OFFICIAL Sonic thread. (Keep it Brawl related, or suffer Xsy's/Xii's wrath!)

[memphischains]

Dear EL,

you should lurk around here. sonic can set up situations for kills without much difficulty.

your love,
memphis

 

[Kinzer]

It's really Sonic's lack of options of overall and the fact that he can't create situations where he can get easy kills.

If Sonic had slightly better tilts and one decent kill move he would be high tier easy.

It's all good though. Sonic is Steak Tier, we just need to learn to player.

By the way EL, how ya been doing lately?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Memphis: No. No he can't.

Why? Because his set-ups are slow and his kill moves are obvious and they telegraph themselves.

None of his kill moves are particularly fast. Maybe Uair, but he doesn't have set-ups with that, where he isn't required to overly commit and if they dodge then he is in a bad spot.

Now take oh say...uhhhhhhh G&W. Well same deal really. Slow *** kill moves AND lacks the speed to set-up for kills. But, since his kill moves are safe on block he can just spam them when he wants to take someone out. Sonic doesn't have this luxury.

I don't need to lurk on a character board to know that Sonic's set-ups are lacking.

Looking at his movelist would tell me that.

You sure are silly.

 

[memphischains]

Memphis: No. No he can't.

Why? Because his set-ups are slow and his kill moves are obvious and they telegraph themselves.

None of his kill moves are particularly fast. Maybe Uair, but he doesn't have set-ups with that, where he isn't required to overly commit and if they dodge then he is in a bad spot.

Now take oh say...uhhhhhhh G&W. Well same deal really. Slow *** kill moves AND lacks the speed to set-up for kills. But, since his kill moves are safe on block he can just spam them when he wants to take someone out. Sonic doesn't have this luxury.

I don't need to lurk on a character board to know that Sonic's set-ups are lacking.

Looking at his movelist would tell me that.

You sure are silly.

lies, lies and slander. he has plenty of set up tools. the big ones are from his spindash, they they don't become obvious if you're playing him correctly.

you can foot stool out of side and down b, which leads to almost everything. once you understand your opponents roll characteristics, then you have the match.

jab locks, other spindash > uair/fair/biar options

the bair is "slow" enough to get them when they airdodge for a uair. this all kinda relates to tenki's "learn to player" post.

his grabs are so insane too.
i bet you had no idea you could chain back throws. you can tech chase downthrow all day.
upthrow is a set up of its own.

your game and watch argument doesnt make any sense, because no sonic would play like that because he doesn't have that luxury to spam a c stick.

i could argue his IASA frames in his dsmash, his studderstep options, dac, but it doesn't seem like you would listen to that.

its more about thought than dial-a-combo

any sonic main can back me on this

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic does not telegraph his attacks...sure some like Sonic's Dair when he kicks back his leg is a sign, but no...

Is that good Memphis?

 

[Napilopez]

I gotta argue that if your don't have sufficient knowledge of a character, or lurk the boards like memphis is suggesting, then you can't know a character's "set-ups" Looking at a movelist tells you nothing about setups. They tell you about how his moves work, but not at all about how they are setup. We have several tricksies that outsiders just don't know.

However, I do sorta agree with you, at least on some points. Let ftilt/dtilt come out on frame 3 with tiny ending lag, and give us an fsmash that kills as effectively as Fox's usmash and we'd have a party.

We just work around his killing problems pretty well, but most every char can do that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Memphis I think you misunderstand.

When I say set-up I mean a situation in which it is basically impossible for your opponent to avoid taking a hit and even if they don't get hit your character will still be safe. Sonic doesn't have stuff like that. Sonic can't create a situation in which he can throw out a kill move and not be vulnerable.

He can create favorable situations, but none really where he can go for a kill without overly committing.

Committing in fighting game lingo means putting yourself in a more vulnerable position when you do an action. This is due to Sonic's slower kill moves and the fact that he has to rely so much on reading his opponent well to get kills.

The G&W comparison was to show that he is in a similar position as Sonic is. But G&W doesn't have to commit as much since his moves are safe. He can spam them.

Understand now?

