[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Lord Viper]

If Pichu is a Pokeball and not Darkrai, I will cringed, lol.

 

[Jimnymebob]

I can see Giratina replacing Cresselia if Spear Pillar returns, due to Platinum.

Darkrai, Arceus, or Shaymin should have Pokeball appearances, with Shaymin possibly acting similarly to Mew, Celebi, and Jirachi.

 

[Lemonwater]

Yeah, Giratina should definitely replace Cresselia.

I heard Regigigas was going to be a Pokeball Pokemon but they decided not to have him =(

Should've kept Zapdos, Articuno, Raikou, and Scizor...

Add Shaymin, Darkrai, (Arceus would be insane), Steelix, some Eeveelutions perhaps. Or maybe just all of them. Alakazam and Gengar are popular too! Turn Staryu back into Starmie.

Remove friggin Munchlax >=/

 

[chaos11011]

Yeah, Giratina should definitely replace Cresselia.

I heard Regigigas was going to be a Pokeball Pokemon but they decided not to have him =(

Should've kept Zapdos, Articuno, Raikou, and Scizor...

Add Shaymin, Darkrai, (Arceus would be insane), Steelix, some Eeveelutions perhaps. Or maybe just all of them. Alakazam and Gengar are popular too! Turn Staryu back into Starmie.

Remove friggin Munchlax >=/

eevee will be cool once it comes out it will evolve by random (or not evolve) then attack (i will think of attacks later)

 

[Lemonwater]

Yeah, Eevee evolving randomly and attacking would be nice. Jolteon: Thunderbolt, Flareon: Fire Blast, Vaporeon: Bubblebeam, Umbreon: Moonlight, Espeon: Future Sight, Glaceon: Ice Beam, Leafeon: Leaf Blade

Something like that.

 

[justaway12]

maybe regular Eevee can use tackle

 

[Lord Viper]

Remove friggin Munchlax >=/

QFMFT

I hate that Pokemon worth every fiber of my being. I swear I draw that Pokemon just about every time I get a Pokeball at least once, I get Munchlax. Even on his update when they showed the Lip's magic wond, I new he was bad luck. T_T

 

[InvincibleAgent]

lol I hate munchlax.



I want mid-air grabbing.

 

[SmashChu]

I don't know about people loathing metal gear solid. Many of my friends absolutely love MGS4 and they like it due to the story and how it plays. It is surprisingly popular and people mainly just don't feel like advertising how much they love it unlike the mario, sonic, and megaman respect. I don't think Metal gear solid will die soon and i don't think snake will be cut.

edit: Don't forget konami begged for snake to be put in. They wanted snake in so I don't think the next smash will drop him. Konami won't change their representative.

Well, when I say people will loath it that by the time the next Smash Brothers game comes out Meta; Gear Solid will be seen as a crappy franchise.

Gaming is changing. The cinematic cycle (or era as I like to call it) is drawing to a close. MGS was successful due to this era. As it fades out, MGS will become very boring and unplayable. As we move more towards interface and social gaming (which MGS will not be) some franchises will go the way side, and others grow. From Nintendo, we have the emergence of Rhythm Heaven.

This article explains it well, but there is more at work. I will say that as time goes on, people will look down on Kojima and Metal Gear Solid.
http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=3&ed=1&p=1

 

[flyinfilipino]

Well, when I say people will loath it that by the time the next Smash Brothers game comes out Meta; Gear Solid will be seen as a crappy franchise.

Gaming is changing. The cinematic cycle (or era as I like to call it) is drawing to a close. MGS was successful due to this era. As it fades out, MGS will become very boring and unplayable. As we move more towards interface and social gaming (which MGS will not be) some franchises will go the way side, and others grow. From Nintendo, we have the emergence of Rhythm Heaven.

This article explains it well, but there is more at work. I will say that as time goes on, people will look down on Kojima and Metal Gear Solid.
http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=3&ed=1&p=1

Many franchises aren't the same as they used to be, like Sonic. But they remain popular because people remember what they used to be like.

