[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Clownbot]

Race to the Finish ftw

What do people think about the Trophy system for the next game? Personally, I would like to see:

Classic - Character Trophy
Boss Battles - Smash! Character Trophy
All-Star - Final Smash Trophy

I agree. Also, perhaps you can get other trophies by meeting certain criteria while playing (i.e. beating Classic with Link in the Shadow Link costume gets the Shadow Link trophy, etc.)

 

[drag0nscythe]

Race to the Finish ftw

What do people think about the Trophy system for the next game? Personally, I would like to see:

Classic - Character Trophy
Boss Battles - Smash! Character Trophy
All-Star - Final Smash Trophy

Sounds interesting. I would like to see this.

Classic - Smash stuffed toy (similar to N64 style.) of character
Mini Adventure mode (Like Melee adventure mode) - Character Trophy
Boss Battles - Smash! Character Trophy
All-Star - Final Smash Trophy

just a minor change really.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Race to the Finish ftw

What do people think about the Trophy system for the next game? Personally, I would like to see:

Classic - Character Trophy
Boss Battles - Smash! Character Trophy
All-Star - Final Smash Trophy

Come to think of it, the Smash! trophies (the palette-swapped ones, right?) were removed between Melee and Brawl.

It would be handy to have them back, since they're informative.

Classic - Smash stuffed toy (similar to N64 style.) of character

Now there's something I'd like to see!

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I have no idea why they took Board the Platform and Race to the Finish out.....Race to the Finish should have a multiplayer mode

and I liked the smash trophies it told you what the characters moves were and stuff like that...

 

[StinkomanFan]

@ClownBot Oh, You mean like certain things like say, winning a battle on Pictochat with G&W get you a related trophy. Sort of like Achievements?

 

[Clownbot]

@ClownBot Oh, You mean like certain things like say, winning a battle on Pictochat with G&W get you a related trophy. Sort of like Achievements?

Pretty much. It's basically the same as some of the things you might find on the Challenges table in Brawl, which I imagine would increase in size (if it returned) in SSB4.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Pretty much. It's basically the same as some of the things you might find on the Challenges table in Brawl, which I imagine would increase in size (if it returned) in SSB4.

Hopefully, we'll be allowed to break ALL of the squares with hammers next time (blasted intense Boss Battle mode ).

The europeans had that privilege.

 

[Wizzerd]

I'm sure you're all wondering where I've been; I lost computer access for a while and just got it back. However, I've managed to keep up and finish commenting everything I missed... and everything before that (wary)

[collapse=This is the last time I'll do this Rool! I swear! (crying)]

Magmortar​

At first I was somewhat skeptical of the concept of an aerialist Magmortar. Then I realized that he’s more of an aerialist in the sense that he wants the foe in the air, so he can hit them more easily with his Fire Blasts and anti-air game. It’s a very unique concept that I’m surprised hasn’t been touched on much if at all before.

And it manages to tie together all of Magmortar’s myriad concepts, from Lava Plume to SmokeScreen to Earth Power to everything else. I was worried that all the concepts would end up disjointed in the end, but they all ended up tied together quite nicely. Magmortar is still more of a versatile character, but he does versatility very well. (y)

That’s not to say he’s without flaws. I’ll repeat agi in saying that Flame Body is a little underwhelming next to the other specials, and that he seems a little overbearing standing in too much lava, where the foe has to jump to hit him, exposing themselves, or stay put and keep getting camped at. In addition, I doubt you could “persuade” the foe to get into the air simply by using things like your jab if he’s as good against aerial foes as you say. Finally, no matter how much setup you’ve done, it sounds like Eruption would be difficult to land, as it would be possible to get over Earth Power faster than Magmortar can prepare it.

Spoiler

Though you’re right that he should be able to actually learn it. Heatran does get it by event, but only with a Quiet nature that lowers his speed. Way to go, Game Freak (no)

I enjoyed Magmortar a lot in the end, more than most other sets this contest, and certainly more than Hariyama, who was no slouch. Great job meanie, this looks like a fun set for matchups

Spoiler

though you didn’t make any of your own (wary)

.​

Jace Beleren​

Jace’s specials introduce a strong concept in prediction, which I don’t think has been touched on this much since Espeon. Evcn then, Espeon mainly predicted with his Sixth Sense, and Jace more focuses on the ways he punishes with his prediction than how he does it. So it’s a decently unique concept.

Though I’m a little skeptical on why you would want to use Counterspell on a shield when you can just grab them. Given the lag on a miss I think it might not be as useful as you say. I also don’t really like when exact lengths of time are used for grabbing moves, but that’s more of a pet peeve than anything else. The specials are still pretty good anyway.

But from there... well, the rest of the set doesn’t really live up to the good specials. They don’t really seem to have much to do with the prediction theme, and while they do get some mention in the playstyle, you don’t tell us how they relate to the prediction theme.

Also, your writing could use some improvement. agi hit the nail on the head about the grab - you don’t really have anything to say, so why not just compare it to someone’s? In addition, you talk about things like IASA frames a lot, and I’m sure that most people in MYM don’t know what these things are. If you’re going to mention things like these, it would help if you explained them at some point.

