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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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It is highly likely that it was Pluse and Minum, just they wouldnt act independtly like Popo and Nana.

As for Story the idea about characters playing levels liek their games wouldnt work for some...Fire emblem for example.

EDIT: I'm still intrested in where this Super Meter idea is going.
 

Paper Mario Master

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K new topic then. Like i said a few days ago if brawl came out before pokemon diamond and pearl was released, Plusle & Minun would probably be in brawl right? I feel when they make ssb4 the should have a pokemon representing each generation. So i must ask is Plusle and Minun a good idea? When i found out they were in the forbiden 7 i didnt really care but later i thought about it and i think having another pair like the ice climbers would be a great idea.

And about story mode they should keep the brawl story mode but have a new feature called mini quest where a charcter does a level which is like the levels they do in their real games with a boss at the end.

Mario does one of his classic levels with Hammer bro. as a boss
Kirby does Green greens with whispy woods as a boss etc.
Plusle and Minun are not a good idea.......

I do NOT want the story mode to be like that......I say we should have a real story
mode with more of a story to it that involves the characters' backgrounds...
Like the baddies (wolf included this time) are trying to gain energy from all the different universes.......this includes the Toon universe and the PM universe if he gets in. The good guys hafta play through a level in their own universe (not the weird SSB universe) and then get to the end and go through a portal or warp or something to get to the SSB world to stop the baddies.

Somethin like that......whatdaya think?

I strongly disagree that an FE level wouldn't work (well by the way I have it up here it would work)
 

Neo Exdeath

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Does anyone else think that the next story mode should not have any of this "subspace" crud? If Smash is meant to be a crossover, then there shouldn't be a new group of villains in it. The only ones I'm okay with are Master Hand and Crazy Hand.
 

Paper Mario Master

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Does anyone else think that the next story mode should not have any of this "subspace" crud? If Smash is meant to be a crossover, then there shouldn't be a new group of villains in it. The only ones I'm okay with are Master Hand and Crazy Hand.
Yeah what you said.....and maybe Galleom........and that's pretty much what mine would be like.......there might be references to the SSE though but no Tabuu.
 

Finman702

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How popular are they, exactly? I need more info then "they're more popular than you think".
I like how you ignored the rest of my post, lol.

They're two of the most popular second gen pokemon in Japan. Although I don't understand why.

But I'm not sure how the would work in brawl. If you as me, Pikachu+Ice Climbers=Broken. XD
 

Finman702

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*facedesks*

Oops, sorry. Noobish question, but what are PAC files?
Lol.
Uh the PAC files I was referring to were what hold a characters effects/model/moveset/etc.
And now thinking back... Maybe they DO have seperate PACs you may be right... I can't remember. All I know for SURE is they share the same texture files.
 

Omega Geno X

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-Megaman
-Zero
-GENO!!!! (he's been my fav since mario RPG)
-Mallow maybe...
-dr. robotnik (not eggman that sounds dumb)
-knuckles
-tails
-shadow(all the new characters are mumbo jumbo)
- a new adventure somewhat similar to the brawl where characters are introduced
- improved online play
- so so so many more options for the level editor
idk i always have ideas but don't always remember them lol :)
 

Neo Exdeath

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-Megaman
-Zero
-GENO!!!! (he's been my fav since mario RPG)
-Mallow maybe...
-dr. robotnik (not eggman that sounds dumb)
-knuckles
-tails
-shadow(all the new characters are mumbo jumbo)
- a new adventure somewhat similar to the brawl where characters are introduced
- improved online play
- so so so many more options for the level editor
idk i always have ideas but don't always remember them lol :)
Woah, tiger. We have to have more first party reps before we can have all those third party reps. Plus, Geno and Zero and any other Sonic reps are not getting in.
 

