[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[SmashChu]

Technically we have 39 right now, so actually you're right, 50 wouldn't be too much. But we probably won't be seeing a character select screen with 50 squares on it.

Another transformation character or two would see to that.

EDIT - Oh I wasn't offended. I know full well how much Coin Mode is generally despised.

Maybe that's part of it's charm.

Even that wouldn't be too far off.

Brawl added 15 new selectable characters, more then any game has added. It wouldn't be far fetched to say there could be 50 selectable characters. It's only a 15 character increase, and there aren't many they could cut. Sonic and Snake are the only ones who have much of a chance of doing so (I'll explain if need be).

 

[Agi]

Tell that to the good folks over on the Make Your Move thread.

QFT. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189523

Everyone, email this link to Nintendo. Tell them to ignore the Hannah Montana moveset.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Tell that to the good folks over on the Make Your Move thread.

but sadly, Sakurai doesn't think like you guys *looks at Ganon*

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

but sadly, Sakurai doesn't think like you guys *looks at Ganon*

He disrespected Mewtwo in Melee, so it would be no surprise that Ganondorf would eventually get treated that way too.

 

[Chief Mendez]

but sadly, Sakurai doesn't think like you guys *looks at Ganon*

Point is: it's not some amazing feat to think up unique movesets.

A bunch of kids on the internet are doing it for free. It's not that hard, and certainly not going to negatively impact the total number of characters. Sakurai's not going to just "run out of ideas" and stop making characters after 44.

 

[drag0nscythe]

After seeing all the moveset swaps that has been occurring (Long Chu)

No one in their right mind should have a problem with Alt Costumes anymore.

I am hoping for 49 select screen characters and a bunch of transformations to boot. (As shown in my flash earlier.)

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

^^Why wouldn't Sakurai make the next smash? He's done a great job with the series so far, so why wouldn't they let him continue?? Sure Brawl didn't meet everyone's expectations, but it was still a pretty good game. And are you forgetting who made Melee??? Or the first smash?

 

[~rh]

^^Why wouldn't Sakurai make the next smash? He's done a great job with the series so far, so why wouldn't they let him continue?? Sure Brawl didn't meet everyone's expectations, but it was still a pretty good game. And are you forgetting who made Melee??? Or the first smash?

He should make Smash more competitive next time around. I don't know why he switched to the casual market anyways.

 

[OmegaXXII]

He disrespected Mewtwo in Melee, so it would be no surprise that Ganondorf would eventually get treated that way too.

to my curiousity, how did Sakurai disrespect Mewtwo?, by not including him Brawl? (which I guess makes sense since he needed to be in)

A bunch of kids on the internet are doing it for free. It's not that hard, and certainly not going to negatively impact the total number of characters. Sakurai's not going to just "run out of ideas" and stop making characters after 44.

is not that he would "run out of ideas", it's that he too lazy of an *** to give character their own god*am moveset, seriously, Brawl (and Melee) would have been so much better that way, if he hadn't been lazy enough to do so.

 

[Chief Mendez]

is not that he would "run out of ideas", it's that he too lazy of an *** to give character their own god*am moveset, seriously, Brawl (and Melee) would have been so much better that way, if he hadn't been lazy enough to do so.

Alright, that's going just a bit far. Seriously.

Brawl's a tremendously large game. You try overseeing every single aspect of a game that size, while making sure that none of the many, many, many factions involved in it are offended or disrespected in any way.

Don't go calling the guy "lazy" just because you miss playing as Mewtwo or can't wavedash anymore. Jesus.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Alright, that's going just a bit far. Seriously.

Brawl's a tremendously large game. You try overseeing every single aspect of a game that size, while making sure that none of the many, many, many factions involved in it are offended or disrespected in any way.

Don't go calling the guy "lazy" just because you miss playing as Mewtwo or can't wavedash anymore. Jesus.

He gave Lucas, similar B moves to Ness.
Wolf and Falco have the Landmaster.
Ganondorf was still based on C. Falcon
Toon link.

When it came to characters, we got the shaft from him. I would call that lazy.

 

[Skyshroud]

He gave Lucas, similar B moves to Ness.
Wolf and Falco have the Landmaster.
Ganondorf was still based on C. Falcon
Toon link.

When it came to characters, we got the shaft from him. I would call that lazy.