Anyway, it's pointless to argue with me. Since I'm not stating my opinions. I'm literally telling you what Sonic's problem is. This is just observation here.

Sonic really doesn't have many problems. Just like two or three glaring ones that hurt him. And I talked about one of them.

 

[memphischains]

oh ohhhhhh must have been the beer goggles. >.<

i has SOME stuff like that. jab lock is an solid argument.
low % dtilt combos
even weird throw situations

but yeah. i get what you are trying to say. you are more right than i am anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic certainly has combos and tricksies. But I find that Brawl is the quintessence of basic figting game principles.

It all comes down to safe options that are reliable and that you can form effective strategies around. So combos and cool AT's aren't really gonna do it.

MK has like...no great AT's other then IDC which is stupid and banned because it's so stupid. He is the most basic of the basic and he RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPES!!!!

*shrug

Food for thought.

 

[memphischains]

its half of why he *****.

imo, some of the tricks in smash are there on purpose.
MK has like, -2, and *****.

everyone else, +2938472938648273648273654 (dramatization)

but you get it. i think
i hope

steak

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sonic certainly has combos and tricksies. But I find that Brawl is the quintessence of basic figting game principles.

Because tripping is just so pro, right?

LMAO

Sorry. It had to be said.

Smooth Criminal

 

[memphischains]

where did you come from

 

[Smooth Criminal]

From a galaxy far, far away from Emblem Lord and his so-called "cynicism."

>__> And plus I was an original member of that club-thing that SiegK started like moons ago. Of course we can't talk about the club thing anymore, because it's not Brawl related. But you know. Yeah.

Steak and Up-B tricks are kinda neat?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kinzer]

His mommy?

 

[memphischains]

inui is gay

thats brawl related right

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic counters him, so yeah.

 

[Inui]

I destroy Sonics now because I played Blue a lot. >_>;

 

[SiegK]

Haha, whats up Smooth Criminal? Its been a while.

Sonic's my fav, but I'm not sure if I'm better with him or Kirby. Think its Kirby though. =O

 

[Espy Rose]

I destroy Sonics now because I played Blue a lot. >_>;

Wrong.

You can destroy Blue all you want.
Sonic > You.

Spoiler

Steak>>>>=Sonic

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I destroy Sonics now because I played Blue a lot. >_>;

Who the **** let you in here? :3

No tier whores allowed!

And Sonic still counters you. You just learned to deal with a bad matchup. =P

 

[Espy Rose]

Who the **** let you in here? :3

Steak tiers only!

And Sonic still counters you. You just learned to deal with Blue. =P

Fix'd for great justice, and delicious steaks.

 

[Tenki]

And Sonic still counters you. You just learned to deal with a bad matchup. =P

LOL

Spoiler

10learndtoplayers

 

[memphischains]

I destroy Sonics now because I played Blue a lot. >_>;

that **** in the podcast was pretty funny

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

On a slightly more serious note...

What's the best way to recover? And when should I use Homing attack to recover? I'm not too keen on it since just about anything can hit you out of it but it's been a lifesaver in some cases so I was wondering when it would be best to use it

 

[infomon]

What's the best way to recover?

That's a tricky question. I'm working on a how-to-avoid-killzones-with-Sonic video atm (sort of a follow up to [this], but just for Sonic). But that's not really what you're asking about, I think.

I use HA when I won't mind either outcome (locked-on or not), or as a last resort when I'm otherwise doomed. My opponents don't know how to deal with it properly, so I get away with a lot that shouldn't work. :/

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I see...

*watches video* Ah I was right about recovering with Peach! I've been using Uair --> 2nd Jump as a form of suriving longer for a very long time indeed and your vid confirms that it works ^^ Thankyou very much indeed...great video, very informative

Should I use Side B if my 2nd jump has already been used to recover from something like shown in the video? I accidently kill myself with Side B when I forget I've used my 2nd jump/Sonic's spindashes go silly when you land on the ground so I'm curious as to whether it'd still be a decent recovery method...Sonic looks quite vunerable from using his Side B. Someone fast could easily intercept with something

 

[infomon]

Thanks, about the vid!