Jerome

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But I'm not sure how the would work in brawl. If you as me, Pikachu+Ice Climbers=Broken. XD
Plusle and Minun wouldn't be broken and they wouldn't be Pikachu clones. They would be semi-clones like Luigi, Lucas, and Toon Link.

Plusle and Minun's moveset:
B Thunder Jolt
B →← Helping Hand (won't work if partner is KO'd)
B ↑Agility
B ↓ Discharge
 
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The fact that they can be separated and still perform indpendantly is indictive with PAC files. The fact alone is proof of separate PAC files....I believe
 

Big-Cat

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I think this sums up your entire train of thought.

You have a problem with items in general, that's fine. You wish the Final Smash wasn't an item, so a system that enables characters to earn them naturally would be superior.

Am I correct so far?
Close, but not quite. I have nothing against items; in fact, I play with items when I get bored of no items matches. I just think items are something that should not be part of competitive play.

Of course, we, the players, made these rules, not the developers.

@SuperMeter stuff

I've decided to post my entire thoughts on the matter, because I'm bored.

I'm against it, mostly because there's the question of criteria for filling up the meter. Do you fill it up by winning in general? As Toise pointed out, this has problems. Too one-sided. So what if you got it for losing? P1 ****s P2 for half a stock, then takes a Triforce Slash to the face as a reward. IMO, that's a lot more unfair than randomness. So what if the criteria for the meter was something not necessarily offensive or defensive? This would affect gameplay more than a Smash Ball, because people would just focus on fillling their meter up for the entire battle.

Plus, you're kidding yourself if you think that the competitive community would ever use any kind of super attack if the option was present to turn it off. If anything, large groups of people (Not competitives) would whine about how much better the Smash Ball was.

Plus, as Toise, said, it over-complicates things. What I'd really llike to see? An HP gauge for the Smash Ball. Just so you knew how hard to hit it. I think that'd be good.
I mentioned this in an earlier post:
Anyway, I read the article and I see what you're talking about. In its current state, my super meter idea has an extreme slippery slope since the winning player will win, making it a one-sided match.

I suppose one way to prevent a snowball effect would be to increase the meter with damage taken as well. This way, the opponent can't simply attack you to death since he/she is now aware that you can turn the match around under the right conditions. Either that or a revenge meter, but I prefer the former.
What makes you think the competitive community WOULDN'T be partial to it? If the attacks are not over powered like Sonic's Final Smash, I don't see why there would be an outcry against it.

How would a super meter complicate things? I don't seem to get an answer for this.
 

Wizzerd

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Neo Exdeath said:
The reason I'm so sure is that only Nana can do meteor smashes and Nana's power is lower then Popo's
They both have the same power level. Trust me, I should know. ;)

And about the Plusle and Minun discussion... they were planned for Brawl, but it seems most likely that they would just be dual Pikachu clones (look at the rest of the Forbidden 7, all of them either had a moveset already or could be an easy clone). In any case, the fact that there was only one file instead of two for them makes it seem less likely. pra_mai can in fact be translated to "Every Character", or... Mii.
 

Finman702

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They both have the same power level. Trust me, I should know. ;)

And about the Plusle and Minun discussion... they were planned for Brawl, but it seems most likely that they would just be dual Pikachu clones (look at the rest of the Forbidden 7, all of them either had a moveset already or could be an easy clone). In any case, the fact that there was only one file instead of two for them makes it seem less likely. pra_mai can in fact be translated to "Every Character", or... Mii.
If youre right, that was the best dicsion made in the game. That would have been aweful.
 

n88

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@KumaOso
First off, how would adding an extra gameplay element not make Smash more complicated? Anyway, filling up a meter by taking damage=bad. Try playing VS. Mode in Force Unleashed if you don't understand why. The competitive community wouldn't be partial to it because it could be perceived as broken/bad for competitive play, etc. Admittedly, I don't know that competitives would reject the super meter, but if I had to bet, I know right where my money would be going.