From what I hear, most of the Metal Gear Solid games were pretty good, and I don't think people that loved them will gradually change their opinion so dramatically and hate them. Note that I said people that actually enjoyed the games. and not people that are trying to just keep track of trends.

 

[Mythic02]

Well, when I say people will loath it that by the time the next Smash Brothers game comes out Meta; Gear Solid will be seen as a crappy franchise.

Gaming is changing. The cinematic cycle (or era as I like to call it) is drawing to a close. MGS was successful due to this era. As it fades out, MGS will become very boring and unplayable. As we move more towards interface and social gaming (which MGS will not be) some franchises will go the way side, and others grow. From Nintendo, we have the emergence of Rhythm Heaven.

This article explains it well, but there is more at work. I will say that as time goes on, people will look down on Kojima and Metal Gear Solid.
http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=3&ed=1&p=1

Even though Metal gear is based off of a certain type of game right now it is possible for the producers to slowly change the aspect of the game. Just because the "era" is ending doesn't mean good series are. Some series can last forever, It just depends on how versatile the game is. Metal gear solid still has a while to go i think.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Metal Gear is loved for its in-depth gameplay along with its story. Even if the "cinematic era" ends, it won't mean the series will become hated, because it has more going for it than that.

 

[chansen]

If it had more than that going for it at this point in gaming, then why was it so heavily loaded with movie style content?

 

[SkylerOcon]

Well, when I say people will loath it that by the time the next Smash Brothers game comes out Meta; Gear Solid will be seen as a crappy franchise.

Gaming is changing. The cinematic cycle (or era as I like to call it) is drawing to a close. MGS was successful due to this era. As it fades out, MGS will become very boring and unplayable. As we move more towards interface and social gaming (which MGS will not be) some franchises will go the way side, and others grow. From Nintendo, we have the emergence of Rhythm Heaven.

This article explains it well, but there is more at work. I will say that as time goes on, people will look down on Kojima and Metal Gear Solid.
http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=3&ed=1&p=1

It's loved because of the depth and the message of it's story. That, and the gameplay is awesome. Though the type of games made may change, games that were made back in a certain era will never become truly 'bad'. After all, RPGs were able to survive through an era where games like Super Mario Brothers -- games with little story -- rules as kings.

 

[SmashChu]

I think you guys missed it, but I think it may be my fault because I left something vital out.

Many franchises aren't the same as they used to be, like Sonic. But they remain popular because people remember what they used to be like.

From what I hear, most of the Metal Gear Solid games were pretty good, and I don't think people that loved them will gradually change their opinion so dramatically and hate them. Note that I said people that actually enjoyed the games. and not people that are trying to just keep track of trends.

4) Artifact games are almost always loved by old-timers… those who have gone through previous cycles.

As times change, so do taste. Just because Metal Gear Solid is popular now does not mean it always will be. Some people will like the games of yesterday, but many franchises will go to the way side. Some games are so enthralled in an era that they will not stand the test of time (MGS and the FF from 7 to 13). When the taste of people changes, so must the games. A game like Tetris could never be released now a days since it lacks cinematic quality. The 2D Sonic games, despite being better games, are not the focus of Sega. MGS is a franchise that won't stand up because it is entirely based around cinematic. Some scorn it due to it's lack in the gameplay department.

It is also about the new market. The gamers of tomorrow will want interactivity, simple, yet fun, gameplay and social games. MGS is none of those. The hardest factor on MGS is the fact that the Expanded Market is built upon everything MGS is not. Snake will not be a popular figure in the future.

There will be some who still love Metal Gear Solid (those people will be on the PC BTW), but most will dislike it.

Even though Metal gear is based off of a certain type of game right now it is possible for the producers to slowly change the aspect of the game. Just because the "era" is ending doesn't mean good series are. Some series can last forever, It just depends on how versatile the game is. Metal gear solid still has a while to go i think.

Knowing Kojima, I doubt that. The point of the article was that some developers and games go to the way side despite being popular during their time. Kojima is in love with his own story. He would not be someone who would dump cinematic for motion controls and accessibility.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I think you guys missed it, but I think it may be my fault because I left something vital out.