Jace is better than B.B. Hood at least, so good job there. I did enjoy Jace’s specials, so hopefully for your next set you’ll be able to expand what you did there to the rest of the set. And I’m sorry if I’m seeming discouraging; this is only your second third set anyhow, and it's a good set by that standard.​

Q​

So far Q seems to be fairly well-liked. I apologize for being contrary, but I'm unfortunately leaning toward's agi's diagnosis. So Total Destruction is pretty interesting, I'll give you that - it's a nice twist on Ryuk's Death Note, even if it sounds predictable.

But beyond that, a lot of Q is just ways of wasting time, which I'm not so sure about. Some of these moves are bound to become redundant with so many of them. In addition, wasting time is only useful towards the end when you're just about to blow... they can escape from you just as easily whether you have five seconds or one left on the counter.

And the stuff about the close-ranged game unfortunately doesn't lend much to the playstyle. Q already has a fine concept in Total Destruction, so why not sell it more? For a final nitpick that fits nowhere else, the added effect of the Up Special wouldn't prevent edgehogging much; most of the point of edgehogging is to take advantage of the invincibility frames you gain that would make you immune to being spiked. I also don't see how it can be used as an emergency KO move as you say in the playstyle given the foe has to be on the ledge for it to work.

So a pretty negative comment unfortunately. That being said, I did enjoy Strike Man (though this seems to be an unpopular viewpoint...) and what you've told me about Slowbro sounds interesting. I can see why other people like Q, if that's any consolation =)​

Kamek​

Given how relatively much you did for such simple characters in the past, I expected this to be a big step up given that you chose a character with actual moveset potential. I wasn't mistaken - Kamek was much better than Pokey (aaaand everything else you made).

It's a sheerly fun set, with all kinds of stage manipulations and move interactions abounding. The move interactions also seemed very natural overall; all the stuff you can do with Shy Guys was a highlight (the awkward input for creating them aside). Even without the Shy Guys, there's plenty of fun things to play around with; Koopaport/Platform Raise/Lower and Stage Spell/Triple Hex are good examples.

That's not to say he does move interactions perfectly; there were a couple that felt sort of random, like Fireball/Fireball (lol repeated move names), and some that felt too predictable to be all that useful, like Spell Prep/Magic Burst and Fireball/Fireball again. It still does move interactions well on the whole, mind you.

In the end, what holds back Kamek from being truly great in my eyes is that, as cool as it all is, it doesn't do much that's new for camping/trapping/stage manipulation. I still like it on the whole, certainly more than your previous works, but I didn't enjoy it quite as much as some other commenters. Still, don't get me wrong; it's a very good set and makes you practically a lock for Most Improved.​

Childre​

I'm going to skip over the controversy surrounding this set, so forgive me if my comment is too positive or too negative or too whatever it is you don't want >.>

Childre is fundamentally a pretty average newcomer set, really. The stuff with freezing is interesting, and while it doesn't quite do for freezing what Arbok did for poisoning, it uses the concept well enough. The Permafrost and its interactions with Childre's freezing moves is probably the set's main highlight.

But unfortunately, Childre stumbles in places. To begin with, there's not enough variety in the ways he gets powered up against frozen foes; as it is right now, he might as well use only DTilt or FSmash based on whether he wants to damage rack or KO. In addition, you seem to have some odd fixation on the DThrow, which is neither all that interesting nor all that relevant, with him being able to essentially use it with another input in FTilt and still use it under Icebound Heart. Speaking of Icebound Heart, I'm not that fond of it, as the effects feel sort of random and you don't elaborate that much on how it's supposed to be used, which I assumed you would do in the playstyle section...

...but there isn't one, which is the biggest flaw. I remember you saying something about the reader being able to figure it out on their own, which I disagree with; a playstyle section is also meant to elaborate on how things fit together, and besides, would, say, Super Macho Man be nearly as good if we had to figure out how to break shields on our own?

But it's a newcomer set, after all, so I can't begrudge it too heavily. It's truly not bad for a newcomer set, and if you fix what I mentioned, there's nowhere to go but up.​

Ken Masters​

It's obviously not your best work, but it was also obviously never meant to be. But still, the base concept works perfectly fine; get charged up and fire up! I didn't really like the boosts for doing badly though; to use an awful analogy, it's like Pokemon happiness. You don't get as many buffs for doing it and it's very hard to maintain. It's not that big of a deal overall, though.

The Side Special I'm not that fond of either; it's basically a give-the-foe-a-buff-and-a-nerf move, which seem sort of stale as a concept. The smashes seem to do disturbingly low damage too, and the extension of Down Smash feels like something that should be a reward for charging. I'd also like you to say something about the grab animation, even if it's just to say that it's standard...

...but I don't think I should continue nitpicking, because Ken wasn't designed to be your best work, he was designed to keep the thread alive and to be a fun read! (If I'm wrong I'm sorry x_X) It succeeded on both counts, so nice job TWILT.​

Haunter​

I thought Arbok encompassed all that could be done with the background, but by treating the background as essentially another plane, Haunter is completely and wonderfully unique. What's great about it is that you're incorporating something that (to a degree) was already there, just ready to be exploited.

I didn't have much of a problem with the move interactions themselves, actually; Sludge Bomb/Will-o-Wisp was probably the only one I disliked that much. The thing is that Haunter isn't nearly as fitting to use move interactions as someone like Kamek - Kamek is known for plotting and for applying boosts, whereas Haunter is known for being largely passive.

But what violates that last part more is the comboing part. Haunter should be landing hits on occasion, and reactively; comboing has him land many of them in spurts, which is the exact opposite of what he should be doing.