@Plusle Minun
First off, nothing can be concluded by files. Plusle and Minun wouldn't necessarily work the same way as the ICs. I suppose it could be Mii, but I thought Sakurai didn't like the idea of Miis in Smash?
 

Wizzerd

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n88_2004 said:
I suppose it could be Mii, but I thought Sakurai didn't like the idea of Miis in Smash?
Perhaps, but it's a -potential- explanation for who pra_mai was.
 

n88

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@Wizzerd

So, the possibilities are...

1) Mii
2) Plusle and Minun
3) Second Random Button
4) Evil plot to drive Smash fanboys crazy
 

Wizzerd

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n88_2004 said:
1) Mii
2) Plusle and Minun
3) Second Random Button
4) Evil plot to drive Smash fanboys crazy
Yep. I'm just saying that it isn't 100% guarunteed that it's Plusle and Minun.
 

Jerome

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@Wizzerd

So, the possibilities are...

1) Mii
2) Plusle and Minun
3) Second Random Button
4) Evil plot to drive Smash fanboys crazy
Lol, well i think its Plusle and Minun. What i think what happened is that nintendo wanted a popular pokemon from the latest generation. While brawl was being made Diamond and Pearl came out making Lucario the most popular pokemon from the latest generation. So, the stop working on Plusle and Minun and started on Lucario. That could explain the small files. I think if brawl came b4 diamond and pearl the roster would have been:

Pikacku
Pokemon Trainer
Plusle and Minun
Jigglypuff

Nintendo should focus less on generation 1 pokemon and have a pokemon representing each generation. This is what i hope to see in SSB4:

Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer Gold (Chikorita, Quilava, Feraligater)
Plusle and Minun
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Generation 5 Pokemon

I know 6 reps. is alot but i feel this roster for pokemon is perfect IMO. I want Mewtwo back but there are so many newer and popular pokemon that his chances of returning is slim.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Close, but not quite. I have nothing against items; in fact, I play with items when I get bored of no items matches. I just think items are something that should not be part of competitive play.

Of course, we, the players, made these rules, not the developers.
What makes you think the competitive community WOULDN'T be partial to it? If the attacks are not over powered like Sonic's Final Smash, I don't see why there would be an outcry against it.
Let me reiterate something I sorta hinted at earlier:

Every competitive game revolves around the strongest options available. If the strongest options have a massive advantage over the alternatives, this becomes more pronounced (which is why stuff like items and Meta Knight are such a big deal).

With your system, the metagame will revolve around building and maintaining your Super Meter to use Super Special moves and Final Smashes. Why focus on regular moves when these two are clearly superior? In that sense, it's really not much better than playing with items. The only difference is that items can spawn anywhere.

At that point the competitive players will A) turn it off if the option is available or B) denounce the game and play something else. Kinda sucks when something is rejected by the people you made it for. Even worse, the average players (99.5% of the total fanbase) won't really care for it much either.

If you don't believe that'll happen, ask the better players on this site, see what they think.
 

Big-Cat

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@KumaOso
First off, how would adding an extra gameplay element not make Smash more complicated? Anyway, filling up a meter by taking damage=bad. Try playing VS. Mode in Force Unleashed if you don't understand why. The competitive community wouldn't be partial to it because it could be perceived as broken/bad for competitive play, etc. Admittedly, I don't know that competitives would reject the super meter, but if I had to bet, I know right where my money would be going.
Read my last post again. I said that taking damage was another way, along with the aforementioned ones, to fill up the meter.

Now that that's done, I'll continue with the rest of my post.

Answer me how it would make it complicated. If anything, this could be a new gameplay element to help justify a sequel. We can't always have the same stuff in each game. We'd get bored of the series. Adding new items, characters, stages, and music isn't enough to warrant a sequel. You're better off making an update of the current game in that case.

As for the competitive community, I'm confident that they would be welcoming it as long as it 's not overpowering.