Unfortunately, side-B is still the best option if your 2nd jump is gone... at least, "best" at avoiding the side killzone. What other choice do you have? HA might work, if you actually think it might lock on to something lol... otherwise, it might actually be worse than just cancelling hitstun with an aerial, and leaning towards the stage. Sonic's failaerial acceleration may keep you a few percent away from death...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

So fair is best for momentum canceling then?

 

[Chis]

Fast falled Fair I think.

Also this thread should give you some ideas about recoveries: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194882

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Fast falled Fair I think.

Also this thread should give you some ideas about recoveries: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194882

Well typically you wouldn't fast fall on a horizontal send. That's more for like Marth's usmash or Luigi's up B

 

[infomon]

If I'm reading hotgarbage's super-secret framedata correctly, Uair is actually the aerial which ends the fastest.

So Uair > side-B is often the best option to avoid the side killzone.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Alrighty then.

So fast fall Uair for upwards sends?

 

[darkspatan117]

Memphis I think you misunderstand.

When I say set-up I mean a situation in which it is basically impossible for your opponent to avoid taking a hit and even if they don't get hit your character will still be safe. Sonic doesn't have stuff like that. Sonic can't create a situation in which he can throw out a kill move and not be vulnerable.

He can create favorable situations, but none really where he can go for a kill without overly committing.

Committing in fighting game lingo means putting yourself in a more vulnerable position when you do an action. This is due to Sonic's slower kill moves and the fact that he has to rely so much on reading his opponent well to get kills.

The G&W comparison was to show that he is in a similar position as Sonic is. But G&W doesn't have to commit as much since his moves are safe. He can spam them.

Understand now?

Anyway, it's pointless to argue with me. Since I'm not stating my opinions. I'm literally telling you what Sonic's problem is. This is just observation here.

Sonic really doesn't have many problems. Just like two or three glaring ones that hurt him. And I talked about one of them.

Doesn't TL have the same problem with his kill move ...

 

[infomon]

So fast fall Uair for upwards sends?

Yep. I mean, if you're going straight upwards then you can use the other aerials (except Dair, it's bizarre), but you might as well Uair.

If you know the timing well, then hold down on the control stick and C-stick the Uair, for great justice. I think there's a bit of a buffer window, so you can do that input a little earlier than Sonic is able and it'll work out okay. Alternatively, just mash Uair and as soon as it starts, jam down on the control stick.

 

[lime_backwards]

Well, I've come to a decision and changed my main over to Captain Falcon... so now, I think I'll be picking Sonic back up as a secondary as well as Link.

I just wasn't having any fun with any other characters, and I always have fun with those three.

But yeah, I need to get some matches in with Sonic.... I haven't used the guy in a while.

 

[Tenki]

If I'm reading hotgarbage's super-secret framedata correctly, Uair is actually the aerial which ends the fastest.

So Uair > side-B is often the best option to avoid the side killzone.

That was for MK you silly.

Sonic's F-air is definitely the earliest-ending aerial in the arsenal.

Sonic's U-air has the least 'dead time' after the hitbox though.

 

[Camalange]

lololol you use the very bottom, at least we use 5th from the bottom!

jk its kewl

When you say get some matches in with Sonic, do you mean play OTHER Sonics, or play more with YOUR Sonic? I was somewhat confused by that statement.

@Everyone else, I usually use Fair and that works for me, but I'll give fastfall Uair a try. I would never think to try an UP aerial to get AWAY from the blastzones, especially if being sent up...unless I'm reading incorrectly?

EDIT: Is Tenki saying you are all wrong? HAH!

 

[Jim Morrison]

Honestly, we need Sonic frame data...

 

[infomon]

LOLOL I fail so hard right now

'kay, I'll trust Tenki, Fair it is.... altho Uair feeeeels faster to me... Fair is easier to input anyway.

(FF) Fair > side-B. Maybe even spinshot. I can't work on my vid until tonight mebbe >.>

 

[thecatinthehat]

I just pulled something really really sexy.

b-throw > spinshot > footstool> FF bair.