4) Artifact games are almost always loved by old-timers… those who have gone through previous cycles.

As times change, so do taste. Just because Metal Gear Solid is popular now does not mean it always will be. Some people will like the games of yesterday, but many franchises will go to the way side. Some games are so enthralled in an era that they will not stand the test of time (MGS and the FF from 7 to 13). When the taste of people changes, so must the games. A game like Tetris could never be released now a days since it lacks cinematic quality. The 2D Sonic games, despite being better games, are not the focus of Sega. MGS is a franchise that won't stand up because it is entirely based around cinematic. Some scorn it due to it's lack in the gameplay department.

It is also about the new market. The gamers of tomorrow will want interactivity, simple, yet fun, gameplay and social games. MGS is none of those. The hardest factor on MGS is the fact that the Expanded Market is built upon everything MGS is not. Snake will not be a popular figure in the future.

There will be some who still love Metal Gear Solid (those people will be on the PC BTW), but most will dislike it.

Previous posters have said that the Metal Gear franchise has more going for it than just lengthy cutscenes, but I personally don't know whether or not to take their word for it. To my knowledge, the franchise isn't one of the most well-known by the general public, but you can't say that people will condemn it just because it doesn't fit with the upcoming trend. After all, that article said that The Legend of Zelda franchise doesn't really match up either, but do you foresee Link becoming an unpopular figure in the future, representative of an era of difficult, story-driven games?

 

[Kraryo]

Metal Gear Solid doesn't sound like a video game if it's mostly cutscenes. Good gameplay should have priority over a story any day. I'd rather go through platforming sections and beating up bad guys than having to watch through a boring movie.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Metal Gear Solid doesn't sound like a video game if it's mostly cutscenes. Good gameplay should have priority over a story any day. I'd rather go through platforming sections and beating up bad guys than having to watch through a boring movie.

If the entire game was just a boring movie, I don't think the franchise would be all that successful.

 

[SmashChu]

Previous posters have said that the Metal Gear franchise has more going for it than just lengthy cutscenes, but I personally don't know whether or not to take their word for it. To my knowledge, the franchise isn't one of the most well-known by the general public, but you can't say that people will condemn it just because it doesn't fit with the upcoming trend. After all, that article said that The Legend of Zelda franchise doesn't really match up either, but do you foresee Link becoming an unpopular figure in the future, representative of an era of difficult, story-driven games?

Yes I can. Tell me when was the last time people talked about M.U.L.E. or the Ultima series. They were popular back in their day, but now are gone.

This doesn’t mean cinema games will end. Wii’s library along with the other consoles will be full of Cinema Cycle artifacts. But socially oriented games and new interface games will win out in the end. I expect Sony’s market share to fall this generation and to fall even further next generation only if the company stubbornly sticks to the fading Cinema Cycle philosophies. The future, though, is still largely unwritten, and this industry is full of surprises…

Many claim MGS has more going for it, but in truth it is a cinematic game and it's focus is the cinematic style. Watch a MGS cut scene and you'll see what I mean. It is long winded elaboration for the sake of elaboration. It is driven more on gameplay then story.

People hated the cerebral PC games during the arcade era because they were too long. People hated the arcade like games during the cinematic cycle because they were too short and lacked production value. People will hate the cinematic type games in the interface era because they were too long winded and "boring."

From the arcade to the cinematic, many franchises changed, but some staggered. There was ~15 years between the last two 2d Mario games because 2D was out. Nintendo was able to rekindle it with New Super Mario Bros. It was simple and fun in quick burst so newer gamers liked it. Metroid also was forgot until it was turned into a cinematic game with the Prime series. Metroid Fusion was very linear for a reason.

I doubt Kojima will change MGS. He is very against the new way of gaming and his games show where his priorities are. I think MGS will be out M.U.L.E.

 

[Kraryo]

If the entire game was just a boring movie, I don't think the franchise would be all that successful.