@Toise
Where can I discuss this with the competitive players?
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Would assume Brawl Tactical Discussion, except for SmashBoards is super anal about being on-topic and whatnot (and since this is a SSB4... yeah). Alternatively, you could try GameFAQs or any other gaming site where people play Brawl.

Keep in mind:
- Even the non-competitive players' opinions are important (if not two hundred times moreso)
- Theory =/= Practice; see if you can find people who have played games with this sort of system
 

Big-Cat

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Would assume Brawl Tactical Discussion, except for SmashBoards is super anal about being on-topic and whatnot (and since this is a SSB4... yeah). Alternatively, you could try GameFAQs or any other gaming site where people play Brawl.

Keep in mind:
- Even the non-competitive players' opinions are important (if not two hundred times moreso)
- Theory =/= Practice; see if you can find people who have played games with this sort of system
It would seem my best bets for asking this would be Shoryuken (considering I got the meter idea from SF4) and the IGN boards. I don't want to come off spammy if I'm only going to post once in some forum. I suppose though NSider 2 might be a good choice.
 

Starphoenix

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Would assume Brawl Tactical Discussion, except for SmashBoards is super anal about being on-topic and whatnot (and since this is a SSB4... yeah). Alternatively, you could try GameFAQs or any other gaming site where people play Brawl.

Keep in mind:
- Even the non-competitive players' opinions are important (if not two hundred times moreso)
- Theory =/= Practice; see if you can find people who have played games with this sort of system
If Kuma went to the Gamefaqs Brawl board gathering input for the super meter idea it would end up with everyone talking about mama weegee, Steve, and yelling combo breaker. The actual intelligent posters get drowned out by the clanging brass that is the immature.

Believe me that is what it feels like on the TvC board currently...

Also, real quick note about Shoryuken. Not everyone there is to keen of Smash Bros as a series, but I am probably sure you knew that already.
 

Big-Cat

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I didn't even consider GameFAQs, but that's one reason not to go there.

Anyway, I've started a topic on the idea over at Shoryuken. This time, everything's in one post.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=7498933#post7498933

Also, real quick note about Shoryuken. Not everyone there is to keen of Smash Bros as a series, but I am probably sure you knew that already.
I'm aware of this. One time, there was a thread making fun of the Smashboards people. I'll also have to check once a day or so in order to see any replies. In the morning, I'll post it in the IGN boards.
 

BBQTV

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pokemon is nintendos money maker which is why i think they replaced mewtwo with Lulu for advertiesment
 

n88

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Read my last post again. I said that taking damage was another way, along with the aforementioned ones, to fill up the meter.

a)Now that that's done, I'll continue with the rest of my post.

b)Answer me how it would make it complicated. If anything, this could be a new gameplay element to help justify a sequel. We can't always have the same stuff in each game. We'd get bored of the series. Adding new items, characters, stages, and music isn't enough to warrant a sequel. You're better off making an update of the current game in that case.

c)As for the competitive community, I'm confident that they would be welcoming it as long as it 's not overpowering.
a) Yes, I'm aware of that. Taking damage, either in combination with other things, or alone, is a bad way. Like I said, play VS. Mode in Force Unleashed. You're about to kill the otehr guy, when sudenly, he gets his super attack, and ****s you.

b) You've got a bit of a point, there, but adding a Super Meter wouldn;t really justify making a sequel at all. But seriously, more game features=more complicated. It's that simple. The fact that you're adding a new element makes it more complicated.

c) I pretty much agree with Toise here. Aside from that, FS's should be overpowering. You're talking about a massive nerf to FS's in general, which kinda ruins the point.
 