Do you program games? Let's get something straight. It takes a massive amount of time to program characters. There is one point that can be argued, and that is that they should have taken some time away from specific things and put it in others. That is NOT being lazy. They spent as much time as they could programming the game. If you want to argue they should have spent less time on masterpieces and game modes, (I think they should have) that is fine. But don't call them lazy, since that is a severe stretch of the truth.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Alright, that's going just a bit far. Seriously.

Brawl's a tremendously large game. You try overseeing every single aspect of a game that size, while making sure that none of the many, many, many factions involved in it are offended or disrespected in any way.

Don't go calling the guy "lazy" just because you miss playing as Mewtwo or can't wavedash anymore. Jesus.

GOD!! *facepalms on desk*

who ever said I was looking at Brawl's overall aspect that huge?

I am simply referring to him as "lazy" simply because the guy did not give all characters a unique moveset such as Ganon & Falco for example, rather than spending impleming moves for each character , and due to time constraints, he just move swapped one character's moveset into someone else's, I never meant to mention it for reason behind Mewtwo's dissapearance, or removal of AT's sheesh....

 

[SkylerOcon]

Sakurai has done a good job on every smash game ever made so shut the hell up and get over it. Brawl isn't that bad, people are just angry because 'o noez I can't zero2death comboz nemoarz!11'. Brawl's a different game with different strategies, which don't revolve around a glitch.

/argument

 

[SirKibble]

Spoiler

Um... You can't facepalm on a desk... The point of a facepalm is the face...and the palm... Perhaps you refer to facedesking?

Remember how much Brawl was already delayed, guys? Remember how many times you probably said, "Just release the $#@% game already!"? It takes a lot longer to make a completely original moveset than to tweak an old one and strap it on a different character. Granted, it's definitely not preferrable, but it's what we got, and it's (most likely) not the fault of Sakurai or anybody else who worked on the game. Time is ever the enemy, and they saw it coming at them full force, so they braced for impact. How? Cloning.

 

[OmegaXXII]

^^ FYI, I am referring and pintpointing out stuff that could be done in the next Smash not Brawl so there.... :embarrass

 

[smashbot226]

Sakurai has done a good job on every smash game ever made so shut the hell up and get over it. Brawl isn't that bad, people are just angry because 'o noez I can't zero2death comboz nemoarz!11'. Brawl's a different game with different strategies, which don't revolve around a glitch.

/argument

Hard to believe you DEBATE.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Hard to believe you DEBATE.

I do debate. I just don't waste my time when people are complaining about something that makes no sense. Sakurai made the other Smash games and he made this one differently. People like to complain about how it's not exactly the same as the last one (hint: Wanting histun and for Brawl to be faster, is the exact same thing as saying 'I want Melee 2.0').
People need to get over it and acknowledge that we shouldn't be blaming Sakurai for everything wrong with Brawl, because it really is a top-notch game with next to no flaws except for a horrible storymode and a few luigified clones.

 

[Mith_]

Next game should include more bad guys imo.

Mewtwo, King K. Rool, Porky maybe? (don't know any other bad guys from the mother games lol), etc.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

1. Mewtwo isn't bad.

If garchomp gets in the next game we are ****ed the dude would rip everything and lucario would cry.

Also I hope Isaac comes back balanced this time, he's 2 l33t right now.

 

[SirKibble]

^^ FYI, I am referring and pintpointing out stuff that could be done in the next Smash not Brawl so there.... :embarrass

But you did say that both Brawl and Melee would've been better if Sakurai wasn't so lazy as to make clones. All I'm saying is it's not necessarily an issue of being lazy.

 

[SmashChu]

Point is: it's not some amazing feat to think up unique movesets.

A bunch of kids on the internet are doing it for free. It's not that hard, and certainly not going to negatively impact the total number of characters. Sakurai's not going to just "run out of ideas" and stop making characters after 44.

No, you certainly underestimate it.

Any monkey can make a moveset, but not a good one. A HECK of a lot goes into one. It needs, first, to be functional. To work. And, of course, not suck. The next is that it must fit the personality of the character. The moves need to be relevant, which many ones lack. It must truly embody the character. Look at Wario for example. His whole movement is based around quick and awkward movements, something that embodies the Warioware gamers. At the same time; however, they are moves that also show off his power.