That being said, I actually enjoyed Haunter just as much as Kamek; Kamek might have had slightly better execution, but the fact that he was doing something that had been done so much before and Haunter is doing something new is enough to put himon the same level in my eyes. Very good job.​

Rocket Executive Hugo​

Hugo was a bit of a tough nut to swallow. It took me a bit to realize that all his Pokemon are controlled by different parts of the controller, which you don't say that clearly in the beginning, and the attacks sound difficult enough to manage without having to control four other characters at the same time. I'm sure there are exploits for both Hugo and the foe, and it all sounds rather overwhelming even with some controlled by an AI.

But while it's difficult to get into, it comes down very smooth once you manage to. I never enjoyed Hunter J much if at all, but unlike Hunter J, Hugo actually has reasons to work with his Pokemon in tandem due not being able to score a KO from 50% without any aid - maybe a couple too many, but still. I'm particularly fond of Machamp and his concept of directional grabs, as well as the turning shenanigans.

As far as miscellaneous nitpicks go, I have a couple. You act like being up against a wall prevents you from turning around in Barrier, which could be a specific property of Barrier but if so you don't really identify it as such. The Final Smash is a little underwhelming for such an involved character

Spoiler

though yeah... I guess it doesn't really matter... (d)

, and Lick and Pursuit on Golbat was a little odd.

On the other hand, I wanted to give a nod to you doing an OC. You're not the first MYMer I'd expect to do one, but the backstory has a really Warlordian flavor to it (as does the character (smirk2)) which makes it pretty interesting. Nice job with the characterization overall, and I agree with meanie about liking Raticate's personality.

It's a tough nut to swallow and it laughs in the face of feasibility, but it more than makes up for that with clever concepts and design. A Warlord set through and through and definitely one I enjoyed =)​

Cacturne​

I actually didn't find this a bad set at all, even if it didn't quite reach Skarmory Scarmiglione's level. The playstyle felt rather weak on the first read, but it seems more and more clever as I think about it - dealing damage and KOing against approaching foes is in a way like a reversed Doppelori. The implementation of Sandstorm is also clever, when the easy way out is to make it screenwide. In fact, I really liked how you implemented things like Ingrain and Leech Seed without making them exactly like they were in Cradily, Abomasnow, Ludicolo, Venusaur and virtually every Grass-type Pokeset ever made, even if it's relatively minor.

On the other hand, it sounds a little counterintuitive to force an approach by forcing the foe back, particularly by the time that they can't get past it. Similarly, making yourself lighter is a rather strange way of recovering given that it makes you much more vulnerable to the knockback of edgeguarding. In addition, the organization wasn't as strong as Scarmiglione's and teeters towards random symbols at times, and could use some color codes (which I'm pretty sure you still aren't using) and fonts in places instead. I actually didn't find anything wrong with your writing style though, it's actually above average if you ask me >.>

I had some other concerns when I first read Cacturne a long while back, but they've all faded away by now - literally, because of the admirable way you keep working even after a set is posted. (Y) I also don't need to talk about the excellent matchups. Even if Cacturne wasn't as objectively good a set as Scarmiglione, he's around as fun to read, so nicely done :3​

Dimitri​

It's nice to see you stuck around after the whole Glameow debacle, so let's get right to it! To begin with, the organization could really use some improvement; using larger fonts is a bad idea because it makes sets look longer than they actually are, and people can be intimidated by big scroll bars, even if the set's still very short. You also should size up individual move headers, and use different colors, not just from SWF's flimsy palette but by using some color codes. It's also a bad idea to talk as if the audience knows the character and series already, as you don't introduce what game Dimitri is from nor what things like the Klaww Gang and Clockwerk Tailfeathers really are.

You could also stand to add more detail; there are percents, but you also should always mention lag and range, as well as move-specific details like how far a Clockwerk Tailfeather flies, whatever that is. In addition, however existent the percents are, they're far too low and could stand to be universally buffed by 3-5%. Also, you don't explain what you mean by "trapping" in the BAir/DThrow.

I could go on about other things, but the most important thing that's missing is playstyle. How exactly does Dimitri play? Is he a "camper" that threatens the foe from long range with projectiles? Is he a "trap character" that sets lingering hitboxes for the foe to wander into? By adding playstyle, you'll be able to more carefully define the way the character plays to emphasize ideas and fit the character.

I'm sure you'll pick up on these things if you stick around and continue to read sets, which I hope you do! We'll be happy to have you if you improve these things =)​

Napalm Man​

Warlord beat me to saying this by a long time, but Napalm Man does have move interactions. They're not nearly as prominent as in, say, Sheep Man, but stuff like the Beacon and Cease Fire are very interaction-based. I of course don't mind this, and move interactions are certainly less prominent here than in certain other sets by you, I just needed to point that out =P

So does the lack of interactions make Napalm Man a bad set? Of course not. I think you've still retained a general sense of "interconnectedness", which means it's still an agi set through and through. Unfortunately, Warlord's right about the "mindgames"; standing out of the way of the beacons eliminates any mindgames the air strike has. Of course he can force them into the zone, but there still aren't many mindgames when they stay in or get hit or successfully get out and don't.

In addition, the Up Special stuck out to me in particular as an overpowered move; it's going to have to deal a lot more 10% to Napalm Man to balance out a nearly lagless KO move... okay, so the range is bad, but it pretty much contradicts what you say about the foe wanting to get as close as possible to Napalm Man (so he cant sat up hees krystals).