Maybe the people buying Metal Gear games aren't gamers. Renting DVDs are cheaper than- wait a minute. Is Metal Gear Solid even worth $5 or more?

 

[SkylerOcon]

This doesn’t mean cinema games will end. Wii’s library along with the other consoles will be full of Cinema Cycle artifacts. But socially oriented games and new interface games will win out in the end. I expect Sony’s market share to fall this generation and to fall even further next generation only if the company stubbornly sticks to the fading Cinema Cycle philosophies. The future, though, is still largely unwritten, and this industry is full of surprises…

That's logical and all, as long as you play casually. I have yet to meet a hardcore gamer who would rather see the story that makes games have deeper value than them taken away. I see your point and all... but it's just not going to happen. It would be a step backwards. It's like while car buffs like old cars, car companies aren't going to take a step back and start building them again. They're going to keep on moving forwards.

Many claim MGS has more going for it, but in truth it is a cinematic game and it's focus is the cinematic style. Watch a MGS cut scene and you'll see what I mean. It is long winded elaboration for the sake of elaboration. It is driven more on gameplay then story.

Not really. Have you ever played the games?

EDIT:

Maybe the people buying Metal Gear games aren't gamers. Renting DVDs are cheaper than- wait a minute. Is Metal Gear Solid even worth $5 or more?

Learn what you're talking about before posting. MGS is one of the most loved video game series of all times, winning several awards. Nearly everybody who plays it is a gamer.

 

[WolfCypher]

Many claim MGS has more going for it, but in truth it is a cinematic game and it's focus is the cinematic style. Watch a MGS cut scene and you'll see what I mean. It is long winded elaboration for the sake of elaboration. It is driven more on gameplay then story.

No. You're thinking of Shenmue.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

The statement that Metal Gear is nothing more than a "long-winded movie" is ridiculous. I hate to use this argument, but people that are saying it can't have played it.

Yes, it's true that it has a more even cutscene to gameplay ratio than most games, but the cutscenes don't outnumber the gameplay, and the gameplay is actually very rich and varied.

 

[SmashChu]

That's logical and all, as long as you play casually. I have yet to meet a hardcore gamer who would rather see the story that makes games have deeper value than them taken away. I see your point and all... but it's just not going to happen. It would be a step backwards. It's like while car buffs like old cars, car companies aren't going to take a step back and start building them again. They're going to keep on moving forwards.

You are very wrong my friend. THE SO CALLED CASUAL GAMERS HATE CINEMATIC. This is one everyone gets wrong. The hardcore are more about graphics, story, and games as "art" (none of which would focus on gameplay). The hardcore are the ones who want cinematic. What "casuals" like are games that are only gameplay (like Wii Sports and Mario Kart).

It is obvious from your post you did not read the article and obviously do not knowe what you talking about. How do you expect to have a conversation when you don't know what is going on. You got the context all wrong, so go back and read it.

(PROTIP: The bolded is where you are dead wrong. The NES and Wii are both "step backwards." Go read.

 

[Ice!]

If the entire game was just a boring movie, I don't think the franchise would be all that successful.

Correction, the franchise is already that succesful.

 

[VirTu3]

lol I hate munchlax.



I want mid-air grabbing.

Mid-air grabbing will be to overpowerd you can throw people down as a spike and exploit so many things.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

You are very wrong my friend. THE SO CALLED CASUAL GAMERS HATE CINEMATIC. This is one everyone gets wrong. The hardcore are more about graphics, story, and games as "art" (none of which would focus on gameplay). The hardcore are the ones who want cinematic. What "casuals" like are games that are only gameplay (like Wii Sports and Mario Kart).

.

This is so true; I don't think necessarily "hardcore" gamers like storyline and what not, but a step above casual; casual gamers, the way i see it, are your friends who come over to play, say, Gears of War; they skip past the cutscenes and get straight to the shooting; they don't give a crap about the storylien.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Mid-air grabbing will be to overpowerd you can throw people down as a spike and exploit so many things.

Not to throw, just to pummel and hold until you land or fall... Unless they break your hold.