It may seem easy, but it's not. Many people have made movesets and few have made good ones. The whole point is to make one that both works and embodies the character. Let's take Ganondorf. Everyone wants him to use a sword, but does he need too. He isn't one to use the Triforce of power to make him a better swordsman. He'd use it to make him strong. Thus, it was an easy fit to Capt Falcon especially when you think of the standard special. But now he has a sword and everyone wants him to change, but did anyone look at it. It's tiny. It would seem odd for him to use it. Yes, he used it in Twilight Princess, but just as often he used his arms and legs to attack. One could call his sword fighting brutish. So, he has a more brutish moveset. He does hjave the style Capt. Falcon has but instead uses shear strength because that's his personality. This is also why he has moves like his up strong and his forward special.

Many claim they can make movesets but few can make good ones. The same goes for rosters or anything else. Sakurai is very creative and sees the personalities of the characters. Most just try to tack on stuff from the game and call it a day. Only Sakurai could make a truly great moveset. Why else would people still be playing Smash?

EDIT:I may have missed the point of your post.

 

[Chief Mendez]

No, you certainly underestimate it.

...

EDIT:I may have missed the point of your post.

Well, the idea was to prove that there's no shortage of fresh ideas for moves, not so much that making a moveset would be so easy as checking the MYM threads, finding the winners, then copying and pasting the ideas to the game.

It's not like Sakurai's going to reach the point where he goes "man, I can't think of anything for a new moveset. I'd better just stop making characters, then", leaving the roster below 50 characters (which was how this argument got started)

Though if you were to look through some of those movesets, I think you might feel different about their quality as far as true-to-character and game balance goes.

 

[smashbot226]

No, you certainly underestimate it.

Any monkey can make a moveset, but not a good one. A HECK of a lot goes into one. It needs, first, to be functional. To work. And, of course, not suck. The next is that it must fit the personality of the character. The moves need to be relevant, which many ones lack. It must truly embody the character. Look at Wario for example. His whole movement is based around quick and awkward movements, something that embodies the Warioware gamers. At the same time; however, they are moves that also show off his power.

It may seem easy, but it's not. Many people have made movesets and few have made good ones. The whole point is to make one that both works and embodies the character. Let's take Ganondorf. Everyone wants him to use a sword, but does he need too.

YES, YOU DIP. He's used a weapon in some form or shape in EVERY Zelda game he's EVER been in. Mostly a SWORD and wielding MAGIC. And its not just that- why does he need to be a clone in the first place?

He isn't one to use the Triforce of power to make him a better swordsman. He'd use it to make him strong.

This is a silly reason. ZOMG LINK HAZ TRIF oUV COURAGE, SO HE CAN'T BE UBER STRONG ROFL.

Thus, it was an easy fit to Capt Falcon especially when you think of the standard special. But now he has a sword and everyone wants him to change, but did anyone look at it. It's tiny. It would seem odd for him to use it. Yes, he used it in Twilight Princess, but just as often he used his arms and legs to attack. One could call his sword fighting brutish. So, he has a more brutish moveset. He does hjave the style Capt. Falcon has but instead uses shear strength because that's his personality. This is also why he has moves like his up strong and his forward special.

Many claim they can make movesets but few can make good ones. The same goes for rosters or anything else. Sakurai is very creative and sees the personalities of the characters. Most just try to tack on stuff from the game and call it a day. Only Sakurai could make a truly great moveset. Why else would people still be playing Smash?

Oh, you mean the dude that leaves the creativity to others for HIM to claim, and copy-pastes movesets from Melee to Brawl, and give the Melee Vets either a cloned moveset or the same one they had in Melee, and then make poor laborers come up with the new character's movesets, and Sakurai makes Toon Link and Wolf, cloning them? Yeah, genius MY BUTT.

To bored now to argue.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, you certainly underestimate it.

Any monkey can make a moveset, but not a good one. A HECK of a lot goes into one. It needs, first, to be functional. To work. And, of course, not suck. The next is that it must fit the personality of the character. The moves need to be relevant, which many ones lack. It must truly embody the character. Look at Wario for example. His whole movement is based around quick and awkward movements, something that embodies the Warioware gamers. At the same time; however, they are moves that also show off his power.
I agree on Wario. However, some of the ones in Brawl don't truly embody their original characters. You've seen my whine about Samus using a blue laser and Ness and Lucas using moves that they've never used aside from Flash. As for personality, I don't think that that's been true for everyone. I haven't played MOTHER 3 yet, but it's not in Lucas' personality, which is somewhat of a mama's boy and not wanting to fight (at least I think), to be all that offensive. Why give him offensive PSI when it doesn't suit him? Don't give me that crap of him only having support and assisting PSI because he doesn't have to be pure PSI in the first place.