Still, I did like Napalm Man, more than Empoleon, though the latter aged badly for me. The base concept isn't the most interesting ever but it's certainly feasible, and stuff like the treads keep it an interesting read. Pretty good work, agi.​

Skeleton​

So I guess I'll be commenting this as if it's a Rool set, which it is. Whee!

So back when I thought it was a newcomer set I was going to comment relatively positively... but now that I know it's coming from you, I can't help but be a little more critical.

So the base concept is very interesting, I'll give you that. Thing is, it's so difficult to envision with the excessively low detail, much like Father Time. How does removing parts influence your weight and movement? How does this interact with KOs? Would it theoretically be possible to stall by tossing away all your parts just as soon as they join with you? The organization makes it difficult to read too, what with the universal color, unusual font and smaller text.

I also have a variety of smaller nitpicks - the FSmash has no charged percentage, and the upwards running not only gives Skeleton an infinite recovery, but the ability to stall indefinitely. In addition, I don't see how Skeleton is particularly offensive once he reduces himself down. I guess it's because he has nothing left to do but be offensive, but... there could have been a more interesting approach to this =/

But I digress; it's a Rool set for sure and so the ideas are very good regardless of the somewhat spotty execution. If nothing else, it lets us know that you're still getting ideas (wary)​

Amane​

First off, I'll reiterate what everyone else said - the supreme lack of options without mana could potentially screw Amane over, regardless of her ability to quickly regenerate it. Anyway, the most unique concept here is the connection between healing and ammo regeneration. Definitely a rather clever concept, even if it essentially makes her only healing move an ammo regeneration move that heals at the same time.

My big problem with Amane was something similar to magic syndrome. While I'm sure it's in-character for Amane to use so many elements to attack, most of the moves feel like they were designed to very closely resemble what they did in her game. This means you're sacrificing opportunities to fine-tune moves. I could be wrong, of course, given that I haven't played or even heard of Devil Survivor until now; it's just a general vibe that I picked up on.

I don't really have much to add here, but just know that this was an improvement over Gengar and I'm sure you'll continue to improve from here.​

Yuzu​

Oh look, another TWILTY set! Since you actually put all of your effort into this unlike Ken, I'll put all of my energy into commenting it.

What I'm most concerned about is, much like Amane, many of the moves seem to be directly ported from her game. While this could be a good thing, things like Charm are pretty much random creativity. In addition, things like Ice Stairs seem a little vaguely worded and also sort of random creativity. Also, you don't really explain what things like "mind energy" or "a foul stench" even LOOK like, which isn't as big a deal but still something that could be improved on.

In addition,Yuzu's direct attacks don't seem to be all that relevant either. Once you get beyond the interactions they don't seem to do much but be in-character. A good interaction should both be natural and relevant, and these don't seem to be either.

Overall, I didn't really enjoy Yuzu that much in comparison to Miles... The playstyle is sort of stilted and doesn't really exist outside of move interactions, and too many of the moves didn't do much of anything. It's still a decent set, but not on the level of some of your others.​

Strong Bad​

Wow, nice to see somebody who goes so far back make a set! I'm sorry for skipping over your others, but since you've tried to factor in the criticisms you recieved on earlier ones it would be a bit of a waste of time.

To begin... wow is this difficult to read. You've thankfully cut the big font from your previous sets here, but all of the pictures make it look crowded and longer than it needs to be (and nobody wants to read a set that looks too long), and in a lot of cases they don't explain much about the move. In addition, while being in character is never a bad thing, trying to make as many moves as you can moves the character used in the game isn't a good idea. It's better to only add moves that go with the playstyle.

And that leads into the next thing I have to say; playstyle should be something you're thinking about since starting a set, not something you determine at the end. For example, you might decide that you want to make a camper (projectile user), and then add spacing moves and projectile moves as you go along since they go with the playstyle. I know darth meanie talked about this already, but it's important so I wanted to reiterate it.

That being said, you're doing pretty well otherwise considering you haven't made a set since MYM2 (MYM3?) ignoring your three other recent ones; your detail level could be a little higher but is much better than it could be and nothing stuck out as particularly unbalanced. In the end, Strong Bad wasn't perfect, but considering how much the standards have changed since MYM2, it's pretty impressive.​

RTS Army​

The RTS Army was certainly an interesting set. Here we have something reminiscient of MasterWarlord's Rocket Executive Hugo in controlling multiple characters onscreen at once, an interesting concept with plenty of room to explore, as you did here. The cursor, grunts, tanks and helicopters combine to form what could have been a very good set.

Unfortunately, the key phrase there is "could have been". To be sure, RTS Army has an interesting concept behind it, but it isn't pulled off spectacularly. The way the mechanic works isn't explained perfectly, and the descriptions of moves are rather vague; you aren't mentioning things like lag nearly as much as you should, and the moves are pretty generic for a character(s?) with a lot of potential. Your ideas are pretty much getting ahead of your ability to convey them, which is actually a fairly positive thing to hear, as you need to improve mostly in execution rather than in concepts, rather than having to improve both of these things.

In addition, I agree with darth meanie about the playstyle; while you certainly know what playstyle is, you seem to be trying to pull most of it out of the set when you write the section, when you should be coming up with it when you start the set. That being said, you've done better here than some newcomers before you, so good job.