 

[SirKibble]

Not to throw, just to pummel and hold until you land or fall... Unless they break your hold.

Alternately, I've always thought each character should have a single Aerial Throw, which they automatically perform upon doing an Aerial Grab. Maybe some characters throw more downward, some upward, some at an angle, etc. But meh, that's just one idea. A strict Pummel system would also work.

 

[gantrain05]

the way i see it, is TRUE hardcore gamers care about every single aspect of the game, hardcore gamer doesn't mean ONLY competetive, it means they play the **** out of every aspect of every game they get their hands on. like me.

 

[Lord Viper]

Not to throw, just to pummel and hold until you land or fall... Unless they break your hold.

☆ That will create a lot of grabcides. It depends on how fast they can break out of the air grab, if it's too late, then grabcide's will be overused. ☆

Alternately, I've always thought each character should have a single Aerial Throw, which they automatically perform upon doing an Aerial Grab. Maybe some characters throw more downward, some upward, some at an angle, etc. But meh, that's just one idea. A strict Pummel system would also work.

☆ I was thinking this, that would be great for making a lot of combo's, and it's not a broken idea though of it.... unless your playing characters that can jump really high to the point that whne they do throw you up, you'll die because your that high with him/her. ☆

the way i see it, is TRUE hardcore gamers care about every single aspect of the game, hardcore gamer doesn't mean ONLY competetive, it means they play the **** out of every aspect of every game they get their hands on. like me.

☆ I'm like that to, everygame I own, I want to complete it 100%. Even on endless game's like Animal Crossing, I want to get everything. So yea, they should make singel player and mutiplayer action flawless on the next Smash Bros. ☆

 

[Lemonwater]

Mid-air grabbing will be to overpowerd you can throw people down as a spike and exploit so many things.

Lmao that made me laugh for some reason. I can imagine Ganondorf grabbing someone in the air and throwing them straight down XD

 

[Yukiwarashi]

There's something that bothers me about people who assume Lucario will be cut by a fifth gen Pokemon/people who think Mewtwo will replace him. WHY? It's pretty obvious to me that Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo in the first place, and my evidence is the SSE.

Looking at the SSE, you can tell which characters were there from the start because of their roles in the story (minus the Ice Climbers). At the very least, we know that Sonic was added in 2007 along with a few characters (Jigglypuff, Toon Link and Wolf). If Mewtwo's spot was so secured in the roster, he would've had a role in the SSE before the Great Maze. But he wasn't. The main Pokemon characters were Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer and Lucario. I honestly think Lucario will stay around, if only because of his unique ability with aura. Unless there's a new "aura" Pokemon in the fifth gen, aura has been established in the world of Smash Brothers as power increasing with damage. It's a waste to just throw a character like that away.

 

[Jimnymebob]

As you said, Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo. He would have been in either way.

Pichu was cut, Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer were confirmed, Lucario was added but not confirmed, Mewtwo and Jigglypuff were left to the side.
Sakurai chose Jigglypuff over Mewtwo, and Mewtwo was cut.

 

[Jman115]

I would like to see grabs either become more effective combo initiators, or effective ko moves like they were in 64. Very few characters in brawl can utilize grabs for kills.

And something to help improve tether grabs. Tink and Samus' Zair is nice, but their grabs are **** near useless. If you are going to punish a character for attempting a grab by giving them 8 centuries worth of end lag, then at least make it worth while to succeed.

 

[Phantom7]

Hmmm, what if SSB4 included a new backtilt? Wouldn't that be interesting?

+1 for these characters:
Ridley
Bowser Jr.
Krystal
BomberMan
Wolf Link
Sylux
Shadow
MegaMan
Geno
Isaac
Samurai Goroh
Zant
Deoxys
Mewtwo
Roy
Petey Piranha
Gray Fox

And +1 for new Melee-styled adventure mode with more cutscenes
+1 for no masterpieces or chronicle
-1 for midair grabs

And Ganon needs a new moveset. I think they should give him a sword this time, and these specails:
Standard: Final Blow - Ganon delivers a powerful blow with his sword using black magic
Side: Dark Blast - Ganon shoots energy balls from OoT and the opponent that can be charged for a short time
Up: Flame Choke - lol Flame choke as a better recovery would be nice
Down: Cape - Using his cape, Ganon reflects projectiles if timed correctly like in OoT.