It may seem easy, but it's not. Many people have made movesets and few have made good ones. The whole point is to make one that both works and embodies the character. Let's take Ganondorf. Everyone wants him to use a sword, but does he need too. He isn't one to use the Triforce of power to make him a better swordsman. He'd use it to make him strong. Thus, it was an easy fit to Capt Falcon especially when you think of the standard special. But now he has a sword and everyone wants him to change, but did anyone look at it. It's tiny. It would seem odd for him to use it. Yes, he used it in Twilight Princess, but just as often he used his arms and legs to attack. One could call his sword fighting brutish. So, he has a more brutish moveset. He does hjave the style Capt. Falcon has but instead uses shear strength because that's his personality. This is also why he has moves like his up strong and his forward special.
The only reason he's a clone in the first place because he has a similar build to Captain Falcon. Besides, he doesn't have to use the sword in the first place. Chief Mendez has mentioned this a number of times and I agree with him: Trident of Power.
Many claim they can make movesets but few can make good ones. The same goes for rosters or anything else. Sakurai is very creative and sees the personalities of the characters. Most just try to tack on stuff from the game and call it a day. Only Sakurai could make a truly great moveset. Why else would people still be playing Smash?
As mentioned earlier, I doubt he came up with EVERYTHING in the game. I can't say for certain if Sakurai is that creative (he has his ups and downs) and I doubt he can see the personalities of the characters as much as genuine fans do of the characters.
EDIT:I may have missed the point of your post.

Comments in bold.

 

[metaXzero]

Sakurai has done a good job on every smash game ever made so shut the hell up and get over it. Brawl isn't that bad, people are just angry because 'o noez I can't zero2death comboz nemoarz!11'. Brawl's a different game with different strategies, which don't revolve around a glitch.

/argument

Define "Zero2death comboz" and "glitch". And you better have a correct definition.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

i Do Debate. I Just Don't Waste My Time When People Are Complaining About Something That Makes No Sense. Sakurai Made The Other Smash Games And He Made This One Differently. People Like To Complain About How It's Not Exactly The Same As The Last One (hint: Wanting Histun And For Brawl To Be Faster, Is The Exact Same Thing As Saying 'i Want Melee 2.0').
People Need To Get Over It And Acknowledge That We Shouldn't Be Blaming Sakurai For Everything Wrong With Brawl, Because It Really Is A Top-notch Game With Next To No Flaws Except For A Horrible Storymode And A Few Luigified Clones.

You Are My Hero!

 

[SmashChu]

I agree on Wario. However, some of the ones in Brawl don't truly embody their original characters. You've seen my whine about Samus using a blue laser and Ness and Lucas using moves that they've never used aside from Flash. As for personality, I don't think that that's been true for everyone. I haven't played MOTHER 3 yet, but it's not in Lucas' personality, which is somewhat of a mama's boy and not wanting to fight (at least I think), to be all that offensive. Why give him offensive PSI when it doesn't suit him? Don't give me that crap of him only having support and assisting PSI because he doesn't have to be pure PSI in the first place.

Again, it is personality as well as function (latter is important but I forgot it). It wouldn't be out of place for Samus to shot a megaton beam at anyone.

For Lucas and Ness it's a little different, but is a technique Sakurai has used to make function. The characters borrow moves from another one. It would make sence for Ness to use other psychic moves even if they were not his own in the game becuase he's psychic already. To the player, this will not seem out of place. Another example is Meta-Knight's up B is borrowed from Kirby.

 

[flyinfilipino]

OMG Sakurai made 4 clones, he's f*kin lazy....

*the other 35 characters look on*

 

[gantrain05]

OMG Sakurai made 4 clones, he's f*kin lazy....