So basically, you're getting ahead of yourself, which isn't the most negative weak point there is. For your next set, I'd recommend working on execution and scaling back your ideas until your presentation gets up to the point where you can convey them. In the meantime, behind the presentation RTS Army was a decent read, so nice job.​

Mii​

Mii is another case of me not knowing how to interpret something and being unable to say much about it as a result. Theoretical programming, missing moves, etc.; it would be rather pointless of me to say anything since it was never really meant to be anything. Sorry of me not to say anything, but before I will you're going to have to do something. =/​

Mr. Luggs​

A fairly interesting set here. The subversion on ammo banks isn't done that directly, but it's done all the same and it makes for a solid read.

Unfortunately, Luggs shares a flaw with Dionysus; poor logic. Just like how the foe had no reason to be tempted by healing into Dionysus's vineyard since they'd instantly die from his ridiculous grab-game as a result, the foe has no reason not to interrupt Luggs's Waiter Ghost immediately. There's also no real reason not to give the player any visual cues; they'd hardly intrude on anything.

Beyond that he's still solid, but there's still some oddities in there; Slobber's doubled tripping rate would still be very low, Expulsion's triple FLUDD knockback sounds excessive for spacing at the least and ridiculous at the worst, decimals demand pluralized seconds (so it would be .5 seconds, not .5 second), to name a few. These are really just nitpicks though, and I have some minor things to compliment you for too; your writing style and organization is very good by now, for one.

So Luggs was certainly a fun read overall, even if I didn't enjoy him quite as much as, say, Warlord did; I just don't think you've surpassed Zinger or Stanley with this or Dionysus. That being said, those two sets set a very high bar, and I know how annoying it is to have your sets continually compared to supposedly better ones, so I'll conclude by saying that Luggs was solid overall.​

Antonidas​

*insert reference to lack of comments* Antonidas was certainly a good set overall. Despite having only one projectile, Antonidas manages to have plenty of flow as a camper and puts an interesting twist on the genre as an escape artist, as n88 put it. The minion stuff also managed to complement the camping stuff without overshadowing it, which is certainly something you should be commended for.

My main criticism is that one of the if not the most important move(s) in the entire set... was the USmash. As such an important move it should be in a more prominent position if you ask me, though I can't deny the utility of the preexisting specials. Even beyond that though, USmash isn't the most fitting input around as far as standards go; maybe FSmash or even BSmash would work better?

But that very much is nitpicky, and I genuinely enjoyed Antonidas. It's unusually feasible for a Warlord set, which isn't something I really care that much about but is still a positive thing to note, and while I didn't like it as much as Hannibal Bean or Hugo

Spoiler

or Dark Bowser, but I know how annoying it is to have sets compared to your frontrunner...

it's a nice treat and a positive addition to your expanding MYM8 roster. Good work, Warlord.​

Mr. Potato Head​

Okay, I was just about finished with my comments and then I notice this popped up. Then came Lakitu and Concrete Man and then Torkoal... okay, onto the comment...

Skeleton might have gotten to the concept first, but I know Potato Head existed before Skeleton and the concept is pulled off much better. It's perfectly fitting to Potato Head, and the concept ties together all of Potato Head's concepts. He's a flowing, playstyle-oriented yet versatile moveset, which is something I like to see.

On the other hand, the recovery isn't as good as you credit it for; as with Q, tacking a spike onto a recovery is rather pointless when invincibility frames are part of the point of edgehogging to begin with. Also, I don't really like moves like the Dash Attack that mostly exist to give Potato Head actual teams applications. And I might be missing something... but since when does Potato Head store Legos and cheese puffs inside his compartment?

I'm nitpicking again, though, and I'm just as impressed with Potato Head as Warlord and MT were; I'm particularly impressed by the places where you come up with move uses for both regular Potato Head and seperated-parts Potato Head without changing the moves themselves. It's a very good set, and... probably better than Stanley or Zinger, so I guess I can stop continually bringing them up (wary)​

Rex​

I hate to just jump on the bandwagon... but I didn't enjoy Rex that much. First off, catharsis works a lot better when you don't have to regulate the damage you take. Why not just have him gain power on his Smashes automatically by being attacked? It's more natural and avoids the problem it currently shares with Dionysus and Luggs - it misinterperets the opponent's motivations. Why would you be persuaded to attack Rex when he benefits from it? I also agree with Junahu that it's a little out of character for him to WANT to be hurt despite being timid and WANT to be in midair despite being afraid of heights.

On top of this, you're a little vague about how exactly damage powers up Rex's Smashes in terms of knockback. So his Down Smash can kill at 75% with enough damage added... great, just how much damage? It's a pretty meaningless thing to say without specifying how much. The Side Special/Dash Attack "mindgames" are rather doubtful as well; there's nothing the Dash Attack does that the Side Special doesn't do, meaning there's no reason for Rex not to use the Side Special, meaning the foe would never expect a Dash Attack.

And since I really don't have anything positive to say, I'll just wrap up the comment. If nothing else, catharsis is a very finicky playstyle concept (Scarmiglione is probably the only one who used it who I still enjoy) and Rex is hardly alone in not doing it so well. Bleh, it's not as if there's much Rex can do in the first place.​

Hamm​

Now that we're past that patch of negativity, here's Hamm! Like Warlord said, if you're REDUCTIVE Hamm doesn't sound that exciting, but in reality all the ways he has to play around with his block walls are enough to keep him a dynamic and enjoyable set. Even without being the most focused set ever, like Potato Head, he remains flowing and fun to read.