 

[Jimnymebob]

I'll get this over with quickly...

Hmmm, what if SSB4 included a new backtilt? Wouldn't that be interesting?

+1 for these characters:
Ridley- yes
Bowser Jr.- yes
Krystal- no
BomberMan- no
Wolf Link- no
Sylux- no
Shadow- no
MegaMan- yes
Geno- not bothered
Isaac- yes
Samurai Goroh- yes
Zant- no
Deoxys- no
Mewtwo- yes
Roy- no (I like him, he just doesn't really deserve to come back)
Petey Piranha- no
Gray Fox- no

And +1 for new Melee-styled adventure mode with more cutscenes
+1 for no masterpieces or chronicle

There you go.

 

[justaway12]

Hmmm, what if SSB4 included a new backtilt? Wouldn't that be interesting?

+1 for these characters:
Ridley + 1
Bowser Jr. + 1
Krystal + 1
BomberMan + 1
Wolf Link
Sylux
Shadow
MegaMan +1
Geno +1
Isaac +1
Samurai Goroh +1
Zant
Deoxys
Mewtwo +1
Roy +1/2 (not sure about him so i gave him half a point)
Petey Piranha
Gray Fox

And +1 for new Melee-styled adventure mode with more cutscenes
+1 for no masterpieces or chronicle

Here you go.

 

[BKupa666]

ROCKKROC​

Rockkrocs are a powerful, rare species of Kremling that dwell in a dank mine in Donkey Kong Country. They only appear in one level, charging around like madmen in an attempt to trample intruders. Rockkrocs could not be defeated in any way, shape, or form; the Kongs had to settle for blinding the Rockkrocs with red light to immobilize them, before passing safely. Rockkrocs are the only Kremlings from the original game to not appear in a future installment. It's high time this one came out of hibernation.

STATISTICS​

Fall Speed: 10
Movement: 9
Weight: 8
Size: 7
Traction: 7
Jumps: 4
Aerial Movement: 2

Rockkroc's statistics make him out to be a stock heavyweight...all except for his top notch speed. True to his game, Rockkroc can get around extremely quickly, certainly absurdly fast for such a large character. In direct contrast to the slow heavyweights with fast attacks, Rockkroc's attacks are incredibly slow. In fact, he would be only slightly more viable than Ganondorf, but he possesses a technique to turn all his downsides around and into an incredible force to be reckoned with. Ironically, in order to make the most of this technique, Rockkroc must coax his foe into...attacking him? Read on to learn more about his intricacies.

SPECIALS​

Neutral Special - Rock-Hard Hideaway
Rockkroc curls up, reducing his hitbox to slightly larger than the size of a Party Ball with .1 second lag. He can remain like this for up to three seconds, before automatically rising up, with a second of ending lag. You can come out early by tapping B again, albeit with the same cooldown. Rockkroc's rocky skin prevents him from taking any damage in this form, but the awful ending lag more than makes up for this fact. What's important is that if a character tries attacking Rockkroc's coarse, rocky skin, they'll take 5% and get stunned for a second. If Rockkroc is attacked, he'll rise up out of the pose laglessly, ready to punish whoever was foolish enough to attack his impervious hide.

Because his attacks are so pitifully slow, Rockkroc will have to trick characters into attacking him in this form, forcing them to take stun and render them open to a devastating counterattack. Although Rockkroc curls up without much hesitation, if he whiffs it just once, he'll be as good as toast, due to his size and fast fall speed. Even with his fast dash, no player who is anywhere near competent will let the big lizard escape after getting up, especially when they have a Warlock Punch's worth of time with which to punish him. Fortunately for you, a Kremling of Rockkroc's notoriety specializes in devious tactics; he possesses no shortage of mindgames to hornswoggle characters into attacking his boulder form.

