size has nothing to do with anything in Smash, since unlike the other series, all of the Pokemon have a established size.

Was really mentioning those two examples to point out that there's plenty of cases where in-series scaling is ignored (there are actually a few more but you get the idea).

You're definitely right on the Pokemon thing though. Not only is this a series that goes through a good amount of effort to establish consistency in size, but the Pokemon Company is supposed to be really anal about character designs in Smash. If they have no problem with ignoring scale, I really doubt R&D1 suddenly would.

post and whatnot

All of this stuff (as well as the majority of other stuff you've suggested in the history of this thread) basically just means that you don't understand the expanded audience or the importance of bringing in new fans. I can't blame you for that since very few people here seem to get it (Chu and n88 seem to be the only other people here who do), but you're being very adamant about something you have a rather minimal understanding of.


I'll mention a few things:

1) You're the ONLY person in this thread complaining over the default speed setting in the whole speed switch scenario. The closest anyone else came to seconding your position was the one guy who assumed I didn't support the game saving any previously adjusted settings.

2) I spend more time watching non-gamers play various games I put in front of them than actually playing games myself. Turns out you learn more about a game's appeal and its faults by watching a beginner play it than by playing it yourself (fun fact about NSMBWii: people learn how to save themselves from pits by pressing A long before they learn to intuitively hold 1 the entire time to constantly run).

3) For whatever reason, you've misinterpreted pretty much everything I've said from our previous gameplay discussions. I won't have very much reason to continue talking to you directly about this stuff if you keep doing that.

4) I'll humor your earlier request for an example of "too slow."

 

[Pieman0920]

@ Pieman

Well, I guess Mewtwo and Charizard were slightly scaled down a couple feet. It wasn't an extreme change. It was like that with Mario and Bowser, too. Bowser was scaled down a little bit but not too much.

About Ridley's scaled down size in Melee.... you have to remember that the Metroid series had only three games and was dead for 8 years at the time. Ridley was small in one game and big in another game. Ridley was pretty much a clean slate back in 2001 so it didn't matter what his size was. But ever since the series was revived in 2002, Ridley has been consistently portrayed as a very large character that he has been established as a gigantic character in recenet memory and that's why he is that big in Brawl now and will continue to be that big in the next Smash game after Metroid Other M comes out with a giant Ridley.

That doesn't change the fact that it can clearly work. Honestly, Ridley is big in his outside apperances, but due to his constantly changing size, and also the fact that he is consistantly one of the smaller Metroid bosses, makes him viable as a playable character. If you can have such a dramatic change in both Bowser and Mewtwo in terms of their size, then you can easiily do the exact same with Ridley, and I really can't get why you don't understand that. Look at that Pikachu and imagine it was the size of Samus. In most apperances, Ridley wouldn't be as tall as that Mewtwo next to it. (And heck, Mewtwo could so totally pick Pikachu up in one hand there) If you stack four Samus' on top of each other, they will certainly be much taller than Ridley, just like Mewtwo is traditionally that much taller than Pikachu. Look at Prime 3's Ridley, and you'll notice that he's quite compact despite the fact that he's probably jacked up on Phazon, which is known for increasing size. Heck, doesn't that right there mirror your explanation that Kamek is secretly just increasing Bowser's size without us knowing it?

 

[Big-Cat]

All of this stuff (as well as the majority of other stuff you've suggested in the history of this thread) basically just means that you don't understand the expanded audience or the importance of bringing in new fans. I can't blame you for that since very few people here seem to get it (Chu and n88 seem to be the only other people here who do), but you're being very adamant about something you have a rather minimal understanding of.

I'll mention a few things:

1) You're the ONLY person in this thread complaining over the default speed setting in the whole speed switch scenario. The closest anyone else came to seconding your position was the one guy who assumed I didn't support the game saving any previously adjusted settings.

2) I spend more time watching non-gamers play various games I put in front of them than actually playing games myself. Turns out you learn more about a game's appeal and its faults by watching a beginner play it than by playing it yourself (fun fact about NSMBWii: people learn how to save themselves from pits by pressing A long before they learn to intuitively hold 1 the entire time to constantly run).

3) For whatever reason, you've misinterpreted pretty much everything I've said from our previous gameplay discussions. I won't have very much reason to continue talking to you directly about this stuff if you keep doing that.

4) I'll humor your earlier request for an example of "too slow."