I do agree with the others that it's teetering towards the OoC side of the spectrum, and a little prop-heavy; but really, like Potato Head, Hamm is the sort of character for whom props are in-character. If I had a problem with anything, it's that knockdown pressure doesn't work as well when you just provide ways of knocking down; Hamm definitely has some ways of following up, but I'd prefer it if there were more.

I didn't enjoy as much as Potato Head or the upcoming Slinky, mostly because his concept... just isn't as likeable, and then there's the OoC concerns. Still, he's a solid set, if not the solidest.​

Slinky​

Item Tree's concept of a moving wall was good enough already, but making Slinky a malleable, trapping wall was really just a stroke of genius. I can't really see Slinky doing anything else, and maybe it's not perfectly in character for him to wrap around them and trap them, but what else can he do after he extends around them, really?

The detail on the mechanic isn't perfect, and I could run through a whole list of questions about it, but the concept is one that's both simple at its base and complex when you look at all its ramifications. Basically, I wouldn't sacrifice the readability you have right now.

Criticisms? I don't really have many. There is the detail part, but I went over that already. I'd definitely put Slinky on par with Potato Head.

And I'll shoehorn in a couple of generalized statements on the toys here. While Rex wasn't all that good, the others were enjoyable reads, Potato Head and Slinky in particular, and those matchups, regular and FFA, were something special. I'd also like to give a nod to how good the organization is; the headers in the main linkup area look wonderful, and the while the BBCode organizations of the main ones aren't that exciting, they're fitting and they have to be bland enough to resemble each other anyway. Excellent job, Kupa.​

Lakitu​

Lakitu... just feels rather rushed. I'll admit you've captured all the aspects of Lakitu, there's the Spinies, the lightning, the wind, and all that, and it had some decent ideas, so where does it go wrong?

Well, it goes wrong in that it doesn't really go anywhere. The Spiny electrification helps playstyle, but it's an interaction Lakitu's never used (I'd care less about this if Lakitu wasn't partially defined by simplicity like most Mario enemies) and while Lakitu has some cool ideas otherwise, they don't... really go anywhere. In spite of the cool ideas, a couple of moves seemed rather generic like the Forward and Up Tilts.

Basically, my comments are petering out as I get towards the end, Lakitu has a couple of cool concepts, but generic moves and minimal playstyle keep him from being all that much in my eyes. Still decent, but not as good as Concrete Man.​

Concrete Man​

Concrete Man keeps the rushed feel of Lakitu in a couple of places, but he's still the better set in my eyes. Stage manipulation isn't the freshest concept in the world, but the way Concrete Man mixes stunning into the mix by firing Concrete Shots at the foe keeps him sufficiently interesting.

Still, the amount of moves that were punches with XY interaction with concrete is a little excessive, and the aerials feel fairly brief and irrelevant. In addition, like in Lakitu, you sometimes use writing style to cover up some of the more generic moves, which I don't like.

It has some good ideas, but comes across as rushed in the end. Still, the ideas are still there, and it doesn't feel nearly as rushed as Lakitu, so fairly good job. It was entertaining if nothing else.​

Torkoal​

You know, n88, I'm impressed by your ability to make such an in-character Pokeset without actually having played Pokemon. White Smoke, Withdraw, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, Eruption (even if the latter two should be switched); you've hit all the major marks here, even if things like Fire Blast are a little strange in implementation. It has a pretty real playstyle too; while it didn't come together while I was reading it, you manage to pull it together impressively in the end, with all the ways of playing with Lava Plume and everything else. Or maybe you've played a Pokegame by now, in which case you can ignore what I just said...

Criticisms? I don't like Protect that much. The implementation is a little strange - I suppose always really envisioned Protect as the user bracing themselves for attack anyway, but Torkoal isn't really the type to summon a shiny glowing barrier anyway. I also don't like how it's nearly useless outside of its "soft move interaction", even if it's something he would still end up using a lot.

Your writing style is a little rambling in places, but you made a keep-running Dash Attack without referencing Junahu (clap) it's far improved, and the organization is obviously very good as an image set. On the other hand, I'd like to see you try out matchups at some point, but it's not an awfully big deal.

So how does it compare to Kamek and Haunter? I don't think I can tell you. Please keep making it hard for me to choose. (a)​

[/collapse]

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Sounds interesting. Personally, I'd love to see the point bonuses from Melee return. Perhaps there could be character-specific ones:

Mario- Pyromaniac: At least 25% of landed blows are fire based (Neutral B and fsmash)
1000 Points

Luigi- Second Banana: Steal at least two KOs in a match (that is, when a character is knocked offstage by a strong attack, attack them before they fly offstage and steal the KO).
1200 Points

Peach- Rumpadump: Connect with all of Peach's moves involving her rear (Peach Bomber, bair, dthrow and two others I can't remember) in a match.
500 Points

Bowser- Shellshocked: Outprioritize at least three moves using a shell-based move (Whirling Fortress, dsmash, bair, dair, etc).
1000 Points

Hopefully not all of them would have such unweildy names...

Sounds cool-ish but what would the points be for?

 

[n88]

Hopefully, we'll be allowed to break ALL of the squares with hammers next time (blasted intense Boss Battle mode ).