*the other 35 characters look on*

i don't really see any of the characters in brawl as clones, i mean the closest characters to clones are probably toon link and link, and even then its not nearly as close as the cloning of young link and link of melee, fox/wolf/falco all have completely different ways of playing them, people seem to think because they have similar specials that they are clones, but they really aren't i mean, how else do you explain fox being so low on the tier list but falco is sittin in his throne up there in high tier?

 

[flyinfilipino]

From just an in-battle standpoint, all the characters are different. However, some people expected more of a difference for Toon Link and Ganondorf (honestly, Wolf and Falco don't have much else to pull from), so that's why they're bothered. I don't think Ganondorf has much of a chance to be significantly un-cloned now.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Spoiler

Um... You can't facepalm on a desk... The point of a facepalm is the face...and the palm... Perhaps you refer to facedesking?

Remember how much Brawl was already delayed, guys? Remember how many times you probably said, "Just release the $#@% game already!"? It takes a lot longer to make a completely original moveset than to tweak an old one and strap it on a different character. Granted, it's definitely not preferrable, but it's what we got, and it's (most likely) not the fault of Sakurai or anybody else who worked on the game. Time is ever the enemy, and they saw it coming at them full force, so they braced for impact. How? Cloning.

I wanted him to delay the game another year.
I have patience. I can wait.

and yes, not spending the time in making each character as original as possible is lazy.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I wanted him to delay the game another year.
I have patience. I can wait.

and yes, not spending the time in making each character as original as possible is lazy.

You just agreed that the clones were likely a result of time constraints. I can say that creating 39 different characters is not lazy.

 

[Big-Cat]

Again, it is personality as well as function (latter is important but I forgot it). It wouldn't be out of place for Samus to shot a megaton beam at anyone.

For Lucas and Ness it's a little different, but is a technique Sakurai has used to make function. The characters borrow moves from another one. It would make sence for Ness to use other psychic moves even if they were not his own in the game becuase he's psychic already. To the player, this will not seem out of place. Another example is Meta-Knight's up B is borrowed from Kirby.

A megaton beam isn't out of place. However, Sakurai gave her a laser (I know they're technically the same, but still) that makes her suit fall off. something that NEVER happens in the original games.

While it makes sense that they're psychics and may learn moves from they're partners, they shouldn't have to since they have they're own stuff. I've mentioned Lucas' stuff. Ness can use PK Flash, Rockin', Teleport, and Paralysis or Hypnosis. They just have to get creative on their function.

If you wanted to get the other PSI represented, Paula and Poo Assist Trophies would've done the job.

I can't say anything on Meta Knight because I don't know if that's true or not.

 

[Pieman0920]

Most of MK's moves are things he has used before, things that were borrowed from Kirby (mostly sword moves, but the Up B is indeed from the Wing ability) and then some made up stuff. Of course, MK never had enough moves to fully fill out everything in the first place, so you really can't complain. Outside of the sword wave ability (and I guess those spike balls from the chase sqeuence in SS) I can't really think of anything he's missing.

 

[Big-Cat]

Most of MK's moves are things he has used before, things that were borrowed from Kirby (mostly sword moves, but the Up B is indeed from the Wing ability) and then some made up stuff. Of course, MK never had enough moves to fully fill out everything in the first place, so you really can't complain. Outside of the sword wave ability (and I guess those spike balls from the chase sqeuence in SS) I can't really think of anything he's missing.

Exactly. It's one thing for characters like him and Zelda to borrow stuff since the didn't have enough in the first place. However, Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, and Ganondorf have stuff to derive from in the first place, AND they can be functional tambien.

 

[SirKibble]

Most of MK's moves are things he has used before, things that were borrowed from Kirby (mostly sword moves, but the Up B is indeed from the Wing ability) and then some made up stuff. Of course, MK never had enough moves to fully fill out everything in the first place, so you really can't complain. Outside of the sword wave ability (and I guess those spike balls from the chase sqeuence in SS) I can't really think of anything he's missing.

I don't know about too many of his moves being borrowed from Kirby. Actually, the only thing I can think of that's completely borrowed from Kirby is the Shuttle Loop that Wing Kirby normally used. Other than that, everything's either made up for Smash, or something Meta Knight has actually done, although there have been some tweaks (like with the Mach Tornado). The only other move I can think that you would argue is the N-Air, which is something Meta Knight was able to do anyway when you used him in Nightmare In Dream Land.

Maybe I'm missing it all, but... What else did he borrow from Kirby??