You don't think I don't understand those concepts? Look, you can think what you want, but I do want to see more people playing this game. The whole point of this conversation was that I believe that there's more than one way to break someone in into a game, yet you seem to be close minded about it.

I haven't said this, but I think it's something we should all realize: Fighting games, and this includes Smash, are not really for first time gamers. There's a lot of stuff going on in any given match, and you can't really isolate yourself to get comfortable with the controls while in the middle of a fight. To me, if you want to give games to a first time gamer, puzzle games, sims, and racing games are probably a better start.

Anyway, to respond to your points.

1. Sorry for me having a different position on the idea. I still don't see how making the speed a little faster by default is going to put newbies (not necessarily casual players in general) in a fetal position because it would be SO overwhelming to them.

2. I'm curious as to how you're going about this. Do you know a lot people who are willing to play a videogame despite never playing one? Do you have some sort of job that involves R&D?

3. Misinterpreting? Well, if that's the case, then clarify or expand on what you're getting at.

4. It does look pretty slow, but mind you that it's a single player game, not an up to four one, but I don't know how much of a difference that makes to you.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Well, of course, people are naturally going to be upset about their precious Ridley not invited to join the most elite of the elite Nintendo characters in The Game. Only if Ridley was playable in Smash would he be finally honored with the coveted title "Nintendo All-Star". In spite of many years of people crying for Diddy Kong, Wario, Charizard, Sonic, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Pit, Olimar, and in few years of people crying for Ike and Lucario, Sakurai gave them those characters and it was not enough and why? Because people always want MOAR. Oh noes!!! Where is Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Isaac, Lyn, Little Mac, Mewtwo, King K. Rool, Ridley, Geno, and Mega Man?!? (see, they don't only want Ridley, they want other characters, too) Even if they get their precious Ridley in Smash, they will still find some reason to be upset about the roster. This is one of the reasons why I am beginning to think Smash fans hate Smash more than the casual fans do.

...To think I thought Pieman's saying about Obscure characters was bad...

I'm going to attempt the logic I did on Pieman way back earlier in a long post except shorter, and of course about a different topic.

Anyways, first off, no. Smash fans don't hate Smash more than "Casual" Fans. If we truly "Hated" Smash we wouldn't be on an internet board discussing it. If we truly "Hated" Smash we wouldn't spend hours discussing Characters, Stages, and new Gameplay Mechanics. Having ideas doesn't mean you hate a game. If I truly "Hated" Smash, I wouldn't have stood outside waiting for my copy of Brawl. If I truly "Hated" Smash, I wouldn't have payed 25$ To get the original 64 Cartridge of Smash. If people "Hated" Smash, they wouldn't spend hours just to get better and go to Tourney's. It's not the player's faults that Smash games are released once every five years thus having to put all gigantic requests into one bag so we won't have to wait the five years after that for online (Just an example) To be fixed.

And using that logic, you can deduct any character from being playable. Watch:

Little Mac? Play as G&W
K. Rool? Play as Bowser
Claus? Play as Meta-Knight
Krystal? LOL YOU ALREADY HAVE 3 CHARACTERS
Samurai Goroh? Play as Marth.
Isaac? Play as Ike.

Yeah, not the most accurate comparisons but whatever. The point is that saying "X Character isn't worth it and there's tons of Y Characters that can be used" Is a mute point, because you CAN Use it on any character.

Furthermore, yeah, we got Sonic, and there's no true "Sonic" Of Smash 4, at least not yet, but If you know how crazy Ridley's support is, he for sure falls under to a similar Category.

They can resize a character. There's occasions where they HAVE Ignored it. You think people are really going to say:
1) "OMG RIDLEY IS ONLY A BIT TALLER THAN SAMUS"
Or
2) "OMG RIDLEY IS PLAYABLE THIS IS AMAZING!"

That's like saying "Sonic would suck because he has only spin mo..." Oh wait, he does have only spin moves. Now, which happened?

If you answered 2, you're correct and you managed to understand this entire Wall. If not, go back and re-read.

And finally: Ridley will take a lot of time to program, but that doesn't mean they won't do it. That's really his only flaw. While It's huge (Bad puns; yay) It's still not that bad.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I heard that they put zero in Brawl+ it just makes me psyched to see him in smash 4!
if he would be that is.