Side Special - Boulder Bowl
Rockkroc curls into his boulder pose in .4 second, before rolling forward at Mario's dash speed; after about .35 second of rolling, he reaches a top speed of Falcon's dash speed from momentum. He can turn around with excellent traction while in ball form, although he doesn't stop automatically at edges. Rockkroc also has access to a single jump a Ganondorf high while rolling, although this halves his momentum. He may roll for up to three seconds, although releasing the input cancels it with .5 second lag; after three seconds, Rockkroc lags for half a second. Characters hit by the rolling Rockkroc take 12%, but no knockback; instead, Rockkroc bowls right over them, squishing them flat for a second. He can turn around and roll over a squished foe again, dealing the move's damage again, but not stacking the victim's time as a pancake.

Oddly enough, Rockkroc has little priority in ball form; any attack dealing over 5% that hits him while he's rolling will send him rolling back the way he came. While the attacker takes no damage from striking a rolling Rockkroc, it does stun them for a second...after they finish their lag animation, that is. Plus, you didn't think Mario's F-Tilt would roll Rockkroc back as far as Bowser's F-Smash, did you? Rockkroc rolls back a set amount before he can turn around, depending on the strength of the attack he is hit with (about .3 second from a weak move, to .75 second from a strong move). Your opponent has to launch him back with a strong enough attack that he doesn't simply turn right back around a short distance away and bowl you over, but they also must hit him with a quick attack that won't cause them to lag long enough that Rockkroc can return and hit them.

This move isn't all positive for Rockkroc; if he's near a ledge, foes can roll him off it without fear of him rolling back. In this scenario, he'll likely fall to his doom, due to the set amount he rolls back continuing offstage. Rockkroc will never want to simply throw out this move; although he can pursue opponents who jump into the air, they can still spot-dodge it multiple times with ease, then punish him when he emerges. However, if he can roll into an opponent performing a telegraphed move that will not push him back too far, he can roll back and over the pancaked opponent repeatedly. While Neutral Special is best to use prior to KO moves, Side Special is superior for damage-racking...which Rockkroc -can- do, as long as he uses this move in an appropriate time and place.

Down Special - Subterranean Sleep
Rock Kroc takes half a second to bury himself into the ground, becoming a bulge of earth. Just sitting in this pose does not defend Rock Kroc at all; characters can attack this bulge to expose Rock Kroc, damaging him and giving him a second's worth of lag (even more punishment, if you couldn't guess). To combat this awful fate, Rock Kroc can spot dodge to exit his hibernation with significantly less lag. If a character walks into his bulge (in the earth), they'll suffer a Pitfall effect, but no one would actually be that stupid, of course.

Rock Kroc has two other inputs from this pose. By pressing B, he'll instantly launch himself up off the screen top in ball form at Sonic's dash speed, unable to be attacked, before dropping down onto his nearest opponent's current position at the same speed. If he lands this, the victim will take 18% and knockback that KOs around 90%. Of course, you'll want to stick to your more reliable KO moves, seeing as how it takes a long time to bury yourself, then launch yourself at characters. If characters attack Rock Kroc as he's dropping, they'll take a second of stun and 5%, as Rock Kroc immediately unfurls, ready to punish them. If not, he uncurls himself on the ground over a second, being safe to counterattack.

By pressing A, Rock Kroc tosses up a boulder that looks identical to him in ball form. Like Rockkroc's B input during hibernation, the rocks travel off the top blast zone and onto the opponent's current position, at Sonic's dash speed both ways; the only difference is that if these rocks are attacked, they are destroyed instantly, with no damage or stun as a result. Characters must try to attack (or flee from) these rocks, as if they try dodging, the lingering hitbox of the rock shattering as it lands may still damage them. Rockkroc can toss up one boulder every half second, forcing opponents to attack consecutive rocks in a row to protect themselves.