The europeans had that privilege.

Darn Europeans. Yeah, that Intense Boss Battles is kiling me. It's one of the three challenges I have left, and it's incredibly annoying.

I would love to see less predictable challenges in the next one, rather than Brawl's

Beat Target Test 1 w/10 characters
Beat Target Test 1 w/20 characters
Beat Target Test 1 w/All characters
Beat Traget Test in Under (Time)

Beat Target Test 2 w/10 characters
Beat Target Test 2 w/20 characters
etc.,etc.,etc.

Also, what do people think about the unlocking standards for characters in SSB4? In Brawl, you got characters at these numbers of Brawls:

5 (Ness)
10 (Marth)
22 (Luigi)
50 (Falco)
75 (Captain Tights)
100 (Lucario)
130 (Snake)
160 (ROB)
200 (GaW)
250 (Ganondorf)
300 (Sonic)
350 (Jigglypuff)
400 (Toon Link)
450 (Wolf)

Melee:

50 (Jigglypuff)
100 (Dr. mario)
200 (Pichu)
300 (Falco)
400 (Marth)
500 (Young Link)
600 (G-dorf)
700 (Mewtwo)
800 (Luigi)
900 (Roy)
1000 (GaW)


(All those numbers are off the top of my head, so they might be a tad off)

As you can see, Melee had a lot higher requirements than Brawl did. I think SSB4 will have numbers closer to Brawl's (Although the numbers will go higher due to more unlockable characters).

 

[Wizzerd]

Sounds cool-ish but what would the points be for?

They would be added to the point totals at the end of each level in Classic/All-Star Mode etc., just like in Melee.

EDIT: Hopefully unlocking characters is about as hard as Melee in SSB4, but it'll probably be similar to Brawl.

 

[.WC.]

Needs moar Board the Platforms.

Also I agree about the point system. Why they couldn't keep that but implement the SSB64 style together is beyond me.

 

[lordvaati]

EDIT: Hopefully unlocking characters is about as hard as Melee in SSB4, but it'll probably be similar to Brawl.

well, they need to find a middle ground. they shouldn't make it as easy as unlocking 85% of the cast by beating story mode....but not as hard as playing VS. mode for 20 hours.

 

[Mowrt620]

Achievements and stuff would be a way better way of getting trophies rather than spending 3 weeks on coin launcher...

 

[Paper Mario Master]

What would the 2nd/3rd requirements be for the characters though? Like in Brawl it was x# of Brawls or get in SSE or _________.

 

[Mowrt620]

OOH, I'VE GOT AN IDEA OUT OF NOWHERE
USE THE COINS THAT YOU EARN TO BUY TROPHYS AT A SHOP OR SOMETHING!!
yay verily

 

[Paper Mario Master]

OOH, I'VE GOT AN IDEA OUT OF NOWHERE
USE THE COINS THAT YOU EARN TO BUY TROPHYS AT A SHOP OR SOMETHING!!
yay verily

I agree there should be some kind of Smash Shop but you can only use certain coins. In Brawl I max the coins way too fast so it wouldn't be much of an accomplishment if it was really easy.

 

[Mowrt620]

Yeah, and the shopkeeper would change, depending on who you are

Mario, luigi- koopa

DK, Diddy- funky kong

Game and Watch- Chef
ect.

 

[StinkomanFan]

So you want SSB4 to be an RPG or something?

 

[Mowrt620]

No, but just a simple shop would be cool, like at the end of classic, or something
just for trophys and maybe stickers

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Yeah, and the shopkeeper would change, depending on who you are

Mario, luigi- koopa

DK, Diddy- funky kong

Game and Watch- Chef
ect.

OMG I had an EXACTLY like that!

except t'would be Toadsworth (maybe) for Mario since Koopas are enemies in Adventure Mode

and it would be in the Vault (if they keep it) and you could but Trophies and Stickers and even a couple of items and Alt. Costumes, but you would have to unlock in the shop and then buy it, but the items and costumes would not be cheap.

 

[Mowrt620]

OMG I had an EXACTLY like that!

except t'would be Toadsworth (maybe) for Mario since Koopas are enemies in Adventure Mode

If sora was in it would be a moogle, hopefully

Well, i dunno about costumes, but unlocking the shop is good
The trophies would be like, 850- 1200 maybe

 

[drag0nscythe]

No, but just a simple shop would be cool, like at the end of classic, or something
just for trophys and maybe stickers

Well, smash remembers which controller pushed the button to enter the menu (IE, player 2 doing some things in single player mode.)

So have the shop be selectable from the menu. Then have the clerk related to the players most used character.

If I used Wario the most in ssb4, Mona would man the shop.

 

[BBQTV]

they should change the coin capacity

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Well, smash remembers which controller pushed the button to enter the menu (IE, player 2 doing some things in single player mode.)

So have the shop be selectable from the menu. Then have the clerk related to the players most used character.

If I used Wario the most in ssb4, Mona would man the shop.

Or Syrup who ever gets in

and the costumes would just be for a few characters like Yoshi and Kirby could get their different colors

 

[.WC.]

You should be able to choose Morshu as a shop character.

 

[Mowrt620]

Well, I prefer the variety of shopkeepers tho, because it would be kool if each shop looked different based on the game (gAME AND watch would be a black and white shop, you see)

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

For the shop idea:

If Little Mac or another Punchout character: Doc Louis

If Animal Crosser: Tom Nook

If a Star fox character: Slippy Or Peppy for Team Starfox and Leon OR Panther for Wolf

Those are some ideas of mine.