 

[Pieman0920]

Zero shouldn't get into Smash 4 due to the very pressing need for the original MM. While I guess you could argue that Capcom could give two representatives (which is higly unlikely) a secodn Capcom spot should go to a different character from a different series.

Also, while the comment was far back...

@gantrain

I think its debatable if Ridley deserved to be in front of most of those characters except for Wario. There's no way Ridley deserved to get in more than him, especially after Wario became the star of two franchises like he did after Melee.

 

[SmashChu]

I haven't said this, but I think it's something we should all realize: Fighting games, and this includes Smash, are not really for first time gamers. There's a lot of stuff going on in any given match, and you can't really isolate yourself to get comfortable with the controls while in the middle of a fight. To me, if you want to give games to a first time gamer, puzzle games, sims, and racing games are probably a better start.

Toise is right, you DO NOT understand this one bit.

Fighting games use to be for beginners because gamers were for beginners. Street Fighter 2 was an easy to grasp game and it was a phenomenon. This is why I have been saying Capcom killed the phenomenon. They made the games too hard and a lot of other publishers followed. Then Sakurai (who's career was built on a game he made because he thought games were too hard for beginners) makes Smash and it goes on to be the best selling fighting game of all time and a phenomenon. Do you see a pattern?

Mario Kart is beginner friendly and it sells a lot
Halo is beginner friendly for an FPS and it is successful. The same can be said for Goldeneye
Wii Sports is very beginner friendly
Rock Band is beginner friendly, more so then the two player Guitar Hero, which is still friendly

How do you still not get this?

 

[Pieman0920]

While I'm no real expert on the genre, I'm pretty sure the advanced player mindset that several other traditional fighting games have gotten themselves into have started to make the genre pretty stale. You can't get into the games unless you're very skilled, and most of the fighting games are all the same since traditional fans are so reluctant to change, causing stagnation in the genre as a whole.

In most cases, the competative scene for Smash seems to want advancement in the direction of traditional fighters, where things get more complicated yet mainly stay the same at the same time, which is quite strange given that Smash is supposed to be one of the rare fighting games that fools around with the formula.

 

[Big-Cat]

Toise is right, you DO NOT understand this one bit.

Fighting games use to be for beginners because gamers were for beginners. Street Fighter 2 was an easy to grasp game and it was a phenomenon. This is why I have been saying Capcom killed the phenomenon. They made the games too hard and a lot of other publishers followed. Then Sakurai (who's career was built on a game he made because he thought games were too hard for beginners) makes Smash and it goes on to be the best selling fighting game of all time and a phenomenon. Do you see a pattern?

What? Explain to me why we had several difficult games, not counting games with faulty technical issues. There were a number of factors that made Street Fighter II successful:

Straight for Wiki

Street Fighter II was the first one-on-one fighting game to give players a choice from a variety of player characters with different moves, an option which created hitherto unknown levels of depth and replay value for an arcade game. Each player character had a fighting style with approximately 30 or more moves (including previously nonexistent grappling moves such as throws) as well as two or three special attacks per character.

In the single-player mode, the player's chosen character is pitted sequentially against the seven other main characters before confronting the final four 'boss' opponents, who were CPU-controlled characters not selectable by the player.

As in the original, a second player could join in at any point during single player mode and compete against the other player in competitive matches, with the multiple available characters allowing for more varied matches.

Street Fighter II proved to be popular due to all these factors, eclipsing its predecessor in popularity, eventually turning Street Fighter into a multimedia franchise.[4]

Show me where it says that it was easy to learn as one of the factors. As for the additions made later on to the series, it's not like all of them stuck. Alpha counters, custom combos, and such that weren't in SF2 didn't stay forever. Heck, IV just added Ultras, Focus Attacks, and EX Attacks, three concepts you think are too much for whatever reason, and everything else is from II.

As for the success of Smash, you and Toise are constantly overestimating the star power of the series in favor of the gameplay. I'm willing to bet that if the series had stayed as Ryu-Oh, you would have people who would have no interest and think it's another run of the mill fighting game.

Sakurai made Kirby as a game for beginners. He didn't make the games thinking, "Oh, games are too hard for beginners to play. I'm going to set a standard where all games are easy to play." He made the Kirby games as something like an introductory course to first time gamers.

I swear, you and Toise are too conservative about the Smash series for your own good. It's like if anything is changed from what Brawl has; it's death to the casual and newbie players.