What's worse for his opponents is that he can toss himself up amid his barrage, looking identical to the boulders. If characters are set on attacking the fakes to break them and avoid the damage, they may attack Rock Kroc himself, stunning them and setting him up to tear them to shreds. Of course, Rock Kroc won't be able to send up any more boulders after he's left his hole himself; however, his hibernation hole remains onstage for ten seconds after he exits it with B. His opponents can never be certain that he isn't just holding off for a few seconds, rather than jumping at them himself.

To make this illusion more convincing, it may be beneficial to only send up boulders from time to time before just sitting on your arse underground, so characters think they have to break anything and everything you throw at them. Once you've planted this seed, you can come up yourself to blindside opponents with your actual stunning self. Just make sure they're not offstage trying to force you to suicide as you drop down; Rockkroc cannot cancel his plummet. However, it is extremely risky for characters to venture offstage to try and discern between Rockkroc and his boulders, as regular boulders can knock them to their doom easily as they hang around so close to the blast line.

Finally, you know how your hole stays onstage after you leave it? Well, Rockkroc can have up to three holes onstage at once. By spot-dodging out of his hole, Rockkroc can move to a new place and dig himself a new hole. With multiple holes, Rockkroc can roll while underground to move undetected to the next hole in line instantly, as long as they're on the same ground level. Although this doesn't help much with tossing rocks, considering they fall onto opponents from wherever Rockkroc is onstage, Rockkroc can move to a (relatively) unknown position onstage, without his opponent knowing where he is immediately and being able to follow. Great for a little extra defense for the big guy.

Up Special - Granite Getaway
Rockkroc curls up instantly and begins spinning in place in midair, defying gravity for up to three seconds (he can leave the move early by tapping B) and dealing 12% with low set knockback to whoever touches him. While spinning, Rockkroc cannot move, but can tap A in order to spin more rapidly in place. This causes small rocks to become unattached from Rockkroc's body and fly off around him in a circle. The rocks deal mass hits of 2-3%, trapping opponents in the debris and preventing them from trying to gimp Rockkroc. If Rockkroc is attacked, he becomes helpless and falls to his doom; although attacking his spinning boulder-shape stuns opponents for the usual second, they do not fall as they're stunned in midair, and can therefore recover after becoming mobile.

You may have noticed that this Up Special doesn't move Rockkroc at all, and you're right; it doesn't. However, Rockkroc's midair spinning cancels whatever aerial momentum he may have had from being launched, making him difficult to KO. In order to recover safely, Rockkroc can perform this move before jumping, surrounding himself with rocky sediment to scare off opponents before using his midair jump to recover. Don't get me wrong, Rockkroc is still awful at recovering; to do so safely, he'll have to spin and cancel his momentum fairly close to the stage, so his fall speed doesn't screw him as he jumps back. At the very least, he can deter enemy interference as he does so.

STANDARDS​

Jab -
Rockkroc curls up instantly and begins spinning in place in midair, defying gravity for up to three seconds (he can leave the move early by tapping B) and dealing 12% with low set knockback to whoever touches him. While spinning, Rockkroc cannot move, but can tap A in order to spin more rapidly in place. This causes small rocks to become unattached from Rockkroc's body and fly off around him in a circle. The rocks deal mass hits of 2-3%, trapping opponents in the debris and preventing them from trying to gimp Rockkroc. If Rockkroc is attacked, he becomes helpless and falls to his doom; although attacking his spinning boulder-shape stuns opponents for the usual second, they do not fall as they're stunned in midair, and can therefore recover after becoming mobile.

You may have noticed that this Up Special doesn't move Rockkroc at all, and you're right; it doesn't. However, Rockkroc's midair spinning cancels whatever aerial momentum he may have had from being launched, making him difficult to KO. In order to recover safely, Rockkroc can perform this move before jumping, surrounding himself with rocky sediment to scare off opponents before using his midair jump to recover. Don't get me wrong, Rockkroc is still awful at recovering; to do so safely, he'll have to spin and cancel his momentum fairly close to the stage, so his fall speed doesn't screw him as he jumps back. At the very least, he can deter enemy interference as he does so.

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[Lemonwater]

Mewtwo +1
Roy +9000
Krystal +1
Ridley +1

That is all. Everything else is a mere bonus.