 

[.WC.]

Who'd be the shopkeeper for Snake?

 

[Mowrt620]

For the shop idea:

If Little Mac or another Punchout character: Doc Louis

If Animal Crosser: Tom Nook

If a Star fox character: Slippy Or Peppy for Team Starfox and Leon OR Panther for Wolf

Those are some ideas of mine.

If it was peppy, you could buy a barrel roll

And it's not for individual characters, it's for individual games, no extra shop for wolf or anything

 

[BBQTV]

for the shop
sora=moogle
default=tom nook
wario=mona
dk=funky kong
mario characters=toad
sonic=chao
link characters=someone from their game i haven't played zelda
am i missing someone

 

[Paper Mario Master]

And it's not for individual characters, it's for individual games, no extra shop for wolf or anything

but Toon Link would get his own and so would Paper Mario if he got in and others like them...


Oo oo, Tayce T. for PM and Beetle for TL (maybe)

and Kriby could be a Waddle Dee and PKMN could be Nurse (idk if her name is Joy in the games) or the Mart guy...or someone more well known.

 

[Mowrt620]

but Toon Link would get his own and so would Paper Mario if he got in and others like them...


Oo oo, Tayce T. for PM and Beetle for TL (maybe)

Yeah, but in general, individual characters wouldn't get different shops, minus toon link and PM, like you said

But if theres only one rep, like F-Zero, than that counts as a group mostly.

But mario, luigi, peach, and bowser would share a shop, along with zelda, link, and ganon sharing a shop.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Yeah, but in general, individual characters wouldn't get different shops, minus toon link and PM, like you said

But if theres only one rep, like F-Zero, than that counts as a group mostly.

But mario, luigi, peach, and bowser would share a shop, along with zelda, link, and ganon sharing a shop.

What about FE?

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Yeah, but in general, individual characters wouldn't get different shops, minus toon link and PM, like you said

But if theres only one rep, like F-Zero, than that counts as a group mostly.

But mario, luigi, peach, and bowser would share a shop, along with zelda, link, and ganon.

Ya only the completely different universe type characters get their own from the others

FE could be Aimee I guess or someone who sells stuff...

too bad Sakurai doesn't read this, it's absolute gold for him or Nintendo....

 

[Mowrt620]

Who would F-Zero's shopkeeper be?

 

[.WC.]

Who would F-Zero's shopkeeper be?

Since Goroh and Black Shadow make no sense for this, I have no idea.

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

Possible Character Additions

Jill Valentine
Speed: High
Power: Low
Jump: Medium (2 jumps)

Normal-B (Machine Gun)
Burst-fires three bullets at time which do 4% each, no stun.

Side-B (Flash Grenade)
Similar to Snake's grenades. If it hits a player, it does 8% damage and it stuns them.

Down-B (Disappear)
Jill disappears and reappears at another part of the stage with a little end lag.

Up-B (High Jump)
Jill's third jump is higher than her other two jumps combined.

Final Smash - Reinforcements
Chris Redfield comes in with reinforcements to assist Jill for 20 seconds.

-----

Albert Wesker
Speed: Medium-Slow
Power: High
Jump: Low (2 jumps)

Normal-B (Magnum)
Mid-range weapon. Startup lag. 12% damage and stun.

Side-B (DashAttack)
Wesker is able to temporarily run at a superhuman speed, and if the attack hits the enemy, it's 10% damage.

Down-B (Counter)
Wesker can dodge almost any attack or projectile, and damage the enemy by 8%. End lag if it misses.

Up-B (Survival)
Tether recovery using an Ouroboros tentacle up his sleeve.

Final Smash: Ouroboros
Wesker transform into his final form for 15 seconds with instant kill priority.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Who would F-Zero's shopkeeper be?

A generic F-Zero car of course. JK. But really idk but Golden Sun could be Mia or the Inn/Shopkeeper. An by having shopkeepers we get more rep w/o putting in too many characters.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Jill Valentine
Speed: High
Power: Low
Jump: Medium (2 jumps)

Normal-B (Machine Gun)
Burst-fires three bullets at time which do 4% each, no stun.

Side-B (Flash Grenade)
Similar to Snake's grenades. If it hits a player, it does 8% damage and it stuns them.

Down-B (Disappear)
Jill disappears and reappears at another part of the stage with a little end lag.

Up-B (High Jump)
Jill's third jump is higher than her other two jumps combined.

Final Smash - Reinforcements
Chris Redfield comes in with reinforcements to assist Jill for 20 seconds.

-----

Albert Wesker
Speed: Medium-Slow
Power: High
Jump: Low (2 jumps)

Normal-B (Magnum)
Mid-range weapon. Startup lag. 12% damage and stun.

Side-B (DashAttack)
Wesker is able to temporarily run at a superhuman speed, and if the attack hits the enemy, it's 10% damage.

Down-B (Counter)
Wesker can dodge almost any attack or projectile, and damage the enemy by 8%. End lag if it misses.

Up-B (Survival)
Tether recovery using an Ouroboros tentacle up his sleeve.

Final Smash: Ouroboros
Wesker transform into his final form for 15 seconds with instant kill priority.

RE is a Capcom series, and Megaman would be a better choice.