 

[gantrain05]

can't judge everything from wiki you know, its pretty obvious how easy to pick up street fighter 2 is, just because wiki doesn't say that doesn't mean its not true.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not saying picking it up is of any particular difficulty. Although, I had some difficulty getting into it the first time, but I think Smash just spoiled me with the easier execution.

I mean, I could only doing the button mashing attacks like Chun-Li's Lightning Kicks attack, but of course, this only applies to the specials. Other than that and figuring out how to work throws, it was easy, I'll admit.

 

[spyrl-9]

Hopes

Bomberman
Boy and Blob
Dixie Kong
Jeff (from Mother/EarthBound)
Kamek
King K.Rool
Knuckles
Krystal
Megaman (X)
Paper Mario
Sukapon
Simon Belmont
Ridley (!!!)

...Thoughts?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

...Thoughts?

Megaman, Ridley, Kamek, K. Rool, Dixie, Krystal, and Sukapon are all good suggestions.

Paper Mario = Just go with a stage and some other ways. Scratch that, we need a Paper Mario stage next time around. Before Toise comes, I must say that I wouldn't mind him If It meant Playable Spike/Ms.Mowz/Koops, for starters.

Knuckles, Simon, Boy and Blob, Bomberman = Is someone every day going to come here and suggest a random third-party?

Jeff = Unimportant to an already small series. Pokey and the Masked Man (See: My avatar) are however important for a next PC Slot for the series. But If we're not being realistic here, Jeff would have a pretty neat moveset.

 

[SmashChu]

Since we are talking about characters...........

I have been thinking about trying to make a good Smash Bros fan game (which is scraped for now). In doing so, I have come up with a list of characters I think most people would like to see

Issac (Golden Sun)
Little Mac (Punch-Out!)
Krystal (Starfox)
King K. Rool (Donkey Kong)
Saki (Sin and Punishment)
Samurai Goroh (F-Zero)
Ridley (Metorid)
Mii (Wii Series)

I was trying to make a roster with 10-11 new characters, but could never decide on the last ones. So, it stopped here. I think it's pretty good.

 

[spyrl-9]

Knuckles, Simon, Boy and Blob, Bomberman = Is someone every day going to come here and suggest a random third-party?

Jeff = Unimportant to an already small series. Pokey and the Masked Man (See: My avatar) are however important for a next PC Slot for the series. But If we're not being realistic here, Jeff would have a pretty neat moveset.

Thank you for your thoughts.
-Knuckles I feel the best choice if another Sonic character is added. Tails may be 2nd most popular, but Knuckles has better moveset potential.
-Simon Belmont is from the first Castlevania for the NES. Considering how many more that have followed, and the number of those that have been on Nintendo consoles... I felt he was similar to MegaMan -a 3rd party character, but one with a long history with Nintendo, and remembered most (best?) for their older games on a Nintendo system.
-Bomberman also falls into these catergories. And Hudson has decent relations with Nintendo.
-A Boy and his Blob is also guilty of some of this, though the series only had a few games. All three were on Nintendo consoles, however. With the original being released on the Virtual Console just this past year, and the new game just being released as a Wii exclusive. Refueling the almost-forgotten series with newfound popularity.
-Originally, for another Mother/EarthBound rep, I was trying to come up with something for Paula, which would up the female ratio as well. However, I found that she would pretty much be a Ness/Lucas clone. In fact, Ness' moves since SSB(64) were taken from her. I then found potential with Jeff.
I have actually constructed potential movesets for all of these.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

The characters I know I wouldn't mind seeing:

Toad (Super Mario)
Bowser Jr (Super Mario)
Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
King K. Rool (Donkey Kong)
Little Mac (Punch-Out!!)
Ridley (Metroid)
Tingle (Legend of Zelda)
Samurai Goroh (F-Zero)
Isaac (Golden Sun)
Saki (Sins & Punishment)
Andy (Advance Wars)
Roy (Fire Emblem)
Mewtwo (Pokemon)
Krystal (Star Fox)
Toon Zelda (Legend of Zelda)
Second Trainer (Gold) (Pokemon)
Mega Man (Classic)