 

[SmashChu]

Exactly. It's one thing for characters like him and Zelda to borrow stuff since the didn't have enough in the first place. However, Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, and Ganondorf have stuff to derive from in the first place, AND they can be functional tambien.

Ness and Lucas have NO attack PSI. Besides PSI Special (and Love for Lucas I guess which is his Up Smash) they only have defence and other. How can you draw a moveset from that?

Also, Toon Link is simple: He's Link. It only makes sence that he has the same moveset. I've explained Ganondorf numerous times.

 

[SmashChu]

i don't really see any of the characters in brawl as clones, i mean the closest characters to clones are probably toon link and link, and even then its not nearly as close as the cloning of young link and link of melee, fox/wolf/falco all have completely different ways of playing them, people seem to think because they have similar specials that they are clones, but they really aren't i mean, how else do you explain fox being so low on the tier list but falco is sittin in his throne up there in high tier?

Thank you.

A megaton beam isn't out of place. However, Sakurai gave her a laser (I know they're technically the same, but still) that makes her suit fall off. something that NEVER happens in the original games.

Not everything has to be from the games. They can be new things, or things that would fit the character.

While it makes sense that they're psychics and may learn moves from they're partners, they shouldn't have to since they have they're own stuff. I've mentioned Lucas' stuff. Ness can use PK Flash, Rockin', Teleport, and Paralysis or Hypnosis. They just have to get creative on their function.

Again, it goes back to function. How exactly would Paralysis or Hypnosis help? Would they be balanced. Could they complement the character's playstyle. To do they have enough use.

If you listen to developer commentary, you'd find a lot of these things that seem simple aren't. It takes a lot of work and input to make the game work. Ness having Paula's moves made sence as it gave him some offense.

Also, to those complaining about Sakurai not being creative or lazy, look at what we have in the game. Who would have though of Olimar's Final Snmash. Wario using his bike as a special. Heck, Pokemon Trainer in general. He has done a lot already. Heck, he even put creativity into characters like Toon Link. Just pause the game and look at him and you'll see.

 

[Big-Cat]

Ness and Lucas have NO attack PSI. Besides PSI Special (and Love for Lucas I guess which is his Up Smash) they only have defence and other. How can you draw a moveset from that?

Also, Toon Link is simple: He's Link. It only makes sence that he has the same moveset. I've explained Ganondorf numerous times.

Simple, by thinking outside the box. Here's an updated version of a special moveset for both of them.

Ness:

B: PK Flash
Same as before, but it should explode when time is up like in Melee

Side B: PK Rockin'
Same as the PK Fire Ness has used this whole time. Except, Ness shoots a ball of a bunch of shapes, but it still goes down in a pillar.

Down B: PK Paralysis
Works exactly like Zamus' Down Smash A except it the range is a Ness-width longer.

Up B: PK Teleport
Ness opens a worm hole underneath and disappears. Then, a worm hole opens facing the direction chosen by the player and Ness flies out of it. Anyone hit by Ness while he flies out will suffer an attack like PK Thunder 2.

Final Smash: PK Rockin' Omega
Ness makes a guitar out of PSI and starts playing either Pollyanna, Bein' Friends, Pokey Means Business, or the Hippie Battle Theme (which one doesn't matter, it's an easter egg). While playing, various shapes fly out of the guitar and hit anyone close enough.

Lucas:

B: Salt Water Gun
Takes out a water gun that is automatically charged and shoots it for knockback and some damage. Note, the gun recharges on its own over time.

Side B: PK Love
Shoots the attack like he does PK Fire and has the same knockback.

Down B: PK Counter
Lucas casts a protective barrier around him that acts like a mini Franklin Badge. Lucas can only have three barriers. at a time. Like R.O.B.'s Up B, this takes a while to charge completely after use.

Up B: Hinawa's Pigeons
The spirit of Lucas' mother takes the form of three pigeons that hold onto Lucas. These pigeons will pick Lucas up and Lucas can move side to side while rising.

Final Smash: PK Love Omega
Lucas creates a giant ball of PK Love and tosses it out in front of him. The attack can go through any stage and inflicts enough damage to kill.

See not too hard.

As for Toon Link, he may still be Link, but he is only ONE of the Links in the Zelda series. Therefore, he can still be his own character.