Big-Cat

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a) Yes, I'm aware of that. Taking damage, either in combination with other things, or alone, is a bad way. Like I said, play VS. Mode in Force Unleashed. You're about to kill the otehr guy, when sudenly, he gets his super attack, and ****s you.

b) You've got a bit of a point, there, but adding a Super Meter wouldn;t really justify making a sequel at all. But seriously, more game features=more complicated. It's that simple. The fact that you're adding a new element makes it more complicated.

c) I pretty much agree with Toise here. Aside from that, FS's should be overpowering. You're talking about a massive nerf to FS's in general, which kinda ruins the point.
a) I don't see anything wrong with that. It just means that you simply can't repeat tactics you did before because you may set up for the conditions for them to couter. I'll give you an example of this with Street Fighter IV (I know you're probably sick of this).

Rose's Ultra, a type of revenge super, can be used, but not exclusively for, against the opponent as an anti-air attack. She may be near death, but the opponent has to be cautious in using any laggy attacks at close range or using an air attack. If the opponent does either, he's open to a can of shamwow because he can't defend himself.

Anyway, your Force Unleashed example is like comparing apples to oranges. These are two different genres.

b) I see how new elements can complicate things, but it would depend on the execution of everything. As for the sequel thing, that was just something tossed out there since Sakurai said more characters wouldn't be enough to justify a sequel alone.

Let me ask you this: Would things be easier to deal with if super specials were executed with the X button and the Final Smash with the R button?

c) According to Sakurai, the final smash is something like a powerful and personalized hammer (or maybe not): http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/basic/basic02.html

To me, that's basically a super move. Final Smashes may be nerfed, but this would depend on the character. Obviously, Sonic's would get nerfed big time, but Zero Suit Samus may get a more practical move.


Also, to anyone reading this and planning to get Tatunoko vs. Capcom, look into getting an arcade stick and try using it in Brawl. I plan on doing this myself, but I'm curious to see how a fightstick would work in Brawl if everything is mapped right. I'm saying this because I question whether or not Gamecube Controllers will still be a viable option in the future.
 

n88

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@KumaOso

Oh, I'm not sick of it. I'm not arguing out of any personal thing. I'm arguing because I disagree with you and I like arguing. If your best way of arguing involves giving examples, I'm A-Okay w/that.

I'll try to get back to you in a little while. I'm trying to work on something for Make Your Move at the moment, and I don't have much time to work with.

@Barbecue Television

Lucario did not replace Mewtwo. Sonic and Jiggly did.
 
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Keep it up guys, this is getting quite intresting...

Also anyone who feels it neccesary to change the subject because you want another shallow discussion of something that will generate a post or two from everyone else...don't...or at least wait til a lull in the conversation and/or a conclusion.
 

n88

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Awright, writer's block has struck, so I'm back here again.

a) Taking damage may work for Street Fighter, but I don't think it would work so well for Smash. Mostly because of the fact that damage does not guarantee death in Smash. For example, on stages w/low ceilings, Meta Knight could fly up of-screen. He would take Bubble Damage, thus filling up his super meter.

Let's say, for another example, that P1 (Bowser) is playing against P2 (Jigglypuff). Bowser is at low damage, but thanks to the damage he's been taking over the course of the battle, his super meter is practically full. He'll get a FS in one more hit. And Jiggly's one stock up. That totally won't lead to Jigglypuff stalling or anything.

Plus, it makes Fox's blaster kinda stupid.

Force Unleashed analogy isn't that bad, because VS in FU is basically a really crappy fighting game. The gameplay is fine, but the whole thing is wrecked by the super meter. But, w/e, I'll drop it for now.

(I always thought Apples and Oranges were pretty comparable; Fruit, Grow on Trees, Round, Have Peels, Can Be Turned into Very Tasty Juice, Both Warm Colors, etc.)

b) It's not necessarily that the current execution/your idea would be too complicated to handle. It's that Smash has always been so simplistic, and a lot of people would like to keep it that way.

c) Considering that very rarely do characters go through major changes, I'm not sure Sakurai would be willing to totally revamp all their FS's. Because, with your super system, a lot of FS's would have to be dropped for balance.
 
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