Italics are unlockable

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Thank you for your thoughts.
-Knuckles I feel the best choice if another Sonic character is added. Tails may be 2nd most popular, but Knuckles has better moveset potential.
-Simon Belmont is from the first Castlevania for the NES. Considering how many more that have followed, and the number of those that have been on Nintendo consoles... I felt he was similar to MegaMan -a 3rd party character, but one with a long history with Nintendo, and remembered most (best?) for their older games on a Nintendo system.
-Bomberman also falls into these catergories.
-A Boy and his Blob is also guilty of some of this, though the series only had a few games. All three were on Nintendo consoles, however. With the original being released on the Virtual Console just this past year, and the new game just being released as a Wii exclusive. Refueling the almost-forgotten series with newfound popularity.
-Originally, for another Mother/EarthBound rep, I was trying to come up with something for Paula, which would up the female ratio as well. However, I found that she would pretty much be a Ness/Lucas clone. In fact, Ness' moves since SSB(64) were taken from her. I then found potential with Jeff.
I have actually constructed potential movesets for all of these.

Knuckles/Simon: Moveset potential shouldn't make one character > Another. With and Snake around, we really don't need Simon/Knuckles...Ok, well maybe Simon

Bomberman: Owned by Konami, similar to simon. Really, If we're going to have more Third-Parties (Which I support) I'm fine with that, just from different companies. Megaman and a Square Enix character fit the bill quite nicely. (Chocobo & Black Mage, Or maybe Slime instead of Black Mage. Bleh, whatever)

A Boy And His Blob: About as obscure as you can get in Third-Parties. Do I need to say more?

Mother/Earthbound: Research about the Masked Man and Pokey (Heavily Armed, Earthbound form) And/or play said games. I'm sure you'll find more moveset potential and Importance than in Paula/Jeff.

 

[Pieman0920]

As I've said before, I'd tolerate a second Konami or Sega character as long as they weren't part of MGS or Sonic, and rather a seperate series. Thus Simon Belmont would be okay in my mind, but not Knuckles.

And again, I must stress that Isa is shaping up to be a far better pick than Saki. :V

 

[Big-Cat]

As I've said before, I'd tolerate a second Konami or Sega character as long as they weren't part of MGS or Sonic, and rather a seperate series. Thus Simon Belmont would be okay in my mind, but not Knuckles.

And again, I must stress that Isa is shaping up to be a far better pick than Saki. :V

I would still wait until S&P 2 comes out in the US. Saki might be more popular than Isa; maybe not. If you're talking about the Melee skills Isa has, remember that Ness and Lucas, for whatever stupid reason, have moves they never used in the MOTHER series. The same might apply for Saki.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I would still wait until S&P 2 comes out in the US. Saki might be more popular than Isa; maybe not. If you're talking about the Melee skills Isa has, remember that Ness and Lucas, for whatever stupid reason, have moves they never used in the MOTHER series. The same might apply for Saki.

Maybe they have it to represent the whole party in one moveset. Makes me wonder...

Anyways, as for Isa/Saki; I have no idea how S&P did in Japan, but just the fact that S&P2 will be heavily advertised in the US makes me think that If It's to get a playable character, It'll probably be Isa.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

post

This is my last response to you on this subject. It's getting tedious. Glad Chu already covered some of it.


1) Don't give me the "it's just my opinion" line on this, you're trying to argue a fact by saying people don't always want things slow and simple when they're getting into something. Unless you think these people see Brawl speed as molasses, you shouldn't have any reason to want to increase the default. The only other reason I could think you'd want it faster is because you'd be too lazy to use the speed switch yourself.


2) Out of all of my friends, family, friends of family, and family of friends, only one other person plays video games like I do (my twin brother). I have no trouble getting them to try most of the games I have. Turns out people are willing to give any game a chance if it doesn't give them motion sickness or drown itself in story.


3) You seem to think I don't support change at all, despite me having said that the game needs enough change to stand apart from the other games without being an oddball. Fresh, but not unfamiliar. I'm against the kind of "fluff mechanics" that you always suggest, the unnecessary stuff that manages to alienate not only beginners but long-time fans too.

And it wouldn't take months for me to explain why 8 player Smash is a good idea. What would probably take me a few months to explain is the concept that new fans are the lifeblood of any successful game and how to go about getting these new fans. That means building a new perspective for you and I'm not interested in playing teacher.


4) That game moves at molasses speed. Brawl does not. I still don't see why you have a problem with this.



Also props to every person here in favor of Simon.

 

[n88]

Also props to every person here in favor of Simon.

Randy>Simon

...
IMO, Isa does seem to be the more likely pick, with Saki remaining on board as an Assist.
This thread moves too fast for me...